Stories from the Sales Frontlines

kyfdx

A lot of new cars require you to have your foot on the brake to move them out of park... Not sure about starting them, though... My wife's automatic doesn't require that...

(my car is a stick, of course)

EDIT: push-button start... yeah, you have to have your foot on the brake..

graphicguy

I've mentioned, I've been to the two Lexus (Lexi?) stores around here before. I was interested in the IS350 at one point when it first came out. Both stores are owned by the same person. Trying to deal with them is next to impossible. I made what I thought was a strong offer on one IS350 they both had (same color and options), that I liked quite well. Actually, my offer was $1,000 over invoice, which is really stepping up for me. They didn't counter. The sales person didn't even want to take my offer to the SM. He acted like he was doing me a HUGE favor by offering $500 off of MSRP (which still netted them 2-3 thousand over invoice, IIRC).

True to my word, I walked.

One of the two stores did a follow up phone call wanting to know if I was still interested in making a deal. I said perhaps, but we were too far apart on price. I told him we were at least $1,500 apart. He didn't urge me to come back in, nor to counter. He just said to keep him in mind if I changed my mind.

That experience probably will keep me out of a Lexus dealership whenever I'm in the market for a new car, again.

In truth, I was OK with that, too. I have another friend who owns an LS. Those are worse than BMWs or Mercedes to pay for routine service. This is according to him because his wife drives a Mercedes E Series.

Now I understand how that Lexus dealer can afford a marble showroom with the huge lake and water fountain in front of it.

kyfdx

That's a really pretty showroom, though...

driver100

really driver? are you sure you don't mean clutch?

You are correct...so in a BMW with manual....you have to have the clutch depressed for it to start, even when in nutral. Brake doesn't matter.

I believe my X3, automatic, needed the brake depressed in order to start it.

I depress the brake when starting anyways, because that is what I was taught in "how to be a driving instructor course".

isellhondas

Lexus watched while other stores slowly cuit their throats by "cheap selling" cars.

They decided that they weren't going to do that. They decided that they weren't going to let their customers determine what a "fair" profit was and that they would sell their cars for what they thought they were worth.

I say, more power to them! It's just too bad other places cave in and let the "Invoice Buyers" slowly kill their profits.

I don't blame you for wanting a good deal but I would hate to see you settle for a second or third choice because you are so concerned about how much profit a store may be making on the deal.

jipster

I don't blame you for wanting a good deal but I would hate to see you settle for a second or third choice because you are so concerned about how much profit a store may be making on the deal

It sounded to me like gg was more annoyed with the attitude Lexus gave him than price, i.e doing him a HUGE favor by offering $500 off MSRP. Good communication skills by the sales staff can make all the difference in the world when it comes to a customer paying more than he wants. The dealership should have apologized they couldn't reach a deal, saying they were sorry and the price given is as low as they could go. I think most people would be able to accept something like that... maybe either up their offer, or at worst not write off the brand. Instead they pull out the old, "we're too good to offer our cars made in heaven for so little" brush off they gave gg.

deltheking

A follow up post regarding my Ebay purchase.First up,thanks to everyone for responding. And I did not go through with the ebay listing I provided. I actually went with another Ebay listing - this was for the 08 Honda Pilot instead of the previous 05 one . The 08 still had factory warr left + had 3rd row even though it had no leather.I also called the 05 dealer and asked his reserve- it was $14800- I thought it was a pretty good deal for 14.8 and it ultimately sold for $15k to a happy buyer I guess. :shades:

This is the 08 Honda Pilot that I bought on Ebay online:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190467455411&viewi- - - - - - - tem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

I also did not want to break my cardinal rule while buying on Ebay - not to buy a Northeast car as it is exposed to salt and ice. I always buy cars from the south like Texas,Alabama,Florida etc unless it is less than 1 or 2 yr old and it was in great shape.

