"What Ford designs blow Honda out of the water? Maybe the Fusion looks better than the Accord since I could see somebody saying that. Well the Explorer looks better than the Pilot I'll give you that. "
I'm no Ford fan but the Fusion looks better than Accord to me, same for edge vs Pilot, Explorer vs Pilot, F150 vs Ridgeline, Mustang vs........well they dont really have an equivalent. I have seen a few Taurus on the road and they dont even look too bad. I find few of Honda's designs interesting, the TL is by far the best thing they offer in terms of styling.
"It's just completely arrogant to tell others what problems are big on their cars and what aren't worth complaining about it. I don't care if it's a tail light bulb. If it goes prematurely it's not acceptable. It's not acceptable for any car at 15k and barely 3 years old to have an unscheduled $400 repair. "
As many have stated numerous times (and you continue to ignore) its important to realize that a car with 15K miles is covered by warranty. I have never heard of a car with 15k miles being older than 3 years until now, that is extremely rare but time can wear on equipment so if you have a 10 year old car with only 20K miles it still may have some problems. For any other century owner the ABS problem would've been covered. As I said if you believe ANY problems are unacceptable within the warranty period you shouldnt be buying any cars on the market. Even Toyotas have problems within the first 3 years.
"This has really got to stop or things will really start to unwind at GM. "
GM and Ford are shrinking but trying to become profitable- this is nothing new. Meanwhile Toyota and NIssan are steadily racking up gains by selling more fleet vehicles. GM needs to make money, not flood rental lots with cars to show better monthly sales results.
I think it's only inevitable that the Malibu will take some sales from the Aura, and the G6 as well. As a manufacturer offers more variations of the same basic platform, while it should push overall sales up, it is going to cause some in-fighting.
However, I don't think that the new Malibu will spell the death of the Aura. One thing Saturn has going for it is high sales/service satisfaction. Plus, I think the Aura has an upscale enough look to it that it should be able to stand on its own.
If anything, I think the new Malibu will put more pressure on the current Impala, and to a lesser degree the G6.
The .xls sheet can be saved as Text (MSDOS).txt format when you select Save As and under type of file to save as choose the Text(msdos).txt version.
You can also use CSV which is comma delimited and get a fairly clean copy. I tested the .txt version and it seemed to give a column formatted output.
Note: after saving the .txt format it will automatically open with notepad. To open other formats after saving I found using notepad the best. Don't open with Word or Wordpad; those seem to bring in some formatting. I used to manipulate large sets of data into arrangements I wanted for pivot tables and found copying with notepad and then placing into Word for doing mass changes worked best. But here pasting from Notepad into the posting box should work.
I'm not sure what one anecdotal experience with low amounts of repair for an older version of a car will prove. It doesn't extrapolate to the newer versions nor the current version-especially if you get one where the trans and motor and software don't work with your needed driving style such as traffic and merges which seems to fit one of the problems people are having. I've had trivial costs for repairs for my GM cars. Many people "forget" lots of repairs they've had done to their beloved car-sort of like overlooking faults in a spouse. Many repairs were done in the past at dealers without owner's knowledge under secret fixit programs to avoid publicity. Then came all the recall requirements for the government and Toyota had the most recalls ever in a year for any manufacturer! Let the light shine.
"But what about all the posters that know a guy who heard of a guy that had to fix a Camry? Comparing that to your first hand experience, what will you do for them?"
I think we need to be clear that the only people in denial here are people like yourself who insist that import cars have no problems. No one here is suggesting camrys havent been reliable in the past. Our problem (at least mine) is that people like you a) disregard accounts of problem free domestic cars and b)dismiss well documented problems with imports since your personal vehicles didnt have those problems. I dont see what is hard to understand. If your Toyotas didnt have problems I am happy for you but that doesnt help my sister in law out with the problems her camry has experienced. And keep in mind, I probably dont know ALL the problems she's had because like you she is (or was) a die hard Toyota backer who wouldnt be caught dead in "unreliable" domestic junk and probably doesnt like discussing the problems with her well engineered Toyota.
I recently looked at a FJ Cruiser up close and was surprised at the size of the panel gaps. In fact, I looked at another one a few days later to see if the issues were consistent and they were. The door-fender gap was so big that I could see pieces of of the hinges. The hood-fender gap was similarly large as was the rear hatch-bumper gap. On top of that the hatch was not properly aligned with the adjacent sheetmetal as evidenced by plastic trim that should have lined up on the two sections. I did read that Toyota left the Tundra with relatively gaping panel gaps so that it would look "tougher" (imagine if GM said that!) so perhaps the same is done for the FJ cruiser.
> GM needs to make money, not flood rental lots with cars to show better monthly sales results
Don't I recall that the armchair management for GM said they needed to stop selling to rentals (and fleets)?
Now that they're doing that the number of sales decreases because of same. Now they're supposed to not reduce sales to rentals and (fleets)? As for the fleet sales..., our police department and city buys a lot of Impalas and some SUV and pickup vehicles. They must be picking what's most dependable. Since Hondas and Camrys are made in the Midwest, they would buy those if they were as useable and cost effective.
