The Future Of The Manual Transmission

stickguy

I looked at an old car today (for my son). A '93 Accord 4 door, with a stick. Had an interesting conversation with the women that showed it (it was her sons car). The son was badgering her about not letting new drivers drive it (not sure if he meant until they bought it, or don't touch the clutch (repair) until they got comfortable with it).

Anyway, I got the impression that a number of people stopped to look, but moved on when they found out it was a stick. She said most of the boys, and all of the girls, couldn't drive one.

I guess we were just two dinosaurs that both learned to drive on a manual, and still have one!

jeffyscott

I thnk part of the demise og the MT may be due to lack of inventory on the lot.

I'm pretty sure you have that backwards, they are not on the lot because the vast majority of buyers don't want them. Therefore the dealers don't stock 'em and the manufacturers don't build 'em.

I bet more many more people buy a manual just to save some money (they'd take the auto, if it were free) than buy an automatic because no manual was in stock.

bristol2

Clearly there were at least 2 customers who wanted manual and could not find it in inventory.

We all agree on the sales numbers and the lack of inventory, I have never seen any statistic that measured what people want versus what is available.

If less than 10% of dealer stock is manual, but around 10% of cars bought are manual then, by definition, there is unmet demand.

boaz47

You make me smile my friend. I believe traditionally manuals were less expensive and in fact were considered the "standard" transmission in many American cars. When you bought the next level up you got better trim, a bigger engine and an automatic. By the late 60s they still called the manual a standard transmission but you had to order it even in mussel cars. Almost all the Big Mopars had a 4 speed automatics and even the vaunted SS chevys had to be ordered with a manual, I don't remember if they were muncies or Saginaws. I think only Ford offered a manual stock on their Mustang. Well stock if you were looking for one on the lot. When the imports really hit their stride they were considered economy cars and as such most often offered manuals. As they improved, I am sure you can remember the trouble the early Toyota automatics had, they began working on Automatics just like the American cars and by today Totota sells more Automatics in the US than they do Manuals. The point I have been trying to make is the percentages of manuals has decreased to a point where they are in danger of becoming a niche transmission. That may be fine for some people but it does indicate that many of the major manufacturers might lose interest in making them. The last think I want in life is to be forced into looking at a European manufacturer for a car simply to get a manual.

bpizzuti

I don't wear suits...I HATE wearing suits. I have a thick neck (has to be, to hold up my incredibly large brain, mwa ha ha!).

And I think the new VW sequentials deserve serious consideration. Just a shame about the cars they're attached to. Luckily, Mitsubishi is putting a sequential tranny in the upcoming EVO, so I'd definitely check that out.

daysailer

No one disputes that manuals are a declining minority of units sold and I doubt that any of us want to see our vehicle (or manufacturer nationality) choices limited by transmission availability, but that has already happened. I purchased my first automatic in 1992 ONLY because I could not find a suitable tow vehicle with a manual (those that were advertised with a manual option could not be had in reality). Having never before owned an automatic, I convinced myself that technology had improved and it wouldn't be THAT bad. I WAS WRONG, it was WORSE than I expected and I regretted it as long as I owned the vehicle! More recently, having spent 2+ years driving 500+ miles/week in automatic rental cars of many manufacturers, I have encountered NO automatic that I would even consider inoffensive, let alone preferable (and much of that driving was in bumper-to--bumper, stop-and-go, D.C. area traffic).

Why do people want to surrender their driving responsibilities to a wayward machine or acquiesce to the control priorities of the manufacturer, the EPA, the DOE or whatever? I certainly don't!

stever

My daysailing buddy has a 1992-ish F-150 with a 4 speed manual. He pulls a 20' sailboat a few times a year. He regrets not getting an automatic. The blood flow to his brain isn't impacted either - he never wears a tie.

dsirias

Some of you might have encountered my posts elswhere about having to factory order a Mazda 61 5 door. Why? Because there was not a single manual Grand Touring in the entire state of CA. There were several base models. But I think that goes to the previous poster mentioning that the manufacturers must still associate manual transmission with the frugal buyer who does not want extras. Well I wanted all the bells and whistles and now have to wait--probably until late August, after ordering in May.

habitat1

I have a thick neck (has to be, to hold up my incredibly large brain, mwa ha ha!).

