If I lived in one of the "import-heavy" areas, I'd be sure to buy something like a 1958 Buick Roadmaster as my daily driver to deliberately offend all my yuppie (censored) neighbors!
Naah, you need an '85 Cutlass with a disintegrating vinyl roof, one of the grills busted out, and the plastic bumper inserts cracking and peeling. It also has to wobble at 5 mph, smell like burnt fish oil, and have one of the windows broken out and taped over.
The flashing light just meant the ABS wouldn't work.
That, and the stability and traction control are also dead. As long as you only have to make smooth stops on dry pavement, you would be okay. You don't really need power boosters or turn signals either, but it would be nice if the things you paid for worked regularly.
I've never had a car with ABS, traction control, or stability control, so I wouldn't know what I'm missing!
However, I have driven (well, coasted in) vehicles with stalled engines. Disc brakes pretty much demand a power assist. Once that reserve gets used up, you'd better have some strong leg muscles! Also seems like modern cars are more difficult to aim once the power steering cuts out. I'd imagine that part of the problem is the wider tires provide more resistance, but I wonder if the modern rack-and-pinion steering systems also might give more resistance than the old recirculating ball?
I think nowadays, steering components may also be more fragile, because they're designed with a power assist in mind. Back in the day, they pretty much just slapped a hydraulic pump on the existing system to do all the work, and changed the steering ratio so that instead of something like 5-6 turns lock-to-lock, you were down to 3.3 or whatever.
I drove my '68 V-8 Dart for about 40,000 miles with a broken power steering pump, and when I finally got it fixed, it cost about $300 total, to replace the pump and the steering box with used parts. But I remember a co-worker here years ago that had an '83 Cadillac Fleetwood. He gave it to his son. Power steering pump went out on it, and the kid thought it would be cool to just drive it that way, like it was some kind of badge of honor or something. Within the course of a few months, the whole steering system was shot, and they junked the car. That was still a recirculating ball system, but I'm sure it was still lightened up compared to the types of systems they used back in the day.
Naah, you need an '85 Cutlass with a disintegrating vinyl roof, one of the grills busted out, and the plastic bumper inserts cracking and peeling. It also has to wobble at 5 mph, smell like burnt fish oil, and have one of the windows broken out and taped over.
And if you really want to complete the effect, make sure you add some variety to the wheel choices, such as having three wire hubcaps and one Chevy rally wheel thrown in for a nice contrast. Also helps if it's a color-keyed Rally wheel, that was color keyed to a color other than said Cutlass. :P
Wow, I did not realize so many people "hate" GM. Hate is a strong word. If this is true, one has to ask how did that ever come about. Perhaps there are people at GM over the years which were of the opinion that Americans are all irrational people, incapable of using sound logic, as you have stated. This is comparable to a kid losing in his effort to build the better science project, then blaming the teacher and students for simply being illogical.
You speak of a religion, a sort of cult, no doubt, which I find interesting. Always considered now for years, make that decades, people were at times irrational, or is that passionate about Chevy, GM,Ford or Chrysler, more so than Japan or even the German makes. NASCAR has a lot of stock cars, all being domestic. It was time to fight for bragging rights over cars and trucks, be on the street or on the drag strips, and those were, you guessed it domestic. This isn't one of those my religion is better than your's thing now is it? I can see it now, and knock on the door, and " we are from the church of GM, are here to spread the word of Wagoner."
Final note, are you sure people, as in all people hate domestic cars? I see quite are few on the road these days, and they are not all rental cars.... remember the Alamo! Loren
Import car sticker prices are but suggested prices. You DO get discounts off the sticker. Only car which is suppose to be a one price for all which comes to mind is the Saturn's. They seem to have discounts which are Internet related and by individual states (available if asked about). And they have add-ons, which can be erased from the sales price. And well, Saturn is suppose to be a one price. Then you have the trade-in value. They would not give me what I wanted at Saturn for the trade-in. They offered about the same about as Honda for the discount, with a few dollars less. The trade-in difference was off enough to hurt though. So in the end the Accord was less expensive up front. Loren
Enough inexpensive electrical power available, and longer lasting batteries, and the Volt may indeed be charged up and ready for prime time. Toyota has indicated they also want to go with all electric. There are plans to build more nuclear power plants in USA. Question of timing, no doubt.
The name is short and sweet. Gotta love the VOLT ! :shades: Loren
"I dont call a flashing ABS light a reliability problem. reliability means failed trannies, engines that wont start, failed electronics, failed power accessories, etc. You think a Century is a piece of crap because the ABS light flashed at 15K miles?"
The General appreciates you setting the bar so low but that is ridiculous. Your opinion of the matter that cost my Father $400 to fix isn't super important at all.
I listed real issues that I've observed first hand on products produced in the last 10 year. Don't get hysterical and tell me that the problems don't matter or that I'm part of some conspiracy to buy lower quality imports becasue I 'hate' a company.
When I buy a new car, I expect no unscheduled repairs for a number of years. That's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan. Not one of the GM buyers in my family have gotten the same thing from their GMs.
I've had the PS go on the '66 SS, the 81 and the 89 Olds, and none of them were just fine, as others stated. Of the three, the '66 was the easiest to drive the short distance, but parallel parking it was a chore. Hence I fixed the hose right away. The 89 the worse do to the rack-pinion, really needs the power assist from the pump - that pump was replaced right away. A non-power rack-pinion system is not as heavy.
I also had the ABS light go on in one of my vehicles and you could tell a difference in braking performance. This also had the ESP tied to it so that goes too. In most cases the ABS light just doesn't mean the ABS portion is out; it can also mean trouble with the braking system itself. Anyone that doesn't think warning lights going on/off aren't a reliability issue... I guess they just ignore it or do the electrical tape trick.
the brakes are mechanical, not electric- they will work as long as you have fluid in the lines. The bottom line is that one ABS problem over a lifetime of ownership doesnt qualify a car as junk- oh wait I forgot that imports have ZERO problems over their lifespan and anything more than that is unacceptable.
"Final note, are you sure people, as in all people hate domestic cars? I see quite are few on the road these days, and they are not all rental cars.... remember the Alamo! "
please reread what I said, not everyone hates domestic cars, but many do. Sure they have made many mistakes but their products are better than ever, especially GM's. Ford and Chrysler have a few nice vehicles but their lineups need far more work than GM's. Personally I dont buy cars based on my love for the corporate structure of each company or my disdain for former CEOs of these companies. I do get tired of import lovers constantly droning on and on about repaying the Big 3 for their arrogance and whatnot. I'm pretty sure they have been repaid in full with huge marketshare losses and millions of layoffs. I dont see anyone worrying about Toyota's arrogance for some reason. People worship Toyota to a large degree and seem to forget they are a money making company just like any other. No different from Microsoft, Walmart of McDonalds. I dont see the kind of love shown for Toyota shown to corporations in other fields. I guess its the mystique of the Japansese quality control and Kaizen and all that.
The General appreciates you setting the bar so low but that is ridiculous. Your opinion of the matter that cost my Father $400 to fix isn't super important at all.
If the ABS light came on that early, at 15,000 miles, shouldn't it still be under warranty? Or was the time limit up on it?
