i have always had good luck with any new ford or GM i have bought...they cost less and their reliability is improving...corvette is a great competitor to a porsche for a lot less money...i think GM is no pushover and they make some very good cars and trucks
All those Impalas, G6, Sonatas, and Sebrings, not to mention the in-Fusion of others.
Ah, but this is but another fleeting moment in time for GM.
Of the rentals mentioned, the Sebring comes to mind as the dog of the bunch, but as always this is only my humble opinion (OK add the press). The Sonata is not a bad car, yet it is still not 100% enough to take on the best of the best and dealerships may be a weak spot too -- just a thought. Overall, I would take the Sonata over the Sebring. Now looks wise the Dodge version is dialed in better, yet still nothing I would consider. You may disagree, which is fine. The aging Impala is a better looking car than those newer efforts by Chrysler, IMHO. Loren
If GM offer's a free loaner car service for the 5 years 100K, then I didn't know that, and they need to advertise that more so people like me know about it. GM's bumper to bumper warranty is not "better" than the imports. They need to do so! The powertrain warranty is only half the battle.
Honda and Toyota don't need to offer these things such as free loaner car rentals because prior experience tells previous buyers/owners they won't need a warranty at all, ever, period. As far as I know Honda/Audi do offer free roadside assistance for the standard warranty term. Unless something's changes since 2003 for Honda.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I NEVER said the camry is increasing fleet sales, I said Toyota and Nissan as a WHOLE are increasing fleet sales, or at least represent more of that market than they used to. The camry was new last year so I wouldnt assume its fleet sales would be higher than 2005.
"As for GM reporting lower sales because of decreased fleet sales - only about 15 percent of June's decline could be explained by reduced fleet sales. The rest is because of lower retail sales. "
No one ever said otherwise. Last month wasnt a good one for GM by any measure. If you are trying to "prove" that people werent flocking to GM dealers last month you dont need to. Gm had good sales in May but June went south- didnt see anyone using the May results to predict GM's future though.
"The Aura's STICKER price may be competitive, but it is not competitive with a discounted Camry or Accord, which have not sold for MSRP for years. "
The Aura has a $1750 rebate if you get your own financing, its very competitive with the camry and accord on price. The car isnt selling because people dont know what it is and because a large % of import owners arent going to drive anything from Detroit regardless of merit. Some vehicles can avoid this fate, the CTS is an example, but the Aura is not getting any attention due to its newness.
The Lacrosse has been around since 2004 with no major changes. It replaced two cars that were heavily fleet. Now GM has cut back on fleet sales and the Lacrosse is suffering big time. Its hardly new or even the best midsize car in GM's fleet. As for those who say quality is why GM products dont sell- the lacrosse has decent CR scores in reliability but its not selling. Then again, it still sells about the same as the Passat so maybe its not a failure. its apparent GM wants the Lacrosse to be seen as more than a rental and wants it to have better resale value.
what is your definition of "not selling" when talking about the GM trucks? You need to look at the numbers before acting like GM cant sell any. I think they sold around 60k units in June, that isnt "not selling" in my book. Hey with the great deals on the Tundra and Detroit trucks the GM trucks are up against serious pressure. Who can argue with $3k back on a new Tundra?
"GM's bumper to bumper warranty is not "better" than the imports. They need to do so! The powertrain warranty is only half the battle. "
The powertrain is the most expensive to fix. People are often leary of tranny and engine problems and those are covered. Buick, Saab and Caddy have 4 year warranties. The other GM brands match the bumper to bumper of the imports.
The GM warranty info is available to anyone willing to read up on it online. You get a loaner when your car is in for WARRANTY work not oil changes. I dont believe ToyoHOnda give out loaner cars for service or warranty work.
"Honda and Toyota don't need to offer these things such as free loaner car rentals because prior experience tells previous buyers/owners they won't need a warranty at all, ever, period.'
please stop, you cant be serious. Have you read anything I wrote about people I know with imports? You are insulting our intelligence with such statements. Do you want to talk to my Sister in law about her camry? failed AC, water leaks that damaged the upholstery, failed power locks, etc.
andres3: Honda and Toyota don't need to offer these things such as free loaner car rentals because prior experience tells previous buyers/owners they won't need a warranty at all, ever, period. As far as I know Honda/Audi do offer free roadside assistance for the standard warranty term. Unless something's changes since 2003 for Honda.
I wouldn't go THAT far. No one is going to buy any vehicle without a warranty these days, whether it's a Honda, Toyota, Chevrolet or BMW.
And I don't recall receiving free roadside assistance with my 2003 Accord EX.
the best theory I can come up with for why the Saturn Aura isn't selling are the following:
1. It really isn't as good as the GM lovers are saying, and the 70 rating/score from Consumer Reports is spot on (so it's good, but not THAT good).
2. It's way overpriced; advertise a 2003 Accord LXV6 with 65K miles for $20,000 and "no one will know about it" and nobody will call you. Advertise it for $5,000 and it'll be sold within hours, not days. It's always about cost/price!
3. Saturn's previous customers and buyers were not thrilled with their previous Saturn experiences and don't want to purchase another Saturn or move up the Saturn line. Many Civic buyers move up to the Accord later in life. Why can't Saturn buyers move up to the Aura?
