You know, I actually agree with you to a point on the RAV4, the interior is "cheaper" than the exterior (which looks good). I'd stop short of calling it cheap, it's "average" in my opinion. It definitely smells of Corolla-like economy car interior, and that doesn't cut it for me when the price is not very "economy-like" in the Limited V6 trim.
For the price, the RAV4 should have a nicer interior, and I don't mind an engine that is capable of causing problems related to "too much" power.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"How come no other companies have this problem with not selling their superior products because people just hate them? "
I love this line of argument. Why is it that import apologizers cannot accept that the quality and competence of a product is only ONE part of what drives sales? To me this is a simple concept but to import people it seems unfathomable. For example, the common argument made by import people is: "domestics have to be crap because they are losing sales" or maybe "the camry has to be the best car on the market, just look at its sales!". Throughout the 90s the Explorer was the best selling SUV and/or family vehicle in the US. I NEVER heard anyone suggest that this proved Ford knew consumers better than Toyota or Honda and thusly the Explorer sold over 400k units a year. Likewise I have never hear an import lover suggest that the F150 is superior to the Tundra (old or new) and then use the sales numbers as proof. Last month the Ford sold about 3 times as many F150s as Toyota did Tundras. this was with Ford having a decline and Toyota having a 140% increase or something. Do those numbers mean the F150 is 3 times better than the Tundra? of course not. Image, name recognition, dealer strength, journalists ratings, advertising, etc. all make a difference. Just look at the Passat for example, most reviewers feel its one of the better family sedans on the market today but due to VWs image, lack of ad dollars, dealership network, etc. the Passat is an also ran in terms of sales. Just like many car buyers are only going to check out Toyota and HOnda dealers when shopping for a car many truck shoppers arent going to a Toyota dealer to look for a pickup even though the Tundra is a strong product.
In spite of all the gloom and doom over GM's falling share and the often repeated mantra that no one wants GM products they still sell more cars and trucks than Toyota in the US. and yes I know fleet sales are part of it, fleet sales are part of the business. In Europe they use MBs as taxis and Audis as police cars and yet I dont hear GM bashers saying "if the A6 is so good, why does Audi need to push them onto government agencies". If GM goes out of business, you can bet that Toyota will be providing police cars, taxis and rental cars for Americans. In fact, if Toyotas were cheaper they probably would have a larger share of fleet business now. I am already seeing more and more Tacoma corporate fleet trucks on the road.
"I'd stop short of calling it cheap, it's "average" in my opinion. It definitely smells of Corolla-like economy car interior, and that doesn't cut it for me when the price is not very "economy-like" in the Limited V6 trim. "
average compared to what? The CR-v, escape, Vue and Sante Fe have better looking interiors. The Rav4s interior belongs in a $16k Scion, not a truck that can run $32k loaded. Toyota's lower end products have cheap interiors. Scion, FJ cruiser, Yaris (terrible), etc.
1487: I love this line of argument. Why is it that import apologizers cannot accept that the quality and competence of a product is only ONE part of what drives sales? To me this is a simple concept but to import people it seems unfathomable.
It isn't the "import lovers" who have problems looking beyond quality and competence. Others have noted that several vehicles from foreign nameplates are superior in handling, refinement, ergonomics and fit-and-finish. These views are usually brushed off with: "I don't see it"; or "That's not what I think"; or "(Insert name of offending publication here) is 1. biased, 2. ignorant, 3. or on the payroll of company making the praised foreign product."
Which, to me is unfathomable...
1487: For example, the common argument made by import people is: "domestics have to be crap because they are losing sales" or maybe "the camry has to be the best car on the market, just look at its sales!".
Who exactly are "import people"? Are we now outsourcing childbirth, too?
1487: Throughout the 90s the Explorer was the best selling SUV and/or family vehicle in the US. I NEVER heard anyone suggest that this proved Ford knew consumers better than Toyota or Honda and thusly the Explorer sold over 400k units a year.
Several reviewers praised the Explorer when it debuted. Toyota had the 4Runner, but, as I recall, it was not considered a major competitor at that time. Honda tried to fill the gap with a rebadged Isuzu Rodeo (the Passport) and wasn't exactly praised for the effort.
The Explorer was considered a MAJOR hit for Ford by virtually every publication at that time, and reviewers noted that it took years for other companies - ESPECIALLY Honda - to field a worthy competitor.
1487: Just look at the Passat for example, most reviewers feel its one of the better family sedans on the market today but due to VWs image, lack of ad dollars, dealership network, etc. the Passat is an also ran in terms of sales.
Well, yes, because it carries the stigma of that legendary (as in, legendarily bad) VW reliability. Plus, VW's dealer network has a terrible reputation for providing quality service. That is the big reason it is an also-ran. It appeals to a core of people who are willing to risk VW's quality woes to get a German driving experience and a very high level of build quality.
1487: In spite of all the gloom and doom over GM's falling share and the often repeated mantra that no one wants GM products they still sell more cars and trucks than Toyota in the US.
And how many cars and truck models does GM offer compared to Toyota (and Lexus and Scion)?
1487: and yes I know fleet sales are part of it, fleet sales are part of the business. In Europe they use MBs as taxis and Audis as police cars and yet I dont hear GM bashers saying "if the A6 is so good, why does Audi need to push them onto government agencies". If GM goes out of business, you can bet that Toyota will be providing police cars, taxis and rental cars for Americans. In fact, if Toyotas were cheaper they probably would have a larger share of fleet business now. I am already seeing more and more Tacoma corporate fleet trucks on the road.