The total price I paid was $19.3k including dealer fee +shipping from Houston to NY [about 1500 miles]. The Pilot appears to be in great shape and will be shipped on Monday and reach NY by Thursday. And it's a smoke free car -- as it is mentioned in the ad and the dealer also said this on the phone. This dealer is a reputed dealer -he has sold 1100+ cars on Ebay with 100% positive feedback . He just emailed us the bill of sale document-we signed it and sent him back and wire transferred the money for $19.3k. The best thing is the dealer has a take back program within 5 days of us receiving the SUV if we are not satisfied with it but we pay the return shipping and the cost of shipping to NY is not refundable. :P

So $19.3k for an 08 Honda Pilot driven in Texas all its life,30k miles,factory warr intact,3rd row seat,preferred color:silver ext+grey int [color is a non entity frankly but silver is a pretty good color],shipped to NY -- I think we got a good deal. My brother is happy with it. This is the 6th Ebay online car purchase for us.My personal preference would have been the Toyota Highlander but all were $23k and above.For me that would be tough to accept as I bought a fully loaded 3 yr old Lexus GX SUV with all available options and 30k miles on Ebay from Florida for $27k. :shades:

oldfarmer50

"...in a BMW with manual...you have to have the clutch depressed for it to start..."

My 1988 GMC van requires that too. Seems to make sense so you don't jump the car forward by accident. I seem to remember way back when that old VW bugs could be moved around just on the starter motor by putting them in gear and cranking. I'm no expert on manuals though. The old van is the first one I've ever owned.

In my original post I was talking about moving the shift lever on an automatic without stepping on the brake. All my modern cars require you to step on the brake to move the shift lever but not to start it.

oldfarmer50

...color is a non entity but silver is a pretty good color..."

I'm glad you took my advice to get silver. You will thank me this winter.

I also like your thinking about not buying from the northeast. Rust is the biggest hazard for cars here. Almost all of my old cars have died of cancer long before they died of old age. It breaks my heart.

driver100

The 08 still had factory warr left + had 3rd row even though it had no leather

Congratulations, nice purchase. I think for the extra amount it is great to get a newer car with less miles on it. It sounds like an excellent buy. You have learned to play the EBay game very well and have had a lot of success.

I don't think I could do it, but I can see how well it worked for you.

driver100

All my modern cars require you to step on the brake to move the shift lever but not to start it.

I think since the Audi's that they thought jumped forward on their own, manufacturers have been making it so you have to have your foot on the brake when you start.

It certainly doesn't hurt, and could save a lot of grief.

jayrider

Nice truck -- you did realize that it was front wheel drive --- seems I read about an issue in that regard. With decent tires, you'll be fine in snow. If it gets real bad, I stay home.

deltheking

Yes,northeast cars can rust fast even if the mileage is low just to exposure to snow and salt. And Silver ,I think is pretty much liked unanimously by all. :P

deltheking

Driver, I dont think I can buy a car ever again traditionally- going to the dealer, negotiating, waiting for the paperwork,sitting in the finance room etc etc. Just sitting on my chair,infront of the internet and in about 10-15 min, I am done. Of course I know what car I want to buy-so that makes it easier. :shades:

deltheking

Yes,we knew it was FWD. And even though we were buying an SUV,never do we go off the road . A Camry would have sufficed frankly,but just wanted a 3 seater reliable SUV with high driving position,room for 5-6 folks and decent cargo space.

oldfarmer50

Has anyone else noticed this?

As you know I have an affinity for old low mile bargain cars so I look at a lot of ads for older cars. Lately I've notice that dealers are talking about how many miles per year a car has on it rather than state the actual miles. For example a 10 year old car with 120,000 miles will be said to have "only 12,000 miles per year".

Do they really think they're fooling anyone?

I just saw an ad for a 15 year old car with "just 14,000 miles per year".

Math was never my strong suit but even I can figure out that this car has over 200K miles.

oldfarmer50

"...Yes, we knew it was FWD..."

I don't recall where in NY you said you were from but the upside of all the salt use is that you almost never really need AWD to get around. You also get pretty good at figuring the limits of your vehicle in winter driving. I've never seen the need for it and I've been on NY roads since the 60s.

AWD can sometimes work against the unknowledgeable driver. Every winter the first cars to end up on their roofs are the AWDs and the 4X4s driven by overconfident yet clueless drivers.

imidazol97

>15 year old car with "just 14,000 miles per year".

