"None that post here are satisfied when the dealer makes thousands"
Is that so? Go check the Mercedes board, or the BMW, or the Lexus... etc.
And if "those are highline" is going to be the explanation, try looking at the FJ Cruiser, or the Prius for that matter.
Plenty of happy customers paying all the cheese (and then some... we are $4995 over on FJ's and sell every one) :shades: . Our survey rating on those vehicles is currently 97%. Supply and demand in action...
Kinda makes you wonder how happy everyone would be if they paid more? :P
I can say from experience it is undoubtedly the customers that pay the most that are the happiest on average. On occasion there will be an exception, but industry-wide, that is the rule of thumb.
Kinda makes you wonder how happy everyone would be if they paid more?
I can say from experience it is undoubtedly the customers that pay the most that are the happiest on average. On occasion there will be an exception, but industry-wide, that is the rule of thumb.
I was taught when I got into this business that "Gross makes friends". This means that somewhere along the lines you have clicked with the customer and you made price secondary because you have demonstrated exactly why the customer needs this car right now. The customers that you make the most moeny on are the ones that will love you the most and give you great surveys, referrals, etc...
The grinders who spend three weeks driving all over the place pitting dealer against dealer and then spending hours grinding the last dollar, are the unhappiest in the end.
They leave with the feeling that just maybe, someone else paid less than they did. They are the ones who will get in a final dig by giving a hard working salesperson a lousy survey.
We see these people later at the cashier trying to use a long expired service coupon. We see these people pointing out a small scratch in the bumper that "wasn't there before you worked on it"
What a miserable way to go through life, but, hey, we are all different.
I've got no problem with what you said provided dealer/salesman doesn't willfully make clearly false statements that could influence overall cost of transaction - such as: 1. telling one that extended warranty is required on their deal when it's not, 2. adding fee when it is not allowed (certain supplier programs or other types), 3. selling vehicle as certified preowned when inspection was not up to the standards 4. stating that someone's credit score is 650 when it is 720 5. saying GAP is required by the bank when it's not
Etc.
If you say: "with your 720 score our offer is 10.5%" - no problem. If someone accpets it - tough luck. When you say "You have only 650 score that's why 10.5% APR" - no. That is a straight-up lie, in my book unacceptable conduct that should be prosecuted if possible.
We see these people pointing out a small scratch in the bumper that "wasn't there before you worked on it"
Had a chiseler try this on the dealership once. He was the worst person in the world to deal with, guaranteed lousy survey and just a generally nasty sort of person. He comes in with his sons 1 year old Accord. Has a jagged looking cut in the rear bumper cover. Obvious ( to me anyway) impact mark and abrasions around the cut area. He swore up and down that the car had never backed into anything and that the cut bumper cover was from freezing and thawing. Demanded that the bumper cover be replaced under warranty. Our dealership will sometimes " goodwill" repairs like this for free so as not to lose a customer. I saw the guy come into service and witnessed the whole exchange. I went to the service manager and asked him if I could be the one to ut this car up on the rack and inspect it. ( I'm a salesman not a technician). As soon as the car was in the air it was very apparent from underneath that this car had been in an impact somewhere. There was a strut that holds the bumper out that was obviously bent. I took several pictures with our service depts. digital camera and walked out to tell him that we would not be paying for his repair that day that it was customer caused and not ours or Hondas responsibility to repair. It was one of the most satisfying feelings I have had as a car salesman to personally ask this gentleman not to return.
I agree. Unfortunately all of the methods you mention largely boil down to semantics. We have camera's in our F&I offices and it is downright hillarious when that random customer "swears" F&I told him he had to buy something, only to have the tape reveal that's not what happened at all.
Does it ever really happen? Yup. And I am against it 110%. In reality though, I truly believe that only in about 1 in 10 times is the complaint legit. Other times, one of their relatives or friends told them "you did WHAT?!?!" after the fact, and in the process of trying to save some face, they accuse us.
them "you did WHAT?!?!" after the fact, and in the process of trying to save some face, they accuse us.
It's certainly very possible. Don't know about percentages, but I may agree that many if not most are the way you describe it.
And of course there are lies and there are lies. When I bought my new car four years ago, I bough extended warranty based on his strong claim it would be more expensive to buy it later. Of course then I learned that the price is the same for as long as the original warranty lasts - it woudl of course increase afterwards. I was almost entirely sure it was not true but he sounded so convincing I succumbed to it. No big harm done, as I realized I wanted that warranty anyway. I wasn't running around and screaming afterwards, but a little bitter taste was left. Especially that the dealership was actually one of the "better ones" with reputation of high professionalism and honesty. Yet, small lies were still used just to make the final push...
Technically it would be more expensive to buy it later though right (after the original expired)? I pretty much agree it's a lame thing to do though
One thing to consider though, it's sometimes nice to be able to include the extended warranty in your financing. If you wait until after the loan is processed, the price might not go up, but you won't have the option of only having your payment going up a few bucks to get it.
definitely think we've made a detour from sales frontline stories. Humor often loses something in the translation to posting.
Ya, translation lost there. Just trying to point out how ridiculous the whole situation was. Ahh well. None of what happened was right there, but man some funny things happened. I guess it was one of those situations where you needed to be there.