And we've noted that there is a difference between corporate, government and rental car company sales, and that the Impala is popular with many police departments.
But GM still depends too heavily on sales to rental car companies for many key models. If only about 7.7 percent of total Impala or Malibu sales went to rental car companies, no one would complain. But when the fleet sale totals are over 50 percent of all sales, as they are for many GM models (including the Impala and Malibu), and most of those fleet sales are to rental car companies, then there is a problem.
You are too kind, the current Avalon is butt ugly. It has sales to prove it. It is down 18% from last year. I imagine it is time to just drop it. They could probably unload them on the rental market if they were not so overpriced.
Avalon is fine. You're just mad, and want to hate a 'Yota.
Camry's redsign, lower demand for large cars, and higher gas prices overall slow demand for the Avalon. There is nothing wrong with the best full-size in America. :shades:
average compared to what? The CR-v, escape, Vue and Sante Fe have better looking interiors. The Rav4s interior belongs in a $16k Scion, not a truck that can run $32k loaded. Toyota's lower end products have cheap interiors. Scion, FJ cruiser, Yaris (terrible), etc.
With so many problems, why would anyone get a Toyota?
The RAV4 interior isn't that bad. C'mon, it's supposed to be an economical compact SUV.
Sure, price can break $30k, if you get a 3rd row and all that. Most cost $21-28k though, even most V6s.
Let's look...checking fitzmall.com, they have 53 RAV4s. 52 of them cost less than $28,300. Just 1 costs more than that. Heck, it's probably a TYPO!
I don't think the Vue you mentioned is any better. Well, maybe the latest update is better, but prior to that it was actually worse. And the seats are still lousy in the Vue and the Equinox, deal killers IMO.
"Naah, I'm just curious. Most of the hardcore domestic loyalists in here buy the big, expensive sedans. "
where did you get that info from? you surveyed the domestic loyalists? I dont fall in that category anyway since I would rather not own a Chrysler or Ford for the most part. I would take a Mazda over a Ford or chrysler. I also dont mind the new altima or the 2006 or newer accord after they fixed that terrible rear end. Tl is nice as well. European cars are so expensive that I dont even need to rate them, they better be nice considering their cost.
My first car was a used legacy. Not very refined but didnt give me any major problems when I owned it. Of course the brake work and timing belt cost me a fortune. Not to mention it had a bad air leak that was noticable at highway speeds that I could never fix. Oh and the buttons on the drivers side detached from the armest, but a mechanic managed to find a way to screw the parts back together.
"I don't think the Vue you mentioned is any better. Well, maybe the latest update is better, but prior to that it was actually worse. And the seats are still lousy in the Vue and the Equinox, deal killers IMO. "
I am talking about the 2008 Vue. I am surprised you have sat in one already since its just going on sale as we speak.
"I've NEVER, EVER, not once (honestly) heard of a bad experience with a Honda or Toyota (in real life/in person). "
you need to talk to more people. I have a handful of stories and I dont even ask for them. My old neighbors had an '87 cressida and they replaced it the same year my parents replaced their '86 chevy- 1998. Their car was having problems (and the interior was in terrible shape) as was my parents car (I know imports dont have problems after 12 years but I think that is a reasonable lifespan for a vehicle). They went with the Avalon and it was in the shop within months.
>However, back then they did use some cheaper plastics, but at least they fit together well and the
I just sat in a red with white interior Camry (07) belonging to an acquaintance. It was cheap plastic. The dash looked like pieces weren't fitted well an were not aligned carefully. The leather on the seat was worse than plastics on seats. It was stiff and had no personality in appearance; it didn't feel good when touching it.
>car ran forever without any debillatating problems.
My 1998 leSabre has had no debilitating problems. I've heard Camrys are so good and nothing ever breaks or wears out that they actually send parts back to the factory to be used on new cars.
Your posts are off-the-wall as far as real world knowledge. Good luck with those new Camrys.
"Others have noted that several vehicles from foreign nameplates are superior in handling, refinement, ergonomics and fit-and-finish. These views are usually brushed off with: "I don't see it"; or "That's not what I think"; or "(Insert name of offending publication here) is 1. biased, 2. ignorant, 3. or on the payroll of company making the praised foreign product."
Since you arent talking about me I dont see your point. I can easily spot great fit and finish on imports. My point is I can spot that on most cars today, its not exclusive to Japanese cars. Check out some domestics for yourself if you dont believe. I hope the FJ Cruiser isnt representative of the great quality you are talking about though.
"The Explorer was considered a MAJOR hit for Ford by virtually every publication at that time, and reviewers noted that it took years for other companies - ESPECIALLY Honda - to field a worthy competitor. "
I dont recall there being much talk about Hondas failure to field a competitor. Even when it was acknowledged that Detroit made better trucks there was no hoopla- instead it was like "all they care about are these stupid trucks, why dont they make better cars". That was until competitive import trucks came out then it became "Nissan/Toyota, etc. are finally prepared to assault Detroits last stronghold and the bIg 3 better watch out". My point was no one ever suggusted that the failure of the Japanese to field competitive trucks for so long was due to inferior engineering, Detroit's superior planning or execution or anything else. Even when the imports put out less than stellar efforts the press usually goes crazy with praise- the Ridgeline comes to mind. Real truck buyers dont want it but the press has been loving it since Day 1.