4.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"CR is also an excellent fundamentally unbiased source, which is a no-nonsense publication. "
with all due respect you are so biased that you cant recognize the obvious. CR is completely inconsistent in their reviews and they dont even tell you how they score vehicles. What could be worse than a magazine that comes up with test scores but doesnt tell you were they get them? In the latest issue they say the CX-9 has a refined engine but the Edge has a course, unrefined engine. They have the SAME engine! Please explain. CR says the engines are "Similar" as if to suggest Mazda has a nicer version but they are the same and Ford makes the engine.
Even my '95 Dodge had roadside assistance for 3yr/36K..... I thought my '03 Honda did too, but I could very well be wrong, as I have never had to use that feature!
I know my '06 Audi does, just in case.
Thank goodness for that. I think 2 of my Dodge's 4 tow truck pickups we're paid for by Dodge. The other 2 happened between 3 years and 65K, so I had to shell out for those.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
i work at a big 3 and toyota supplier and i would say the asians are better workers than americans....my wife is a filipino and i see her work ethic and i know my company likes hiring asians because they dont miss time and they are willing to work...that being said, i dont need a perfect car and i would like to keep some of the profits in the USA...as well as some factories..one thing i do like about toyota and honda is that they do assemble cars here, (tundra, accord, corolla, camry, civic in canada, tacoma among others) with north american parts as well...i have honestly had good luck with all the new american cars i have bought...i just think it is important to keep auto factories in canada and the usa as much as possible
Different tuning perhaps? Different transmission with different gears? Different fuel pump? Do you have a scanned article or website link to CR's comments on these two vehicle's engines as you state?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"1. It really isn't as good as the GM lovers are saying, and the 70 rating/score from Consumer Reports is spot on (so it's good, but not THAT good). "
its not about what we are saying. Try reading some reviews of the car. Read autoweek, edmunds, R&T, cars.com, etc. Again, you can make more informed statements if you have some background on the vehicles in question. CR isnt the only game in town. You conveniently ignored the accolades for the Aura I just mentioned. One thing I find with most import fans is that they see no problem with offering extensive commentary on cars they know little about. How can your opinion be informed when you arent familiar with the subject matter.
Point is, "we" are the ones saying the Aura is a nice car. The press has said it over and over and over.
Well discounts are fine, but..... I could have gotten a $1,500 discount on an Aura, but they would have taken away that discount on the other end by having a lower trade-in allowance. The old robbing Peter to pay Paul. If the Aura is worth less money than the current asking, and Saturn is a one price for all, then just lower the price and drop the XE model. I saw the comparison cars of Accord and Camry and both were i4 and basic. Of course what they won't tell people is that a Honda SE model has loads of stuff for less money than the retail sticker on the more base model on the comparisons lot, once discounts are figured in. And the SE v6 Accord is the same price as is the Aura XR. Why are those two not compared? The Camry V6 in that price range is really plain and has the plastic hub caps, But then again, why not include that car in the comparo? Loren
"Different tuning perhaps? Different transmission with different gears? Different fuel pump? Do you have a scanned article or website link to CR's comments on these two vehicle's engines as you state? "
I thought you got the magazine? Listen, I dont make things up or lie (dont need to) to make a point. Find the current issue and read the crossovercomparison yourself if you doubt what I am saying. CR is consistently inconsistent and its obvious to anyone who cares to notice. Most Toyota fans dont notice because they read CR just to verify their cars are still whipping up on domestics in every issue. CR gives like minded people the results they want to see over and over. Its for import owners by import lovers.
The CX-9 and Edge have different 6 speeds but their comments were about the engines- which are the same. Keep in mind the Edge is quieter than the RX350 according to Ford tests so I have a hard time believing the engine is that loud.
BTW, one of GM's crappy vehicles (Outlook) finished first in the comparo. They dont explain why it finished lower than the inferior Pilot but the Pilot is ranked higher. Pilot is smaller, has worse mileage, less power, less features, etc. but it scores higher. I love it.
Okay, so you might need a warranty sometimes/seldomly for a US built Honda, but you certainly shouldn't need a roadside assistance service.
Honda could get rid of their warranties all together, lower the price by 10%, and I'd still buy (as would many people). If they get rid of them all together with no price reduction, then I might have a problem with that as you can't take something away for nothing from me. It's not so much about the peace of mind "just in case you get that one in a million" lemon. It's more about the image it would project from American Honda if they did that move of eliminating their warranties (suspicion they will follow the Chrysler formula of quality for now on due to no warranty). The warranty keeps Honda and Toyota "honest."
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
why do you ask that? So you can tell me I dont know about superior imports and thats why I dont see the light?
My car is american, its a 2002 and its crap! If the people here didnt turn me against imports I might've considered one. Overall people I know with domestics have had reasonable experiences as have people with imports. I have known enough people with imports to know that people forgive what they want to when they believe in a brand or car. The notion that imports never need repairs as someone here suggested is a complete joke. My cousine bought a used Stratus with about 90k miles on it and has had few problems with it in the last two years or so. The interior isnt great and the engine isnt Honda smooth- but the car runs and doesnt break down. I know, its one in a million.... he just got lucky. Thats what I hear everytime a reliable american car is mentioned.
for my replacement car I plan on looking at Aura, Malibu and Accord. The altima's packaging is terrible, to get one I want would cost $30k due to bundling. I HATE that and imports always bundle options.