Oh, on the subject of Nissans, my buddy's Xterra recently passed its 1 year anniversary. No problems yet, although the dealer gave us a scare. I had been noticing these oil drips in my driveway, but didn't think anything of it at first. My truck had been leaking oil, and I thought they were just from that. But then I started thinking that those spots looked awfully fresh, and the truck had been fixed back in April.
Sure enough, I looked up under, and saw oil dripping from the drain plug. He's had all of the oil changes done at the dealer. At first I wasn't going to touch it, in case they had stripped the plug or the pan by over-tightening, but then figured I'd take a chance and feel it. It was on so loose I could take it off with my bare hand! :surprise:
I shudder to think what the cost would be for a new Xterra motor, if that plug had fallen out and my buddy was too dense to shut it off immediately!
how could a problem at 15K cost your father a dime? The car is under warranty until 36k miles. PLease explain.
"When I buy a new car, I expect no unscheduled repairs for a number of years. That's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan. Not one of the GM buyers in my family have gotten the same thing from their GMs. "
dont buy a Toyota or Nissan then. Hondas may be OK. It quite apparent that you have been paying little attention to the Toyota quality problems of the last few years. Tranny problems, sludge problems. TUndra camshaft problems, tons of recalls etc. Not to mention all the problems Nissan had with the trucks they launched from their new plant a few years back. If you honestly think that import cars have no problems you are out of touch with reality. I dont doubt that YOU had good cars, but that isnt the case for everyone including my Toyota driving sister in law who just had to pay $1200 to get her AC fixed on a 5 year old camry.
BTW, the issues you mentioned were largely annoying and not serious failures that would leave one stranded. Not saying they are OK, but if that is the best you can do I am not impressed. You want a list of import problems I am aware of from friends and family? We had neighbors that got an Avalon in 1998 and the car was in the shop overnight several times and they were given a loaner vehicle. We moved 3 years later so I dont know how the car fared after that, but I do not it didnt start out well. My current neighbor bought a used I35 and it was in the shop all the time, he had a loaner car once a month it seemed.
If today's Toyota slowly becomes the GM in the late 70s and 80s, they'll also get the treatment that GM has been getting in the last decade or so.
I personally don't think Toyota will make the same mistake that GM and Ford made but as we all know... anything can happen. Since I have good experience with the Honda/Toyota products I am not planning on changing my purchasing decision anytime soon. However, if they become as arrogant as the domestics in the earlier years then I would have no problem ditching them and explore other options.
There are hardcore domestic lovers as well as import lovers. But most buyers are reasonable and basing their purchasing decision on past personal experience. Can't really fault someone keep going back to the same manufacture because they are happy with it, right?
the century didnt have stability control and the problem should've been fixable under warranty. Sorry but that ONE problem in the course of 4-5 years does not make a car unrelaible. If you are saying any vehicle that has any work done under warranty during the time you are paying for a car is unreliable that means there arent too many reliable vehicles on the road. Check out long term road tests in magazines and on Edmunds to see the problems (mostly minor) are present in all brands.
I recent read a long term wrap up for the 300C SRT8 in R&T and they had maybe two minor issues during the car's stay in which they racked up 40k miles or so.
"You don't really need power boosters or turn signals either, but it would be nice if the things you paid for worked regularly. "
I'm sure people with camry tranny problems agree with you 100%. I find it so interesting that the camry got top reliabiity scores for CR in spite of the issues people are complaining about here on carspace. either none of the owners of bad camrys subscribe to CR or Toyota fans are too proud to acknowledge any issues.
I've had the PS go on the '66 SS, the 81 and the 89 Olds, and none of them were just fine, as others stated. Of the three, the '66 was the easiest to drive the short distance, but parallel parking it was a chore.
One of my friends took his driving test in my '68 Dart when the pump was broken, years ago. He went out on the closed course with the cop that rides along with you to test you, and failed immediately for doing something stupid, like taking a turn too wide and going onto the wrong side of the test course road. The cop then made him switch seats, and the cop had to drive my car the rest of the way through the course. My buddy said the cop was cursing my car the whole way back!
We tried to find another car for my friend to take his test, but the only one we could come up with was his cousin's Mercury Lynx, which had a big crack in the windshield. That was a safety violation, and they refused to let him drive it on the course. So, back to the Dart. I taught him how to parallel park that thing, which was a chore, but doable, and he did pass the test the second time through it.
The only other car I had power steering problems with was a 1979 Chrysler Newport. It developed a slow leak, so I just kept a bottle of fluid under the hood in case the pump reservoir got too low. It was still managable when the fluid all drained out, but I still wanted to get it fixed as soon as possible, before it caused any other damage. I think it ended up costing about $200 to fix.
"Since I have good experience with the Honda/Toyota products I am not planning on changing my purchasing decision anytime soon. However, if they become as arrogant as the domestics in the earlier years then I would have no problem ditching them and explore other options. "
This is my point: there is no use in discussing GM products here or anywhere else with people who have your viewpoint. Import lovers will sit here and come up with 2 dozen things GM needs to do before they consider a GM product (i.e. make a family sedan that seats 5 in comfort with a 6 year warranty and 40mpg, etc.) and the bottom line is most import owners will NEVER buy anything that isnt from an Asian manufacturer. I doubt Toyota will ever let its quality become crappy, in fact I dont see any manufacturers ever getting back to the point where many brands were 10 years ago. its not just GM BTW, its the Euro brands, Mitsu, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, etc. If you are of the impression that the only reason to not buy Toyota is because your current Toyota was in the shop 5 times a year than you will never own anything other than Toyota. I'm not buying a car I'm not crazy about just because "the old one didnt give me problems" when there are so many choices on the market. Take the camry for example, its the de facto choice for so many people because it's "safe" to chose. With the Accord, Malibu and 6 coming out this fall I can bet that one or all three of them will be better dynamically, better looking and cheaper than the camry. Why would I give my money to Toyota unless i can be GUARANTEED the Camry would be more reliable than those three. Actually, I dont even care about having a few things repaired under warranty as long as the car is running and all major systems are fine- the real issues is post warranty when repairs come out of my pocket.
The companies trying to gain traction today are desperate for your business and it shows. The companies with the best reps are giving us conservative designs, high prices and are losing whatever engineering edge they had years ago.
If you are saying any vehicle that has any work done under warranty during the time you are paying for a car is unreliable that means there arent too many reliable vehicles on the road.
For the first time ever, I agree with you. (It was bound to happen sometime.)
Brakes are hydraulic, or hydra-mechcanical (or hydro- if you prefer), not counting the cable-operated parking brake. But they also have electrical assist, such as:
"Electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) is an automobile brake technology that automatically varies the amount of force applied to each of a vehicle's brakes, based on road conditions, speed, loading, etc. Often coupled with anti-lock braking systems, EBD can apply more or less braking pressure to each wheel in order to maximize stopping power.