BTW, the Passat is just one example- there are others. The Sonata and Fusion are two highly rated cars with good reliability scores so far but their sales are stuck and a fraction of Camry/Accord sales. The reason? Lack of name recognition and smaller ad budgets. People dont think "fusion" or "sonata" when they think of a default midsize car so all the good reviews (and great pricing) in the world cant overcome the fact that most midsize buyers arent even going to consider competitors to Camry and Accord. My simple point is that sales numbers and marketshare do NOT tell the whole story about competence of product. THink about it, GM leads in marketshare but you people are arguing that GM makes below average products. That right there proves my VERY point.
"And how many cars and truck models does GM offer compared to Toyota (and Lexus and Scion)? "
Doesnt matter- GM and Toyota are the two umbrella car companies. That was a weak cop out response if I ever heard one. Saturn/Chevy/Pontiac/GMC are all competing in Toyota's price range- they might as well be considered one entity for the purpose of comparing sales. Toyota AND Scion are barely outselling Chevy this year. You and I both know Toyota will never have as many brands as GM but it doesnt matter since you compare corporate sales anyway. If GM entered the market in 1957 like Toyota it wouldnt have 7 brands now, but it didnt so they are stuck.
"But GM still depends too heavily on sales to rental car companies for many key models."
do you have any idea what % of Euro brands go to fleets? I dont, but for all I know MB might get 15% or 20% of its Euro sales from fleets. If that is the case am I to presume MB is in trouble and its products have no retail appeal? You tell me. The home team always gets most of the fleets sales. I would imagin in Japan most fleet sales come from the Japanese automakers. Dont think you'll see Impala police cars over there and yet Toyota and HOnda somehow manage to stay in business and make money.
There is nothing wrong with the best full-size in America.
I would say from your criteria on what is best, the Impala is far and away the best full sized car in America. I believe Impala outsells the Avalon by 5 to 1? Even the full size Sonata outsells the Avalon. I will say the last generation of Avalon was a pretty nice looking car. Toyota should not have hired all the out of work designers that have trashed the lineup for you.
I think my point is made when you had to go back to an '87 model import to find a real world real life problem with an import car!!!
I talk to plenty of people, and I've heard:
Bad things about Land Rover. Perfection about Toyota. Almost near perfection from Honda. Bad things about Ford. Bad things about Chrysler products. Good things about Audi. Good and bad things about VW. I've heard good things about GM & Ford trucks. I've also heard great things about Toyota PU trucks. I've seen really old small Toyota pickup trucks back in the day last forever.
I've seen first and second hand how VW, Audi, Honda, Toyota, and Dodge's run. My parents in law bought an O6 Silverado, time will tell for Chevy. The Tahoe they used to have was competent/OK but gas guzzler. The Mazda 626 they had is still running strong, though it has required some repairs. My brother in law bought an 06 Altima, he should have waited for the new model or bought my '03 Accord from me. It would have been cheaper, faster, and gotten almost as good fuel economy (he got the 4banger). My sister in law got the '06 Civic LX sedan and as far as I know (and I asked) she's had no issues, other than the accident she got into where she crashed it.
And its not all about repair quantities and costs. At 65K miles my Honda drove just like when it was brand new, whereas other cars I've been in at 65K seemed like they were past their prime.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
No, it wasn't the brakes at all, it was her being a new unexperienced driver and not learing how to drive until she was in her mid-20's!!! Plus, I'm not the one who taught her how to drive.
I've taught two people how to drive thus far, and they both got 90+ on their driving tests, and got in no accidents that I know of (one of the two I knew in college but haven't talked to him since 2002).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
That means the Impala is a much better car. That conclusion is reached using fill's logic in the now closed Hyundai vs Toyota discussion: sell more means better car. Period.
"You are too kind, the current Avalon is butt ugly. It has sales to prove it."
The Avalon is not thay ugly I think it looks better than last generation Avalon but not as good as the 98-99 Avalon bodystyle.
"It is down 18% from last year. I imagine it is time to just drop it. They could probably unload them on the rental market if they were not so overpriced."
So, the Chrysler 300 which is a competitor to the Avalon is not exactly like a ball of fire now like it did a couple years ago when it first came out.
The domestics have their A team and B team products, and all the B team products go to the rental fleets so that isn't a good way to judge them. Or that their lowline stuff sucks but their highline stuff is wonderful.
A good company has to stand behind its emblem and name, and would never do something like that.
The Civic and Corolla are bulletproof, the Accord and Camry are bullet proof, and every other model in the lineup is always extremely reliable.
Only exception is the bottom of the Toyota barrel, which is usually high average reliability, instead of excellent. The Tercel and Echo come to mind.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"where did you get that info from? you surveyed the domestic loyalists? I dont fall in that category anyway since I would rather not own a Chrysler or Ford for the most part. I would take a Mazda over a Ford or chrysler."
I don;t understand 1487 your telling us how the Domestics deserve a chance but yet you would buy a Mazda over a Ford or a Chrysler. Can you go into detail on why your saying we should give the Domestics a chance but yet you would buy a Mazda over a Ford or Chrysler?
BTW, I understand why you would not a buy a Chrysler: sitting in a Caliber or a Sebring explains enough on why I wouldn;t buy a Chrysler myself.
Hard to argue with those statistics. I had no idea HONTOY had come that far since 1994 when I got a total POC Toyota PU truck.
My daughter bought a new Civic, then a CR-V and now has a Saturn. She likes everything about the Saturn, especially the dealer. The reason she switched on this last car, the Honda dealer STINKS.
"I think Mazda is mostly domestic. The 1990 Mazda 626 we have was built in the USA."