The armchair managers need to pick one thing to pick on. They keep changing their pick points. Sort of like the Monday morning quarterbacks I used to hear at work. They had all the answers the day after the game but I didn't see them on the sidelines making the decision in the heat of the game under the rules being effected at the time. But the next day they'd kvetch about the referees and the calls, etc.
I have a summary page from my Excel spreadsheet posted in one of my CarSpace albums (link).
Seems like I pasted the page into Word and saved it as an html file and then pulled the graphic out. Or maybe I did a printscreen to a bmp and converted it. It's been a while. :shades:
The spreadsheet hasn't been updated for a while but I'm probably still running around $.34 a mile to own and operate the minivan.
There are a lot of these videos on youtube. Some are copies of the Toyota commercials but many are comparisons done fairly (except the dealership using a Tundra with limited slip/locked differential to out pull other trucks).
"GM and Ford are shrinking but trying to become profitable- this is nothing new."
I agree with you there.
"Meanwhile Toyota and Nissan are steadily racking up gains by selling more fleet vehicles."
I don;t think Toyota is racking up more fleet sales in order to post sales gains I mean the Camry up to May 2007 sales month only had a 7.7% sales rate to fleets. The Corolla had a 15.9% sales rate to fleets.
As for Nissan they are in the middle of the pack I think as far as fleets go: they don;t sell as much to fleets as the domestics do but they don;t sell less to rental fleets than Honda or Toyota do. As for Ford 36% of their total sales account towards fleet sales. GM has been more disciplined in their sales to fleets in which 24% of their total sales went to fleets as an article a couple weeks go suggested that was posted here on Edmunds.
Up to May 2007:
Nissan Altima 106K retail 127K total 16.4% go to fleets I think. Toyota Camry 177K retail 192K total 7.7 go to fleets Nissan Sentra 38K retail 48K total 20% go to fleets Toyota Corolla 121K retail 144K total 15.9% go to fleets Pontiac G6 45K retail 71K total 36% go to fleets Chevy Cobalt 43K retail 77K total Ford Focus 54K retail 74K total Ford Fusion 68K retail 20% or 22% go to fleets.
BTW, the reason for Nissan's big sales gain last month was because they didn;t have a stop-sale on the Altima this year like they did last year. Remember Nissan had the big recall for engine fires in the Altima last year?
Your hysterical responses are laughable. I don't read anything into anyone's posts. I don't talk about this account vs that account.
I discuss my firt hand experience. I only have had anough exposure to three brands recently to comment on: Honda, Nissan and GM. Since 99 the Honda and Nissan have been trouble free while all the GMs have had issues... period.
Whether you think the problems are OK or not is irrlevant. If you want to send my Dad $400, you're welcome to.
I care very much and very deeply about having to make warranty visits while a car is in warranty. If I have to go back to the dealer for something other than maintenance, then I become very annoyed. My time is wasted, my gas is wasted, my mileage on the vehicle is increased for a wasted trip to dealer.
Taking a car in for warranty service is a major inconvenience and cost. Especially with my valuable time. After warranty, it is the same, only FINANCIALLY annoying as well, in addition to the rest.
I have yet to experience seeing any of my parents, brother, or GF/Wife's (japanese built/assembled) Civics and Toyota's going in for warranty serivce, not even once! One visit is one visit too many. If you have to make more than two warranty visits in 3 years, that is very bad. Two visits is poor. One visit is "barely acceptable." (note my American assembled built Accord had to go in for warranty service multiple times for minor issues and once for a major one). I was not happy about that, but that's what the Ohioans gave me. My next Honda won't be purchased if it doesn't start with a J on the VIN #. I didn't eliminate Honda because they provided good service and warranty coverage after the terms had expired. Also, none of the problems I had left me stranded.
You also have to consider the cost of rentals for warranty visits; as you are without car for a day.
If the domestics paid for the rental (AND paid for a tow truck so as not to incur unnecessary mileage at my expense - and gas wastage) - then I might consider them; but I'm fearful with a domestic the "warranty period" costs will be too high.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
April 2007 Consumer Reports page 23 graph shows reliability for 1-10 year old vehicles for "aggregate" or all vehicles of a car company: Toyota, Honda, Nissan, GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. Obviously, ratings of individual models will fall above and below the plot point of their car company.
If Buick and Lexus have closed the gap with Lexus, then obviously there are other GM products that are far worse than the GM corporation plot point on page 23 of Consumer Reports graph.
It would be interesting to see a chart, such as CR page 23, for each car company to see the spread or deviation from the average for each of the models. Would guess that individual vehicle model plot points for Honda and Toyota do not have as wide of deviation from the corporation average as does GM. Plot points for Honda and Toyota might be tightly bunched around the corporate plot point and GM might have a large spread.