In a hydraulic brake system not equipped with EBD, there is a fixed front-to-rear brake force bias which is determined by the hydraulic components (for example, caliper piston diameter). This bias may be shifted under heavy braking, by means of a mechanical proportioning valve, to prevent rear-wheel lockup. EBD instead applies brake force precisely through electronic control. It recognizes that driving conditions, braking situations and vehicle weight distributions are unique and constantly changing. Working together with Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), EBD uses sensors to determine which wheels would provide maximum braking for the conditions – whether that's the front or rear wheels, the left or right. The final result is more precise and effective braking under all conditions, and also makes the car much more stable under heavy braking, reducing front end dive."
And vehicles can have full-electric brakes as well...
"For the first time ever, I agree with you. (It was bound to happen sometime.) "
How can we be in agreement when you just suggested that ANY problems within 15k miles are unacceptable and would be unheard of on an import?
Of course we dont agree much because I dont suscribe to the "imports dont have problems and all domestics are junk and thats why I would never waste my money on one of them" theory that you seem to believe. That definitely makes it hard for us to see eye to eye.
I must learn to use quotes with your statements. Well, I am looking right at your post, and it doesn't mention some people at all. It did not say many do. It said: "Toyota's arent fun to drive and yet people will forgive any amount of problems and still swear off domestics for life. Your theory doesnt line up with reality. People in America HATE domestic cars with a passion and it has little to do with reason and logic. There are tens of millions of people who think they are too smart to be seen driving a domestic and will not consider one."
There will be people which will turn on Toyota, just because they are the top dog. Happens all the time - human nature, for some. As a whole, the reason it is not wide spread is that most customers are still satisfied with product and service.
As for handling, remember the Toyota Camry is not bad at handling, and is a good safe performing car which is in some ways taking the place of the Delta88 and the Cutlass. Think of the Toyotas today as filling the void for those in the middle class wanting a Cutlass like car, or even the Olds98 Regency, which today is the Avalon. Sure, there is Buick, but for too long it was like an almost forgotten arm of GM, and was sold mostly to the loyal fans of days-gone-bye Buick is Class, buyers. Now it is GM's game to win back. I would do it, as a first effort, with the New Malibu offered with a 6 sp and the i4 engine for $19,000 nicely equipped, with stability control, and a 3.6V6 version for say $22,000 or even $23K nicely equipped. Loren
"how could a problem at 15K cost your father a dime? The car is under warranty until 36k miles. PLease explain."
Explanation - it was 39 months old and the dealer was happy to ream him "dont buy a Toyota or Nissan then... It quite apparent that you have been paying little attention to the Toyota quality problems of the last few years. Tranny problems, sludge problems.... Not to mention all the problems Nissan had with the trucks"
I've never owned a Toyota in my life and never said anything about Toyotas. I know that the trucks were problematic. I wouldn't buy a first year anything from a company that never made them before. Based on their decades of car building, I've never had an unscheduled repair, large or small, from my Nissan in 4 years.
"BTW, the issues you mentioned were largely annoying and not serious failures that would leave one stranded."
Since you don't think that they're a big deal, are you going to pay to fix them? Isn't it a little unreasonable to dismiss other people's problems as no big deal?
GM claims the decline was mostly due to pulling back on fleet sales. But still...
"At GM, the nation's No. 1 vehicle seller, June U.S. sales tumbled to 326,300 units from 413,473 a year earlier. On an adjusted basis, reflecting an extra selling day in June 2007, sales fell 24%. Wall Street expected an 8.7% drop."
The Saturn Outlook looks really nice. Saw one the other day and it looks light years better than the VUE. I think it will do well.
sorry I didnt clarify that I didnt mean EVERY American hates domestics. My point was a lot of people enjoy seeing the Big 3 down and hate them as if they were people and not merely corporations.
"There will be people which will turn on Toyota, just because they are the top dog. Happens all the time - human nature, for some. As a whole, the reason it is not wide spread is that most customers are still satisfied with product and service. "
Wrong. People will not hate Toyota because Americans have such lofty visions of the Japanese commitment to quality and efficiency. Japanese engineering, design and business methodology is put on a pedastal here and thus I dont EVER see people turning against Toyota. When you break everything down a lot of people simply believe that any car engineered in Japan or under the leadership of the Japanese is going to be superior because they are just better and smarter than their US counterparts. Nevermind the fact that they got the quality control methods from the US, nevermind the fact the many Asian branded cars are built by highly paid Americans just like Big 3 vehicles. Everything is "different" when its done by an Asian company. I really love it when import people vent about how highly paid "lazy" UAW workers are and how they dont want to support them because people with HS educations shouldnt be making that much- but then they fail to mention Toyota/Honda/Nissan pay their workers nearly as much, if not more.
"I would do it, as a first effort, with the New Malibu offered with a 6 sp and the i4 engine for $19,000 nicely equipped, with stability control, and a 3.6V6 version for say $22,000 or even $23K nicely equipped. "
not happening- you cant expect GM to make higher quality cars with modern powertrains and then charge Kia like prices. remember, Korean cars are cheap to build if they come from Korea and thus they cant give you tons of equipment for less. I bet Hyundai barely makes money on its US built Sonatas but they probably make so much profit on the cars they import that its acceptable. Chevy cant sell a fully loaded Malibu V6 for $23k and make money.
GM's sales were terrible in JUne. Low incentives plus reduction in fleet sales equalled a disastrous sales month. Even their highly regarded products arent doing well. It shows that GM ads and good magazine reviews really dont do much to influence most buyers. The Aura's continued lack of sales is really shocking.
"Since you don't think that they're a big deal, are you going to pay to fix them? Isn't it a little unreasonable to dismiss other people's problems as no big deal? "
first of all if they are under warranty NO ONE is paying for them except GM. That is common sense. Secondly, if you dont think problems can be separated into annoyances and serious inconveniences then you arent being realistic. Not EVERY problem is a serious problem. Engine and tranny problems are serious- some problems are merely annoyances that you get fixed when you get an oil change. edmunds had a long term Pilot that wouldnt start while on a road trip through the desert. THAT is a serious problem to me.
"Based on their decades of car building, I've never had an unscheduled repair, large or small, from my Nissan in 4 years. "
dont know how many Nissans you've owned but if you have owned 3 or 4 and never had a warranty repair for ANYTHING I would say that is close to a miracle. I dont know how your experience would help anyone who bought a first or 2nd year Armada or Titan though. What good is quality if its not uniform across the board? first you say in your experience Nissans never need repairs but then you say you would never buy a 1st year vehicle- not even from Nissan. If Nissan has quality on lock as you say I dont see why one should have to be wary of their first year vehicles.
BTW, according to CR GM's new SUVs were quite reliable in their first year. Same applies to Fusion.
I bought a '70 Delta 88 in '78 as my first car with any life left in it. The Olds was built in '69 and I drove it for 6 years after buying a new Camaro in '83. So I completely missed out on 14 years of GM, maybe some of their worst years in the '73-'83 time. Unknown to CR, my V6 5 speed Camaro went 65k on factory tires and then threw a v belt in the 75k range and the original battery died at 83k in '88 or '89. 100k mi came before I spent $100 on repairs for it. Maybe GM still built bad cars then but my '84 Camaro was comparable any of the Accord stories I read on here all the time. It also got 30 mpg on trips. It did leak a tiny bit from the rear main seal from 50k on, but the rest of owning it was nothing but pleasure. An '88 Firebird Formula 350 and a '98 Astro were my next two new GM's and the Formula had a perfect record for 4 years till sold and the Astro had a few issues after the warranty expired but I negotiated 7.5% off sticker, then used $3500 in rebates, then got $1600 from my GM card earnings for a total discount of $6900 off MSRP, so I really can't complain about a couple of $300 repairs in 8 years. My '01 truck was a big improvement from the '98 and I see the newer stuff is much improved from '01.