Uh no Mazda is not mostly domestic but the 626 was built in Flat Rock, Michigan in the 90's/early 00's as is the Mazda 6 currently. The last gen Tribute was built in the USA i think as well because it had to be built along with the its near Ford twin(the Escape.)The MX-5, Miata, 3, and Rx-8 are built in Japan. I think the CX-7, CX-9, and Mazda 5 are built in Japan as well. I have to say Mazda can/could put out some nice styled cars out when they put their mind to it.
Sony TVs last longer? Not sure about that. I have known people with problemed Sony TVs. Where are the stats on product defects for TVs? At one time, that cheapie Sanyo was doing well stats wise for less repairs needed. Never heard of Sony being trouble free, though they say the picture is excellent. Loren
I really don't understand how you can cite the Outlook as an example of CR's alleged bias.
CR writes an article titled "Saturn Rising" that calls the Outlook "the best American SUV we've tested" and rates it both 3rd of 18 in the highly competitive mid-sized SUV segment and 2nd of 10 in the large SUV segment. That doesn't look like anti-domestic or anti-GM bias to me. It rated the Outlook 1 point higher than the V6 Highlander, 10 points higher than the 4Runner, and a full 14 points higher than the Sequoia. That doesn't look like pro-Toyota bias to me.
I'm satisfied that CR applies its standards fairly. I can respect it if you disagree with its standards, but I really wonder if this alleged anti-domestic bias on CR's part is really an artifact of a pro-domestic bias on your part. It will become clear which is the case if you start labeling me as an anti-domestic import lover.
where did you get that info from? you surveyed the domestic loyalists?
Pretty much. IIRC, Lemko has a FWD STS, an late-80s Park Avenue, and an '89 Brougham; imidazol97 has a few late-model Park Avenues, Rocky had an STS until a deer took it out; I forget what 62vette has but I think it's a big sedan; and nvbanker used to buy Town Cars until Ford debased them too badly.
Sure, some owners don't look at what was done. They are too busy and don't care. So I wouldn't expect them to do a survey on their car either. I wouldn't expect them to say they never had to fix anything. CR tells me every car I've ever owned is a bad one. They had only negative remarks about my Riviera. The math they did was wrong. The car scored red dots everywhere but was rated a black circle overall. How could that be? They rated the mileage near 20 and I usually get over 28. They tested a new one, not one with 161k mi. Could they not find 'D'.
I am implying that if people only buy CR rated above average cars, the american auto industry will finish shrinking to half it's late 90's size soon. Then It will continue shrinking until there are only a small fraction of the good jobs that there once were in the industry. We are saying that the high school kid who runs a 4:21 mile at the state meet and comes in 17th sucks. I don't agree.
We split hairs to get a car that will have one less problem in 10 years. We call that the difference between average and above average.
Well it usually is more than just a question of 1 or 2 more problems here and there. It is the overall build and feel of a car. And people should do their own test runs, in a used version first, if possible, then the new car. Interesting how some feel lose in a year or two. And a used car you can put your foot into more to see how it scoots. Then the new car test to be sure you like the latest version. I found CR problem areas noted to be fairly accurate when compared to the problems I experienced, so I am fairly impressed. And yes, I too can not figure out the bottom scores some times when the car looked to be average or better and finished out low. I just look at the individual items. And I do not look up the test reviews of CR book, though I did read one on my Stealth and it was accurate.
The Riviera was so many style themes over the years. I am sort of a sucker for the smaller one of 1993, and was thinking it may be a collector car some day. Or maybe not. Do believe they had used the Corvette fiberglass leaf spring, which is interesting. I just like the swoops and overall look to the little Riv. I imagine they all have the electronic dash, so they may start as only a few thousand to buy in mint condition, but oh my if the electronics fail. Maybe I overestimate the cost of repair. Loren
They are not going to drop a 6 sp. in the i4 engine cars? As for the hybrids, the Aura doesn't really get enough of a boost in gas mileage to warrant going hybrid, IMHO. Best bet in both cars is the 3.6 V6, with the 6 sp. is quite the rocket. Why a $30K Cadillac CTS has the 2.8 is any wonder. Well the second wonder is having a stock stick and charging for the automatic transmission in a Cadillac. I have yet to see a stick CTS. Anyone here ever seen one, or better yet tried one to see how the shifting / clutch action feels? Loren
Yeah, the knee seems to rest more on the center console and the feel is a little more narrow, as well as, being a little more narrow. Could be the tall door window sills lending that feel. As for seating, I figure they all are pretty much four passenger cars, though in a pinch they seat more, or a small child or a dog may fit in the center back seat. Not too many happy passengers with three across. Those days are pretty much gone, unless you drive say a Towncar.
I recall, many years ago, a trip to LA for business in an older company car Impala and three across worked. Once replaced by a newer one which I guess was an 80's model, the back seat was more cramped. It takes a lot of width to seat three adults. Some cars, now-a-days seem wide, but the inside, with thicker doors perhaps, seems smaller. Or maybe I just put on more weight? :confuse: Loren
Why a $30K Cadillac CTS has the 2.8 is any wonder.
Loren, that's changing for 2008. I was at a Caddy dealer a couple weeks ago, and the 3.6 is going to be standard. Not sure if it is the 252 hp version or the DI 304 hp. I know the DI eng. will be offered, but as an option (???).
Not needing a 4-cyl IS an advantage for the Aura. Plus with their V6 and better looking interiors they have a transmission/engine combination that works.