I know it's been a risky proposition with telling some of your stories here madmanmoo, but I've enjoyed them. You are honest to tell a side we (nonsales folk) don't often get to read of. Hope to hear some more about the "Psycho".
Filming the completion of the sale w/the business manager is a common practice. It prevents a later he said/she said conflict. The dealership and the buyer are both protected. It should be an industry standard.
And if you've NEVER had a customer that, after a little salesmanship, felt buyers remorse and tried to blame F&I for it, I would probably say that your F&I department has gone the way of Circus Lemonade...
Plenty of happy customers paying all the cheese (and then some... we are $4995 over on FJ's and sell every one) . Our survey rating on those vehicles is currently 97%. Supply and demand in action...
I never fell in love with a car so paying close to MSRP and over MSRP is completely foreign to me. However, since this seems to happen more than a few times this why settling for a mini that takes no time to consummate should not be a problem for you. Grab a quick little buck and move on to the killings.
See, you can have it both ways.
Kinda makes you wonder how happy everyone would be if they paid more?
I don’t blame you for trying and I’m sure you do but I know you couldn’t pull that on the posters here or any informed buyer for that matter.
Like I’ve said before, aren’t the MSRP buyers the ones that pay the mortgage?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
See that's the whole problem. The "grinders" (not saying you are one of them necessarily) think they are the easiest deal on the planet. In reality, they are the ones that complain the most on our surveys because the "process took too long", even though they were the ones that wanted to negotiate until we split the last penny of holdback.
I post on this board, and I paid MSRP. I don't treat my car like just an appliance though. I love cars, no way around saying it. Could I have waited, or even gone somewhere else to save a few bucks? Probably.
Instead, I pulled the trigger on a car that was what I wanted, when I wanted it, and for a payment I could afford. I also got a hot product before anyone else, and love her very much .
See, to many people (myself included), a car IS an emotional item. If I want something bad enough, I will most definitely pay extra for it. I am not alone, and evidently, neither was the guy who just bought our last FJ Cruiser for $4995.00 over MSRP.
Just don't kid yourself into thinking "grinders" are the easiest deals. They aren't. And talk about headaches after the sale... As a salesperson, you'd better HOPE the car is flawless or you'll be sure to never hear the end of it.
I can honestly say that every bad survey I've ever gotten has been on someone I made LESS than $1000 in profit on.
Hmmm... I don't think of myself as a grinder. I've always had good luck buying under invoice and have always given the dealer sales good marks on the survey. I've also figured out the dealers that are good to work with. I stay away from the bad ones. I'm sure there are some real jerks out there, on both sides of the aisle.
Everyone that pays ver MSRP comes to regret it eventually. People were paying 5 grand over MSRP for GTOs when they first came out. How much would that smart now?
the post..."I also got a hot product before anyone else, and love her very much ", I wasn't sure if we were talking about cars or he was referring to his new young wife.....:):):):)...oops...
We aren't married yet, but she's pretty, doesn't demand much (gas), and I sure do enjoy her company!
I'll spare the innuendo about how nice her ride is LOL
And as for the GTO analogy, I'd say the last thing on the minds of an enthusiast willing to pay 5k over is how much they overpaid. They are more concerned about being the first ones to have em, and to them, that's worth a premium.
In general, I think the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves.
I feel great about paying MSRP. My car is worth every penny! I don't live my life worrying about such trivial things. Especially when it comes to getting something that makes me happy.
Even though it is hard to believe, I can accept that some people "are more concerned about being the first ones to have em, and to them, that's worth a premium."
I guess that makes them happy for a week or so until a lot of other people are driving the same type of car.
However, I am puzzled by your comment that "the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves."
Walked into an ACURA store ready to buy an RSX base with manual tranz.
Tell the sales guy another dealer offered me an OTD price of 22,000 (actually offered OTD of 22,450) can you come close?
Sales guy says he only has RSX with leather. I say fine .. match the price and we have a deal. We sit down and out comes .... drum roll please .... salesguys chime in here now ..
THE 4 SQUARE.
I tell him, you don't need that. He responds , what payment are you looking for? Me: NO payment ... CASH deal .. match the price Him: Let me get some info .. Name, address, phone number Me: I stop at name. Can you do the deal or not? Him: I just need this info Me: No you don't .. all you need is my name and offer Him: My mangers need this info Me: No they don't. You are merely collecting data for future solicitations. If you make the deal THEN I will give you my info. Now, would you like me to walk to the tower and give them my offer or will you? Him: What dealer gave you the offer? Me: Does it really matter? It was a local one within 15 miles Him: I'll be right back 5 mins goes by. Him: The best I can do is 22,950 OTD Me: 22,500 OTD (as I slide the 4 square back to him) Him: Since we are $450.00 apart would you split the difference with me? Me: NO, My FINAL offer 22,500 OTD (I should have said my FINAL offer is 22,250 OTD) but since he had caved in on the info issue AND was willing to work with me, I didn't push the issue) 10-15 mins goes by and he emerges not with some closer or a sales manager but by himself, stating we have a deal.
Now, this whole time he has NO idea I am in the same business and I don't even tell him or allude to it. Sometimes these things are better left unsaid.
He does go on & on about are you 100% satisfied, right. You will get a call about blah blah blah. He was alluding to the survey. He never came right out and said YOU WILL GET A SURVEY, I NEED 100% OR ELSE but he did beat around the bush about it.