That's easy to do by splitting the 15 into 10 and 5. 10 x 14,000 is 140,000,
5 x 14,000 would be half of what the 10 was time 14,000 = 70,000.
140,000 + 70,000 = 210,000 miles.

What shape was the car in? The fellow down the road specialized in 200,000 mile GM products for a while, especially H-bodies. He said they're good for 300,000 miles when they have been well maintained.

jwilliams2

FWD works fine in New England for all but the heaviest snow storms. They do an amazing job of clearing the roads here in Connecticut.

isellhondas

Agree. No excuse for a cocky attitude if that is what happened.

Still, not all cars have to be "cheap sold"

driver100

For example a 10 year old car with 120,000 miles will be said to have "only 12,000 miles per year"

I don't think it will ever stop. That tops the "Bi-Monthly" lease payments and the payments "after trading in your $10,000 used car"-which is in small print.

We've even had cash back.

But miles per year is ingenius. Wonder what will be next? Driven just 35 miles per day! (12000 divided by 365)

imidazol97

>But miles per year is ingenius. Wonder what will be next? Driven just 35 miles per day!

It worked for the carpet stores. Carpet that used to be priced by the square yard is priced by the square foot: sounds so much cheaper. Next will be pricing by square inch.

sterlingdog

Congratulations on the new ride. I'm glad that you considered looking at the '08. It's newer with more advantages. Silver is a nice universal color for most people. You certainly are a brave soul. I could never purchase a car on E-Bay. Still, you have had great success in doing so. Do some of these E-Bay "dealers" actually have real dealerships in those cities? If so, have you ever purchased a car from a private party on E-Bay?

Richard

sterlingdog

Regardless of the price, it would be the arrogance that would bother me the most. I'm willing to meet any dealer half way, but don't make me feel as if you are doing me a favor. Actually, I'm doing YOU a favor by considering your brand and your dealership.

Richard

sterlingdog

Here's the one that I love: BUY ONE AT REGULAR PRICE AND GET THE SECOND ONE 50% OFF.

Richard

deltheking

Nowadays AWD is not necessary for winters especially as cars have ABS and more importantly Electronic stability control ESC. Infact ESC is more vital than AWD in winter driving. Rarely do we see roads with inches of snow . All the roads are cleared pretty fast nowadays and in those conditions ESC is useful as it prevents fishtailing . AWD is mostly if you are stuck in inches of snow or mud.

deltheking

Totally agree.All but the very remote roads are cleared very fast nowadays. :shades:

deltheking

You just cant go wrong with Silver. I don't know anyone tthat hates silver. Maybe they dont like it a lot,but not hate it. The most love hate color is Black.Folks either adore it or absolutely hate it. And I am talking about the common colors here- not the really rare weird ones like purple/violet , pink,bright yellow. :P

Yes, we have bought quite a few cars on Ebay and I just cant go back to buying the traditional way. Almost all of these Ebay dealers are real physical dealerships. In the link for the Pilot I provided- if you scroll down you can see the huge dealership pictures ,the inventory,the showroom and even the owner's photo.

Regarding private party- I don't think I would buy from a private party simply b'cos they would not have a great idea about the sale paperwork and as they have a regular job there can be a delay in contacting them . Plus you have to arrange your own shipping sometimes or if they arrange they themselves would not know much. Also,not all of them would have an idea of the condition of their cars. Plus dealers buff out all the scratches and fix the dings and dents and really detail the car to pristine condition - something a private owner can't do. Basically they are less experienced than a dealer who does these everyday. Less of a hassle dealing with dealers . :shades:

And the most important thing is the seller feedback on Ebay. Most of these dealers have tens and hundreds of sales ,some with thousands-- and they have 99% or 100% feedback. And these are actual transactions,actual buyers with actual sales. So just a bit of research on the seller on ebay and take some time to get familiar with Ebay bidding and buying and anyone can buy a car online!! :P

jimbres

Yes,northeast cars can rust fast even if the mileage is low just to exposure to snow and salt.