I think if I tried that line, I'd get a couple responses that my thick neck doesn't hold up a large brain, but an even thicker skull.

I have not driven VW's sequential, and I'm unlikely to ever drive a Mitsubishi EVO. But neither the M3 nor M5 SMG's even came close to winning me over - I'd pay a premium to get a stick in either of those, if I had to. Supposedly the DSG unit being worked on by Porsche is supposed to be a great "advancement". But, for me, I can't justify spending $3,400+ (assuming same price as current Titronic) for something that has to work so hard so as just to not be offensive to my priorities. And then subject me to the potential of $5,000+ tranmssion repairs in lieu of a $1,000 clutch replacement.

tallman1

because there was not a single manual Grand Touring in the entire state of CA.

I had a similar situation while looking for a loaded Accord I4 with Navi last year. Fortunately, there were three in the Pacific NW... but all of them were at least 2.5 hours away. :sick:

I have some real concerns with what I'll find the next time I'm looking.

bristol2

You have to get 6 months out and order. I have accepted that I won't find my ideal car on a lot.

If dealerships seem to give anyone a hard time on orders, ignore them, they just want to sell you something on the lot.
They should be grateful for orders, they don't impact their future allotments and they get a nice fee for taking the plastic wrap off.

nippononly

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? ;-)

I know there ARE people who will settle for an automatic if there is no manual in stock. Once, in the long-ago days of early 2002, I was one of those people with my Matrix purchase, and I have never regretted an automotive purchase as much as that one. And no car I ever bought cost me so much on the back-end (sold after a scant 18 months because I couldn't stand the auto) either, which for a CCB sufferer is saying a lot! ;-)

I tend to think it is a bit of both: some people settle for auto when they find no manual in stock, and dealers order few manuals because there isn't a lot of interest in them.

The Sube dealers often run screamer ads for quantities of left-over manual shift cars after the corporate lease expires and leaves them with cars that are hard to sell. Right now there is a dealer who has got a bunch of manual-shift Outback basics he has to try to get rid of, $18,988 for all.

I think there will still be manuals around for the kind of cars I like to buy for at least a couple of decades.

jeffyscott

The Sube dealers often run screamer ads for quantities of left-over manual shift cars...

Exactly, the manuals don't sell. They have to discount them. They make less money on them, so when they have a choice, they get fewer of them next time. Many times the manual's role is to be advertised, as a loss-leader.

andys120

I think there will still be manuals around for the kind of cars I like to buy for at least a couple of decades.

I wouldn't bet on it.

gimmegirl

Education is the key. Tell the younger generation how cool it is to drive a stick - especially if their friends can't. Tell them how much they'll save on gas. (My Matrix 2007 xr 5 speed gets 37 MPG in Northern Virginia bumper to bumper driving - and I'm hoping to improve on that.) Tell them that their car is less likely to be stolen. And TEACH them. My BF's children (25, 21, 19) all learned to drive a stick - their budds think they are sooooo cool - and they are.

plekto

Check out the RX-8. It's very similar to the G35 sedan in size(except the rear doors are half as wide and the front are 50% longer - imagine the door seam on a G35 is back a foot). Both seat 4. It goes like stink. It handles like a dream. And to top it off, the manual is a thing of joy. It'll do 0-60 and 1/4 mile times that are identical to a Boxster. No, really - it's that silly quick. Sub 6 second 0-60 and 14.5 second quarter mile.

punkr77

We actually just put down our deposit on a Civic Si this week. We did test drive the Mazda's. We both liked the RX-8 but the trunk, though large, had a very odd opening that would be a pain to use as our only car. It was worse than the last gen Mustang Cobra we're driving now.