If Saturn had the XR as the only Aura, sold it for say $21,900, actually stocking the base model, which is well equipped on the lots, as in available on the spot, had ads which spelled out clearly that this was a performance car and a lot of bang for the buck, it would help. As is, the XE brings the image down, while dealerships sell loaded XE models costing as much as the XR. Not good. Make an XR base, as they do, then two other models for those needing other goodies, each sold as higher levels.
My prediction is that the New Malibu will take out the low end sales of the XE, with its i4 engine and even lower price and the V6 model New Malibu will be the death of Aura. Currently, the Astra offers some hope in that youthful buyers may step foot in the doors of Saturn, and perhaps be persuaded into getting the XR. That is all the rich kids. We gotta lotta them driving around here. Maybe the new college car for girls could be the Astra instead of the Beetles and Jettas. Side note the Jetta fell once the look changed. College gals must have said, " euwww, that's so not VW, maybe it's a Corolla." Daddy then had to come up with some other alternative, say a Bimmer they had for the family as a couple years old or for the poorer rich, a new Camry, or Civic Si coupe. Loren
Well that would be unfortunate if GM can not make a Malibu for that price range. I paid around $22,500 for the Accord SE V6, which is nicely equipped. If Honda can go that low, and I hear of people buying for less than I paid, then a Chevy Malibu would certainly be expected to be at or below that price. The XR Aura sells for $24K, just like the Accord SE and they had it as total discounts down to $22,500. I thought the Aura is suppose to be one notch over the Malibu or G6? Not sure on how this is suppose to play out. Easy to find Accords with i4 under $19K to $20K for nice equipped i4 engined and the value package can be had for $17,400. GM has to beat them on price to make any sort of splash in the pool !
Other alternative is to dump the lesser lines and go specialty cars, like the RWD ones and SUVs which have some pricing power. The mid-size field is pretty crowded in the lower priced range. Style wise the New Malibu will be good, with a nice looking interior. This is OK, as in comparable to others. In order to command a premium, one looks to what is special, as in looks and type = say the Chrysler 300 selling for $28K or more with it's unique look, RWD and 3.5V6 engine. It raised the pricing power. Loren
...Easy to find Accords with i4 under $19K to $20K for nice equipped i4 engined and the value package can be had for $17,400. GM has to beat them on price to make any sort of splash in the pool !...
Loren,
How much of a price difference do you think it will take to make a splash? $500 less, $1K less, more?
-OR-
If it can't beat it on price, what special item(s) do you feel it "needs" to help it with sales? What item or items would pull you out of your Accord into one, if you were looking for a replacement?
"easier said than done, I find that most import owners have no intentions of every buying anything domestic regardless of quality or performance. While they will always act like the decision is based on fact, image is a huge part of the equation. Most import heavy parts of the country see domestics as lower class and unhip EVEN though domestic brands typically design more stylish cars than their import counterparts. I mean who would ever argue that Toyota or HOnda can style a car better than GM or even Chrysler. Even recent Ford designs blow those two out of the water and that is sad. "
Styling is subjective. You threw Chrysler in there well they dropped the ball big time with the new Sebring and the Caliber is not a viable enough for the Neon in my opinion since the Calber is a hatchback and the Neon was a sedan. Shouldn;t Chrysler have put a Sedan version out of the Caliber like Mazda does with the 3 in that they(Mazda) sell the 3 in both sedan and hatchback form. The interior in the Caliber is terrible and I have sat in it.
What Ford designs blow Honda out of the water? Maybe the Fusion looks better than the Accord since I could see somebody saying that. Well the Explorer looks better than the Pilot I'll give you that.
I am a import fan and I did happen to grow up in a buy american family.
"Import owners can continue to buy cars based on CR recommendations and the opinions of their friends but I will consider anything in my price range that looks good to me. Quality is close amongst brands today and resale value is not critical to me since I will be paying less for the car up front. When people get on their soapbox about resale value they dont mention that resale values are based on MSRPs and you arent paying MSRP for a domestic. They also dont mention that you will be paying more for an import and spending money on financing for that extra borrowing. In the end the gap isnt all that big. This is why people dont really talk actual dollar figures when bragging about resale value, they just focus on residual values."
I do look at CR yes for reliability ratings on cars and trucks but I mostly with the rest of your above paragraph though.
"I'm sure people with camry tranny problems agree with you 100%. I find it so interesting that the camry got top reliabiity scores for CR in spite of the issues people are complaining about here on carspace. either none of the owners of bad camrys subscribe to CR or Toyota fans are too proud to acknowledge any issues."
The 07 Camry V6 did get good reliabiliy scores but the 4cyl version only got a white circle which means average reliability.
No no no.... I didn't say that I wouldn't buy a first year model. What I said was that I wouldn't buy a first year model when the manufacturer was entering a new market segment. Nissan never made full size trucks before, so I'd stay away.
It's just completely arrogant to tell others what problems are big on their cars and what aren't worth complaining about it. I don't care if it's a tail light bulb. If it goes prematurely it's not acceptable. It's not acceptable for any car at 15k and barely 3 years old to have an unscheduled $400 repair.
If they went $500 under on the base model, with features like a VP Accord has, with an i4 engine and 6sp. tranny, I would say it would be a bargain. The New Malibu will have a nice, if not more interesting interior than the Aura has. Advertise that the BASE model New Malibu not only includes features found on the VP or Honda, it does it all for $500 less. On the 3.6 V6 model, it appears, at least compared to the present engine of Honda to be more than worthy of competing, and may not need to be sold for much of a price difference than say the SE model of the Honda, which is $24K, perhaps say $1K under to kick things off? Somewhere around $21k to $23k it should sell. Heck, advertise the $1K off, and let the dealers add the rest as needed to push the sales. If the Malibu is a lost leader for a year, it would be better than the G6 and Aura lack of momentum. It appears to be a good car. It doesn't look like anything which has the price power of those special looking cars however. I bet ya Camaro price gets jacked up instead of discounted.