Anyway, the final end is that I got the car for $253.00 OVER invoice and I did give the guy 100% on his survey.
But it was a win-win. I got the car at a saisfactory price and the store sold a car. Maybe he made a mini, maybe it made his unit bonus, maybe it was a looser deal, maybe it was a skinny deal and they needed it for midmonth numbers. The only ones who know are the salesman & the manager.
As for me, I chalked it up as a decent buying experience. I might have grinded the guy but at least I was fair in giving him an EXCELLENT, all 5's survey.
(All of us in the biz know how much we live and die by these asinine surveys, and how meaningless they are. I just wish someone would take out JD POWER & ASSOCIATES - would'nt that be grand? Yeah, maybe when they start serving ice water in hell!!)
"However, I am puzzled by your comment that "the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves.""
If I put a sticker on something that SAYS $14.99 (even though it should really be $8.99) and then cross it out, and put HUGE SALE: $11.99, what's happening? Are you getting a good deal, or are you still paying too much?
Let's say I waltz on into a Dodge store and get me a good "deal" on a Dakota. I pay invoice, less holdback, less whatever rebate they may be offering at the time. Heck, I may even get special financing.
Did I get a good deal?
Really?
Tell me I did when I go to sell it or trade it in :P
See, us dealers KNOW when a car has wacky incentives and the market is soft on it. It's not like we actually believe it ever sold for MSRP. The market adjusts, and the "deal" becomes an illusion. The "deal" cars start churning through the auction for less and less, and all of a sudden you're stuck with your "deal" until it's paid off. We see it EVERY day.
All cars depreciate, some WAY faster than others (and they are usually the ones with the best "deals" on them).
Keep in mind, even though everyone SAYS they're going to keep it until the wheels fall off, the AVERAGE trade cycle is less than 4 years. That's some ugly negative equity (considering most people still finance).
So that's why I chuckle when someone tells me about a great "deal" on something like a Trailblazer. They are kidding themselves...
"(All of us in the biz know how much we live and die by these asinine surveys, and how meaningless they are. I just wish someone would take out JD POWER & ASSOCIATES - would'nt that be grand? Yeah, maybe when they start serving ice water in hell!!)"
Amen brother.
Amen.
These "surveys" have become the biggest lie in the car business. The "information" they gather is coached, worthless, and better left ignored. The sad part is, it's no longer about who has the better product, it's about who's better at transparently coaching the customer into filling it out properly.
Perhaps the reason of not so great CSIs by people who buy after long negotiations is not only that they are "unhappy with their lives" (don't deny they exist perhaps in large numbers) or similar, but a treatment they get during the purchase. Consider this: 1. I come to your office and announce I buy this new XYMobil for full sticker (or whatever asking price). What happens? You of course run in your head that by one transaction your mortgage, electricity and water bills are paid and you can still take family to steak dinner. Wouldn't you do anything not to lose such customer? And then it of course will reciprocate. CSI will be great. 2. Now lets reverse - a guy comes in your place and it becomes quickly apparent that he will pay low. There are two choices - give him lowest possible price and move on regardless of his acceptance or rejection, or try to bump him up on every single issue, using every single excuse. Perhaps he will tire, and one more steak will fall into your basket. Never hurts to ask, right? WRONG! How do you expect a good CSI afterwards after you subject the guy to all possible "money extraction" tacticts? Moreover (basic psychology), there will be some adversarial relationship developed and the attitudes will follow. A real conflict is happening - you want him to pay more, he wants to pay less, but no one is leaving the room.
My thought is that - the ultimate control over the process is in your hands - if you elect into "grinding" in attempt of extracting additional money (I mean - rather than giving an offer and simply sticking to it), don't expect then CSIs full of greatful remarks.
I fully agree that it's the laws of supply and demand that dictates the price on a car and that some cars below invoice still aren't a very good deal.
However, on the folks that run out and pay a premium over MSRP to be the first, how long will that pricing structure remain in effect? Especially, when we're talking about mass produced domestic cars. If you run out and pay a premium for a GTO or a Magnum, that newness wore out in 3 months and the cars were selling at less than MSRP after 6 months.
As great as it is to be the first, seeing some driving the same exact car as me for $10,000 less, that's not going to feel good. Unless we're talking about something of limited production or high-end never be the first in line to pay a $5,000 mark-up over MSRP.
I'd say the last thing on the minds of an enthusiast willing to pay 5k over is how much they overpaid. They are more concerned about being the first ones to have em, and to them, that's worth a premium.
Some people are like that and if they can afford to blow away money like that more power to them. I would rather be the second or third on my block with one and be able to afford that Hawaii vacation.
In general, I think the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves.
Wait, those who do get a good deal are kidding themselves? How so?
I feel great about paying MSRP. My car is worth every penny! I don't live my life worrying about such trivial things.
I wouldn't call saving hundreds maybe thousands trivial. Its all about maximizing your utility with the limited resources (read money) that you have. Personally I can put off having that hot new Buiyota Benz Sludge Mobile Sports Coupe for a few months if it will save me a few thousand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If I put a sticker on something that SAYS $14.99 (even though it should really be $8.99) and then cross it out, and put HUGE SALE: $11.99, what's happening? Are you getting a good deal, or are you still paying too much?
So are you saying that unless I pay exactly what the dealer paid I have a bad deal? But to answer your question if a majority of people are paying 12.99 for it then yes its a good deal.