1487: I NEVER said the camry is increasing fleet sales, I said Toyota and Nissan as a WHOLE are increasing fleet sales, or at least represent more of that market than they used to. The camry was new last year so I wouldnt assume its fleet sales would be higher than 2005.
And your proof that Toyota as a whole is is increasing fleet sales is found where? Now Nissan I can believe...
(And before the inevitable epithet gets tossed about, please note that I do not care for Toyotas, and their appeal is largely lost on me, but I don't waste my time arguing with success.)
1487: Some vehicles can avoid this fate, the CTS is an example, but the Aura is not getting any attention due to its newness.
The CTS was brand new at one time, too, but it still managed sell reasonably well, despite its "newness." That excuse won't wash.
1487: what is your definition of "not selling" when talking about the GM trucks? You need to look at the numbers before acting like GM cant sell any. I think they sold around 60k units in June, that isnt "not selling" in my book.
But what was GM expecting to sell? Of course the Silverado and Sierra still sell in high numbers. I never said that sales collapsed.
I said that GM was expecting BETTER sales from the Silverado and Sierra. The Silverado and Sierra have not sold as well as GM had expected, and GM was depending on these trucks to fuel a large part of its turnaround.
1487: Hey with the great deals on the Tundra and Detroit trucks the GM trucks are up against serious pressure. Who can argue with $3k back on a new Tundra?
Which brings up another point - if GM has to match Toyota's incentives to move its large trucks, it will reduce the profit margins on those trucks. GM was depending on the profits from those trucks to fuel its turnaround.
This isn't about GM bashin' or Toyota lovin'. This is about a large corporation in a dicey financial situation looking at the profit margins on its biggest cash cows shrink because of increased competition.
Couple that with too many outdated models that won't move without profit-eating incentives and low-margin fleet sales, and certain new models that aren't moving as well as expected, and you don't have to be a Toyota fan to realize that the General is in big trouble.
"Okay, so you might need a warranty sometimes/seldomly for a US built Honda, but you certainly shouldn't need a roadside assistance service. "
you just dont get it, roadside assistance is basically AAA service, its not just for breakdowns. You can call if you get a flat tire or dead battery. Its a courtesy service that many brands offer but Honda and Toyota do not. They make tons of profit but think this type of service is too expensive.
"That suggests that CR is simply factoring in reliablity into their scoring! "
they tell you that road test scores have nothing to do with reliabily. Nice try for an excuse though. The Outlook is the better vehicle but CR wasnt going to rate it as high as their precious Pilot. They clearly say the Outlook is the only crossover they have tested that has a fully usable 3rd row seat so I fail to see how they have it ranked below the Pilot and Highlander hybrid which both have kid only 3rd rows.
What is it with import fans and defending CR? Please dont tell me you buy in this garbage about them being the only source you can trust because they dont accept ads. Maybe if they took ads they could afford to tell us how they score vehicles.
andres3: Okay, so you might need a warranty sometimes/seldomly for a US built Honda, but you certainly shouldn't need a roadside assistance service.
The point of manufacture has had nothing to do with whether I needed a warranty or not. (As someone who owned both U.S-built and Japanese-built Hondas, I have not noticed any difference.)
1487: Honda could get rid of their warranties all together, lower the price by 10%, and I'd still buy (as would many people).
I sure wouldn't. They are still designed, engineered and built by humans.
"Honda and Toyota don't need to offer these things such as free loaner car rentals because prior experience tells previous buyers/owners they won't need a warranty at all, ever, period.'
please stop, you cant be serious. Have you read anything I wrote about people I know with imports? You are insulting our intelligence with such statements. Do you want to talk to my Sister in law about her camry? failed AC, water leaks that damaged the upholstery, failed power locks, etc.
Okay, you win, I'll concede one point. I'll change NEVER need to RARELY need to use warranty on Toyota or Honda. So 99% or so of Toyota Honda owners experience absolutely NO BENEFIT from warranty coverage and/or roadside assistance. The other 1% shouldn't buy Toyota's or Honda's again if they didn't "step up" to pay the bills when asked. I have a strong feeling due to current sales figures the domestics lose more customers (and have lost more) from this than do the imports.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"chetj, you have just hit it right on the nail. Corvette is about the only domestic car that I would consider. "
obviously you didnt read what he wrote, he wasnt saying that at all. He said GM makes some competitive vehicles.
If you think the vette is the only nice domestic car on the market than its pretty obvious you have no interesting in facts as related to price, styling, performance, warranty, etc.
The 300, Edge, Outlook/Acadia, SRX, STS, XLR, Aura, Sky, Fusion, Taurus/Taurus X, Pacifica, Tahoe/Yukon, Expedition, Silverado/Sierra, Vue, DTS, Lucerne, Impala, etc. are all strong domestic entries that can hold their own. soon we can add CTS, Chyrsler vans, G8, Astra and Malibu to that list.
"I cant wait until we start seeing Avalon police cruisers."
...or Avalon postal vehicles. Back in 1967, AMC was in trouble, so the U.S. Post Office Department, in an act of "charity" bought a huge fleet of new AMC Ambassadors as postal vehicles. They were probably the nicest postal vehicles ever.