FYI: most municipalities in the greater NY metro area no longer use salt. AFAIK, all of the towns on Long Island, where I live, use sand.

Don't know what areas further north use.

driver100

Carpet that used to be priced by the square yard is priced by the square foot

That was a subtle changeover. I remember when carpets were sold by the yard, now it is the foot.

I did hear an ad on the radio today that used this technique for selling Jetta's. The guy orders a latte and the barista says that will be $6.75 or something. And the guy says, hmmm, I could lease a brand new Jetta with German engineering, for the cost of one latte a day, just $199 a month.

Actually, it does make you think. For example the cost of a pack of cigarettes a day,
2 beers at the bar, the price of a dessert at a restaurant OR, a new car!

graphicguy

kyfdx....yeah....that Lexus dealer does have a very pretty showroom.....probably the nicest showroom I've ever seen. I guess somebody has to pay for that.

isell....I understand what you're saying. It's not like I was trying to do an "invoice deal" with the dealership. I think it's more a case that there is no local competition for them. The same owner has two Lexus dealerships in the general area. And, one of them is actually down kdfx's way just across the OH River in KY. The other is in the northeastern suburbs of Cincinnati. If you want a Lexus, and you want to stay relatively local, those are your only two choices. They don't have to compete against each other since they're owned by the same person.

The customer loses as a result. No competition means no price breaks.

I'm not sure how many others have walked as a result. But, it seems to be working for the dealerships since, as mentioned, they just built one that looks almost like a palace. Their service charges are high compared to the likes of other lux brands, too.

There's an Infiniti dealer, and Acura dealer, and a Porsche dealer within 5 miles of one Lexus dealer. I wonder if any of them benefit from the Lexus dealer's local monopoly?

graphicguy

driver....I've not heard those VW advertisements down my way. But, what a way to sell your cars...comparing the cost to a cup of coffee.

You mentioned cigarettes, a friend of my son's, who's smoked at least a pack/day is trying to quit based on financing a new car as motivation.

What I didn't realize is how expensive smoking cigs really is. He said he pays $60/week for a carton. :surprise: That's $240 month he's setting aside to put a down payment on, and make monthly payments for, a new car.

Pretty good motivation to quit in my estimation.

driver100

I don't think I would buy from a private party simply b'cos they would not have a great idea about the sale paperwork

I like the way this deal went down, as you say, no muss, no fuss...send in your bid. I particularly like the way you get the paperwork and send it back, all nice and efficient. Also, the fact you can return it if you don't like it makes it pretty foolproof, obviously the dealer doesn't want to waste time and money getting a car back.

I have 2 questions for you;
1) You buy from dealers and you saw the car was shown on a car lot. How do you always know you are buying from a physical dealership?
2) Do you prefer to buy most things on a computer? I have observed many people prefer to do most things on a computer, while some want to be face to face. If I wanted to buy a laptop computer I would go to a few stores and look at them. Our IT expert at work would look online and order it that way. The question is, are you more of a computer communicator than an in your face communicator?

I am really amazed at the whole transaction. I have ordered books and DVDs (weight training stuff so I can learn what to do and have a session that I have to keep up with (sorry you know who - I know it's a preposition but I don't have time to reconstruct the sentence) from Amazon and it is easier than going to 2 separate stores and having to park, go to the store, hope they have it, wait in line, deal with a disgruntled cashier, etc. Whereas Amazon has free shipping over $25 and send it right to your home.

driver100

. But, what a way to sell your cars...comparing the cost to a cup of coffee.

And, what I forgot to mention GG is when he realizes he could lease a Jetta for that price he cancels the latte.

That is kind of funny...of course they don't mention the tax, license fees, mop n glo etc but the ad might make some people think.

I was reading how most of the wealthy people in North America are really average people who even though they have a lot of money, they don't spend it easily. They don't drive the newest fanciest cars and they don't eat at the fancy restaurants. Your son's friend might be learning a valuable lesson by using his money to buy a car, rather than on cigarettes.

imidazol97

You have to know, Bass is a store I like but I consider only the actual end sale pricing buys T-shirts for myself and various types of clothes for our son. Usually things are 50% off the ridiculously high suggested price, and then something like 20% off of that and one certain sale days or for card holding customers another 10% off of that. They have price cards on most of the tables showing the current sell price given the initial suggested price.