Keep in mind, even though everyone SAYS they're going to keep it until the wheels fall off, the AVERAGE trade cycle is less than 4 years. That's some ugly negative equity (considering most people still finance).
Even if they finance the entire purchase (including TT&L) after 4 years you should owe less than 25% of the original purchase price (based on a five year loan) so unless you already rolled negitive equity into the loan or have a 72 month or longer term or drive a lot you should be ok at 5 years. Put some money down on the car and its even less.
I find it funny that someone who proudly states they paid MSRP on a car starts talking on how people who pay under MSRP are "kidding themselves".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
is always spinned around percentage of MSRP, not transaction price. Les see one example: we have low depreciating Supermobil sold for full MSRP of say $25K, it has super residual of 55% of MSRP, thus $13.75. Then we have a Crapmobil sold with 3 grand of cash back at invoice minus half holdback - roughly $20K, but it has terrible residual of 35% - $8.75K. But lets look how much money did we lose: Supermobil: $11,750, Crapmobil: $11,250. If it was a financing transaction, Supermobil owner paid higher finance charges and higher taxes.
I find it funny that someone who proudly states they paid MSRP on a car starts talking on how people who pay under MSRP are "kidding themselves".
I think that what they're getting it is that you get what you pay for. If a car is moving a such discounts, it's because the discounts are needed to sell an inferior product. To a point, there's truth to that. I would feel better paying sticker for a BMW than I would paying 5 grand below sticker for a Malibu.
It's not an absolute truth however. Just because you got a good deal doesn't mean a car is bad and just because you pay sticker doesn't mean a car is good.
The sales people don't give us a hard time when we make an OTD offer. They may ask how we computed our offer, but I decline to answer. They may also make a counteroffer, but we don't accept it. Other than that, we have no problems.
By the way, we got our RSX 3 years ago and I still enjoy it tremendously. I think the leather is much nicer than the cloth interior.
Our car has had no problems other than a couple dash rattles that were easy to fix. From what I understand, many other owners have had problems with the transmission and the suspension, but that is discussed in detail on the Club RSX website.
"These surveys have become the biggest lie in the car business."
I don't think that is true. We fill out our surveys truthfully.
Our last two car purchases (2003 and 2005) were enjoyable and we were treated very well, so we gave them perfect scores. We even sent a $100 gift certificate for Wegmans to the salesman.
When we bought a Honda in 1998 they tried to cheat us out of an option I had requested, so we gave them very low marks on the survey, including a zero for honesty.
What he meant is if you don't give "completely satisfied", you pretty much gave them "unacceptable". Manufacturers use CSIs as a stick to deprive dealers from the bonuses, and managers do the same to their salesforce. Dealers go as far as bribing their customers (free oil change and such) for blank surver or "all tens".
It's called grade inflation. Like in high school today, everybody is "best", "super", "unmatched". In that regard they became a lie, as they are not functioning the way they were originally intended as a true measure of accomplishment.
So that's why I chuckle when someone tells me about a great "deal" on something like a Trailblazer. They are kidding themselves...
That is an interesting way of twisting things, nice “salesmanship”.
So, if I am in a market for a minivan and would like to buy a Sienna; am I better of paying MSRP, or am I “kidding myself” when I get a deal of invoice minus incentives? The depreciation is the same, regardless of how much I pay for it.
Which is why grading on a curve is the only real way to push students to work harder. Turns it into a cutthroat environment, but oh well.
MSRP isn't so bad when you're dealing with a Honda Fit. Even a few hundred premium to skip the 3 month wait (or probably more for MT) doesn't sound so bad.
Grading on curve is probably worst way to grade anything. Anybody who taught anything knows that student achievement very rarely conforms to normal distribution. Moreover, reference points are very flawed there, too, as minimum competence level may be not achieved by big part of a student population.
MSRP isn't so bad when you're dealing with a Honda Fit. Even a few hundred premium to skip the 3 month wait (or probably more for MT) doesn't sound so bad.
It does to me, if I was interested in a Fit I would wait a few months (my car is still running fine) and see what happens 6 to 9 months down the line.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"No its a case of supply and demand make to much of a superior product and you will end up selling it for less than the inferior product."
That's not true. If GM drastically cut production of the Malibu to 1, you still couldn't get 30 grand for that one. It's just not worth it. It's like the guy I saw that was trying to get 5 grand for a Dodge Mirada because "they didn't make too many of them". They didn't make too many of them because they couldn't sell too many of them. They greatest Dodge Mirada on Earth you couldn't get 2 grand for.
With a BMW, it's not just a badge, it's a superior driving experience and superior styling and appointments that you're paying for. GM can't offer that with their mass production cars, so their tact is to discount them until they move.
That's not true. If GM drastically cut production of the Malibu to 1, you still couldn't get 30 grand for that one.
To you it might not be, but if someone really wanted a Malibu they would pay more for it.
With a BMW, it's not just a badge,
Don't kid yourself its the name that sells BMW, if all you changed on a BMW was the name and logos from BMW to Chevy how many will they sell? Answer - not nearly as many.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Again, if we did it "your" way, we wouldn't be doing our job.