I liked the Mazdaspeed3, but my wife was really intimidated by the light weight and hefty power at the front wheels. No sunroof available and a 2000 ADM was another strike against it.

We likely would have gone with one or the other were it not for the biggest turn-off: the closest dealership. It's 40 miles away making service a pain. The saleswoman was crumby; made us feel like we weren't worth her time. Then we met the sales manager and he gave us both the creeps.

boaz47

It also doesn't help that the RX-8 gets about the same fuel mileage as the Mazda SUV and still has an oil consumption issue. You would think it was a VW.

oregonboy

Rotarys are fun, but thirsty. :P

boaz47

Oh I agree. But even when I was interested in a RX-7 twin turbo they used gas like a 427 Vette and ate oil. But they were so nice to drive. Not much out of the hole but once they started going the ran great.

lilengineerboy

Oh I agree. But even when I was interested in a RX-7 twin turbo they used gas like a 427 Vette and ate oil. But they were so nice to drive. Not much out of the hole but once they started going the ran great.

In 1994, one of my friends bought an RX7 R2. Two weeks later he took it to an autocross where 3 of us drove it. We finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. The engine seems to last about 60-70k before needed a somewhat pricey rebuild, but to have a 280hp 2800# car, it might be worth it.

...or it might not. An E36 M3 is about as fast, handles about as well, holds 4 people, yada yada yada

punkr77

Oh I agree. But even when I was interested in a RX-7 twin turbo they used gas like a 427 Vette and ate oil. But they were so nice to drive. Not much out of the hole but once they started going the ran great

When my wife and I test drove the RX-8, the salesperson gave us a laundry list of things an owner had to do to keep the engine ship shape. She said it does burn oil so you have to check the oil every time you fill up and carry spare oil with you (not a big deal for me, but was for the wife). She also said you couldn't crank the car, back it out and shut it off, rather you have to let the engine come up to temperature before shutting it off. There were some other words of advice too. None of it a deal breaker.

I've heard several times that the Rotary will run well forever as long as you keep oil in it and have it changed on time, every time. Otherwise, you end up with a very large paperweight.

Two other things I didn't mention that also put me off a bit. The raised tunnel for the transmission would mean our dog wouldn't fit well in the back (80 lb elderly lab). The chrome circle in the dash was kind of ugly/dated. I guess it was supposed to mimic a CD.

All of that aside, it may have been our next car were it not for the dealership. If I don't like the sales staff, I won't buy a car. Generally, if the sales staff is bad, the service department is worse and you'll be seeing them for the life of the car.

habitat1

All of that aside, it may have been our next car were it not for the dealership. If I don't like the sales staff, I won't buy a car.

I think you might be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, if you take that approach.

For what it's worth, I haven't dealt with the "sales staff" of any dealership for my last 5+ car purchasess, dating back to my 1995 Nissan Maxima. Once I decided I wanted something, my call went in straight to the sales manager or general manager to cut a deal. I am also easily upset by a sales person that doesn't know thier rear end from a hole in the ground. And I will not put up with any BS negotiating techniques.

Unless you are in an area where you have a multitude of various dealerships, I'd recommend going to the top early. even if there are multiple dealerships, in fact.

I do agree with you that the service department is important as well, which is why I asked to be introduced to the service manager as well. So far, so good with all of my purchases.

plekto

Rotary engines are essentially 3-stroke engines, so they will burn some oil as a normal part of operation, not too differently than a 2-stroke engine. 4 stroke engines also burn some oil, just not as much as a rotary and MUCH less than a 2-stroke.

Not a defect - just different technology. And yes, you COULD get a M3, but you can also get a RX-8 for about 23-24K after rebates. That's an astounding price for what you get.

The engines last a very long time if you take care of them. The problems with the older RX-7s was the turbo they put on many of them. It stressed everything a bit more than it should have.

