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One of the car mags tested it this month. They actually liked it, and preferred the stick shift. It was compared to the original Cherokee, and was surprisingly close in room, performance, etc.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
OTOH, for things a Subaru would handle, it's loads better because it's a lot less money and has more interior space for the money. It's a very good vehicle if you get it as a basic 4x4 box.
A friend of mine who bought a 2006 550i with the SMG transmission, it was a serious mistake. He took it to Summit Point Raceway for a "Day at the Track" event and found it far less fun than his former 330i. Even though the 550i is considerably more powerful and with the sport package, better handling, the SMG transmission was a "pain in the [non-permissible content removed]" relative to hesitation on downshifts and inablility to directly control the clutch. Even his wife, who was pregnant at the time he bought it, says the should have gotten the 6-speed manual.
My friend even used the analogy that I occasionally have here. That, in terms of technology, the BMW SMG is to the 6-speed manual what polyester is to wool and silk. It's "advanced", but definitely not better.
DCT will be available before long on the new V8 powered M3 and be spread throughout the line-up.
It is a two pedal system like the VW/Audi DSG.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Yup, just like every other good Automatic transmission. :P
Best Regards,
Shipo
Polyester suit and vinyl sided house guy, are you? I'll stick with "primitive" wool suits and a stone and stucco house, thanks.
And you might want to try selling your dummy pedal to the jokers who think manually shifting a slushbox is "sporty".
Not sure about a manual transmission being "cool", but definitely drive enhancing and just plain better.
That's from my experience with just about every conceivible alternative that the techno-geek engineers have come up with. Including the two cars currently in my garage, an 2003 M5 and a 2007 911 Turbo as well as the 360/430 Ferrari's. Having driven the "faster" 911 Turbo Tiptronic and found the sluggish downshifting and unexpected upshifting frustrating at best, I couldn't be happier with the direct control and positive engagement of the 6-speed manual.
For anyone who doesn't know how to properly drive a stick, it may not be much of an enhancement for them. But if that's the case, go buy an automatic Camry and play Game Boy from the comfort of your cordovan vinyl Laz-Y-Boy. But don't try to define "drive enhancing" for those of us that actually can chew gum and walk at the same time. :shades:
The fact is that I buy cars for ME, and those cars are tailored for MY enjoyment. I couldn't give two hoots what someone else thinks about my choices or what some poseur thinks about how I configured the car come resale time.
Best Regards,
Shipo
As opposed to a shift over-ride like you get in most manu-matics today. You can do the same thing in a Grand Prix or even an old Volvo 240 - or any car with a straight row shifter. Look - 2nd gear. (presses lever forward to third...) third gear! Look! It's a manual transmission!
:P
Umm...I drive a Mazda. I know what drive-enhancing is better than almost anyone. :shades:
Best Regards,
Shipo
The defining litmus test, though, is whether it has a torque converter or not. And, yes, you can over-rev, burn the clutch, and do all the other stupid things with a SMT that you can with a manual. But you can shift it 4-5 times faster. This is why they are not available to the public, because you can also damage the clutch 4-5 times faster. A SMT tends to have a lifespan on the clutch in racing that is measured in weeks or months.
Most are crippled, though, to keep consumers from destroying them like rac car drivers are wont to do. So we get artificial 1/2 second delays added by the computer. Which negates any advantage. The DSG, though, seems to be a real attempt at making a true semi-automatic. So far it looks needlessly complex but capable of lasting more than a few races. 0.1 - 0.2 second shifts up and down, plus the ability to go from any gear to any other at that speed - it does look interesting.
Split the hairs any way you want, if there's any degree of automation to the clutch process or the gear change process, it ain't a manual transmission. As for your assertion that the torque converter is a good litmus test, sorry, not buying that either. Show me in the dictionary where the word "Automatic" is equated to "Torque Converter".
I still don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. The fact is that there are three types of transmissions out there:
1) Automatic -- Transmissions capable of all gear change and clutch operations once the mode is set (i.e. Forward, Reverse or Park)
2) Semi-Automatic -- Transmissions that automate one or more parts of the clutching and gear changing process.
3) Manual -- Transmissions where the driver has a direct mechanical, hydraulic or cable linkage to the clutch and gear change mechanisms.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Automatic is a proper noun for a transmission with a torque converter. A transmission can operate in an automatic (or automated) mode without being an Automatic transmission.
I guess that means the old ancient transmissions that didn't have a clutch aren't "true" manual transmissions either, nor is a single-gear transmission.
Neither is a manual. A manual is all decisions and all shifts are made by the driver, the car has no say over any part of either process.