"So 99% or so of Toyota Honda owners experience absolutely NO BENEFIT from warranty coverage and/or roadside assistance. "
if only that were true. One reason why import owners are loyal is because their dealers usually try hard to rectify problems quickly. Its not that these cars never need warranty repair, its that they handle them better and leave the customers less annoyed. You keep presuming that import owners never need work done (ok, 99%) but you havent addressed any of the issues I have mentioned such as the problems with the camry, the Toyota record recalls last year, my relative's 2002 camry, etc. If I remember correctly the avalon only had an average score from CR in its first year. Same for the Acura RL, not to mention I read a long term review of the RL and they had problems with the car. What gives since you know so much about the impeccable quality of Asian cars? My brother has a 3 that was made in Japan and he has had numerous repairs under warranty including new rear brakes. He also has brake dust issues, tranny hesitation issues and a weak AC that Mazda said is performing per factory specs.
So did you test drive an Altima with the CVT or was it a stick? Yes, the Altima's up over $24K seem well overpriced. Did you notice the location of the parking/emergency brake = strange?
Bundled options can in some case be a pain, using having to order a moonroof to get what you want, when I would not ever long for one. Wish that the dealership of Saturn did not have so many XRs with moonroofs and other stuff. And adding the pin strips and glass etching is ridiculous. I don't want pin stripes and if I wanted security etching, I would ask for it to be done.
Bundles can be a good thing in some cases. The Accord SE is a good bundle. And the SE with a V6 adds stability control. If Malibus, across the line-up, come in under the price of Auras, they would be the car to consider in the current line of GMs, for my needs. Still like the CTS, though would look to used cars as possibly the better value. Looks like CTS holds value better though when compared to many in the GM line, so it makes the new car a better value. New style? Will see what it looks like in the metal. One thing I like about my '07 Accord is the slightly lower door window sill. I can still hang an elbow out the window and the overall glass area yields a less confining feel while in the car. I like the interior. From the photos, I do believe the interior of the New Malibu is going to very neat indeed. Loren
From what I saw, the interior looked a lot worse than an F-150. I would say it looked more like a low-end Dodge from about 1970, but that would be an insult to all the Mopar fans out there.
"So, it's not just CR thinks that the Aura is good but not that good.
BTW, Aura XE was the only one with a 6-cylinder engine in that comparison. "
I am fully aware of what C&D said, but that doesnt change the accolades I mentioned. CR and C&D gave the worst reviews of the car I have seen- what a coincidence. In the C&D test the Aura finished 4th but the only negative comments they had were about the interior. The styling, performance and price were very competitive. The aura and Altima basically had the same performance (better than Accord) and yet the Aura came in 4th.
There are far more positive reviews of the Aura than negative. go to cars.com and read some of the newspaper reviews. Consumer Auto Guide also has the car as a recommended pick. In spite of the fact the Aura got a "low" 70 from CR they basically liked the car and it will be recommended next year.
300: Maxima/Avalon/Azera Outlook/Acadia: Highlander/CX-9 SRX: MDX/X5 STS: GS/5er/E-class/M XLR: SL/6-series Aura: Accord Sky: MX-5/S-2000/350Z Fusion: Accord Taurus: Maxima/Avalon/Azera Pacifica: Pilot/Highlander/CX-9 Tahoe/Yukon: will never interested in buying something that big Expedition: See above Silverado/Sierra: don't see myself driving a PU truck Vue: RAV4/CR-V/CX-7 DTS: LS460 Lucerne: Maxima/Avalon/Azera Impala: Maxima/Avalon/Azera CTS: IS/3er/G35 Town and Country: Odyssey G8: IS/3er/G35 Astra: Will never buy something that small Malibu: Accord
Maybe all the GM models above are cheaper than the competitors but for me that's not a big concern. When I shop for cars I usually give myself about 5 grand cushion to maneuver. It is more important for me to find the perfect one instead of settling due to price.
However, I do believe the difference in price between the Vette/Vette Z06 and 911/911S is WAY more than 5 grands...
"The CTS was brand new at one time, too, but it still managed sell reasonably well, despite its "newness." That excuse won't wash. "
you are always looking for an argument. I clearly stated the CTS was an example of a new nameplate that was successful but this isnt not always the case. My guess is the Escalade made many people familiar with the new Caddy look and thus the CTS was instantly recognizable. Plus the CTS was the CHEAPEST Caddy which was a plus while the Aura is not the cheapest Saturn.
"But what was GM expecting to sell? '
dont know, GM doesnt announce projecttions. Dont really care either. as long as GM makes lots of money on its trucks they are OK. I dont think GM is automatically losing money since they are selling 60k trucks as opposed to 65k each month.
"Couple that with too many outdated models that won't move without profit-eating incentives and low-margin fleet sales, and certain new models that aren't moving as well as expected, and you don't have to be a Toyota fan to realize that the General is in big trouble. "
I do realize you dont know much about what GM is doing. First of all GM's fleet will be as new as the rest of the industry. I think 66% of their models will be new within 3 years- Toyota is slightly higher, about 67% from what I read. Right now GM has new trucks, new crossovers, new large SUVs, new Vue and new CTS and Malibu on the way. I do not see how they have one of the oldest lineups on the road as you say.