"The armchair managers need to pick one thing to pick on. They keep changing their pick points. Sort of like the Monday morning quarterbacks I used to hear at work. They had all the answers the day after the game but I didn't see them on the sidelines making the decision in the heat of the game under the rules being effected at the time. But the next day they'd kvetch about the referees and the calls, etc. "
right on target. When GM has higher fleet sales their successful sales months were discounted with statements like "I would love to see how many of those sales went to rentals". When GM had high sales with higher incentives the critics cried out "they only got those sales because they are giving cars away!". Now GM has reduced rental sales and incentives and people are surprised at GM's lower sales volume. Meanwhile no comment on Nissan and Toyota fleet sales that are creeping up month after month.
I cant wait until we start seeing Avalon police cruisers.
everyone else (Ford, GM, Toyota) seems capable of building high quality products here so Nissan has no excuse. A new plant isnt an excuse either. I dont recall of any mass problems on the CTS and it was a new product in a new factory.
"When Toyota makes trucks with large panel gaps, it's called "tougher styling." When GM does it, it's called "sloppy workmanship." "
right you are my man. I almost fell out the chair when I read Toyota's excuse for the Tundras less than class leading fit and finish. The Tundra has a great engine and a great ad campaign but beyond that its average. When I saw the interior at the auto show I realized the auto writers had been quite generous in their description. It was only slightly better than the F150.
there are any import lovers diehard enough to NOT report problems they've had with their Toyota's and Hondas. It just doesn't make sense NOT to report it.
I think relying on your own personal past experience with a brand is the most reliable and truthful way to know how a manufacturer works, functions, operates, and lasts.
CR is also an excellent fundamentally unbiased source, which is a no-nonsense publication.
Also, if the domestics DID make a vehicle much better than Camcords, and did back it up with the best warranty bumper to bumper and for powertrain, and did back up the warranty with rental car coverage, road side service, and did underprice the Japanese makes, and did score well in CR tests, then you'd have a no brainer. But until that happens, why depart from companies that have provided bullet proof vehicles for American consumers. I see nothing wrong with my Parents choice to buy two camry's in a row (A '95 and '01). Boring choice, yes, but reliable, very!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"You realize that the Camry is a leading seller in the US and a few complaints on Edmunds/Car Space does not signal the end of the world for Toyota. "
I do know that Toyota can do whatever it wants and there will always be millions ready to buy their next vehicle. The camry tranny problems are NOT the only Toyota problems to surface in recent years so you are only dealing with half the story by saying "a few camry problems on Carspace mean nothing considering the number of Camrys sold". When a car like the camry is selling at 40k units a month I dont believe "only" a few cars had problems with the FWD 6 speed, especially when you consider this is the first application.
"Whether you think the problems are OK or not is irrlevant. If you want to send my Dad $400, you're welcome to. "
Just relax, I dont know what your problem is but I think its undebatable that a car with 15k miles on the odometer is under warranty 99% of the time. I dont know many people who drive 5k miles a year. Besides, current Buicks have a 4 year warranty so that increases the chances of an owner being covered when his car hits 15k miles. Never said I wouldnt be mad if my car had an ABS problem, but I do know when my car had 15k miles it was under warranty. I mean why not buy a car and drive it 10k miles over 10 years and then in year 10 get mad because you have a problem that isnt covered by warranty.
I think someone just posted fleet stats. I dont think Corolla's have been sold to fleets at a 16% rate historically. I based my comment on all the imports I see on Enterprise lots and the Toyotas I am seeing with "e" stickers on the rear. Based on my observations this is a change because I rarely saw import tental cars in the 90s. I think the chart posted recently will show that import penetration into fleets is getting pretty high in some cases.
first of all lets just establish that I never said one should WANT to go to the dealer for repairs nor did I suggest owners dont have a right to get frustrated with any problems. What I did say is that minor issues can be corrected when you take the car in for service, if you read Edmunds LT tests they often mention that they bring up issue when they go in for service. They dont drop everything and waste gas and rush to the dealer to get minor issues resolved. Dont be ridiculous.
Look, you can believe the recent JD power and CR results or you cannot. Its up to you. There is ample evidence that domestic cars are getting more and more reliable. In fact many of the worst new vehicles of the last decade or so were imports- think M class, Nissan trucks, etc. I havent seen any evidence or heard much about any GM models of the last 5-6 years having major quality problems, at least none that werent solved quickly. Its your choice to never consider any domestic models, but my question is why even post here? I just dont see what anyone gets out of a discussion about brands they never plan to own. I find that import owners arent just content to swear off domestics for life and go on about their business, they have to make sure EVERYONE knows that imports are superior in every way and are the "only" choice for the savvy buyer.
Well the cartoon dimensions of new cars is a deal breaker for me, at least. I doubt I am alone in not wanting a car that wide, the bulkier looking - high belt line--small windows--with top lowered, which looks like it should be used on a Chrysler 300 or a chop top Mercury. The original Camaro is drop dead gorgeous. In a world where there is a need to conserve on gas, they are making the car heavier than ever, and puffed up. Loren
The old saw is that domestics require repairs while imports go in for maintenance.