And the presence or lack of a torque converter has nothing to do with it. Some TC automatics are fully automatic, some are semi-automatic, the so-called "manumatics".
And automatics, whether fully or semi-automatic, are universally odious. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Automatic is a proper noun for a transmission with a torque converter. A transmission can operate in an automatic (or automated) mode without being an Automatic transmission."
Fine, then it is a semi-automatic.
I don't believe that the scope of this discussion was meant to include the crude devices build during the dawn of the automotive age. :P
I guess that means the old ancient transmissions that didn't have a clutch aren't "true" manual transmissions either, nor is a single-gear transmission.
Well, for the single speed maybe or maybe not, if there is no way to change the ratio, then it could be classified either way.
As far as the ancient transmissions, there has to be slip somewhere in the system for it to work, otherwise it could not idle and it could not get underway. If the drivetrain has some provision to manually disconnect the power to select a gear (and I cant think of any that don't, even antiques), thats still a clutch.
On-road driving pleasure is not about going fast. My Wife's Acura TL is certainly more powerful than either of my MT cars and its shifts are probably faster than I typically shift in normal driving, but it is MUCH less desirable to drive!
***
That's the beauty of a SMT, though. There is no computer deciding anything. All it does is automate the clutch sequence when you move the gear lever via a series of relays and so on. But take it apart and the rest of it is pure manual through and through. Of course, to date, none have made it to the marketplace without adding a layer of nanny-ware and computers, so it's not the same thing anymore by the time we get it.
But to call it semi-automatic, well, I guess you would have to call a typical 6-speed gearbox semi-automatic as well, since originally cars didn't even have a clutch. It was a semi-automatic method of moving the gears around without risking stripping teeth and the like(instead you would grind the clutch plates).
There's a vast difference between this and a typical semi-automatic. The main one of course, is the torque converter. Or in simpler terms, whether you can push-start it and tow it with the drive wheels on the ground by putting it in neutral and so on. Note - this right here gets rid of most everything BUT the SMT, as well as quit a few of the newer "manuals" in some of the luxury makes.
Perhaps we need a different set of labels, then?
- Manual transmission(no clutch at all - ancient technology)
- Semi-automated manual transmission(current manuals plus the racing SMT and a few oddities like the old Mercedes and VWs)
- Semi-Automatic(manual with manual shifting but computers and nanny-ware and so on to fully automate it)
- Automatic. Creating the illusion of manual shifting via paddles or +/- is still 100% automatic.
- CVT
- AWD
- multiple transmissions (4x4 and the like)
The difference between semi-automated and semi-automatic of course is whether or not you can do things like A 2-4 shift up and down instantly and have a real manual shifter(no +/-) It's a manual but with AI involved. Currently only a few companies offer this like Porsche/VW and a few other top-end luxury makes. Most of the consumer SMTs also fall under this category. The semi-automated ones have no AI involved at all - just varying levels of clutch assistance.
Interesting tidbit - the Smart car(Pure model only) has a true SMT. It's odd to drive at first because you have to lift off the gas a tiny bit between shifts like with a clutch or else you'll bog/grind the clutch between shifts. You can skip gears - it's odd, though, the way they decided to implement the thing(+/- instead of a proper setup). Truly weird to drive at first.
Everything else is an automatic in my book.
Bad analogy, for your point. Virtually every pro on the PGA Tour still uses forged, tour blade irons with rifled steel shafts. The vast majority of mid to high handicap golfers would use cavity backed cast irons, some/many with graphite shafts. Putting cavity backed cast clubs in the hands of a pro would be like putting household scissors in the hands of a surgeon. But putting tour blade clubs in the hands of a 20 handicaper would be like putting a surgeons scalpel in the hands of a plumber.
You insist on having some ill-conceived notion that the SMG's in a Formula One car have any resemblence to those used in production cars. They are about as similar as the Formula One 200 mile racing tires are to your 40,000 mile Goodyears. You also have an ill concieved notion that what's best for 3 g capable Formula One cars must be best for street legal 1+/- g street cars. Do you put on a 5 point harness and racing helmet every time you get groceries?
I haven't driven nearly as many high end cars spiritinthesky has, but I can tell you that form driving an M3 SMG and M3 6-speed back to back, as well as a 911S Tiptronic back to back with my 911S 6-speed, I fully agree with his conclusion. The manual transmissions, at least in those cars, are simply better in terms of control and positive engagement. Period. A conclusion, by the way, that virtually all of the professional testers from C&D, R&T, Automobile, etc. also have come to.