What I did not like about the Aura XR was not so much pricing of the base model and features, but lack of stock, as in zero on the lot. And I may add the center console - dash area could be a bit more narrow as the knee hits it somewhat - nothing too major a gripe. Also on wish list is lower door window sills and the return of the emergency brake on the center console. Basically, the car seems like a darn good effort. Right now, I would say better pick than the Camry or Altima. Not to hip on Altima CVT transmission and the car seemed a bit like it transfered more road noise or something. The emergency brake is in a really strange location. I do like my Accord SE and it fits me right and handles well. The Aura XR power and paddle shift was pretty cool. Price wise, they almost got there, then could just not do the trade-in anywhere near enough for me. I am thinking Honda, in THIS case had more wiggle room on price, and used some up in the trade-in value. The car discount was an equal. I forget the exact difference on the trade-in, but it was something like a grand or so difference. So maybe Honda dealers used that, I think it was $750 cash to dealer, plus another $1,565, I think it was for discount which was the normal room for discounting, and just ate the other $250 or so discount out of the normal profits. It is a new ownership and they were a dealing, I guess. We went back and forth on price for some time on that day. And I did go to Saturn and Honda on the same day -- Saturn first. Loren
This is deja vue all over again! Recall the big gas crunch of the 70's and they did not have the small cars with highest gas mileage. And if you make fuel efficient cars for years and years, when the gas crunch returns, the people return to what they know as the companies providing those cars. If you push big trucks and SUVs for years, it is hard to convince Joe public you are now a car manufacture with the right cars for the time. In other words, GM could now have a whole fleet of gas sippin' cars, but no one will relate to the company or race to the lots to look over the cars if the perception differs. In the 70's it was too many V8 gas suckers. Today it is, well deja vue all over again.
This could kill off the current and future muscle cars. I personally would prefer say a V6 Camaro, since it has power and gas mileage, but I can feel for those waiting and waiting for that 6.0 V8 version. If I had loads of money to spend, I guess the 6.0 would be cool -- nothing sounds better than a V8. I just hope that all the cars, even the V6 don't have to tune down, like in the past. And the thought of 55 MPH on freeways and Corvettes with 80 MPH speedometers -- oh the horrors, I am having a flashback. Jimmy Carter, sweaters, the...... Loren
Those with a transmission problem will complain. Those without a problem and not likely to be posting that they did not have a problem with the transmission. I have a new car and have not posted that the transmission works.
Since people seem so interested in this transmission issue, does anyone know the total count of cars involved?
I have not personally driven the Camry with the new automatic. Has anyone taken the car on a test run to see if it acts strange in any way? Loren
I'm surprised more people on this forum (and GM too, for that matter) aren't talking about the Vibe. Given that small car sales have been part of the recent success stories of Toyota, Nissan and Honda lately, why hasn't GM marketed the Vibe better? In our area they are very popular, and used Vibes especially don't stay on car lots very long. Vibes also appeal to people like me who wouldn't look at a GM car ordinarily but see the Vibe as a Toyota in disguise.
As long as GM is mostly associated with freeway cruisers and trucks, they are missing out. The new small cars are unproven, but the Vibe has a good record and is in an unusual niche -- gets great mileage but has more cargo capacity and is larger than comparable small cars.
Not for nothing, but this "offensive" we've been talking about has only at the begining. A couple of models (Lambda cuv's Aura, GMT 900's) aren't going to shake things up overnight. Lets see what happens a year from now when the new Malibu and CTS and G-8 are out, and we may even have a look at the new Impala.
I like what GM is doing, and I think they are much further along the righteous path than Dumb and Dumber.
From the Transformers movie, to putting Camrys in their showrooms, to the new Acadia platform, to hybrids in Cadillacs, GM has almost got their thing together.
What is important is that they keep growing with the Silverado, which is their heart.
GM wasn't too eager to report line sales yesterday.
Now that I've taken another look, I can see why. Same old, same old!
Tuning out again for a while.
Somehow, though, I've got to figure out a way to post my Camry repair spreadsheets, to show how very little I've had to spend on them -- both maintenance and repair. For that matter, my '98 Nissan Frontier keeps chugging along with nary a problem.
"I've got to figure out a way to post my Camry repair spreadsheets, to show how very little I've had to spend on them -- both maintenance and repair."
But what about all the posters that know a guy who heard of a guy that had to fix a Camry? Comparing that to your first hand experience, what will you do for them?
Somehow, though, I've got to figure out a way to post my Camry repair spreadsheets, to show how very little I've had to spend on them -- both maintenance and repair.
I keep a running total of all my car repairs, too, in an Excel spreadsheet. There have been a few times where I've listed some of the highlights of what my Intrepid has gone through in its roughly 133,000 miles, but it involved simply re-typing it into a message format.
I wonder if there's a way to post an Excel file on our Carspace pages?
The only other thing I can think of is to turn the file into a graphic file like a jpeg or something, and then post it somewhere as a picture.
I keep binders of maintenance records for all my cars as well. I have everything on my Seville, Brougham, and my girlfriend's LaCrosse going all the way back to when they were new.
"My prediction is that the New Malibu will take out the low end sales of the XE, with its i4 engine and even lower price and the V6 model New Malibu will be the death of Aura. "
Aura isnt selling so the Malibu isnt likely to make much of an impact on Aura sales. You keep harping on the Malibu "stealing" AUra sales but there arent many to steal in the first place. GM is going to sell way more Malibus than Aura and I'm sure they know this.
Comments
Naah, you need an '85 Cutlass with a disintegrating vinyl roof, one of the grills busted out, and the plastic bumper inserts cracking and peeling. It also has to wobble at 5 mph, smell like burnt fish oil, and have one of the windows broken out and taped over.
That, and the stability and traction control are also dead.
Next question, please!
Loren
However, I have driven (well, coasted in) vehicles with stalled engines. Disc brakes pretty much demand a power assist. Once that reserve gets used up, you'd better have some strong leg muscles! Also seems like modern cars are more difficult to aim once the power steering cuts out. I'd imagine that part of the problem is the wider tires provide more resistance, but I wonder if the modern rack-and-pinion steering systems also might give more resistance than the old recirculating ball?
I think nowadays, steering components may also be more fragile, because they're designed with a power assist in mind. Back in the day, they pretty much just slapped a hydraulic pump on the existing system to do all the work, and changed the steering ratio so that instead of something like 5-6 turns lock-to-lock, you were down to 3.3 or whatever.
I drove my '68 V-8 Dart for about 40,000 miles with a broken power steering pump, and when I finally got it fixed, it cost about $300 total, to replace the pump and the steering box with used parts. But I remember a co-worker here years ago that had an '83 Cadillac Fleetwood. He gave it to his son. Power steering pump went out on it, and the kid thought it would be cool to just drive it that way, like it was some kind of badge of honor or something. Within the course of a few months, the whole steering system was shot, and they junked the car. That was still a recirculating ball system, but I'm sure it was still lightened up compared to the types of systems they used back in the day.
And if you really want to complete the effect, make sure you add some variety to the wheel choices, such as having three wire hubcaps and one Chevy rally wheel thrown in for a nice contrast. Also helps if it's a color-keyed Rally wheel, that was color keyed to a color other than said Cutlass. :P
You speak of a religion, a sort of cult, no doubt, which I find interesting. Always considered now for years, make that decades, people were at times irrational, or is that passionate about Chevy, GM,Ford or Chrysler, more so than Japan or even the German makes. NASCAR has a lot of stock cars, all being domestic. It was time to fight for bragging rights over cars and trucks, be on the street or on the drag strips, and those were, you guessed it domestic. This isn't one of those my religion is better than your's thing now is it? I can see it now, and knock on the door, and " we are from the church of GM, are here to spread the word of Wagoner."