As for you salesman mantra that they sell more--Enron stock sold a lot. It was "wonderful" for investments. They sold the most. Can you make the connection?
There are other sayings that fit those that do not diligently research before the buy.
"A Sheep led to Slaughter" and "A Fool and His Money are soon Parted".
My daughter switched from Honda to Saturn and is quite happy. Her biggest complaint with Honda was our local dealer. Saturn has the best dealer she has ever dealt with. I think she has the L300 which she says is a great car.
Awareness comes to mind gagrice. Awareness that there are other possibilities. I've seen too much of this brand loyalty in my years. I am now in Nissan's camp after a one horse run with Toy. I'll say no more.
All the top names produce very good products. All have excellent pictures. Their repair rates are all similar. As are autos. You pay your money, you take your chances.
Actually the last TV I bought was in 1991. It is a Panasonic 20". The remote is getting kind of ragged. Still has a good picture. I left it in my room in Prudhoe Bay for the next employee when I retired. I did own a Sony that went out after about five years and I bought the Panasonic as a replacement. I rarely watch TV now. If I was to buy one it would be the Pioneer Plasma. Best picture in a flat screen I have seen.
An advantage for who? Certainly not the Saturn salesman who is trying to appease customers looking for what they believe is the inherently fuel-conscious 4-cylinder option.
This is definitely a sad time for GM not only that it lost the number 1 world auto manufacture spot to Toyota and apparently its own GM Is on The Offensive. Will it work? discussion board here has been dominated by Toyota comments... :sick:
Don't remember GM has been mentioned anywhere in the Toyota Is on The Offensive. Will it work? board. :P
Well in Aura has the Hybrid, which so they must not be totally sold on the 3.5 V6 as fitting all needs. It adds to cost and complexity with little gain in MPG. Not too impressive. As for transmissions and engine working, well yes they do. They had an opportunity to impress with the 3.6 as the base engine, and chose to skimp. They have a 6 sp. transmission which could compete with competition and held off on that one too, unless you buy the XR model. Bad choices in marketing yield bad results. They are trying to market the car as the new Saturn, like never before, as a 21st Century car, but put the old stuff inside as the base model.
Saturns new ads at launch time were something like, Saturn like always - Like never before. I believe that, oh how I believe that. They are talking about GM -Saturn glorious past, in that people liked the Saturn plastic cars and dealerships, which is a good thing, no doubt. But letting the whole line just sit and twist in the wind for years with not such good product and support also comes to mind. The like never before comes to mind as a catch phrase of the origins of Saturn, which like no other car, yet soon became a like always as well. Sort of like all the cars over the years, like poor ol' Buick limping along for years, like always and like never before. It may be a new game, same rules as before, and same results. Expectations, titillations, then only hope.
Lead, follow or get out of the way, comes to mind yet once again. Loren
Comments
For the price, the RAV4 should have a nicer interior, and I don't mind an engine that is capable of causing problems related to "too much" power.
I love this line of argument. Why is it that import apologizers cannot accept that the quality and competence of a product is only ONE part of what drives sales? To me this is a simple concept but to import people it seems unfathomable. For example, the common argument made by import people is: "domestics have to be crap because they are losing sales" or maybe "the camry has to be the best car on the market, just look at its sales!". Throughout the 90s the Explorer was the best selling SUV and/or family vehicle in the US. I NEVER heard anyone suggest that this proved Ford knew consumers better than Toyota or Honda and thusly the Explorer sold over 400k units a year. Likewise I have never hear an import lover suggest that the F150 is superior to the Tundra (old or new) and then use the sales numbers as proof. Last month the Ford sold about 3 times as many F150s as Toyota did Tundras. this was with Ford having a decline and Toyota having a 140% increase or something. Do those numbers mean the F150 is 3 times better than the Tundra? of course not. Image, name recognition, dealer strength, journalists ratings, advertising, etc. all make a difference. Just look at the Passat for example, most reviewers feel its one of the better family sedans on the market today but due to VWs image, lack of ad dollars, dealership network, etc. the Passat is an also ran in terms of sales. Just like many car buyers are only going to check out Toyota and HOnda dealers when shopping for a car many truck shoppers arent going to a Toyota dealer to look for a pickup even though the Tundra is a strong product.
In spite of all the gloom and doom over GM's falling share and the often repeated mantra that no one wants GM products they still sell more cars and trucks than Toyota in the US. and yes I know fleet sales are part of it, fleet sales are part of the business. In Europe they use MBs as taxis and Audis as police cars and yet I dont hear GM bashers saying "if the A6 is so good, why does Audi need to push them onto government agencies". If GM goes out of business, you can bet that Toyota will be providing police cars, taxis and rental cars for Americans. In fact, if Toyotas were cheaper they probably would have a larger share of fleet business now. I am already seeing more and more Tacoma corporate fleet trucks on the road.
average compared to what? The CR-v, escape, Vue and Sante Fe have better looking interiors. The Rav4s interior belongs in a $16k Scion, not a truck that can run $32k loaded. Toyota's lower end products have cheap interiors. Scion, FJ cruiser, Yaris (terrible), etc.
It isn't the "import lovers" who have problems looking beyond quality and competence. Others have noted that several vehicles from foreign nameplates are superior in handling, refinement, ergonomics and fit-and-finish. These views are usually brushed off with: "I don't see it"; or "That's not what I think"; or "(Insert name of offending publication here) is 1. biased, 2. ignorant, 3. or on the payroll of company making the praised foreign product."
Which, to me is unfathomable...
