The Future Of The Manual Transmission

seminole_kev

One of mine is a non-synchro'd 1st gear, but 1st isn't such a problem for that though compared to 2nd on up.

qbrozen

P.S. My old 4-Runner has no syncro on the reverse. It's um... interesting at times hearing it grind a tiny bit while parking.

really? huh. I had an '87 4runner, which i believe was the 1st year for them (although i have seen a couple of '86s advertised). I don't remember ever having a problem with reverse.

lilengineerboy

'84 was the first year of the 4Runner, but before that they were called something else like Trek or something and I don't think they were available in NA.
That was about the same time the Bronco II came out IIRC, the very beginning of the SUV craze.

plekto

Oh, it goes into reverse just fine - but I have to shift into first and let it wind down to an idle before going into reverse(or start it and put it in reverse - that works, too)

My old mercedes ground gears a tiny bit going into 2nd - nothing you could do about it. Typical for them I found.

daysailer

Honda/Acura has used cable and hydraulic clutch linkages.

dudleyr

Another manual advantaqe.

http://www.theregister.com/2007/06/21/stick_shift_dummies/

habitat1

Those kids must be related to the idiot that tried stealing my Acura TL 6-speed and could only manage to roll down the windows and blast "Juke Box Hero" on the radio at 2:30 a.m.

The article referred to "four on the floor". Not sure if any of those still exist. Guess it should be termed "six on the stick", nowadays.

lilengineerboy

Three-on-the-tree was before my time, although I have driven a Chevy truck that was a stick on the tree...on and a Citroen that was 4 in the air.

jeffyscott

Or five on the...umm...hmm...uhh... :confuse:

I bet the reporter can't drive a manual himself, since he does not know that even the cheapest manuals have had 5 speeds for at least a couple decades.

nippononly

Ummm, mid-90s Tercel Cheapie Edition with the 4-speed manual would prove you wrong there.

Which offering was a discredit to Toyota IMO, by the way. How much more does the fifth gear cost, relative to the improvement to the consumer? C'MON!

dudleyr

Used to have a Plymouth Volare wagon with three on the tree and manual steering. A bear to park but fine while driving. The clutch was like a trucks.

Used to really get my friends mad because their fancy cars with automatics and power everything were slower. The only accessory belt I had was for the alternator. No PS or AC to slow things down.

I think the author was using the term 4 on the floor metaphorically.

boaz47

Do we believe manuals will increase or decrease with the new transmission offerings? If manuals are already less than 10 percent of the auto buying public's first choice how will they survive with the additional inclusion of SMT and DSGs not to mention CVTs? Without those other transmissions automatics held a nine to one advantage. The Asians are moving slowly away from Manuals to CVTs as seen by even the casual observer looking at cars Produced for the Asian home market. Nissan offers at least two models that only come with a CVT, one a suv and the other their tried and true Maxima. More and more companies are now offering Hybrids and if that trend continues where does that leave the manual? Cars in the US fall under the heading of transportation and to some maybe status. Most people don't see driving as an experience or even a skill but rather as a job, task or right so they can do something else. You drive to get to work, you drive to go be entertained but you don't tend to drive for entertainment. Those days are long gone in the US and with fuel prices they aren't likely to come back.

seminole_kev

While I'd love to see DSG just replace slushbox automatics, and manufacturers still offer regular sticks like VW has done so far, I have a feeling that isn't going to be the case long term.

I did find it interesting that Ford dropped using the CVT and went back to a traditional slushbox for the 500/Taurus. As much as I don't like slushboxes, I really don't like the way CVTs feel.

nwng

so i was a cheapie? I think it got better mpg than the 5 sp

stever

hmmm, my 1982 Tercel was a 5 speed - "on the floor", lol. I broke my left leg sometime in the mid-80's and got pretty good at shifting the Tercel without the clutch while wearing a cast for 2 or 3 weeks.

I learned to drive stick on a '57 Chevy with 3 on a tree. It was awful - if it weren't for getting into VW Bugs a couple of years after that, I'd probably would have sworn off manuals entirely.

kyfdx

'82 Accord was a 5-speed

'77 Mustang II was a 4-speed

'76 CJ-5 was a 3-speed (on the floor)

stever

Forgot all about my 1974 CJ-5. It was torquey off the line but I don't remember enjoying shifting it much. Not like the Bugs or the Tercel.

kyfdx

I liked the 3-speed shift pattern, though... with 1st gear straight under reverse..