BTW, the trucks are just ONE part of their plan to generate revenue and make money. You arent mentioning UAW talks, buyouts, ending the jobs bank, cutting incentives, cutting fleet sales, etc. Trucks are ONE part of the equation, but not the whole plan.
"And your proof that Toyota as a whole is is increasing fleet sales is found where? "
Just look for yourself and tell me what you see. Do you think Corollas have always sold 16% to fleets? Did you see camry, corolla and Sienna rentals 5 years ago? I didnt, but I see them now. If we were having this conversation a few years back you would be bragging about how Toyota has virtually NO fleet sales at all. Now we see they clearly do have a fleet presence and you are saying "how do you know their fleet sales increased?". we know because they went from virtually NO fleet sales to SOME fleet sales. I never said they were on par with GM in fleet penetration.
You are aware that 70 from CR falls in to the "VG" category on their charts, and VG stands for very good.
How come you know so much about CR's reviews if you hate them so much and don't believe what they say.
Until another publication comes out that doesn't accept payoffs in the form of advertisements (like GM likes to pull ad money when a bad review or article is written), then CR is the bible, plain and simple.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
you are so eager to argue that you didnt even read what I said. I didnt say those cars were the ONLY options nor did I say they were hands down best in class. I DID say they were competitive and worthy of consideration. Obviously if you are biased against anything that isnt Japanese they arent viable options for you. Kind of like the way Tom Cruise probably isnt a viable spouse for Rosie O'Donnell. If a certain group of cars is totally off your list of consideration the facts really dont matter.
"When I shop for cars I usually give myself about 5 grand cushion to maneuver. It is more important for me to find the perfect one instead of settling due to price. "
with the extra $5k you can just get a domestic with more options. Sorry, but I dont consider a $5k price difference between two similar cars to be acceptable and I think most people feel the same way. Of course, to someone determined to find fault with any domestic car I'm sure 10 grand is an acceptable price gap.
"Astra: Will never buy something that small "
Just to be clear, I never asked you if you wanted a car of that type nor was I suggesting I was personally interested in the vehicles I mentioned. I love when import guys dismiss competitive vehicles by saying "I dont buy cars like that anyway". I dont want a pickup but the Silverado is still a damn good one. You dont need to be in the market for a vehicle to understand its competence. I shouldnt have to explain that, its pretty obvious. I aint in the market for a Z06 but I surely would like to have one.
you have to be an import die hard to be passing off the Pilot as a potential buy in the crossover market- it is clearly an also ran at this point. I also see zero appeal in the Accord, Avalon (I'm way too young to think that car looks good), Highlander, CX-7 (small gas guzzler with cheap plastics) or the Azera with its circa 1999 dashboard.
"Until another publication comes out that doesn't accept payoffs in the form of advertisements (like GM likes to pull ad money when a bad review or article is written), then CR is the bible, plain and simple. "
this is the biggest joke of an argument anyone can make for CR. What evidence do you have that regular mags accept bribes? NONE. GM spends more ad money than ANYONE and their products get average reviews at BEST from the print mags. The notion that ads buy you praise is a complete crock and cannot be supported in any way. CR's methods are a joke and anyone who knows stuff about statistics and data gathering knows you dont sample the SAME people every year to get objective results. CR's excuse is always they have a large sample but that is totally irrelevent. Sample size is not important, but the quality of your participants is important.
Please tell me this isnt new to you.
go to truedelta.com to read some of his analysis of CR's flawed methods. They have the system set up to deliver the same type of results year after year. They also changed the standards to make cars look unreliabl when in fact they are not. CR only tell you how cars fare vs the average, not overall reliability. If the class average is 4 problems per 100 cars a car with a clear circle may have 5 or 6 problems per 100 cars and yet its not unreliable. There is a reason they avoid mentioning actual problems per vehicle, they know if they show those numbers people will see the cars arent that far apart. They tell you the overall problem rate for domestics, Japanese and Euro cars in the car issue and the Japanese cars are only slightly better but when you look at the charts all you see is a bunch of average and below average ratings for american cars. They present the data in a way that makes it seem like the cars with less than "good" ratings are unreliable when they arent that much worse than the "good" cars.
I read the last issue of CR to specifically see what they said about the Outlook. I have no respect for their results. Tons of domestic cars are returning average reliability these days but only a handful are recommended because they give them all poor test scores and you cant be recommended without a high score AND good reliability.
"Currently there is not a single domestic model that's attractive to me except the Corvette. "
The person you were agreeing with said something totally different. He said GM has some strong entries in their lineup , especially the vette. I dont see why you told him he hit the nail on the head and then said you would only consider one domestic model.
"The mazda 6 gets 42% of its sales from fleets according to that chart and yet I dont hear anyone saying its a piece of crap due to that. Only domestic cars are crap when they have a high % of fleet sales."
The Mazda 6 gets pounded and dissed by Honda and Toyota fans because sometimes Honda and Toyota owners are too stubborn to drive anything but those 2 brands. The Mazda 6 didn;t have enough interior room in comparison with the 03-07 Accord and 02-06 Altima from what people here said on Edmunds for their tastes. Also the Mazda 6 interior wasn;t too everybody's liking. Honda and Toyota fans question Mazda's resale value as well so thats a reason why they won;t touch a Mazda either. Keep in mind I do like Honda as well but the beating Mazda takes from the Japanese Big 2 fans is just unwarranted I feel sometimes.