1487: For example, the common argument made by import people is: "domestics have to be crap because they are losing sales" or maybe "the camry has to be the best car on the market, just look at its sales!".
Who exactly are "import people"? Are we now outsourcing childbirth, too?
1487: Throughout the 90s the Explorer was the best selling SUV and/or family vehicle in the US. I NEVER heard anyone suggest that this proved Ford knew consumers better than Toyota or Honda and thusly the Explorer sold over 400k units a year.
Several reviewers praised the Explorer when it debuted. Toyota had the 4Runner, but, as I recall, it was not considered a major competitor at that time. Honda tried to fill the gap with a rebadged Isuzu Rodeo (the Passport) and wasn't exactly praised for the effort.
The Explorer was considered a MAJOR hit for Ford by virtually every publication at that time, and reviewers noted that it took years for other companies - ESPECIALLY Honda - to field a worthy competitor.
1487: Just look at the Passat for example, most reviewers feel its one of the better family sedans on the market today but due to VWs image, lack of ad dollars, dealership network, etc. the Passat is an also ran in terms of sales.
Well, yes, because it carries the stigma of that legendary (as in, legendarily bad) VW reliability. Plus, VW's dealer network has a terrible reputation for providing quality service. That is the big reason it is an also-ran. It appeals to a core of people who are willing to risk VW's quality woes to get a German driving experience and a very high level of build quality.
1487: In spite of all the gloom and doom over GM's falling share and the often repeated mantra that no one wants GM products they still sell more cars and trucks than Toyota in the US.
And how many cars and truck models does GM offer compared to Toyota (and Lexus and Scion)?
1487: and yes I know fleet sales are part of it, fleet sales are part of the business. In Europe they use MBs as taxis and Audis as police cars and yet I dont hear GM bashers saying "if the A6 is so good, why does Audi need to push them onto government agencies". If GM goes out of business, you can bet that Toyota will be providing police cars, taxis and rental cars for Americans. In fact, if Toyotas were cheaper they probably would have a larger share of fleet business now. I am already seeing more and more Tacoma corporate fleet trucks on the road.
And we've noted that there is a difference between corporate, government and rental car company sales, and that the Impala is popular with many police departments.
But GM still depends too heavily on sales to rental car companies for many key models. If only about 7.7 percent of total Impala or Malibu sales went to rental car companies, no one would complain. But when the fleet sale totals are over 50 percent of all sales, as they are for many GM models (including the Impala and Malibu), and most of those fleet sales are to rental car companies, then there is a problem.
Avalon is fine. You're just mad, and want to hate a 'Yota.
Camry's redsign, lower demand for large cars, and higher gas prices overall slow demand for the Avalon. There is nothing wrong with the best full-size in America. :shades:
DrFill
With so many problems, why would anyone get a Toyota?
DrFill
Sure, price can break $30k, if you get a 3rd row and all that. Most cost $21-28k though, even most V6s.
Let's look...checking fitzmall.com, they have 53 RAV4s. 52 of them cost less than $28,300. Just 1 costs more than that. Heck, it's probably a TYPO!
I don't think the Vue you mentioned is any better. Well, maybe the latest update is better, but prior to that it was actually worse. And the seats are still lousy in the Vue and the Equinox, deal killers IMO.
where did you get that info from? you surveyed the domestic loyalists? I dont fall in that category anyway since I would rather not own a Chrysler or Ford for the most part. I would take a Mazda over a Ford or chrysler. I also dont mind the new altima or the 2006 or newer accord after they fixed that terrible rear end. Tl is nice as well. European cars are so expensive that I dont even need to rate them, they better be nice considering their cost.
My first car was a used legacy. Not very refined but didnt give me any major problems when I owned it. Of course the brake work and timing belt cost me a fortune. Not to mention it had a bad air leak that was noticable at highway speeds that I could never fix. Oh and the buttons on the drivers side detached from the armest, but a mechanic managed to find a way to screw the parts back together.
I am talking about the 2008 Vue. I am surprised you have sat in one already since its just going on sale as we speak.
you need to talk to more people. I have a handful of stories and I dont even ask for them. My old neighbors had an '87 cressida and they replaced it the same year my parents replaced their '86 chevy- 1998. Their car was having problems (and the interior was in terrible shape) as was my parents car (I know imports dont have problems after 12 years but I think that is a reasonable lifespan for a vehicle). They went with the Avalon and it was in the shop within months.
I just sat in a red with white interior Camry (07) belonging to an acquaintance. It was cheap plastic. The dash looked like pieces weren't fitted well an were not aligned carefully. The leather on the seat was worse than plastics on seats. It was stiff and had no personality in appearance; it didn't feel good when touching it.
>car ran forever without any debillatating problems.
My 1998 leSabre has had no debilitating problems. I've heard Camrys are so good and nothing ever breaks or wears out that they actually send parts back to the factory to be used on new cars.
Your posts are off-the-wall as far as real world knowledge. Good luck with those new Camrys.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Since you arent talking about me I dont see your point. I can easily spot great fit and finish on imports. My point is I can spot that on most cars today, its not exclusive to Japanese cars. Check out some domestics for yourself if you dont believe. I hope the FJ Cruiser isnt representative of the great quality you are talking about though.