Final note, are you sure people, as in all people hate domestic cars? I see quite are few on the road these days, and they are not all rental cars.... remember the Alamo!
Loren
Loren
Enough inexpensive electrical power available, and longer lasting batteries, and the Volt may indeed be charged up and ready for prime time. Toyota has indicated they also want to go with all electric. There are plans to build more nuclear power plants in USA. Question of timing, no doubt.
The name is short and sweet. Gotta love the VOLT ! :shades:
Loren
The General appreciates you setting the bar so low but that is ridiculous. Your opinion of the matter that cost my Father $400 to fix isn't super important at all.
I listed real issues that I've observed first hand on products produced in the last 10 year. Don't get hysterical and tell me that the problems don't matter or that I'm part of some conspiracy to buy lower quality imports becasue I 'hate' a company.
When I buy a new car, I expect no unscheduled repairs for a number of years. That's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan. Not one of the GM buyers in my family have gotten the same thing from their GMs.
I've had the PS go on the '66 SS, the 81 and the 89 Olds, and none of them were just fine, as others stated. Of the three, the '66 was the easiest to drive the short distance, but parallel parking it was a chore. Hence I fixed the hose right away. The 89 the worse do to the rack-pinion, really needs the power assist from the pump - that pump was replaced right away. A non-power rack-pinion system is not as heavy.
I also had the ABS light go on in one of my vehicles and you could tell a difference in braking performance. This also had the ESP tied to it so that goes too. In most cases the ABS light just doesn't mean the ABS portion is out; it can also mean trouble with the braking system itself. Anyone that doesn't think warning lights going on/off aren't a reliability issue... I guess they just ignore it or do the electrical tape trick.
the brakes are mechanical, not electric- they will work as long as you have fluid in the lines. The bottom line is that one ABS problem over a lifetime of ownership doesnt qualify a car as junk- oh wait I forgot that imports have ZERO problems over their lifespan and anything more than that is unacceptable.
please reread what I said, not everyone hates domestic cars, but many do. Sure they have made many mistakes but their products are better than ever, especially GM's. Ford and Chrysler have a few nice vehicles but their lineups need far more work than GM's. Personally I dont buy cars based on my love for the corporate structure of each company or my disdain for former CEOs of these companies. I do get tired of import lovers constantly droning on and on about repaying the Big 3 for their arrogance and whatnot. I'm pretty sure they have been repaid in full with huge marketshare losses and millions of layoffs. I dont see anyone worrying about Toyota's arrogance for some reason. People worship Toyota to a large degree and seem to forget they are a money making company just like any other. No different from Microsoft, Walmart of McDonalds. I dont see the kind of love shown for Toyota shown to corporations in other fields. I guess its the mystique of the Japansese quality control and Kaizen and all that.
If the ABS light came on that early, at 15,000 miles, shouldn't it still be under warranty? Or was the time limit up on it?
Oh, on the subject of Nissans, my buddy's Xterra recently passed its 1 year anniversary. No problems yet, although the dealer gave us a scare. I had been noticing these oil drips in my driveway, but didn't think anything of it at first. My truck had been leaking oil, and I thought they were just from that. But then I started thinking that those spots looked awfully fresh, and the truck had been fixed back in April.
Sure enough, I looked up under, and saw oil dripping from the drain plug. He's had all of the oil changes done at the dealer. At first I wasn't going to touch it, in case they had stripped the plug or the pan by over-tightening, but then figured I'd take a chance and feel it. It was on so loose I could take it off with my bare hand! :surprise:
I shudder to think what the cost would be for a new Xterra motor, if that plug had fallen out and my buddy was too dense to shut it off immediately!
"When I buy a new car, I expect no unscheduled repairs for a number of years. That's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan. Not one of the GM buyers in my family have gotten the same thing from their GMs. "
dont buy a Toyota or Nissan then. Hondas may be OK. It quite apparent that you have been paying little attention to the Toyota quality problems of the last few years. Tranny problems, sludge problems. TUndra camshaft problems, tons of recalls etc. Not to mention all the problems Nissan had with the trucks they launched from their new plant a few years back. If you honestly think that import cars have no problems you are out of touch with reality. I dont doubt that YOU had good cars, but that isnt the case for everyone including my Toyota driving sister in law who just had to pay $1200 to get her AC fixed on a 5 year old camry.
BTW, the issues you mentioned were largely annoying and not serious failures that would leave one stranded. Not saying they are OK, but if that is the best you can do I am not impressed. You want a list of import problems I am aware of from friends and family? We had neighbors that got an Avalon in 1998 and the car was in the shop overnight several times and they were given a loaner vehicle. We moved 3 years later so I dont know how the car fared after that, but I do not it didnt start out well. My current neighbor bought a used I35 and it was in the shop all the time, he had a loaner car once a month it seemed.
I personally don't think Toyota will make the same mistake that GM and Ford made but as we all know... anything can happen. Since I have good experience with the Honda/Toyota products I am not planning on changing my purchasing decision anytime soon. However, if they become as arrogant as the domestics in the earlier years then I would have no problem ditching them and explore other options.
There are hardcore domestic lovers as well as import lovers. But most buyers are reasonable and basing their purchasing decision on past personal experience. Can't really fault someone keep going back to the same manufacture because they are happy with it, right?
I recent read a long term wrap up for the 300C SRT8 in R&T and they had maybe two minor issues during the car's stay in which they racked up 40k miles or so.
"You don't really need power boosters or turn signals either, but it would be nice if the things you paid for worked regularly. "
I'm sure people with camry tranny problems agree with you 100%. I find it so interesting that the camry got top reliabiity scores for CR in spite of the issues people are complaining about here on carspace. either none of the owners of bad camrys subscribe to CR or Toyota fans are too proud to acknowledge any issues.
One of my friends took his driving test in my '68 Dart when the pump was broken, years ago. He went out on the closed course with the cop that rides along with you to test you, and failed immediately for doing something stupid, like taking a turn too wide and going onto the wrong side of the test course road. The cop then made him switch seats, and the cop had to drive my car the rest of the way through the course. My buddy said the cop was cursing my car the whole way back!
We tried to find another car for my friend to take his test, but the only one we could come up with was his cousin's Mercury Lynx, which had a big crack in the windshield. That was a safety violation, and they refused to let him drive it on the course. So, back to the Dart. I taught him how to parallel park that thing, which was a chore, but doable, and he did pass the test the second time through it.
The only other car I had power steering problems with was a 1979 Chrysler Newport. It developed a slow leak, so I just kept a bottle of fluid under the hood in case the pump reservoir got too low. It was still managable when the fluid all drained out, but I still wanted to get it fixed as soon as possible, before it caused any other damage. I think it ended up costing about $200 to fix.