"Just look for yourself and tell me what you see. Do you think Corollas have always sold 16% to fleets? Did you see camry, corolla and Sienna rentals 5 years ago? I didnt, but I see them now. fleets? Did you see camry, corolla and Sienna rentals 5 years ago? I didnt, but I see them now. If we were having this conversation a few years back you would be bragging about how Toyota has virtually NO fleet sales at all. Now we see they clearly do have a fleet presence and you are saying "how do you know their fleet sales increased?". we know because they went from virtually NO fleet sales to SOME fleet sales."
1487, I want to see records of Toyota's rental fleet sales from 5 years ago as compared to now since you are bringing up. The Camry has always been in fleets I think.
"I NEVER said the camry is increasing fleet sales, I said Toyota and Nissan as a WHOLE are increasing fleet sales, or at least represent more of that market than they used to."
Do you have any info that Toyota is increasing fleet sales as is Nissan. I want to see the proof.
I'm sure that it isn't the same subscriber's responding to CR's survey year after year. I'm sure people die off, and they get new subscriber's every year. Futhermore, some years you might not respond to the survey, and some years you do.
Lastly, how did CR "find" only import lovers as subscribers. Why wouldn't domestic buyers and lovers have subscribed when they first got started?
A clear circle represents average reliablity, not "unreliability." You stated otherwise. Most people are not interested in below average or average reliablity, but want only the MOST reliable vehicles. CR's circles are perfect for demonstrating that. Average reliablity might be more than enough for you, but I know that the "statistical range" for average falls into the below average territory, whereas the red circles propably fall well within a 95% liklihood that even the WORST car off the assembly line will still be "high average" at worst.
Why take chances?
CR has made it very clear what there grading criteria priorities are every year. They value fuel economy, ease of use, comfort, and reliablity above all.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
Ah, but this is but another fleeting moment in time for GM.
Of the rentals mentioned, the Sebring comes to mind as the dog of the bunch, but as always this is only my humble opinion (OK add the press). The Sonata is not a bad car, yet it is still not 100% enough to take on the best of the best and dealerships may be a weak spot too -- just a thought. Overall, I would take the Sonata over the Sebring. Now looks wise the Dodge version is dialed in better, yet still nothing I would consider. You may disagree, which is fine. The aging Impala is a better looking car than those newer efforts by Chrysler, IMHO.
Loren
GM's bumper to bumper warranty is not "better" than the imports. They need to do so! The powertrain warranty is only half the battle.
Honda and Toyota don't need to offer these things such as free loaner car rentals because prior experience tells previous buyers/owners they won't need a warranty at all, ever, period. As far as I know Honda/Audi do offer free roadside assistance for the standard warranty term. Unless something's changes since 2003 for Honda.
"As for GM reporting lower sales because of decreased fleet sales - only about 15 percent of June's decline could be explained by reduced fleet sales. The rest is because of lower retail sales. "
No one ever said otherwise. Last month wasnt a good one for GM by any measure. If you are trying to "prove" that people werent flocking to GM dealers last month you dont need to. Gm had good sales in May but June went south- didnt see anyone using the May results to predict GM's future though.
"The Aura's STICKER price may be competitive, but it is not competitive with a discounted Camry or Accord, which have not sold for MSRP for years. "
The Aura has a $1750 rebate if you get your own financing, its very competitive with the camry and accord on price. The car isnt selling because people dont know what it is and because a large % of import owners arent going to drive anything from Detroit regardless of merit. Some vehicles can avoid this fate, the CTS is an example, but the Aura is not getting any attention due to its newness.
The Lacrosse has been around since 2004 with no major changes. It replaced two cars that were heavily fleet. Now GM has cut back on fleet sales and the Lacrosse is suffering big time. Its hardly new or even the best midsize car in GM's fleet. As for those who say quality is why GM products dont sell- the lacrosse has decent CR scores in reliability but its not selling. Then again, it still sells about the same as the Passat so maybe its not a failure. its apparent GM wants the Lacrosse to be seen as more than a rental and wants it to have better resale value.
what is your definition of "not selling" when talking about the GM trucks? You need to look at the numbers before acting like GM cant sell any. I think they sold around 60k units in June, that isnt "not selling" in my book. Hey with the great deals on the Tundra and Detroit trucks the GM trucks are up against serious pressure. Who can argue with $3k back on a new Tundra?
The powertrain is the most expensive to fix. People are often leary of tranny and engine problems and those are covered. Buick, Saab and Caddy have 4 year warranties. The other GM brands match the bumper to bumper of the imports.
The GM warranty info is available to anyone willing to read up on it online. You get a loaner when your car is in for WARRANTY work not oil changes. I dont believe ToyoHOnda give out loaner cars for service or warranty work.
"Honda and Toyota don't need to offer these things such as free loaner car rentals because prior experience tells previous buyers/owners they won't need a warranty at all, ever, period.'
please stop, you cant be serious. Have you read anything I wrote about people I know with imports? You are insulting our intelligence with such statements. Do you want to talk to my Sister in law about her camry? failed AC, water leaks that damaged the upholstery, failed power locks, etc.