So if the original price is $100, buy one and you get two free. But if you buy one it's $40 instead of $33 on the 2 with 1 sale. But with the discounted pricing, there may be another percent discount.


Another ad from a store owned by same company as Bass and Izod ( and a couple of others ).
Still buy some shirts there.

deltheking

These sellers have detailed photos in their ads. Also you can simply search their name on Google and you can find info about them . The most important thing is the customer feedback on Ebay b'cos these are actual real people who have paid real money and then post feedback. The dealers if they are top rated sellers get all awards from EBay that they display. Like-this dealer was a "Titanium " seller. IT is for sellers who have very good feedback and sales. The crucial thing is even 1 negative feedback can affect the dealer b'cos as cars are big ticket items ,folks would be very vary of dealers who have less than stellar reputation and feedback. :shades:

Sometimes,though the customers can have way too high expectations- I saw a negative feedback for a dealer from a customer who bought a car for $1450 and expected it in great condition. I mean,c'mon for that price obviously it will have dings,dents and it wont be perfect. But folks can figure it out that he is not necessarily a bad dealer- that`s why reading a feedback on a seller is vital. :P

Also Ebay has $50k Ebay protection package if the car is grossly misrepresented, a salvage title not disclosed etc.

driver100

Usually things are 50% off the ridiculously high suggested price,

Those ads seem so confusing. On the surface, I guess buy 1 and get 2 free means you are paying 33% of the original rice to buy something. A $100 item gets you 2 free so they cost $33 each. If you buy one item you will get 60% off so will pay $40.

For most items, I would probably rather get one item at 60% off, than have to buy 3 items for 66% off....unless I really needed 3. Is it worth getting an additional 6% off to buy 3 pairs of pajamas if you only needed one? (especially if you don't wear pajamas).

I guess GET 2 FREE looks a lot better in an ad!

jwilliams2

It's not like I was trying to do an "invoice deal" with the dealership. I think it's more a case that there is no local competition for them.

Probably not just your local dealer. I remember when the IS350 first came out the boards here on Edmunds were full of people nationwide stating that they couldn't get any discount at all. The dealers were all sticking to MSRP. Some were throwing in free window tinting or something small. Of course as usual, that all changed once the car had been out a while.

driver100

Also Ebay has $50k Ebay protection package if the car is grossly misrepresented

I am still amazed at how well this can work. Now, answer about the question do you prefer to buy most things on a computer. Would you buy these items on a computer, or by going to a store:
TV, netbook, laptop, computer monitor, refrigerator, carpet, snow thrower, clothes etc.?

deltheking

I buy almost all my things online. The only things I buy in stores are shoes,clothes and groceries. As I mention groceries, I must say,as I am in NYC this year[6months left]-- I am shopping them online. Not even going to the store for groceries anymore. There is a service called "Peapod" from the supermarket chain Stop and Shop where you can order whatever groceries you want online and then even select your preferred delivery date and time[a 2 hr window]. I choose the 8am-10am period on Saturday. And prices are one of the best in NYC. They charge $7 for orders $60 and below,$4 for orders above $60. Boy.just cant beat that convenience. Even milk,yogurt,meat ,whatever you want. You an browse the grocery aisles on the website.Can nicely read the Edmunds forums on a lazy Sat morning instead of grocery shopping with all those crowded lanes,maddening traffic and no parking spots.

With respect to electronics-many store salesfolks have no idea about how good a product is. They just read the info that is displayed there. :confuse:
I read reviews online and buy from Ebay and Amazon but Newegg is very good for electronics. I buy mostly from Ebay,Newegg, Dell Outlet or Tiger direct.Searching on Amazon is tough and time consuming compared to others. :P

Regarding car buying online-- yes the paperwork is no muss,no fuss as you said. The dealer emails the bill of sale ,odometer disclosure statement ,clear title statement-- you sign it and then fax or scan them back to them- and that's it-- just wait for the car to be delivered at your doorstep literally and figuratively. :shades:

roadburner

Probably not just your local dealer. I remember when the IS350 first came out the boards here on Edmunds were full of people nationwide stating that they couldn't get any discount at all. The dealers were all sticking to MSRP. Some were throwing in free window tinting or something small. Of course as usual, that all changed once the car had been out a while.