Are the production SMG's and DSG's getting better? Yes. But if you think the fully sychronized short throw 6-speed on a 911 or even the gearbox on a $30k Honda S2000 is equivalent to the old "dog leg" on your father's pick up, you need to get out more. That's just "dog dirt", if you get my drift.
"That's the beauty of a SMT, though. There is no computer deciding anything. All it does is automate the clutch sequence when you move the gear lever via a series of relays and so on."
Your words not mine. What you've described above is a semi-automatic transmission.
"But to call it semi-automatic, well, I guess you would have to call a typical 6-speed gearbox semi-automatic as well, since originally cars didn't even have a clutch. It was a semi-automatic method of moving the gears around without risking stripping teeth and the like(instead you would grind the clutch plates)."
What is semi-automatic about manually moving gears around in a conventional 6-Speed transmission? Answer: Nothing. Hence the fact that it is called a "Manual" transmission.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Oops, guess your "manual" really isn't manual at all. :shades:
I can't blame them for nanny-izing it really, because if you had to replace the clutch in your Mercedes every year, they would die in the marketplace. BMW's also was nanny-ized to death, which is a shame. The technology underneath it, sans the computers trying to out-think you is superb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrohydraulic_manual_transmission
That and the DMG are true semi-automatics. They work very well as opposed to manu-matics. Of course, you always want a proper shifter. The +/- thing is lame as is if it only can do one gear at a time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_Manual_Transmission
This is different entirely as nothing is automated other than the clutch. So you can do things like drop it into 2nd at 60mph and blow the engine, miss shifts entirely, bog the engine...
Mercedes did something similar in the 60s- their Hydrak semi-automatic clutch. It had a weird linkage that would trigger a solenoid to operate the clutch when you took it out of gear and moved to another one. Most were converted to fully manual setups though over the years. It worked because the clutch in them was a purely electric clutch(no actual linkage). Fun to drive as a result, since there is a definite on/off point to the clutch where you trip the solenoid. Allows for very quick shifts.
http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/hydrak.htm
Possibly one of the earliest SMT type setups.
Bzzzt! I'm sorry, that's incorrect. The Manual transmisison is a 100% manual and mechanical device. Splitting the hair about the collar versus moving a gear itself is irrelevant, you are still manually moving a mechanical component away from one gear cluster and engaging another. As such, it's still a fully manual process.
Best Regards,
Shipo
It doesn't matter one whit if the F-1 transmission is anything like a street transmission, or if a WRC transmission is anything like a Subaru WRX. They give the "real professional driver an advantage." If they didn't no one would use them. It only matters that the advances in racing transmissions are moving in a direction that will eliminate the dog leg and the third pedel. So saying the traditional six speed transmission is more sporting doesn't hold water. It is more traditional but it is not more advanced.
All it takes to fit the criteria for "semi-automatic" is for one component or sub-process to be automated. A mechanical gearbox with an automatic clutch is a semi-automatic transmission.
As for the history lesson on transmission technology... So? What's your point?
I know that you don't want to yield on this issue, but like it or not, the English language is very adept at categorizing and describing technological components, and by every measure of our language, a three-pedal manual transmission qualifies as a true manual. On the otherhand, every single alphabet soup tranny that has come along is definitively classified as at least a semi-automatic transmission. Now, if you want to argue with the folks at Webster or American Heritage or even the linguists that are responsible for the Cambridge Dictionary, then be my guest. I by the way will stand on the sidelines and enjoy the show. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Neither do you. Even "manual" transmissions these days have automation in them, even if it's simly automatic rev-matching. :shades:
The driver moves the shift lever, the shift lever moves the shift rods, the shift rods move the forks, the forks move the collars over a mechanical syncro and onto the end of a gear. Nothing automatic about it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
If it was truly manual you would have to match the revs yourself.
I'm going to end this conversation here. If you don't like it, take it up with the linguists who publish every major English language dictionary. If you feel you have a really convincing argument, maybe they'll change the dictionary for you. Good luck.
Best Regards,
Shipo
***
Which is by definition also what an automatic clutch on an otherwise stock manual transmission does. You take it out of gear and the instant it goes out of gear, it lets the clutch out(electro-mechanical sensor) and then lets it back in when the sensor for the gear is tripped again. No AI, no computers, just replacing the need for you to stomp on the clutch lever(which in many modern cars actually... guess what... trips a soleniod which moves an actuator)
It does exactly what you tell it to do based upon your movement. Just much faster than you can ever stomp on a clutch pedal. Gotta love old-school sensors and soleniods(we're talking pinball machine technology). A perfect example would be a joystick. Lots of mechanical sensors and microswitches inside, but nobody would say that you aren't doing it manually.(as opposed to say, a mouse or trackball which is all about software and sensing velocity and so on)
This is a far cry from a typical manu-matic.