I wouldn't go THAT far. No one is going to buy any vehicle without a warranty these days, whether it's a Honda, Toyota, Chevrolet or BMW.
And I don't recall receiving free roadside assistance with my 2003 Accord EX.
1. It really isn't as good as the GM lovers are saying, and the 70 rating/score from Consumer Reports is spot on (so it's good, but not THAT good).
2. It's way overpriced; advertise a 2003 Accord LXV6 with 65K miles for $20,000 and "no one will know about it" and nobody will call you. Advertise it for $5,000 and it'll be sold within hours, not days. It's always about cost/price!
3. Saturn's previous customers and buyers were not thrilled with their previous Saturn experiences and don't want to purchase another Saturn or move up the Saturn line. Many Civic buyers move up to the Accord later in life. Why can't Saturn buyers move up to the Aura?
4.
with all due respect you are so biased that you cant recognize the obvious. CR is completely inconsistent in their reviews and they dont even tell you how they score vehicles. What could be worse than a magazine that comes up with test scores but doesnt tell you were they get them? In the latest issue they say the CX-9 has a refined engine but the Edge has a course, unrefined engine. They have the SAME engine! Please explain. CR says the engines are "Similar" as if to suggest Mazda has a nicer version but they are the same and Ford makes the engine.
I know my '06 Audi does, just in case.
Thank goodness for that. I think 2 of my Dodge's 4 tow truck pickups we're paid for by Dodge. The other 2 happened between 3 years and 65K, so I had to shell out for those.
its not about what we are saying. Try reading some reviews of the car. Read autoweek, edmunds, R&T, cars.com, etc. Again, you can make more informed statements if you have some background on the vehicles in question. CR isnt the only game in town. You conveniently ignored the accolades for the Aura I just mentioned. One thing I find with most import fans is that they see no problem with offering extensive commentary on cars they know little about. How can your opinion be informed when you arent familiar with the subject matter.
Point is, "we" are the ones saying the Aura is a nice car. The press has said it over and over and over.
Loren
I thought you got the magazine? Listen, I dont make things up or lie (dont need to) to make a point. Find the current issue and read the crossovercomparison yourself if you doubt what I am saying. CR is consistently inconsistent and its obvious to anyone who cares to notice. Most Toyota fans dont notice because they read CR just to verify their cars are still whipping up on domestics in every issue. CR gives like minded people the results they want to see over and over. Its for import owners by import lovers.
The CX-9 and Edge have different 6 speeds but their comments were about the engines- which are the same. Keep in mind the Edge is quieter than the RX350 according to Ford tests so I have a hard time believing the engine is that loud.
BTW, one of GM's crappy vehicles (Outlook) finished first in the comparo. They dont explain why it finished lower than the inferior Pilot but the Pilot is ranked higher. Pilot is smaller, has worse mileage, less power, less features, etc. but it scores higher. I love it.
So, it's not just CR thinks that the Aura is good but not that good.
BTW, Aura XE was the only one with a 6-cylinder engine in that comparison.
Honda could get rid of their warranties all together, lower the price by 10%, and I'd still buy (as would many people). If they get rid of them all together with no price reduction, then I might have a problem with that as you can't take something away for nothing from me. It's not so much about the peace of mind "just in case you get that one in a million" lemon. It's more about the image it would project from American Honda if they did that move of eliminating their warranties (suspicion they will follow the Chrysler formula of quality for now on due to no warranty). The warranty keeps Honda and Toyota "honest."
My car is american, its a 2002 and its crap! If the people here didnt turn me against imports I might've considered one. Overall people I know with domestics have had reasonable experiences as have people with imports. I have known enough people with imports to know that people forgive what they want to when they believe in a brand or car. The notion that imports never need repairs as someone here suggested is a complete joke. My cousine bought a used Stratus with about 90k miles on it and has had few problems with it in the last two years or so. The interior isnt great and the engine isnt Honda smooth- but the car runs and doesnt break down. I know, its one in a million.... he just got lucky. Thats what I hear everytime a reliable american car is mentioned.
for my replacement car I plan on looking at Aura, Malibu and Accord. The altima's packaging is terrible, to get one I want would cost $30k due to bundling. I HATE that and imports always bundle options.
And your proof that Toyota as a whole is is increasing fleet sales is found where? Now Nissan I can believe...
(And before the inevitable epithet gets tossed about, please note that I do not care for Toyotas, and their appeal is largely lost on me, but I don't waste my time arguing with success.)
1487: Some vehicles can avoid this fate, the CTS is an example, but the Aura is not getting any attention due to its newness.
The CTS was brand new at one time, too, but it still managed sell reasonably well, despite its "newness." That excuse won't wash.
1487: what is your definition of "not selling" when talking about the GM trucks? You need to look at the numbers before acting like GM cant sell any. I think they sold around 60k units in June, that isnt "not selling" in my book.
But what was GM expecting to sell? Of course the Silverado and Sierra still sell in high numbers. I never said that sales collapsed.
I said that GM was expecting BETTER sales from the Silverado and Sierra. The Silverado and Sierra have not sold as well as GM had expected, and GM was depending on these trucks to fuel a large part of its turnaround.