Early Nissan 5-speeds had this, as well.. with 1st gear on the bottom..

nippononly

Not on the highway it didn't. But it was the cheapie in other ways, not just the transmission. It was the last Toyota ever to be offered with vinyl seats (that were invariably shredded after a few short years, just as in the old cars from the 70s with vinyl seats). Plus NOTHING was standard, I mean NOTHING. Even less than the Echo and Civic CX/DX.

bristol2

I really believe that the new transmissions actually signal the end of the 'traditional' automatic transmission and that the manual will continue as is.
Interesting that you mention fuel prices because high fuel prices (and any raising of the CAFE standards) makes the manual a stronger contender.

boaz47

But doesn't higher fuel prices also indicate a move towards more Hybrids? And if Toyota is any example that doesn't indicate much use for manuals.

bristol2

But that makes the assumption that Hybrids are the only resolution for improved mileage.
Next generation diesel and smaller vehicles are equally as effective as strategies and both benefit with a manual.

I remember hearing one of the automotive lobby groups explaining that part of the reason that the US market could not match the European market for mileage was that 80% of European cars are manual and 10% of US vehicles are manual. That suggests even the auto makers see manuals as a good mileage maker.

jeffyscott

Ummm, mid-90s Tercel Cheapie Edition with the 4-speed manual would prove you wrong there.

Wow...mid-90s :surprise: . I assumed that since my el-cheapo (no A/C, AM only radio) 1986 Horizon had 5 speeds that everything else also did by then.

dudleyr

My 1980 Scirocco had 5-speeds - and multipoint fuel injection (rare for back then). 2,000 lbs (actually a little less) of fun.

No idea they still did 4 speeds in the 90's.

shipo

My 1979 Scirocco 5-Speed was something of an anomoly as apparently all 1979s imported to the U.S.A. were 4-Speed units except for the last five hundred or so. Funny thing, it was really a 4-Speed unit with the back of the case cut out and an extender bolted on, thus making room for the fifth gear cogs.

Sigh. I still miss that car and have fantasies of buying an old one and dropping in one of those hot new 200 HP VW 2.0T units coupled to a 6-Speed tranny. Yum!

tallman1

Same here. I bought a brand new Datsun 200 SX in 1980. That car made a HUGE change in styling from 1979. And the 5 speed was a kick to drive. I had the coupe.... the hatchback didn't do much for me. I got plenty of looks from other drivers because the car really stood out.

Too bad the thing didn't last... never even looked at a Nissan after that. :sick:

habitat1

I bought a brand new Datsun 200 SX in 1980....Too bad the thing didn't last... never even looked at a Nissan after that.

Funny, after my 1978 Datsun B210GX, I thought the same thing. Fun car & great times, although it didn't last as long as I thought it should Died completely at 99k miles. But 17 years later, bought a 1995 Maxima SE that is still going strong at 155k miles.

I also bought a 1987 Acura Integra that gave me mechanical problems after 75k miles. But, in 2004/5 boght a TL 6-speed and MDX. The jury is still out on them.

Appears that I have a 17 year "memory" as it relates to "I won't buy that brand again".

nwng

I was fresh out of college at that time and need a new set of wheels. $8k out the door with COLD R12 a/c plus a made in japan yota. Served me very well for the next 5 yrs/120k mi and got $2500 when I sold it. to be honest, the non pwr steering was the best I've ever experienced. Everything else i've driven since then (1st, 2nd gen M3 and your garden variety 3 series) just didn't seem direct enough.

And it's got padded vinyl at the top of the driver's door where I could hang my elbow comfortably. My $26k ody has a made by tonka type material covering the same area.

Other choices I've considered: everyone of them has more features and better contents than the tercel:

civic DX - much much nicer inside and out, but is also $4k more.

sentra - about $1k more but too boxy for me

golf 3 dr - same price, a much more substantial built transportation. But a early 90's VW? Even I knew better at 22

Hyundai - knew friends who had 1st gen excel....

mazda 323 - $1k more, but the hatchback just looked weird

sorry domestic lovers, their products just aren't competitive in that range

nippononly

Whoa, $8K out the door, seriously? What year was your Tercel, and did you buy it new?