This is my point: there is no use in discussing GM products here or anywhere else with people who have your viewpoint. Import lovers will sit here and come up with 2 dozen things GM needs to do before they consider a GM product (i.e. make a family sedan that seats 5 in comfort with a 6 year warranty and 40mpg, etc.) and the bottom line is most import owners will NEVER buy anything that isnt from an Asian manufacturer. I doubt Toyota will ever let its quality become crappy, in fact I dont see any manufacturers ever getting back to the point where many brands were 10 years ago. its not just GM BTW, its the Euro brands, Mitsu, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, etc. If you are of the impression that the only reason to not buy Toyota is because your current Toyota was in the shop 5 times a year than you will never own anything other than Toyota. I'm not buying a car I'm not crazy about just because "the old one didnt give me problems" when there are so many choices on the market. Take the camry for example, its the de facto choice for so many people because it's "safe" to chose. With the Accord, Malibu and 6 coming out this fall I can bet that one or all three of them will be better dynamically, better looking and cheaper than the camry. Why would I give my money to Toyota unless i can be GUARANTEED the Camry would be more reliable than those three. Actually, I dont even care about having a few things repaired under warranty as long as the car is running and all major systems are fine- the real issues is post warranty when repairs come out of my pocket.
The companies trying to gain traction today are desperate for your business and it shows. The companies with the best reps are giving us conservative designs, high prices and are losing whatever engineering edge they had years ago.
For the first time ever, I agree with you. (It was bound to happen sometime.)
"Electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) is an automobile brake technology that automatically varies the amount of force applied to each of a vehicle's brakes, based on road conditions, speed, loading, etc. Often coupled with anti-lock braking systems, EBD can apply more or less braking pressure to each wheel in order to maximize stopping power.
In a hydraulic brake system not equipped with EBD, there is a fixed front-to-rear brake force bias which is determined by the hydraulic components (for example, caliper piston diameter). This bias may be shifted under heavy braking, by means of a mechanical proportioning valve, to prevent rear-wheel lockup. EBD instead applies brake force precisely through electronic control. It recognizes that driving conditions, braking situations and vehicle weight distributions are unique and constantly changing. Working together with Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), EBD uses sensors to determine which wheels would provide maximum braking for the conditions – whether that's the front or rear wheels, the left or right. The final result is more precise and effective braking under all conditions, and also makes the car much more stable under heavy braking, reducing front end dive."
And vehicles can have full-electric brakes as well...
How can we be in agreement when you just suggested that ANY problems within 15k miles are unacceptable and would be unheard of on an import?
Of course we dont agree much because I dont suscribe to the "imports dont have problems and all domestics are junk and thats why I would never waste my money on one of them" theory that you seem to believe. That definitely makes it hard for us to see eye to eye.
"Toyota's arent fun to drive and yet people will forgive any amount of problems and still swear off domestics for life. Your theory doesnt line up with reality. People in America HATE domestic cars with a passion and it has little to do with reason and logic. There are tens of millions of people who think they are too smart to be seen driving a domestic and will not consider one."
There will be people which will turn on Toyota, just because they are the top dog. Happens all the time - human nature, for some. As a whole, the reason it is not wide spread is that most customers are still satisfied with product and service.
As for handling, remember the Toyota Camry is not bad at handling, and is a good safe performing car which is in some ways taking the place of the Delta88 and the Cutlass. Think of the Toyotas today as filling the void for those in the middle class wanting a Cutlass like car, or even the Olds98 Regency, which today is the Avalon. Sure, there is Buick, but for too long it was like an almost forgotten arm of GM, and was sold mostly to the loyal fans of days-gone-bye Buick is Class, buyers. Now it is GM's game to win back. I would do it, as a first effort, with the New Malibu offered with a 6 sp and the i4 engine for $19,000 nicely equipped, with stability control, and a 3.6V6 version for say $22,000 or even $23K nicely equipped.
Loren
Explanation - it was 39 months old and the dealer was happy to ream him
"dont buy a Toyota or Nissan then... It quite apparent that you have been paying little attention to the Toyota quality problems of the last few years. Tranny problems, sludge problems.... Not to mention all the problems Nissan had with the trucks"
I've never owned a Toyota in my life and never said anything about Toyotas. I know that the trucks were problematic. I wouldn't buy a first year anything from a company that never made them before. Based on their decades of car building, I've never had an unscheduled repair, large or small, from my Nissan in 4 years.
"BTW, the issues you mentioned were largely annoying and not serious failures that would leave one stranded."
Since you don't think that they're a big deal, are you going to pay to fix them? Isn't it a little unreasonable to dismiss other people's problems as no big deal?
"At GM, the nation's No. 1 vehicle seller, June U.S. sales tumbled to 326,300 units from 413,473 a year earlier. On an adjusted basis, reflecting an extra selling day in June 2007, sales fell 24%. Wall Street expected an 8.7% drop."
The Saturn Outlook looks really nice. Saw one the other day and it looks light years better than the VUE. I think it will do well.
"There will be people which will turn on Toyota, just because they are the top dog. Happens all the time - human nature, for some. As a whole, the reason it is not wide spread is that most customers are still satisfied with product and service. "
Wrong. People will not hate Toyota because Americans have such lofty visions of the Japanese commitment to quality and efficiency. Japanese engineering, design and business methodology is put on a pedastal here and thus I dont EVER see people turning against Toyota. When you break everything down a lot of people simply believe that any car engineered in Japan or under the leadership of the Japanese is going to be superior because they are just better and smarter than their US counterparts. Nevermind the fact that they got the quality control methods from the US, nevermind the fact the many Asian branded cars are built by highly paid Americans just like Big 3 vehicles. Everything is "different" when its done by an Asian company. I really love it when import people vent about how highly paid "lazy" UAW workers are and how they dont want to support them because people with HS educations shouldnt be making that much- but then they fail to mention Toyota/Honda/Nissan pay their workers nearly as much, if not more.
"I would do it, as a first effort, with the New Malibu offered with a 6 sp and the i4 engine for $19,000 nicely equipped, with stability control, and a 3.6V6 version for say $22,000 or even $23K nicely equipped. "
not happening- you cant expect GM to make higher quality cars with modern powertrains and then charge Kia like prices. remember, Korean cars are cheap to build if they come from Korea and thus they cant give you tons of equipment for less. I bet Hyundai barely makes money on its US built Sonatas but they probably make so much profit on the cars they import that its acceptable. Chevy cant sell a fully loaded Malibu V6 for $23k and make money.
first of all if they are under warranty NO ONE is paying for them except GM. That is common sense. Secondly, if you dont think problems can be separated into annoyances and serious inconveniences then you arent being realistic. Not EVERY problem is a serious problem. Engine and tranny problems are serious- some problems are merely annoyances that you get fixed when you get an oil change. edmunds had a long term Pilot that wouldnt start while on a road trip through the desert. THAT is a serious problem to me.
"Based on their decades of car building, I've never had an unscheduled repair, large or small, from my Nissan in 4 years. "
dont know how many Nissans you've owned but if you have owned 3 or 4 and never had a warranty repair for ANYTHING I would say that is close to a miracle. I dont know how your experience would help anyone who bought a first or 2nd year Armada or Titan though. What good is quality if its not uniform across the board? first you say in your experience Nissans never need repairs but then you say you would never buy a 1st year vehicle- not even from Nissan. If Nissan has quality on lock as you say I dont see why one should have to be wary of their first year vehicles.
BTW, according to CR GM's new SUVs were quite reliable in their first year. Same applies to Fusion.