All cars break and even the problem make/models have a warranty rate probably within 5%. GM's overall claims rate for 2006 was 2.6%, a 12% decrease from '05. No idea what the rate is for Toyota or Honda, and my link says you can't compare the rates between companies anyway. But that claims rate decrease is significant. (Warranty Week)
Camry's fleet number actually WENT DOWN percentage-wise (as well as number-wise) and Impala's WENT UP.
Didn't GM was the one yapping about they are going to reduce fleet sale like almost 2 years ago? Why would a company that vows for REDUCE fleet sales actually has a model (Impala) with increasing fleet sales?
If you don't think OVER 50% of Impala (GM's best selling sedan) went to fleet is bad then I don't know what is.
Oh, by the way, this is a GM board so why should we constantly mentioning suchs like Toyota, Honda and Nissan? Just because those companies are doing something that's not so desirable doesn't justify whatever GM's doing is right.
"The definitive truth about who is fleet-happy and who ain't: "
And who cares? I never said domestics dont sell to fleets. The fleet argument is brought up over and over and over and yet I dont base my opinions of cars on fleet sales. The mazda 6 gets 42% of its sales from fleets according to that chart and yet I dont hear anyone saying its a piece of crap due to that. Only domestic cars are crap when they have a high % of fleet sales. The Sonata and Lacrosse have similar fleet %'s but I guarantee you that you and your cohorts wouldnt identify the Sonata a fleet car piece of crap but the Lacrosse would be trashed for having no retail appeal.
So then, why the Aura XE, if it is not suppose to sell? Just when it looked promising for Saturn, you've pulled the rug out from under there feet. Oh well, maybe the Astra will sell.
Too many cars of the same metal, too few buyers. Loren
"Didn't GM was the one yapping about they are going to reduce fleet sale like almost 2 years ago? Why would a company that vows for REDUCE fleet sales actually has a model (Impala) with increasing fleet sales? "
newsflash: GM has more models than Impala. I know its shocking but it is possible that ONE model could have an increase in fleet sales while the company as a WHOLE experiences a decline in fleet sales. Its pretty simple actually.
Unlike most automakers, GM actually provides some detail about how many fleet sales it makes.
Lots of Impala fleet sales are to the government, including police sales. As someone has explained here many times, not all fleet sales are bad. The rental fleet sales that make up the majority of import fleet sales are the bad ones.
"Just because those companies are doing something that's not so desirable doesn't justify whatever GM's doing is right. "
Have no clue what you are talking about. Never said fleet sales are a good thing for GM or that they are "right". GM cant force anyone to buy their cars (hard to believe I know) so any sales they make are based on price. My guess is GM has lowered discounts to rental companies to make their cars less attractive and thus reducing sales. Rental car agencies still need cars. Guess where they are getting them?
1487: I think the chart posted recently will show that import penetration into fleets is getting pretty high in some cases.
The increase in import penetration of the fleet market is being led by Hyundai, not Toyota. The percentages of total sales going to fleets for certain Hyundais are pretty shocking.
But Camry fleet sales are DOWN for the new model - it had been in the 12-15 percent range for the previous generation at the end of its life cycle, and is now at 7.7 percent for the new model.
As for GM reporting lower sales because of decreased fleet sales - only about 15 percent of June's decline could be explained by reduced fleet sales. The rest is because of lower retail sales.
These figures are troubling because they show that several of GM's touted new models - LaCrosse and the big pickups, for example - are either losing steam or running into rough market conditions. The LaCrosse isn't brand new, but it should be recording better sales figures than these at this point in its life cycle. The big pickups are getting hammered by volatile gas prices and a collapsing housing market.
(Note - doesn't matter how good the big pickups are. If they aren't selling because of rough market conditions, they aren't selling, period. That is what matters. These vehicles were to play a critical part of GM's turnaround effort. If they aren't selling as well as GM expected, GM is in trouble. Before the epithet of "import lover" gets tossed around, I think the big GM pickups and SUVs are very good vehicles, but they face a tough market. Which is what really matters.)
The Saturn Aura just isn't catching on with customers, probably because:
1. people looking for vehicles with this combination of price and content don't shop Saturn dealers, while people who shop Saturn dealers aren't looking for something like the Aura; and 2. the no-haggle concept hurts these cars, as even Toyota and Honda have to discount the Camry and Accord, respectively, to compete in this brutally competitive segment. The Aura's STICKER price may be competitive, but it is not competitive with a discounted Camry or Accord, which have not sold for MSRP for years.
1487: Unlike most automakers, GM actually provides some detail about how many fleet sales it makes.
Judging by the figures at fleet-central.com, it appears as though virtually EVERY auto maker provides details as to how many fleet sales it makes. So GM is hardly more open than most of the other major auto makers.