I paid sticker for my MS3, which I thought was a pretty good deal- every other dealer I contacted had ADM stickers on their MS3s which added $2,000-$5,000 to the bottom line.

oldfarmer50

"...= 210,000 miles..."

LOL. Thanks for the math help. I was just kidding about my math skills.

"...What shape was the car in?..."

Never got beyond the ad because my interest lies in low milage older cars and because the way the dealer tried to disguise the milage made me not trust him.

Also this particular dealer had gotten several angry posts made on this site (Craigslist) about the quality of his cars.

snakeweasel

Almost all of my old cars have died of cancer long before they died of old age.

Cars today have a lot of rust proofing done at the factory so rusting out really isn't a problem unless the car has been damaged some way. Here in the Midwest where we have a lot of snow and still use salt a lot the "rust bucket" is a rare sight.

imidazol97

>I was just kidding about my math

Just trying to be helpful. :shades: shades

oldfarmer50

"...Don't know what areas further north use..."

Most here in upstate use a mixture of salt and sand. Maybe to keep cost down or maybe it improves traction, not sure. This combo IMO is the worst thing possible as the sand blasts off your paint and lets the salt go to work on the metal. I try to park my good cars in the garage for a week after they apply salt and let it get blown/worn off the roads. Even then I'll limit my driving and wash the undercarriage at the self-service place soon afterwards.

If I can't avoid the salted roads I just drive one of the many junkers which seem to pop up in my driveway like mushrooms.

oldfarmer50

"...He said he pays $60/week for a carton..."

In NY he'd pay $90 a carton. The taxes are so high on smokes that it has spawned a whole new breed of "Soccer Mom Smugglers". These people drive their mini-vans down to VA where the taxes are low and bring back several hundred cartons for the people at work, neighbors and themselves. :confuse:

Now there would be a sales story---"How to rate mini-vans for their smuggling potential" :sick:

isellhondas

A few years back, I went throug an AutoByTel class where there were a lot of salespeople from other stores.

A very nice Lexus guy asked me.." How can you put up with all of the mooches that buy Hondas and WHY do you guys let the buyers do this to you?"

He said Lexus simply refuses to bow to the customers who want to dictate what they think should be an acceptable profit.

Now, this guy seemed to be anything but arrogant and he was a real professional who had been there a long time.

He would tell his customers..." I know you are looking for good value. " Why don't I take 500-750.00 off of the MSRP for you?"

He said they usually left feeling good about their purchase but other times he would just tell them.." I understand. There are other cars out there you can probably buy for near the invoice price...maybe you should look at one of those instead"

I repsect that. I know that guy sold a LOT of cars!

isellhondas

I never smoked but when I was in the Army in the early 70's, a CARTON of cigarettes was 2.10 in the PX.

I watched a guy pay 10.00 for a PACK in a bar recently!

murphydog

Isell - great points, I never understood why a buyer would discuss the dealers profit levels?

When I bought my last two cars I had a figure that I was going for and that is what we went back and forth on, no discussion on my income or other stuff (mortgage, kids, etc) and no discussion on their profit, or incentives or anything.

The salesmen stumbled a bit when he said he showed me "too much car" and I nearly walked, but instead I took that as a sigh of weakness and stuck to my guns.

Price I am willing to pay is based on the value I see in the car - if the dealer does not agree no hard feelings - though I do laugh when potential buyers get all pissed when a dealer does not agree on an offer...

mako1a

I was doing the offer/acceptance thing quite a while back when I noticed the salesguy seemed to be getting upset.

I said "it's only business". That seemed to calm him down instantly.
I didn't buy from him. I rarely get emotionally involved in a car purchase because "it's only business".
However, it still bothers me to see Corvettes and Mustangs sitting out in the snow.