"The Explorer was considered a MAJOR hit for Ford by virtually every publication at that time, and reviewers noted that it took years for other companies - ESPECIALLY Honda - to field a worthy competitor. "
I dont recall there being much talk about Hondas failure to field a competitor. Even when it was acknowledged that Detroit made better trucks there was no hoopla- instead it was like "all they care about are these stupid trucks, why dont they make better cars". That was until competitive import trucks came out then it became "Nissan/Toyota, etc. are finally prepared to assault Detroits last stronghold and the bIg 3 better watch out". My point was no one ever suggusted that the failure of the Japanese to field competitive trucks for so long was due to inferior engineering, Detroit's superior planning or execution or anything else. Even when the imports put out less than stellar efforts the press usually goes crazy with praise- the Ridgeline comes to mind. Real truck buyers dont want it but the press has been loving it since Day 1.
BTW, the Passat is just one example- there are others. The Sonata and Fusion are two highly rated cars with good reliability scores so far but their sales are stuck and a fraction of Camry/Accord sales. The reason? Lack of name recognition and smaller ad budgets. People dont think "fusion" or "sonata" when they think of a default midsize car so all the good reviews (and great pricing) in the world cant overcome the fact that most midsize buyers arent even going to consider competitors to Camry and Accord. My simple point is that sales numbers and marketshare do NOT tell the whole story about competence of product. THink about it, GM leads in marketshare but you people are arguing that GM makes below average products. That right there proves my VERY point.
"And how many cars and truck models does GM offer compared to Toyota (and Lexus and Scion)? "
Doesnt matter- GM and Toyota are the two umbrella car companies. That was a weak cop out response if I ever heard one. Saturn/Chevy/Pontiac/GMC are all competing in Toyota's price range- they might as well be considered one entity for the purpose of comparing sales. Toyota AND Scion are barely outselling Chevy this year. You and I both know Toyota will never have as many brands as GM but it doesnt matter since you compare corporate sales anyway. If GM entered the market in 1957 like Toyota it wouldnt have 7 brands now, but it didnt so they are stuck.
"But GM still depends too heavily on sales to rental car companies for many key models."
do you have any idea what % of Euro brands go to fleets? I dont, but for all I know MB might get 15% or 20% of its Euro sales from fleets. If that is the case am I to presume MB is in trouble and its products have no retail appeal? You tell me. The home team always gets most of the fleets sales. I would imagin in Japan most fleet sales come from the Japanese automakers. Dont think you'll see Impala police cars over there and yet Toyota and HOnda somehow manage to stay in business and make money.
I would say from your criteria on what is best, the Impala is far and away the best full sized car in America. I believe Impala outsells the Avalon by 5 to 1? Even the full size Sonata outsells the Avalon. I will say the last generation of Avalon was a pretty nice looking car. Toyota should not have hired all the out of work designers that have trashed the lineup for you.
I talk to plenty of people, and I've heard:
Bad things about Land Rover.
Perfection about Toyota.
Almost near perfection from Honda.
Bad things about Ford.
Bad things about Chrysler products.
Good things about Audi.
Good and bad things about VW.
I've heard good things about GM & Ford trucks.
I've also heard great things about Toyota PU trucks.
I've seen really old small Toyota pickup trucks back in the day last forever.
I've seen first and second hand how VW, Audi, Honda, Toyota, and Dodge's run. My parents in law bought an O6 Silverado, time will tell for Chevy. The Tahoe they used to have was competent/OK but gas guzzler. The Mazda 626 they had is still running strong, though it has required some repairs. My brother in law bought an 06 Altima, he should have waited for the new model or bought my '03 Accord from me. It would have been cheaper, faster, and gotten almost as good fuel economy (he got the 4banger).
My sister in law got the '06 Civic LX sedan and as far as I know (and I asked) she's had no issues, other than the accident she got into where she crashed it.
And its not all about repair quantities and costs. At 65K miles my Honda drove just like when it was brand new, whereas other cars I've been in at 65K seemed like they were past their prime.
What I meant was according to Edmunds and MT, the Avalon is the leader.
I thought Azera was Hyundai's Avalon-fighter?
With Sonata over 25% fleet, Avalon is still pretty close.
Avalon is for "Ballers Only"! Easily the most expensive on the market.
DrFill
I've taught two people how to drive thus far, and they both got 90+ on their driving tests, and got in no accidents that I know of (one of the two I knew in college but haven't talked to him since 2002).
TMV on the 8 cylinder SS is $25,294 with customer cash (link).
You're right, you're going to have to option one up to hit $30k.
Exactly. You're finally getting with the program.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That means the Impala is a much better car. That conclusion is reached using fill's logic in the now closed Hyundai vs Toyota discussion: sell more means better car. Period.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Avalon is not thay ugly I think it looks better than last generation Avalon but not as good as the 98-99 Avalon bodystyle.
"It is down 18% from last year. I imagine it is time to just drop it. They could probably unload them on the rental market if they were not so overpriced."
So, the Chrysler 300 which is a competitor to the Avalon is not exactly like a ball of fire now like it did a couple years ago when it first came out.
A good company has to stand behind its emblem and name, and would never do something like that.
The Civic and Corolla are bulletproof, the Accord and Camry are bullet proof, and every other model in the lineup is always extremely reliable.
Only exception is the bottom of the Toyota barrel, which is usually high average reliability, instead of excellent. The Tercel and Echo come to mind.
I don;t understand 1487 your telling us how the Domestics deserve a chance but yet you would buy a Mazda over a Ford or a Chrysler. Can you go into detail on why your saying we should give the Domestics a chance but yet you would buy a Mazda over a Ford or Chrysler?
BTW, I understand why you would not a buy a Chrysler: sitting in a Caliber or a Sebring explains enough on why I wouldn;t buy a Chrysler myself.