I didn't mean to demean the Tercel: Toyota's smallest car has always been a heck of a deal for transportation, even when it became the Echo and now the Yaris.

I thought Toyota skimped unconscionably by making the base car a 4-speed manual instead of a 5-speed, mostly just because it could (knowing people would buy it just because it was a Toyota, something Toyota is guilty of more and more as the years go by). The cost difference has to be very small, and as others here have noted, it made the base Tercel a throw-back to the 70s (or at least to the late 80s, the last time Honda put 4-speeds in the bottom of the Civic line).

Oh, and I really dislike vinyl seats just because of their lack of durability.

inaudible

i bought a 2007 honda fit with all the options, alum. wheels, all power, good sound system, etc... and was offered the same choice in trim as the auto-tragic buyers...

it really miffed me when i started noticing that noone really offers 5 spd. trannies any more... i honestly think the japanese are the only ones really keeping the enthusiast in mind (with the obvious exception of VW.) even though some of their cars are heinously underpowered, they're so much fun to drive (mainly because of the 5 spd.) i have wayyyy more fun driving my 109-hp fit around town than i have ever had in any suitably powered automatic (the most notably un-fun being chrysler, followed closely by hyundai.)

i used to work nights at an airport parking lot and i have to say i was suprised as to how many people drove stick... i would say easily 25% of the cars on the lot at any given time were 5-spd... of course, this isn't a scientific sampling of the public by any means, but it's good to know that people still drive stick (even if it is just because it's all they can afford.)

people just need to start teaching other people to drive it. i became a convert because some one REALLY taught me how to drive a clutch. it's so intimidating, but a good teacher goes a long way in those situations...

the benefits of 5spd. go a long way, you have the increase in motor function, increased attention to the road and other drivers, and frankly, cellphones are pretty much out of the question without a hands-free kit, lets not leave out the extra cash you'll have to take out your special someone when you don't have to replace a transmission when the computer screws up (who will incidentally think you're really cool 'cause you can drive stick -- this goes for girls and guys)

so there you have it, driving stick will get you laid.

boaz47

Well knowing how you feel about automatics one thing is for sure. You will not be looking at a 2012 Maxima.

qbrozen

I never used to mind the hit my stick-shift cars would take at trade time because, of course, they were cheaper in the first place. But nowadays there seem to be more and more instances where the stick does NOT save you any money when you purchase the car. Case in point is my '06 Accord 6-speed. It cost exactly the same as the automatic. However, I now come to find out that it is worth $1,000 less than an automatic! Ouch!!

I'm just thankful it is a lease! (and, go figure, but the residual was no less with the stick ... I'm sure Honda will wise up to that, if they haven't already)

nippononly

It's doubly unfair because stick shift cars sell better than dealers give you the impression they do.

I traded in my stick shift 4Runner early this year. The common wisdom was "a stick shift SUV? No-one will EVER want to buy it". Yet the dealer sold it a mere five days later, the first weekend it was on the lot.

Then after they have told the person trading it in that it's essentially worthless because of the stick, they turn around and tell the buyer that it is "extremely rare" and therefore commands a premium. :sick:

qbrozen

Oh, I've always been well aware that a stick is "rare" when you want to buy it, but "undesirable" when you want to sell it .... according to dealers, that is.

nwng

10 mi on the odo when bought.

I live in the NE and i have to put seat covers on.

when I sold the car i took off the seat covers, the vinyl was in tip top shape.

the last time civic had a 4sp was 1991. I would have bought it over the tercel if it was available

shipo

I've been leasing since the mid 1980s so I've been fairly insulated from the "desirable/undesirable" conundrum, however, I have a couple of stories that dove-tail with what you've been saying.