"Also, if the domestics DID make a vehicle much better than Camcords, and did back it up with the best warranty bumper to bumper and for powertrain, and did back up the warranty with rental car coverage, road side service, and did underprice the Japanese makes, and did score well in CR tests, then you'd have a no brainer. "
They do make some cars that are better than some imports. The only imports with great reps are Toyota and Honda. Lets not confuse them with Hyundai, Mitsu, Mazda, etc. Nissan is in the middle.
GM has a better warranty, gives you a car when your car is in for service, has lower prices, better styling (generally speaking), matches performance and some of its cars are placing ahead of the imports you are talking about. Aura XR has yet to be compared to Altima V6 or Accord V6 but it did win NACY over Camry and was placed ahead of camry by Autoweek and was named Best Fam Car by Motorweek.
It would definitely be helpful to know what GM is offering before blasting them for being uncompetitive. Some import companies (most) dont even offer roadside assistance when your car is under warranty. As far as I know Toyota and Honda do not guarantee you a replacment car when your car is in for warranty work. GM does offer that.
The Saturn Aura is not selling because GM made the blunder of not offering a good 4 cylinder engine for this model. Remember that over 60% (maybe higher now) of Camry/Accord/Altima/Mazda6/Sonata sales are now the 4 cylinder versions, and if gasoline maintains the current price levels, that percentage may change. But GM did not have the proper engine for this car. Maybe they should try buying Honda engines like they did some years ago for the VUE.
Again, a bad management decision by GM leads to failure in the market. Their 30 year string of bad decisions continues...
But in my business I'm not providing inferior products. I feel like as good as the US built Toyota's and Honda's are, they are still not up to the level of their Japanese equivalents.
My American built Honda Accord had some rattle issues. The Japanese built Civics have NO rattles, no issues. NONE, ZEro, zip. (OK, the '07 has one plastic trim piece at the tiny front side window that appears to not meet Honda's superior .001 mm maximum panel gap spec. :P
Not all american workers are producing inferior product, but the American auto workers appear to be doing it for over 30 years now, or even longer. That being said, I'm not sure how much of my 95 Dodge was built in the US and how much was in Mexico. The Mexican VW's seem to be doing quite poorly as well.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
I'm no Ford fan but the Fusion looks better than Accord to me, same for edge vs Pilot, Explorer vs Pilot, F150 vs Ridgeline, Mustang vs........well they dont really have an equivalent. I have seen a few Taurus on the road and they dont even look too bad. I find few of Honda's designs interesting, the TL is by far the best thing they offer in terms of styling.
As many have stated numerous times (and you continue to ignore) its important to realize that a car with 15K miles is covered by warranty. I have never heard of a car with 15k miles being older than 3 years until now, that is extremely rare but time can wear on equipment so if you have a 10 year old car with only 20K miles it still may have some problems. For any other century owner the ABS problem would've been covered. As I said if you believe ANY problems are unacceptable within the warranty period you shouldnt be buying any cars on the market. Even Toyotas have problems within the first 3 years.
GM and Ford are shrinking but trying to become profitable- this is nothing new. Meanwhile Toyota and NIssan are steadily racking up gains by selling more fleet vehicles. GM needs to make money, not flood rental lots with cars to show better monthly sales results.
However, I don't think that the new Malibu will spell the death of the Aura. One thing Saturn has going for it is high sales/service satisfaction. Plus, I think the Aura has an upscale enough look to it that it should be able to stand on its own.
If anything, I think the new Malibu will put more pressure on the current Impala, and to a lesser degree the G6.
You can also use CSV which is comma delimited and get a fairly clean copy. I tested the .txt version and it seemed to give a column formatted output.
Note: after saving the .txt format it will automatically open with notepad. To open other formats after saving I found using notepad the best. Don't open with Word or Wordpad; those seem to bring in some formatting. I used to manipulate large sets of data into arrangements I wanted for pivot tables and found copying with notepad and then placing into Word for doing mass changes worked best. But here pasting from Notepad into the posting box should work.
I'm not sure what one anecdotal experience with low amounts of repair for an older version of a car will prove. It doesn't extrapolate to the newer versions nor the current version-especially if you get one where the trans and motor and software don't work with your needed driving style such as traffic and merges which seems to fit one of the problems people are having. I've had trivial costs for repairs for my GM cars. Many people "forget" lots of repairs they've had done to their beloved car-sort of like overlooking faults in a spouse. Many repairs were done in the past at dealers without owner's knowledge under secret fixit programs to avoid publicity. Then came all the recall requirements for the government and Toyota had the most recalls ever in a year for any manufacturer! Let the light shine.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think we need to be clear that the only people in denial here are people like yourself who insist that import cars have no problems. No one here is suggesting camrys havent been reliable in the past. Our problem (at least mine) is that people like you a) disregard accounts of problem free domestic cars and b)dismiss well documented problems with imports since your personal vehicles didnt have those problems. I dont see what is hard to understand. If your Toyotas didnt have problems I am happy for you but that doesnt help my sister in law out with the problems her camry has experienced. And keep in mind, I probably dont know ALL the problems she's had because like you she is (or was) a die hard Toyota backer who wouldnt be caught dead in "unreliable" domestic junk and probably doesnt like discussing the problems with her well engineered Toyota.