My prediction is that the New Malibu will take out the low end sales of the XE, with its i4 engine and even lower price and the V6 model New Malibu will be the death of Aura. Currently, the Astra offers some hope in that youthful buyers may step foot in the doors of Saturn, and perhaps be persuaded into getting the XR. That is all the rich kids. We gotta lotta them driving around here. Maybe the new college car for girls could be the Astra instead of the Beetles and Jettas. Side note the Jetta fell once the look changed. College gals must have said, " euwww, that's so not VW, maybe it's a Corolla." Daddy then had to come up with some other alternative, say a Bimmer they had for the family as a couple years old or for the poorer rich, a new Camry, or Civic Si coupe.
Loren
Other alternative is to dump the lesser lines and go specialty cars, like the RWD ones and SUVs which have some pricing power. The mid-size field is pretty crowded in the lower priced range. Style wise the New Malibu will be good, with a nice looking interior. This is OK, as in comparable to others. In order to command a premium, one looks to what is special, as in looks and type = say the Chrysler 300 selling for $28K or more with it's unique look, RWD and 3.5V6 engine. It raised the pricing power.
Loren
I bet and I'm pretty sure I know the words he was using
Loren,
How much of a price difference do you think it will take to make a splash? $500 less, $1K less, more?
-OR-
If it can't beat it on price, what special item(s) do you feel it "needs" to help it with sales? What item or items would pull you out of your Accord into one, if you were looking for a replacement?
Styling is subjective. You threw Chrysler in there well they dropped the ball big time with the new Sebring and the Caliber is not a viable enough for the Neon in my opinion since the Calber is a hatchback and the Neon was a sedan. Shouldn;t Chrysler have put a Sedan version out of the Caliber like Mazda does with the 3 in that they(Mazda) sell the 3 in both sedan and hatchback form. The interior in the Caliber is terrible and I have sat in it.
What Ford designs blow Honda out of the water? Maybe the Fusion looks better than the Accord since I could see somebody saying that. Well the Explorer looks better than the Pilot I'll give you that.
I am a import fan and I did happen to grow up in a buy american family.
"Import owners can continue to buy cars based on CR recommendations and the opinions of their friends but I will consider anything in my price range that looks good to me. Quality is close amongst brands today and resale value is not critical to me since I will be paying less for the car up front. When people get on their soapbox about resale value they dont mention that resale values are based on MSRPs and you arent paying MSRP for a domestic. They also dont mention that you will be paying more for an import and spending money on financing for that extra borrowing. In the end the gap isnt all that big. This is why people dont really talk actual dollar figures when bragging about resale value, they just focus on residual values."
I do look at CR yes for reliability ratings on cars and trucks but I mostly with the rest of your above paragraph though.
The 07 Camry V6 did get good reliabiliy scores but the 4cyl version only got a white circle which means average reliability.
Might be the first movie that has too much action! :surprise:
Camaro looked great, doh. :shades:
DrFill
When Edmunds figures out True Cost to Own numbers, they use True Market Value, not MSRP. That should be closer to a real purchase number than MSRP.
It's just completely arrogant to tell others what problems are big on their cars and what aren't worth complaining about it. I don't care if it's a tail light bulb. If it goes prematurely it's not acceptable. It's not acceptable for any car at 15k and barely 3 years old to have an unscheduled $400 repair.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=arCITDsM1kRw&refer=home
Visiting Host
What I did not like about the Aura XR was not so much pricing of the base model and features, but lack of stock, as in zero on the lot. And I may add the center console - dash area could be a bit more narrow as the knee hits it somewhat - nothing too major a gripe. Also on wish list is lower door window sills and the return of the emergency brake on the center console. Basically, the car seems like a darn good effort. Right now, I would say better pick than the Camry or Altima. Not to hip on Altima CVT transmission and the car seemed a bit like it transfered more road noise or something. The emergency brake is in a really strange location. I do like my Accord SE and it fits me right and handles well. The Aura XR power and paddle shift was pretty cool. Price wise, they almost got there, then could just not do the trade-in anywhere near enough for me. I am thinking Honda, in THIS case had more wiggle room on price, and used some up in the trade-in value. The car discount was an equal. I forget the exact difference on the trade-in, but it was something like a grand or so difference. So maybe Honda dealers used that, I think it was $750 cash to dealer, plus another $1,565, I think it was for discount which was the normal room for discounting, and just ate the other $250 or so discount out of the normal profits. It is a new ownership and they were a dealing, I guess. We went back and forth on price for some time on that day. And I did go to Saturn and Honda on the same day -- Saturn first.
Loren
This could kill off the current and future muscle cars.
Loren
Since people seem so interested in this transmission issue, does anyone know the total count of cars involved?
I have not personally driven the Camry with the new automatic. Has anyone taken the car on a test run to see if it acts strange in any way?
Loren
As long as GM is mostly associated with freeway cruisers and trucks, they are missing out. The new small cars are unproven, but the Vibe has a good record and is in an unusual niche -- gets great mileage but has more cargo capacity and is larger than comparable small cars.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Not for nothing, but this "offensive" we've been talking about has only at the begining. A couple of models (Lambda cuv's Aura, GMT 900's) aren't going to shake things up overnight. Lets see what happens a year from now when the new Malibu and CTS and G-8 are out, and we may even have a look at the new Impala.
From the Transformers movie, to putting Camrys in their showrooms, to the new Acadia platform, to hybrids in Cadillacs, GM has almost got their thing together.
What is important is that they keep growing with the Silverado, which is their heart.
GM wasn't too eager to report line sales yesterday.
DrFill
1- Toyota : _______ 1,170,872 up 8%
2- Chevy: _________ 1,141,796 down 7%
3- Ford: __________ 1,125,016 down 13%
4- Honda: _________ 675,389 up 3%
5- Dodge: __________ 574,223 down 3%
6- Nissan: _________ 471,584 up 3%
7- Chrysler: _______ 291,728 down 10%
8- Jeep: ___________ 247,142 up 13%
9- GMC: ____________ 241,202 up 3%
10-Hyundai: ________ 236,595 up 1%
Now that I've taken another look, I can see why. Same old, same old!
Tuning out again for a while.
Somehow, though, I've got to figure out a way to post my Camry repair spreadsheets, to show how very little I've had to spend on them -- both maintenance and repair. For that matter, my '98 Nissan Frontier keeps chugging along with nary a problem.
But what about all the posters that know a guy who heard of a guy that had to fix a Camry? Comparing that to your first hand experience, what will you do for them?
I keep a running total of all my car repairs, too, in an Excel spreadsheet. There have been a few times where I've listed some of the highlights of what my Intrepid has gone through in its roughly 133,000 miles, but it involved simply re-typing it into a message format.
I wonder if there's a way to post an Excel file on our Carspace pages?
The only other thing I can think of is to turn the file into a graphic file like a jpeg or something, and then post it somewhere as a picture.
Aura isnt selling so the Malibu isnt likely to make much of an impact on Aura sales. You keep harping on the Malibu "stealing" AUra sales but there arent many to steal in the first place. GM is going to sell way more Malibus than Aura and I'm sure they know this.