Oh - the quirks/things you have to do are very similar to a typical motorcycle that has carbs(most of them still). Warm it up before flogging it, check the oil and such, blip the throttle a bit when shutting it down or after idling in traffic a long time to blow out gunk/excess fuel... I've had several cars with carbs over the years, so this is second nature anyways, and good practice with most new cars as well.

dudleyr

I agree with teaching kids to drive a stick. If they never learn to drive a stick they are not complete drivers.

I have a not on my liscence because I wear glasses, maybe the same should be true for those who can't drive any model of car.

stever

"Inside Line drives the 2007 Lexus IS 250, the last remaining Lexus that is equipped with a manual transmission and clutch pedal."

Follow-Up Test: 2007 Lexus IS 250

lilengineerboy

The engines last a very long time if you take care of them. The problems with the older RX-7s was the turbo they put on many of them. It stressed everything a bit more than it should have.

The 3 93-94 RX7s I know all popped motors in the low 70k mark, it was expected, it wasn't a surprise, and all 3 had been used well over that 70k. All 3 got new motors and are happily running to the next rebuild.

The 2 RX8s (both were early 1st year models) are both on their 3rd motors and will be dumped at end of lease. I don't know all the details about who got their oil changed when but they both belong to enthusiasts and they were also covered under the warranty.
Also, the back seat feels claustrophobic, but its actually very comfortable, even for a relatively long drive.

lilengineerboy

"Inside Line drives the 2007 Lexus IS 250, the last remaining Lexus that is equipped with a manual transmission and clutch pedal."

Why wouldn't you get a G35 or a 3-series, especially if you wanted something sporty?

british_rover

Because you are mesmerized by the Lexus badge... :confuse:

boaz47

noticed the car comercials showing sporty cars with paddle shifters. The Mazda one I have see many times but the Audi TT one is pretty well done. It says you can't do many things in .02 seconds but you can shift and then it shows an Audi TT flashing by.

andys120

I noticed the Mitsubishi Lancer commercial showing the paddle shifters but they seem pointless when hooked up to a CVT. :confuse:

nippononly

GAWD, you can say that again.

bumpy

Not quite pointless. The paddle shifters let you hold a ratio in the CVT.

lilengineerboy

Not quite pointless. The paddle shifters let you hold a ratio in the CVT.

For engine braking down hill? Isn't there some type of decent control built into the logic already? I guess I am just grasping at why you would want to hold a ratio, having paid a premium to get something continually adjustable.

bumpy

Engine braking, trying to get out of snow or mud, holding the rpm up through a corner, etc. Those are the useful reasons. The real reason is that most CVTs are programmed to mimic an automatic so people don't freak out on the test drive, and paddle shifters are the trendy way to implement selectable automatics these days.

nippononly

hehe, it's funny to me that automatic technology is still crude enough that the supposedly "better" transmission has to be programmed to mimic the "worse" one just so that consumers will find it acceptable.

Manuals may be the crudest of all, but they are inexpensive and durable, and we aren't inventing fifty new ways to implement them just so that existing users will accept them.

lilengineerboy

Engine braking, trying to get out of snow or mud, holding the rpm up through a corner, etc. Those are the useful reasons.

Wow, I guess I never thought about it, I have a real manual so I just put it in the gear I want and balance the clutch.

The real reason is that most CVTs are programmed to mimic an automatic so people don't freak out on the test drive,

It seems some are programed to do that more than others, the DC one has more steps, while the Nissan one seemed smoother.

bumpy

Manuals may be the crudest of all, but they are inexpensive and durable, and we aren't inventing fifty new ways to implement them just so that existing users will accept them.

SMT

daysailer

the CVT has undergone 40 odd years of development so as to realize the benefits of infinite gear ratios only to have its implementation artificially limited to discreet ratios so drivers will not recognize it as a CVT or realize its benefits!??

bpizzuti

Yeah, kinda like they still put in a clutch pedal hooked to a solenoid so people think they're still controlling a clutch.

andys120

we aren't inventing fifty new ways to implement them just so that existing users will accept them.