My wife had a fully loaded (even power windows and such) 1995 Plymouth Neon Sport Sedan 5-Speed that traded in on our first mini-van (we waited as long as we could because she didn't want to buy a minivan unless it had a stick). We made the trade on a Friday and over the course of the weekend we realized that the "Town Sticker" that allowed us to visit the recycling center and beach was still on the Neon. When I went back Monday and asked for the sticker our sales person said that some guy had a friend drive him up from Washington DC (we lived in Bergen County, New Jersey back then) the instant he found out the car had a stick. Yeesh!

Then in 2005 when I returned my fairly optioned up 2002 530i SP 5-Speed at lease end, I had to return it to a different dealership due to the fact that we'd moved up to New Hampshire a few months after my ED program 5er hit our shores. Ordinarily BMW dealers don't like taking in lease returns from other dealerships because they are often beat and take up lot space until BMW-FS comes to collect the car. I made an appointment for the drop off with a very unenthusiastic leasing manager for the last day of my lease (kind of hoping that they wouldn't accept the car and force me to keep it a little longer). Unfortunately, as soon as that same manager took one look at my car he said, "Oh yeah, we're keeping this one!"

"Uhhh, why? I thought you guys didn't like taking in lease cars from other dealers."

"We don't, but we can make some money off this one. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a 530i with both the Premium Package and the Sport Package and a stick shift?"

"Yeah, I've got a pretty good idea."

He was true to his word. The car was CPOed within two days and placed it on their lot. I tracked it via the BMW-USA web site for all of about eight days when it disappeared. After that happened I gave him a call and asked him what he got for it. "Would you believe thirty-six thousand."

Yeesh (again). I paid forty-two and change (due to the ED program) three years earlier. I then asked him what he would have gotten for the exact same car with an automatic. "Oh, thirty-three to thirty-four, certainly not more than that."

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

The dealers and manufacturing companies selling us what we ask for. It isn't a case of what is better it is simply what are people buying. In truth what the Asians or Europeans do doesn't matter one bit to the American buying public. It is what our neighbors do or have that counts. Remember designer Jeans. They were simply Levis with fancy names on them but everyone had ot have them. It is the same with cars. Cars to the average American is just like a toaster. It is supposed to work when you want it to and you can forget it when you don't need it. No one whats to be trained on how to make toast and no one wants a long training process to learn how to drive. If we learned to drive a stick fine but most people simply don't care. So a sales man simply sells what people are buying. He can't train you how to drive a stick if you already don't know and who will buy a stick without test driving it in the first place? So it is simple math. 9 out of ten people looking for a car want a Automatic of some kind. Some of the people that might want a stick discover to get the other options they like they have to ditch the stick so some more sales fall off. At some point the effort to produce a manual for the ever shrinking percentages would have to become more trouble than they are worth. The Japanese proved that with their limited options on engines compared to the domestics in the early days.

I might have to give in to some like Habitat that believe there will always be a niche market for manuals. But the mass market simply doesn't care enough one way or another to make the future bright for manuals.

It may also be a language thing between Americans and europeans. New and improved to people in Europe may mean more refined but to the American it almost always means easier to use. Even the most die hard manual user can not think it is easier to teach someone to drive a manual over an Automatic. If there is one thing that defines America it has to be the word convenience. And if there is a process we believe can can provide that definition it is Technology. Is technology always better? Maybe not but it is always more convenient.

lilengineerboy

It is what our neighbors do or have that counts. Remember designer Jeans. They were simply Levis with fancy names on them but everyone had ot have them.

I would whole heartedly beg to differ on that one. Having seen women in Levis and Bongo, Jordache, Rocky Mnts and a few others, I would say Levis were the jeans equivalent of a minivan, where as the "designer" jeans were more like an Alfa Romeo or Ferrari.

cdnpinhead

Some enjoy dancing on graves more than others.

I think you're the king.

habitat1

"Case in point is my '06 Accord 6-speed. It cost exactly the same as the automatic. However, I now come to find out that it is worth $1,000 less than an automatic! Ouch!!"

Your Accord experience is different than my TL experience. My Acura dealer will pay me full trade in value for my 2004 TL 6-speed in cash, without me purchasing another car. He gets so few TL 6-speeds, that he is willing to do that. He would not pay the same amount in cash for an automatic.