As for what to call it, there are dozens of names for transmissions. But the main defining factor is what you hit upon - is there a computer or a torque converter inbetween you and the transmission? True manuals come in many types but never include either. How you engage the clutch itself is a whole other deal - and there have been some very novel ways to do it over the years.
Indeed.
I used to think I was fairly hard-core concerning manuals, but the bar has certainly been raised to qualify.
That may be a defining factor, but it is not what makes it automatic or manual. If it shifts completely automatically, then it is automatic. You just step on the gas pedal and go the automatic transmission, whether it has a torque converter or is a DSG, does the rest.
I think some of the debate over what is automatic or manual stems from the view of many here that manual=good and automatic=bad. So then since torque converter=bad, some think automatic=torque converter. In kind of the same way some feel clutch pedal=good, therefore no clutch=automatic.
If you must shift (change gears) manually but the clutch is engaged automatically, then this has traditionally been called semi-automatic. We could just as well call it semi-manual, though
Frankly, I'm not a diehard traditionalist. But neither am I a brainless slave to the latest technology for technologies sake. I don't think "advanced" is anything to aspire to, if it's not "better". And, in the (non-Formula 1) cars I own, the manual transmission is better for what my priorities are. Which, by the way, do not include drag racing. They do include direct control and positive engagement in my daily driving (occasionally enthusiastic), with no "slushy" feel or surprises. Your priorities may be different.
I forgot, did you say you do wear polyester suits, or not?
First stop, the local Honda dealer. We looked at Fit's, Elements SC's, and Accord V-6's. No manuals at all on the lot. As we looked at each vehicle we asked, can you get us one with a manual. "We can order one but it will be a few months, only 5% of these come with a manual". The one car with a manual: a civic Si.
On to the Nissan dealer, same thing with the Altima and Versa. None on the lot, and a long wait. We ended up testing a Sentra SE-R Spec V.
The Toyota dealer yeilded the same experience. Only Mazda seemed to have plenty of manuals (unfortunatly, none that both of us liked). I liked the Mazdaspeed3 but my wife was terrified of it.
Finding a nice car with a manual is getting nearly impossible to find (unless you're looking at sports cars). Just put our depsosit on a Civic Si this week. Should be coming in a couple of weeks.
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I have no problem with people preferring the "feel" they get from driving a manual. All I am saying is the direction everything is headed does not indicate a bright future for the manual. I can remember when people preferred clicker keyboards because they gave them the feel of a typewriter when using a computer or word processor. Like it or not clicker keyboards seem pretty rare today.
Like many men I have one wool suit for weddings and funerals. For everyday use I don't much care what I might wear to work, a blend would be fine. I prefer denim and cotton on a casual basis. But truth be known, I don't like suits and am not fond of ties and so if I had to wear one it wouldn't make a bit of difference if it were polyester or paper as long as it was comfortable and fit well and I didn't have to wear it every day. And if one day they stopped making wool suits and I couldn't get a cotton or silk shirt I doubt if my life would be effected much. I would miss my leather jacket but my down filled polyester parka is a lot warmer.
I hope you and your Model T are very happy together :P
The local Ford dealer? Not a single stick among well over a hundred vehicles. Ditto the Dodge/Chrysler dealer.
The local Toyota dealer? Well I have given up on them, although they do occasionally get a stick shift Scion model.
The Honda dealer was fairly encouraging. The only stick shift Accords were stripped DXs, but apart from that they had stick shifts in stock in all the models that offer one. Several Elements, a bunch of Civics including a dozen SIs (most were sedans, I wonder if that one is selling as well as hoped?), and even a couple of S2000s. The problem with Honda, of course, is that there are less and less models all the time that offer a manual option.
The Subaru dealer was good too, lots of Outbacks and Imprezas with sticks, and most of their WRXs are sticks. The thing that's nice about Subaru is that whenever they offer an incentivized lease, they offer it on the manual-trans model, so the dealers stock up on them.
And Chevy? Lots of stripped-out base-model Colorados, Aveos, and Cobalts with sticks. I guess people who want a manual transmission must have a rep as cheapskates. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually, I, my wife and two daughters are very happy in our 911S Cabriolet 6-speed manual, thank you. So what new age slushbox do you drive that I should aspire to? :P :P
And do you wear polyester suits?