OF COURSE the "grinder" buyer just wants us to hang our heads and say "OK, you win, I won't even try, let's do the paperwork and save some time...". Now imagine if you were the OWNER of that store and heard one of your employees say something like that. :mad:
I am going to subject you to every single "money extraction" technique I have, as long as they are reasonablty honest ones. Why? Because IT'S MY JOB. We aren't the Red Cross folks. I often wonder how (in whatever walk of life your job is), YOU would feel if someone walked in and offered close to net cost for what you do/sell? I think most of you would laugh that person out of your office/store.
CAN you get a good deal? Of course. Should it be expected that dealers just speed up the process to appease you, and in doing so never even ASK for profit that you may very well be willing to pay? Nope.
A perfect example is that random "grinder" who decides he sees value in ONE of our many products and (even though he may grind that # too lol), BUYS it...
If we did it "their" way and just rushed through the process so we didn't irrate the irritating, we'd be costing ourselves money. Last I checked, businesses tended to be after that...
I expect perfect CSI because I deal with integrity, am there for my customers, and because the only reason NOT to give me a perfect survey is to spite ME. If they're unhappy about how long the process takes, that's really not my fault. People these days seem to think buying a car should take 15 minutes.
Much as you "grinders" may hate it, I'm the guy that forces you to drive it even if you "just did" (read the story a few pages back for a perfect reason why... no drive, no paper... no, sorry). I'm the guy who asks for every penny, even if Down The Road motors told you they'd do it for less. I'm also the guy that does HIS JOB.
I have the highest C.S.I. in the store, and make more $$$ than people who sell twice as many cars. Go figure...
T
PS: Sometimes people pay MSRP very easily, but it isn't the salvation you seem to think it is. Just FYI, we get 18-30% of the GROSS profit of the vehicle (less our OWN "fees"... they call them "pack"), I'd have to live in Honduras to spend my commission the way you think I could :P
Comments
Is that so? Go check the Mercedes board, or the BMW, or the Lexus... etc.
And if "those are highline" is going to be the explanation, try looking at the FJ Cruiser, or the Prius for that matter.
Plenty of happy customers paying all the cheese (and then some... we are $4995 over on FJ's and sell every one) :shades: . Our survey rating on those vehicles is currently 97%. Supply and demand in action...
Kinda makes you wonder how happy everyone would be if they paid more? :P
I can say from experience it is undoubtedly the customers that pay the most that are the happiest on average. On occasion there will be an exception, but industry-wide, that is the rule of thumb.
T
I can say from experience it is undoubtedly the customers that pay the most that are the happiest on average. On occasion there will be an exception, but industry-wide, that is the rule of thumb.
I was taught when I got into this business that "Gross makes friends". This means that somewhere along the lines you have clicked with the customer and you made price secondary because you have demonstrated exactly why the customer needs this car right now. The customers that you make the most moeny on are the ones that will love you the most and give you great surveys, referrals, etc...
The grinders who spend three weeks driving all over the place pitting dealer against dealer and then spending hours grinding the last dollar, are the unhappiest in the end.
They leave with the feeling that just maybe, someone else paid less than they did. They are the ones who will get in a final dig by giving a hard working salesperson a lousy survey.
We see these people later at the cashier trying to use a long expired service coupon. We see these people pointing out a small scratch in the bumper that "wasn't there before you worked on it"
What a miserable way to go through life, but, hey, we are all different.
1. telling one that extended warranty is required on their deal when it's not,
2. adding fee when it is not allowed (certain supplier programs or other types),
3. selling vehicle as certified preowned when inspection was not up to the standards
4. stating that someone's credit score is 650 when it is 720
5. saying GAP is required by the bank when it's not
Etc.
If you say: "with your 720 score our offer is 10.5%" - no problem. If someone accpets it - tough luck. When you say "You have only 650 score that's why 10.5% APR" - no. That is a straight-up lie, in my book unacceptable conduct that should be prosecuted if possible.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Had a chiseler try this on the dealership once. He was the worst person in the world to deal with, guaranteed lousy survey and just a generally nasty sort of person. He comes in with his sons 1 year old Accord. Has a jagged looking cut in the rear bumper cover. Obvious ( to me anyway) impact mark and abrasions around the cut area. He swore up and down that the car had never backed into anything and that the cut bumper cover was from freezing and thawing. Demanded that the bumper cover be replaced under warranty. Our dealership will sometimes " goodwill" repairs like this for free so as not to lose a customer. I saw the guy come into service and witnessed the whole exchange. I went to the service manager and asked him if I could be the one to ut this car up on the rack and inspect it. ( I'm a salesman not a technician). As soon as the car was in the air it was very apparent from underneath that this car had been in an impact somewhere. There was a strut that holds the bumper out that was obviously bent. I took several pictures with our service depts. digital camera and walked out to tell him that we would not be paying for his repair that day that it was customer caused and not ours or Hondas responsibility to repair. It was one of the most satisfying feelings I have had as a car salesman to personally ask this gentleman not to return.
Does it ever really happen? Yup. And I am against it 110%. In reality though, I truly believe that only in about 1 in 10 times is the complaint legit. Other times, one of their relatives or friends told them "you did WHAT?!?!" after the fact, and in the process of trying to save some face, they accuse us.
We are easy targets, that's for sure.
T
It's certainly very possible. Don't know about percentages, but I may agree that many if not most are the way you describe it.