My daughter bought a new Civic, then a CR-V and now has a Saturn. She likes everything about the Saturn, especially the dealer. The reason she switched on this last car, the Honda dealer STINKS.
Uh no Mazda is not mostly domestic but the 626 was built in Flat Rock, Michigan in the 90's/early 00's as is the Mazda 6 currently. The last gen Tribute was built in the USA i think as well because it had to be built along with the its near Ford twin(the Escape.)The MX-5, Miata, 3, and Rx-8 are built in Japan. I think the CX-7, CX-9, and Mazda 5 are built in Japan as well. I have to say Mazda can/could put out some nice styled cars out when they put their mind to it.
Loren
CR writes an article titled "Saturn Rising" that calls the Outlook "the best American SUV we've tested" and rates it both 3rd of 18 in the highly competitive mid-sized SUV segment and 2nd of 10 in the large SUV segment. That doesn't look like anti-domestic or anti-GM bias to me. It rated the Outlook 1 point higher than the V6 Highlander, 10 points higher than the 4Runner, and a full 14 points higher than the Sequoia. That doesn't look like pro-Toyota bias to me.
I'm satisfied that CR applies its standards fairly. I can respect it if you disagree with its standards, but I really wonder if this alleged anti-domestic bias on CR's part is really an artifact of a pro-domestic bias on your part. It will become clear which is the case if you start labeling me as an anti-domestic import lover.
Pretty much. IIRC, Lemko has a FWD STS, an late-80s Park Avenue, and an '89 Brougham; imidazol97 has a few late-model Park Avenues, Rocky had an STS until a deer took it out; I forget what 62vette has but I think it's a big sedan; and nvbanker used to buy Town Cars until Ford debased them too badly.
I am implying that if people only buy CR rated above average cars, the american auto industry will finish shrinking to half it's late 90's size soon. Then It will continue shrinking until there are only a small fraction of the good jobs that there once were in the industry. We are saying that the high school kid who runs a 4:21 mile at the state meet and comes in 17th sucks. I don't agree.
We split hairs to get a car that will have one less problem in 10 years. We call that the difference between average and above average.
The Riviera was so many style themes over the years. I am sort of a sucker for the smaller one of 1993, and was thinking it may be a collector car some day. Or maybe not. Do believe they had used the Corvette fiberglass leaf spring, which is interesting. I just like the swoops and overall look to the little Riv. I imagine they all have the electronic dash, so they may start as only a few thousand to buy in mint condition, but oh my if the electronics fail. Maybe I overestimate the cost of repair.
Loren
Can't speak for the 5, but you are correct, the CX-7 and 9 are built in Japan.
It is based off the 2.4 Ecotec, with a 4-speed auto, and it gets 24/32, about 2 MPG better than the standard Ecotec.
Why would I buy a hybrid to get 2 MPG? I didn't know the 2008 Malibu was full-size pick-up. :confuse:
DrFill
Loren
- It's really a 4 passenger car. It seems less wide inside with the Camcord/Altima. Fitting 5 would be really pushig it
- Lack a I4 models on the lot. Everything in was a V6
I recall, many years ago, a trip to LA for business in an older company car Impala and three across worked. Once replaced by a newer one which I guess was an 80's model, the back seat was more cramped. It takes a lot of width to seat three adults. Some cars, now-a-days seem wide, but the inside, with thicker doors perhaps, seems smaller. Or maybe I just put on more weight? :confuse:
Loren
GM sees it as a competitive advantage, but the family sedan market wants a torquey 4-cylinder. 4 out of 5 Camrys sold are 4-cylinder.
Another missed opportunity by GM. Gotta learn from success. Toyota sells 10 Camrys for every Aura sold.
If you don't know what you don't know, ask somebody who knows! :confuse:
DrFill
Loren, that's changing for 2008. I was at a Caddy dealer a couple weeks ago, and the 3.6 is going to be standard. Not sure if it is the 252 hp version or the DI 304 hp. I know the DI eng. will be offered, but as an option (???).
As for you salesman mantra that they sell more--Enron stock sold a lot. It was "wonderful" for investments. They sold the most. Can you make the connection?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"A Sheep led to Slaughter" and "A Fool and His Money are soon Parted".
My daughter switched from Honda to Saturn and is quite happy. Her biggest complaint with Honda was our local dealer. Saturn has the best dealer she has ever dealt with. I think she has the L300 which she says is a great car.
Blind faith runs rampant.
I am now in Nissan's camp after a one horse run with Toy.
I'll say no more.
As are autos. You pay your money, you take your chances.
An advantage for who? Certainly not the Saturn salesman who is trying to appease customers looking for what they believe is the inherently fuel-conscious 4-cylinder option.
I hope your next post will be better. :lemon:
DrFill
Don't remember GM has been mentioned anywhere in the Toyota Is on The Offensive. Will it work? board. :P
Saturns new ads at launch time were something like, Saturn like always - Like never before. I believe that, oh how I believe that. They are talking about GM -Saturn glorious past, in that people liked the Saturn plastic cars and dealerships, which is a good thing, no doubt. But letting the whole line just sit and twist in the wind for years with not such good product and support also comes to mind. The like never before comes to mind as a catch phrase of the origins of Saturn, which like no other car, yet soon became a like always as well. Sort of like all the cars over the years, like poor ol' Buick limping along for years, like always and like never before. It may be a new game, same rules as before, and same results. Expectations, titillations, then only hope.
Lead, follow or get out of the way, comes to mind yet once again.
Loren