Don't I recall that the armchair management for GM said they needed to stop selling to rentals (and fleets)?
Now that they're doing that the number of sales decreases because of same. Now they're supposed to not reduce sales to rentals and (fleets)? As for the fleet sales..., our police department and city buys a lot of Impalas and some SUV and pickup vehicles. They must be picking what's most dependable. Since Hondas and Camrys are made in the Midwest, they would buy those if they were as useable and cost effective.
The armchair managers need to pick one thing to pick on. They keep changing their pick points. Sort of like the Monday morning quarterbacks I used to hear at work. They had all the answers the day after the game but I didn't see them on the sidelines making the decision in the heat of the game under the rules being effected at the time. But the next day they'd kvetch about the referees and the calls, etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Seems like I pasted the page into Word and saved it as an html file and then pulled the graphic out. Or maybe I did a printscreen to a bmp and converted it. It's been a while. :shades:
The spreadsheet hasn't been updated for a while but I'm probably still running around $.34 a mile to own and operate the minivan.
When GM does it, it's called "sloppy workmanship."
When GM does it, it's called "sloppy workmanship."
There's not really a double standard in people's talk about the two different companies, is there?
Take a look at Tundra in this video. It's the second road test. The first is GM. Ford 150 looks pretty good.
link title
or this
link title
There are a lot of these videos on youtube. Some are copies of the Toyota commercials but many are comparisons done fairly (except the dealership using a Tundra with limited slip/locked differential to out pull other trucks).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree with you there.
"Meanwhile Toyota and Nissan are steadily racking up gains by selling more fleet vehicles."
I don;t think Toyota is racking up more fleet sales in order to post sales gains I mean the Camry up to May 2007 sales month only had a 7.7% sales rate to fleets. The Corolla had a 15.9% sales rate to fleets.
As for Nissan they are in the middle of the pack I think as far as fleets go: they don;t sell as much to fleets as the domestics do but they don;t sell less to rental fleets than Honda or Toyota do. As for Ford 36% of their total sales account towards fleet sales. GM has been more disciplined in their sales to fleets in which 24% of their total sales went to fleets as an article a couple weeks go suggested that was posted here on Edmunds.
Up to May 2007:
Nissan Altima 106K retail 127K total 16.4% go to fleets I think.
Toyota Camry 177K retail 192K total 7.7 go to fleets
Nissan Sentra 38K retail 48K total 20% go to fleets
Toyota Corolla 121K retail 144K total 15.9% go to fleets
Pontiac G6 45K retail 71K total 36% go to fleets
Chevy Cobalt 43K retail 77K total
Ford Focus 54K retail 74K total
Ford Fusion 68K retail 20% or 22% go to fleets.
BTW, the reason for Nissan's big sales gain last month was because they didn;t have a stop-sale on the Altima this year like they did last year. Remember Nissan had the big recall for engine fires in the Altima last year?
When GM does it, it's called "sloppy workmanship."
There's not really a double standard in people's talk about the two different companies, is there? Tell me it isn't true.
If you don;t like it don;t buy it.
I discuss my firt hand experience. I only have had anough exposure to three brands recently to comment on: Honda, Nissan and GM. Since 99 the Honda and Nissan have been trouble free while all the GMs have had issues... period.
Whether you think the problems are OK or not is irrlevant. If you want to send my Dad $400, you're welcome to.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2007/cars_web.pdf
DrFill
Having Lexus-like gaps may not be appropriate on the trail, and could do more harm than good.
Anyone with questions on it's quality, check this out:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=115586
DrFill
I am really interested to find out what's G6 and Impala's fleet number in 2006 compare to 2007.
Uh...take some yuppie soccer-mommy to Williams-Sonoma to buy some overpriced cooking utensils?
Taking a car in for warranty service is a major inconvenience and cost. Especially with my valuable time. After warranty, it is the same, only FINANCIALLY annoying as well, in addition to the rest.
I have yet to experience seeing any of my parents, brother, or GF/Wife's (japanese built/assembled) Civics and Toyota's going in for warranty serivce, not even once! One visit is one visit too many. If you have to make more than two warranty visits in 3 years, that is very bad. Two visits is poor. One visit is "barely acceptable." (note my American assembled built Accord had to go in for warranty service multiple times for minor issues and once for a major one). I was not happy about that, but that's what the Ohioans gave me. My next Honda won't be purchased if it doesn't start with a J on the VIN #. I didn't eliminate Honda because they provided good service and warranty coverage after the terms had expired. Also, none of the problems I had left me stranded.
You also have to consider the cost of rentals for warranty visits; as you are without car for a day.
If the domestics paid for the rental (AND paid for a tow truck so as not to incur unnecessary mileage at my expense - and gas wastage) - then I might consider them; but I'm fearful with a domestic the "warranty period" costs will be too high.