And of course there are lies and there are lies. When I bought my new car four years ago, I bough extended warranty based on his strong claim it would be more expensive to buy it later. Of course then I learned that the price is the same for as long as the original warranty lasts - it woudl of course increase afterwards. I was almost entirely sure it was not true but he sounded so convincing I succumbed to it. No big harm done, as I realized I wanted that warranty anyway. I wasn't running around and screaming afterwards, but a little bitter taste was left. Especially that the dealership was actually one of the "better ones" with reputation of high professionalism and honesty. Yet, small lies were still used just to make the final push...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Really!
Where are you, California?
One thing to consider though, it's sometimes nice to be able to include the extended warranty in your financing. If you wait until after the loan is processed, the price might not go up, but you won't have the option of only having your payment going up a few bucks to get it.
T
We sit them down, go to the tape, and usually get an apology.
I like em personally.
T
Ya, translation lost there. Just trying to point out how ridiculous the whole situation was. Ahh well. None of what happened was right there, but man some funny things happened. I guess it was one of those situations where you needed to be there.
Exactly what are we accomplishing on this forum?
I just don't like sick humor.
T
J/K
T
I never fell in love with a car so paying close to MSRP and over MSRP is completely foreign to me. However, since this seems to happen more than a few times this why settling for a mini that takes no time to consummate should not be a problem for you. Grab a quick little buck and move on to the killings.
See, you can have it both ways.
Kinda makes you wonder how happy everyone would be if they paid more?
I don’t blame you for trying and I’m sure you do but I know you couldn’t pull that on the posters here or any informed buyer for that matter.
Like I’ve said before, aren’t the MSRP buyers the ones that pay the mortgage?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I post on this board, and I paid MSRP. I don't treat my car like just an appliance though. I love cars, no way around saying it. Could I have waited, or even gone somewhere else to save a few bucks? Probably.
Instead, I pulled the trigger on a car that was what I wanted, when I wanted it, and for a payment I could afford. I also got a hot product before anyone else, and love her very much
See, to many people (myself included), a car IS an emotional item. If I want something bad enough, I will most definitely pay extra for it. I am not alone, and evidently, neither was the guy who just bought our last FJ Cruiser for $4995.00 over MSRP.
Just don't kid yourself into thinking "grinders" are the easiest deals. They aren't. And talk about headaches after the sale... As a salesperson, you'd better HOPE the car is flawless or you'll be sure to never hear the end of it.
I can honestly say that every bad survey I've ever gotten has been on someone I made LESS than $1000 in profit on.
It's never enough for the "grinders"
T
I sold one car and our other two salesman delivered two others. I had two appointments and three walkins plus two phone ups.
Everyone else was basicly in the same boat.
We didn't get out of their till after 8:00 PM and we normaly close at 7:30.
I'll spare the innuendo about how nice her ride is
And as for the GTO analogy, I'd say the last thing on the minds of an enthusiast willing to pay 5k over is how much they overpaid. They are more concerned about being the first ones to have em, and to them, that's worth a premium.
In general, I think the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves.
I feel great about paying MSRP. My car is worth every penny! I don't live my life worrying about such trivial things. Especially when it comes to getting something that makes me happy.
T
Even though it is hard to believe, I can accept that some people "are more concerned about being the first ones to have em, and to them, that's worth a premium."
I guess that makes them happy for a week or so until a lot of other people are driving the same type of car.
However, I am puzzled by your comment that "the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves."
How are they kidding themselves.
Tell the sales guy another dealer offered me an OTD price of 22,000 (actually offered OTD of 22,450) can you come close?
Sales guy says he only has RSX with leather.
I say fine .. match the price and we have a deal.
We sit down and out comes .... drum roll please .... salesguys chime in here now ..
THE 4 SQUARE.
I tell him, you don't need that.
He responds , what payment are you looking for?
Me: NO payment ... CASH deal .. match the price
Him: Let me get some info .. Name, address, phone number
Me: I stop at name. Can you do the deal or not?
Him: I just need this info
Me: No you don't .. all you need is my name and offer
Him: My mangers need this info
Me: No they don't. You are merely collecting data for future solicitations. If you make the deal THEN I will give you my info. Now, would you like me to walk to the tower and give them my offer or will you?
Him: What dealer gave you the offer?
Me: Does it really matter? It was a local one within 15 miles
Him: I'll be right back
5 mins goes by.
Him: The best I can do is 22,950 OTD
Me: 22,500 OTD (as I slide the 4 square back to him)
Him: Since we are $450.00 apart would you split the difference with me?
Me: NO, My FINAL offer 22,500 OTD (I should have said my FINAL offer is 22,250 OTD) but since he had caved in on the info issue AND was willing to work with me, I didn't push the issue)
10-15 mins goes by and he emerges not with some closer or a sales manager but by himself, stating we have a deal.
Now, this whole time he has NO idea I am in the same business and I don't even tell him or allude to it. Sometimes these things are better left unsaid.
He does go on & on about are you 100% satisfied, right. You will get a call about blah blah blah. He was alluding to the survey. He never came right out and said YOU WILL GET A SURVEY, I NEED 100% OR ELSE but he did beat around the bush about it.
Anyway, the final end is that I got the car for $253.00 OVER invoice and I did give the guy 100% on his survey.
But it was a win-win. I got the car at a saisfactory price and the store sold a car. Maybe he made a mini, maybe it made his unit bonus, maybe it was a looser deal, maybe it was a skinny deal and they needed it for midmonth numbers.