Similarly, my 2005 911 6-speed is worth at least as much as a tiptronic equiped one, even though Porsche charges $3,400 for that option. When I advertised it for sale last year (was thinking of trading for a different color 2007 model), I got 15+/- legitimate calls and would have gotten my full asking price had I not decided to keep it. I even got a call from a local owner of a Tiptronic model who was trying to sell his at the exact same time (advertised in Washington Post) and he wasn't getting hardly any calls.

I have no doubt that the market for manual transmissions is smaller than for automatics in most Accord type cars, but so is the supply. Whether you "take a hit" on resale, may depend on supply/demand at a particular time and location. And, at least in the case of the TL, they made the new model sporty enough - and included a sport suspension and Brembo brakes with the 6-speed model - that the demand is there among the enthusiasts who know the difference.

habitat1

I haven't remotely considered a Maxima since they bloated it up and started making it in the US. The 3,000 lb 4th generation (1995-1999) SE 5-speed, made in Japan, was the pinnacle of the Maxima, in my opinion. Putting a CVT transmission in it was only the final nail in the coffin. And, by the way, someting that Nissan is now paying for as their Maxima sales have tanked and the company just reported their worst financial performance in a decade.

andres3

Almost every caller, and there were many when we tried to sell this car a few years back, asked... is it manual or automatic.... almost all of them were disappointed it was an automatic!

I was surprised, but the demand for sticks is there!

dudleyr

The reason dealers have so many automatics is that they know anybody can drive one. They know that any manual they purchase will alienate some drivers. Rather than try to guess the right percentages of manuals and risk having one sit around they sometimes don't bother and just order all automatics. More than one dealer here on Edmunds has confirmed this mindset.

In Europe where people don't need to have everything in an instant, and there is not really the desire or the room for mega dealerships, people order most of their cars, so they can get exactly what they want. The car dealer has less influence because he does not have to guess what the customer wants and try to order what fits the most people.

boaz47

You may have a point. I guess there is nothing we can do one way or another so it is best to just sit back and see what happens. But it has been interesting speculating on the trends. You are correct. I have been a bit like someone celebrating in the locker room before the game is over. Sorry.

nippononly

Don't start the celebration just yet, boaz. Manuals are down but FAR from out! ;-)

boaz47

I know Nippon. But cdnpinhead has a point. The ones pulling for the manual transmission are pulling for them from their heart and no amount of numbers or trends will change that. The very idea that these forums are fill with people that might be considered enthusiasts. I will admit there is a skill factor to manuals. It just doesn't seem to be a skill that many of the masses care about. Enthusiasts however are another story.

Even if I were proven right my contentions would be an insult to the people that enjoy manuals as they are. That is indeed dancing on a grave. I often forget that some people enjoy a tool long after that tool is no longer the state of the art. When I had a sail boat I spent a long time learning how to use a Sextant. I bought all of the charts and tables and had to have a watch that was reset with a electronic signal. I still have friends that try and keep up with taking a sighting but I haven't seen a boat without a GPS in so long I can't remember who owned it. I sold my Sextant when they started making GPS units for under $400.00. Sextants may be more labor intensive and no where near as easy to use but some people still enjoy the skill.

bristol2

The sail boat itself is the anachronism, not the sextant.

But I totally support you being able to use your anachronism.

habitat1

The sail boat itself is the anachronism, not the sextant.

Bingo. To think someone would rely on the wind to power a boat in this day and age is indeed an insult to technological advancement.

boaz47

the two best days in a boat owners life. So I am satisfied.

cdnpinhead

Yeah, but I got to sail at night to the San Juans from West Vancouver, as well as going from Victoria to Wrangell, AK, all before there was such a thing as GPS. The hand-bearing compass was my best friend (with a chart, of course), but the RDF was helpful as well, along with the depth sounder. I bought my lighted hand-bearing compass from Kelvin-Hughes (a ship chandler, BTW) in Vancouver way back in the day.

Now, any moron with $300 knows exactly their position, within 10 or 20 feet.

I still enjoy that I know how to do it otherwise, much as I enjoy my manual transmission, even beyond the fact that it never breaks and costs less to fix if it does.

And. . .I can run a sextant. I have the tables (books) to this day, but my sextant was stolen (along with my beloved hand-bearing compass) during the process of selling my boat.

Oh well. . .