Impala
2006: 11,611 commercial; 3,677 government; 50,629 rental; 54,268 retail
2007: 23,036 commercial; 12,438 government; 44,660 rental; 68,565 retail
G6
2006: 440 commercial; 158 government; 30,003 rental; 41,797 retail
2007: 724 commercial; 134 government; 24,897 rental; 45,380 retail
Camry
2006: 2,711 commercial; 150 government; 18,657 rental; 146,011 retail
2007: 5,482 commercial; 214 government; 9,066 rental; 177,431 retail
Accord
2006: 917 commercial; 139 government; 678 rental; 152,893 retail
2007: 1,454 commercial; 127 government; 6,414 rental; 155,556 retail
Altima
2006: 1,708 commercial; 65 government; 14,087 rental; 94,957 retail
2007: 1,338 commercial; 29 government; 19,512 rental; 106,705 retail
If Buick and Lexus have closed the gap with Lexus, then obviously there are other GM products that are far worse than the GM corporation plot point on page 23 of Consumer Reports graph.
It would be interesting to see a chart, such as CR page 23, for each car company to see the spread or deviation from the average for each of the models. Would guess that individual vehicle model plot points for Honda and Toyota do not have as wide of deviation from the corporation average as does GM. Plot points for Honda and Toyota might be tightly bunched around the corporate plot point and GM might have a large spread.
right on target. When GM has higher fleet sales their successful sales months were discounted with statements like "I would love to see how many of those sales went to rentals". When GM had high sales with higher incentives the critics cried out "they only got those sales because they are giving cars away!". Now GM has reduced rental sales and incentives and people are surprised at GM's lower sales volume. Meanwhile no comment on Nissan and Toyota fleet sales that are creeping up month after month.
I cant wait until we start seeing Avalon police cruisers.
When GM does it, it's called "sloppy workmanship." "
right you are my man. I almost fell out the chair when I read Toyota's excuse for the Tundras less than class leading fit and finish. The Tundra has a great engine and a great ad campaign but beyond that its average. When I saw the interior at the auto show I realized the auto writers had been quite generous in their description. It was only slightly better than the F150.
I think relying on your own personal past experience with a brand is the most reliable and truthful way to know how a manufacturer works, functions, operates, and lasts.
CR is also an excellent fundamentally unbiased source, which is a no-nonsense publication.
Also, if the domestics DID make a vehicle much better than Camcords, and did back it up with the best warranty bumper to bumper and for powertrain, and did back up the warranty with rental car coverage, road side service, and did underprice the Japanese makes, and did score well in CR tests, then you'd have a no brainer. But until that happens, why depart from companies that have provided bullet proof vehicles for American consumers. I see nothing wrong with my Parents choice to buy two camry's in a row (A '95 and '01). Boring choice, yes, but reliable, very!
I do know that Toyota can do whatever it wants and there will always be millions ready to buy their next vehicle. The camry tranny problems are NOT the only Toyota problems to surface in recent years so you are only dealing with half the story by saying "a few camry problems on Carspace mean nothing considering the number of Camrys sold". When a car like the camry is selling at 40k units a month I dont believe "only" a few cars had problems with the FWD 6 speed, especially when you consider this is the first application.
Source and stats please...
Oh, it's 1487, never mind then...
:sick:
Just relax, I dont know what your problem is but I think its undebatable that a car with 15k miles on the odometer is under warranty 99% of the time. I dont know many people who drive 5k miles a year. Besides, current Buicks have a 4 year warranty so that increases the chances of an owner being covered when his car hits 15k miles. Never said I wouldnt be mad if my car had an ABS problem, but I do know when my car had 15k miles it was under warranty. I mean why not buy a car and drive it 10k miles over 10 years and then in year 10 get mad because you have a problem that isnt covered by warranty.
Look, you can believe the recent JD power and CR results or you cannot. Its up to you. There is ample evidence that domestic cars are getting more and more reliable. In fact many of the worst new vehicles of the last decade or so were imports- think M class, Nissan trucks, etc. I havent seen any evidence or heard much about any GM models of the last 5-6 years having major quality problems, at least none that werent solved quickly. Its your choice to never consider any domestic models, but my question is why even post here? I just dont see what anyone gets out of a discussion about brands they never plan to own. I find that import owners arent just content to swear off domestics for life and go on about their business, they have to make sure EVERYONE knows that imports are superior in every way and are the "only" choice for the savvy buyer.
Loren
All cars break and even the problem make/models have a warranty rate probably within 5%. GM's overall claims rate for 2006 was 2.6%, a 12% decrease from '05. No idea what the rate is for Toyota or Honda, and my link says you can't compare the rates between companies anyway. But that claims rate decrease is significant. (Warranty Week)
Camry's fleet number actually WENT DOWN percentage-wise (as well as number-wise) and Impala's WENT UP.
Didn't GM was the one yapping about they are going to reduce fleet sale like almost 2 years ago? Why would a company that vows for REDUCE fleet sales actually has a model (Impala) with increasing fleet sales?