Ever try shifting a non-synchro crashbox?

nippononly

Ha, the SMT is just a way for them to offer a transmission that is acceptable to the people wanting an automatic, yet one that still offers some racing-born advantages over a regular TC automatic. So it's more of what I was talking about, only in the case of the SMT it is a REALLY EXPENSIVE example of what I was talking about.

When I said existing users, I meant people who drive a manual and want a manual in their next vehicle. For those people, no SMT is needed, a 5- or 6-speed dogleg will be as acceptable as ALL heck!

And andys120, I am NOT talking about manual-trans innovations of 40 years ago, I mean innovations now (as I suspect you know! ;-)). But I have driven non-synchro boxes, yes, and it is not the nightmare some would make it out to be. It just requires more precision in operation.

And bpizzutti: tell me, how many solenoid-operated clutches are there installed in production cars meant for the street? Let's count...uh....one....no, wait....

bristol2

I'm with you Nippon.

In my humble opinion, the thread should more accurately be titled 'The short future of the torque-converter auto'.

All these acronym transmissions are really a threat to the traditional slush-box, not the manual transmission. Look at Nissan, they have kept the CVT and manual for the Altima and cut out the traditional auto.

plekto

...tell me, how many solenoid-operated clutches are there installed in production cars meant for the street? Let's count...uh....one....no, wait....


Mercedes back in roughly 1960, for one... Soleniod operated clutches are far more common that most people realize, since it gets rid of a lot of useless parts and linkages. The pedal doesn't actually GO anywhere on some cars, but you have to literally crawl under it or get upside down under the dash to realize it.

Edit:
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/auto-manual-transmission.html
A nice article on a new dual-clutch manual that's in the works. It's neat how it moves the gears around so that it's always in both gears at once but only one is actually engaged. I suspect with a "sport" selection, it would leave 4th linked to 3rd for instantaneous downshifts to pass.

nippononly

yes, I know that along the way there have been one or two examples. But I would me MOST curious to hear of any production models available that way today. I strongly suspect there are none, although that's at least partly because manuals have gone away entirely in a broad swath of production models, including sports or sporty cars.

plekto

I think it would surprise you. Many have moved from hard linkages to cables over the years and so making it all electro-mechanical is a logical step. But unless you look at the other end of the clutch pedal, you'll never know what method they decided to use these days.

I suspect that the Honda Accord and Civic might use something similar - it has a very precise on/off point and no real friction to speak of at that point.

nippononly

The real test would be whether you could feather it if you tried hard enough. No solenoid-operated clutch would be featherable. Can you make an Accord clutch slip and keep slipping if you want it to?

andres3

There was a third pedal that was "automatically" moved in and out as needed to shift like DSG 1st edition, only you could switch it into manual mode and had to use the pedal in addition to the paddle shifters or handle/stick in the center console?

Might be strange using your left leg and paddles at the same time.

cdnpinhead

"Ever try shifting a non-synchro crashbox?"

Yes, yes I have. Did it for a living, in fact.

Requires skill and/or experience, so it's easy to see why it's no longer viable.

plekto

http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/hydrak.htm

Okay, NOT what you were probably thinking of - a real oddity, in fact. They don't show a picture of the linkage, but there is a mechanical linkage from the steering column underneath to the clutch mechanism - an oddly shaped piece of metal.

http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/other/hydrak1.htm
A nice article about driving one of these things. When you touched the lever(yes, 4-speed on the steering column) and held it in, it would activate the clutch pedal mechanism - so you would have to hold it in and shift and then stop pressing in. Oh - and not syncronized, either(double-egads!)

Yes, very odd. Tons of ways to miss or blow the shift, as well, as you can imagine. My old Mercedes had the solenoid activated clutch since the Hydrak was an option that year on it.

Trust me - go with the standard clutch on one of these if you can. You gain the electro-mechanical clutch and you can just row through the gears like normal. I'll check the Honda Accord in a few days to see if it has one - probably something cable-activated with a tiny activating range.

P.S. My old 4-Runner has no syncro on the reverse. It's um... interesting at times hearing it grind a tiny bit while parking.