The only ones who know are the salesman & the manager.
As for me, I chalked it up as a decent buying experience.
I might have grinded the guy but at least I was fair in giving him an EXCELLENT, all 5's survey.
(All of us in the biz know how much we live and die by these asinine surveys, and how meaningless they are. I just wish someone would take out JD POWER & ASSOCIATES - would'nt that be grand? Yeah, maybe when they start serving ice water in hell!!)
My FINAL offer 22,500 OTD
I must be missing something. Why would you go to the trouble of shopping at a second dealership only to bid more than the first dealer's asking price?
It must have been the leather for $50 that made the deal?
tidester, host
If I put a sticker on something that SAYS $14.99 (even though it should really be $8.99) and then cross it out, and put HUGE SALE: $11.99, what's happening? Are you getting a good deal, or are you still paying too much?
Let's say I waltz on into a Dodge store and get me a good "deal" on a Dakota. I pay invoice, less holdback, less whatever rebate they may be offering at the time. Heck, I may even get special financing.
Did I get a good deal?
Really?
Tell me I did when I go to sell it or trade it in :P
See, us dealers KNOW when a car has wacky incentives and the market is soft on it. It's not like we actually believe it ever sold for MSRP. The market adjusts, and the "deal" becomes an illusion. The "deal" cars start churning through the auction for less and less, and all of a sudden you're stuck with your "deal" until it's paid off. We see it EVERY day.
All cars depreciate, some WAY faster than others (and they are usually the ones with the best "deals" on them).
Keep in mind, even though everyone SAYS they're going to keep it until the wheels fall off, the AVERAGE trade cycle is less than 4 years. That's some ugly negative equity (considering most people still finance).
So that's why I chuckle when someone tells me about a great "deal" on something like a Trailblazer. They are kidding themselves...
T
Amen brother.
Amen.
These "surveys" have become the biggest lie in the car business. The "information" they gather is coached, worthless, and better left ignored. The sad part is, it's no longer about who has the better product, it's about who's better at transparently coaching the customer into filling it out properly.
Oh well...
T
1. I come to your office and announce I buy this new XYMobil for full sticker (or whatever asking price). What happens? You of course run in your head that by one transaction your mortgage, electricity and water bills are paid and you can still take family to steak dinner. Wouldn't you do anything not to lose such customer? And then it of course will reciprocate. CSI will be great.
2. Now lets reverse - a guy comes in your place and it becomes quickly apparent that he will pay low. There are two choices - give him lowest possible price and move on regardless of his acceptance or rejection, or try to bump him up on every single issue, using every single excuse. Perhaps he will tire, and one more steak will fall into your basket. Never hurts to ask, right? WRONG! How do you expect a good CSI afterwards after you subject the guy to all possible "money extraction" tacticts? Moreover (basic psychology), there will be some adversarial relationship developed and the attitudes will follow. A real conflict is happening - you want him to pay more, he wants to pay less, but no one is leaving the room.
My thought is that - the ultimate control over the process is in your hands - if you elect into "grinding" in attempt of extracting additional money (I mean - rather than giving an offer and simply sticking to it), don't expect then CSIs full of greatful remarks.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
However, on the folks that run out and pay a premium over MSRP to be the first, how long will that pricing structure remain in effect? Especially, when we're talking about mass produced domestic cars. If you run out and pay a premium for a GTO or a Magnum, that newness wore out in 3 months and the cars were selling at less than MSRP after 6 months.
As great as it is to be the first, seeing some driving the same exact car as me for $10,000 less, that's not going to feel good. Unless we're talking about something of limited production or high-end never be the first in line to pay a $5,000 mark-up over MSRP.
Some people are like that and if they can afford to blow away money like that more power to them. I would rather be the second or third on my block with one and be able to afford that Hawaii vacation.
In general, I think the people who think they ARE getting the good deals (below invoice plus incentives) are the ones kidding themselves.
Wait, those who do get a good deal are kidding themselves? How so?
I feel great about paying MSRP. My car is worth every penny! I don't live my life worrying about such trivial things.
I wouldn't call saving hundreds maybe thousands trivial. Its all about maximizing your utility with the limited resources (read money) that you have. Personally I can put off having that hot new Buiyota Benz Sludge Mobile Sports Coupe for a few months if it will save me a few thousand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK, I'll bite, what did you pay MSRP for?
So are you saying that unless I pay exactly what the dealer paid I have a bad deal? But to answer your question if a majority of people are paying 12.99 for it then yes its a good deal.
Keep in mind, even though everyone SAYS they're going to keep it until the wheels fall off, the AVERAGE trade cycle is less than 4 years. That's some ugly negative equity (considering most people still finance).
Even if they finance the entire purchase (including TT&L) after 4 years you should owe less than 25% of the original purchase price (based on a five year loan) so unless you already rolled negitive equity into the loan or have a 72 month or longer term or drive a lot you should be ok at 5 years. Put some money down on the car and its even less.
I find it funny that someone who proudly states they paid MSRP on a car starts talking on how people who pay under MSRP are "kidding themselves".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Supermobil: $11,750, Crapmobil: $11,250. If it was a financing transaction, Supermobil owner paid higher finance charges and higher taxes.