If you don't think OVER 50% of Impala (GM's best selling sedan) went to fleet is bad then I don't know what is.
Oh, by the way, this is a GM board so why should we constantly mentioning suchs like Toyota, Honda and Nissan? Just because those companies are doing something that's not so desirable doesn't justify whatever GM's doing is right.
And who cares? I never said domestics dont sell to fleets. The fleet argument is brought up over and over and over and yet I dont base my opinions of cars on fleet sales. The mazda 6 gets 42% of its sales from fleets according to that chart and yet I dont hear anyone saying its a piece of crap due to that. Only domestic cars are crap when they have a high % of fleet sales. The Sonata and Lacrosse have similar fleet %'s but I guarantee you that you and your cohorts wouldnt identify the Sonata a fleet car piece of crap but the Lacrosse would be trashed for having no retail appeal.
Too many cars of the same metal, too few buyers.
Loren
newsflash: GM has more models than Impala. I know its shocking but it is possible that ONE model could have an increase in fleet sales while the company as a WHOLE experiences a decline in fleet sales. Its pretty simple actually.
Unlike most automakers, GM actually provides some detail about how many fleet sales it makes.
Lots of Impala fleet sales are to the government, including police sales. As someone has explained here many times, not all fleet sales are bad. The rental fleet sales that make up the majority of import fleet sales are the bad ones.
"Just because those companies are doing something that's not so desirable doesn't justify whatever GM's doing is right. "
Have no clue what you are talking about. Never said fleet sales are a good thing for GM or that they are "right". GM cant force anyone to buy their cars (hard to believe I know) so any sales they make are based on price. My guess is GM has lowered discounts to rental companies to make their cars less attractive and thus reducing sales. Rental car agencies still need cars. Guess where they are getting them?
The increase in import penetration of the fleet market is being led by Hyundai, not Toyota. The percentages of total sales going to fleets for certain Hyundais are pretty shocking.
But Camry fleet sales are DOWN for the new model - it had been in the 12-15 percent range for the previous generation at the end of its life cycle, and is now at 7.7 percent for the new model.
As for GM reporting lower sales because of decreased fleet sales - only about 15 percent of June's decline could be explained by reduced fleet sales. The rest is because of lower retail sales.
These figures are troubling because they show that several of GM's touted new models - LaCrosse and the big pickups, for example - are either losing steam or running into rough market conditions. The LaCrosse isn't brand new, but it should be recording better sales figures than these at this point in its life cycle. The big pickups are getting hammered by volatile gas prices and a collapsing housing market.
(Note - doesn't matter how good the big pickups are. If they aren't selling because of rough market conditions, they aren't selling, period. That is what matters. These vehicles were to play a critical part of GM's turnaround effort. If they aren't selling as well as GM expected, GM is in trouble. Before the epithet of "import lover" gets tossed around, I think the big GM pickups and SUVs are very good vehicles, but they face a tough market. Which is what really matters.)
The Saturn Aura just isn't catching on with customers, probably because:
1. people looking for vehicles with this combination of price and content don't shop Saturn dealers, while people who shop Saturn dealers aren't looking for something like the Aura; and
2. the no-haggle concept hurts these cars, as even Toyota and Honda have to discount the Camry and Accord, respectively, to compete in this brutally competitive segment. The Aura's STICKER price may be competitive, but it is not competitive with a discounted Camry or Accord, which have not sold for MSRP for years.
Judging by the figures at fleet-central.com, it appears as though virtually EVERY auto maker provides details as to how many fleet sales it makes. So GM is hardly more open than most of the other major auto makers.
Where there any brands missing on that chart?
They do make some cars that are better than some imports. The only imports with great reps are Toyota and Honda. Lets not confuse them with Hyundai, Mitsu, Mazda, etc. Nissan is in the middle.
GM has a better warranty, gives you a car when your car is in for service, has lower prices, better styling (generally speaking), matches performance and some of its cars are placing ahead of the imports you are talking about. Aura XR has yet to be compared to Altima V6 or Accord V6 but it did win NACY over Camry and was placed ahead of camry by Autoweek and was named Best Fam Car by Motorweek.
It would definitely be helpful to know what GM is offering before blasting them for being uncompetitive. Some import companies (most) dont even offer roadside assistance when your car is under warranty. As far as I know Toyota and Honda do not guarantee you a replacment car when your car is in for warranty work. GM does offer that.
GM, Ford and Chrysler
Again, a bad management decision by GM leads to failure in the market. Their 30 year string of bad decisions continues...
My American built Honda Accord had some rattle issues.
The Japanese built Civics have NO rattles, no issues. NONE, ZEro, zip. (OK, the '07 has one plastic trim piece at the tiny front side window that appears to not meet Honda's superior .001 mm maximum panel gap spec.
Not all american workers are producing inferior product, but the American auto workers appear to be doing it for over 30 years now, or even longer. That being said, I'm not sure how much of my 95 Dodge was built in the US and how much was in Mexico. The Mexican VW's seem to be doing quite poorly as well.