So who is kidding themselves?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I think that what they're getting it is that you get what you pay for. If a car is moving a such discounts, it's because the discounts are needed to sell an inferior product. To a point, there's truth to that. I would feel better paying sticker for a BMW than I would paying 5 grand below sticker for a Malibu.
It's not an absolute truth however. Just because you got a good deal doesn't mean a car is bad and just because you pay sticker doesn't mean a car is good.
Heck, if they truly want a Trailblazer and if they get it for a low price like $1000, I think they should feel they got a great deal.
What a contemptible lie. In many cases you are buying image and not the product. Madison avenue is full of places that sell image.
If a car is moving a such discounts, it's because the discounts are needed to sell an inferior product.
No its a case of supply and demand make to much of a superior product and you will end up selling it for less than the inferior product.
I would feel better paying sticker for a BMW than I would paying 5 grand below sticker for a Malibu.
I wouldn't, with the BMW you are paying a lot just to have the BMW badge on your car. In other words you are paying a premium for snob appeal.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The sales people don't give us a hard time when we make an OTD offer. They may ask how we computed our offer, but I decline to answer. They may also make a counteroffer, but we don't accept it. Other than that, we have no problems.
By the way, we got our RSX 3 years ago and I still enjoy it tremendously. I think the leather is much nicer than the cloth interior.
Our car has had no problems other than a couple dash rattles that were easy to fix. From what I understand, many other owners have had problems with the transmission and the suspension, but that is discussed in detail on the Club RSX website.
I don't think that is true. We fill out our surveys truthfully.
Our last two car purchases (2003 and 2005) were enjoyable and we were treated very well, so we gave them perfect scores. We even sent a $100 gift certificate for Wegmans to the salesman.
When we bought a Honda in 1998 they tried to cheat us out of an option I had requested, so we gave them very low marks on the survey, including a zero for honesty.
It's called grade inflation. Like in high school today, everybody is "best", "super", "unmatched". In that regard they became a lie, as they are not functioning the way they were originally intended as a true measure of accomplishment.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That is an interesting way of twisting things, nice “salesmanship”.
So, if I am in a market for a minivan and would like to buy a Sienna; am I better of paying MSRP, or am I “kidding myself” when I get a deal of invoice minus incentives? The depreciation is the same, regardless of how much I pay for it.
BTW, when is 2007 Sienna coming out?
I'd pay sticker for a BMW before I'd pay $5000 for a Malibu.
MSRP isn't so bad when you're dealing with a Honda Fit. Even a few hundred premium to skip the 3 month wait (or probably more for MT) doesn't sound so bad.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It does to me, if I was interested in a Fit I would wait a few months (my car is still running fine) and see what happens 6 to 9 months down the line.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's not true. If GM drastically cut production of the Malibu to 1, you still couldn't get 30 grand for that one. It's just not worth it. It's like the guy I saw that was trying to get 5 grand for a Dodge Mirada because "they didn't make too many of them". They didn't make too many of them because they couldn't sell too many of them. They greatest Dodge Mirada on Earth you couldn't get 2 grand for.
With a BMW, it's not just a badge, it's a superior driving experience and superior styling and appointments that you're paying for. GM can't offer that with their mass production cars, so their tact is to discount them until they move.
To you it might not be, but if someone really wanted a Malibu they would pay more for it.
With a BMW, it's not just a badge,
Don't kid yourself its the name that sells BMW, if all you changed on a BMW was the name and logos from BMW to Chevy how many will they sell? Answer - not nearly as many.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OF COURSE the "grinder" buyer just wants us to hang our heads and say "OK, you win, I won't even try, let's do the paperwork and save some time...". Now imagine if you were the OWNER of that store and heard one of your employees say something like that. :mad:
I am going to subject you to every single "money extraction" technique I have, as long as they are reasonablty honest ones. Why? Because IT'S MY JOB. We aren't the Red Cross folks. I often wonder how (in whatever walk of life your job is), YOU would feel if someone walked in and offered close to net cost for what you do/sell? I think most of you would laugh that person out of your office/store.
CAN you get a good deal? Of course. Should it be expected that dealers just speed up the process to appease you, and in doing so never even ASK for profit that you may very well be willing to pay? Nope.
A perfect example is that random "grinder" who decides he sees value in ONE of our many products and (even though he may grind that # too lol), BUYS it...
If we did it "their" way and just rushed through the process so we didn't irrate the irritating, we'd be costing ourselves money. Last I checked, businesses tended to be after that...
I expect perfect CSI because I deal with integrity, am there for my customers, and because the only reason NOT to give me a perfect survey is to spite ME. If they're unhappy about how long the process takes, that's really not my fault. People these days seem to think buying a car should take 15 minutes.
Much as you "grinders" may hate it, I'm the guy that forces you to drive it even if you "just did" (read the story a few pages back for a perfect reason why... no drive, no paper... no, sorry). I'm the guy who asks for every penny, even if Down The Road motors told you they'd do it for less. I'm also the guy that does HIS JOB.
I have the highest C.S.I. in the store, and make more $$$ than people who sell twice as many cars. Go figure...
T
PS: Sometimes people pay MSRP very easily, but it isn't the salvation you seem to think it is. Just FYI, we get 18-30% of the GROSS profit of the vehicle (less our OWN "fees"... they call them "pack"), I'd have to live in Honduras to spend my commission the way you think I could :P