1487: Hey with the great deals on the Tundra and Detroit trucks the GM trucks are up against serious pressure. Who can argue with $3k back on a new Tundra?
Which brings up another point - if GM has to match Toyota's incentives to move its large trucks, it will reduce the profit margins on those trucks. GM was depending on the profits from those trucks to fuel its turnaround.
This isn't about GM bashin' or Toyota lovin'. This is about a large corporation in a dicey financial situation looking at the profit margins on its biggest cash cows shrink because of increased competition.
Couple that with too many outdated models that won't move without profit-eating incentives and low-margin fleet sales, and certain new models that aren't moving as well as expected, and you don't have to be a Toyota fan to realize that the General is in big trouble.
That suggests that CR is simply factoring in reliablity into their scoring!
you just dont get it, roadside assistance is basically AAA service, its not just for breakdowns. You can call if you get a flat tire or dead battery. Its a courtesy service that many brands offer but Honda and Toyota do not. They make tons of profit but think this type of service is too expensive.
they tell you that road test scores have nothing to do with reliabily. Nice try for an excuse though. The Outlook is the better vehicle but CR wasnt going to rate it as high as their precious Pilot. They clearly say the Outlook is the only crossover they have tested that has a fully usable 3rd row seat so I fail to see how they have it ranked below the Pilot and Highlander hybrid which both have kid only 3rd rows.
What is it with import fans and defending CR? Please dont tell me you buy in this garbage about them being the only source you can trust because they dont accept ads. Maybe if they took ads they could afford to tell us how they score vehicles.
The point of manufacture has had nothing to do with whether I needed a warranty or not. (As someone who owned both U.S-built and Japanese-built Hondas, I have not noticed any difference.)
1487: Honda could get rid of their warranties all together, lower the price by 10%, and I'd still buy (as would many people).
I sure wouldn't. They are still designed, engineered and built by humans.
please stop, you cant be serious. Have you read anything I wrote about people I know with imports? You are insulting our intelligence with such statements. Do you want to talk to my Sister in law about her camry? failed AC, water leaks that damaged the upholstery, failed power locks, etc.
Okay, you win, I'll concede one point. I'll change NEVER need to RARELY need to use warranty on Toyota or Honda. So 99% or so of Toyota Honda owners experience absolutely NO BENEFIT from warranty coverage and/or roadside assistance. The other 1% shouldn't buy Toyota's or Honda's again if they didn't "step up" to pay the bills when asked. I have a strong feeling due to current sales figures the domestics lose more customers (and have lost more) from this than do the imports.
obviously you didnt read what he wrote, he wasnt saying that at all. He said GM makes some competitive vehicles.
If you think the vette is the only nice domestic car on the market than its pretty obvious you have no interesting in facts as related to price, styling, performance, warranty, etc.
The 300, Edge, Outlook/Acadia, SRX, STS, XLR, Aura, Sky, Fusion, Taurus/Taurus X, Pacifica, Tahoe/Yukon, Expedition, Silverado/Sierra, Vue, DTS, Lucerne, Impala, etc. are all strong domestic entries that can hold their own. soon we can add CTS, Chyrsler vans, G8, Astra and Malibu to that list.
...or Avalon postal vehicles. Back in 1967, AMC was in trouble, so the U.S. Post Office Department, in an act of "charity" bought a huge fleet of new AMC Ambassadors as postal vehicles. They were probably the nicest postal vehicles ever.
if only that were true. One reason why import owners are loyal is because their dealers usually try hard to rectify problems quickly. Its not that these cars never need warranty repair, its that they handle them better and leave the customers less annoyed. You keep presuming that import owners never need work done (ok, 99%) but you havent addressed any of the issues I have mentioned such as the problems with the camry, the Toyota record recalls last year, my relative's 2002 camry, etc. If I remember correctly the avalon only had an average score from CR in its first year. Same for the Acura RL, not to mention I read a long term review of the RL and they had problems with the car. What gives since you know so much about the impeccable quality of Asian cars? My brother has a 3 that was made in Japan and he has had numerous repairs under warranty including new rear brakes. He also has brake dust issues, tranny hesitation issues and a weak AC that Mazda said is performing per factory specs.
Bundled options can in some case be a pain, using having to order a moonroof to get what you want, when I would not ever long for one. Wish that the dealership of Saturn did not have so many XRs with moonroofs and other stuff. And adding the pin strips and glass etching is ridiculous. I don't want pin stripes and if I wanted security etching, I would ask for it to be done.
Bundles can be a good thing in some cases. The Accord SE is a good bundle. And the SE with a V6 adds stability control. If Malibus, across the line-up, come in under the price of Auras, they would be the car to consider in the current line of GMs, for my needs. Still like the CTS, though would look to used cars as possibly the better value. Looks like CTS holds value better though when compared to many in the GM line, so it makes the new car a better value. New style? Will see what it looks like in the metal. One thing I like about my '07 Accord is the slightly lower door window sill. I can still hang an elbow out the window and the overall glass area yields a less confining feel while in the car. I like the interior. From the photos, I do believe the interior of the New Malibu is going to very neat indeed.
Loren
BTW, Aura XE was the only one with a 6-cylinder engine in that comparison. "
I am fully aware of what C&D said, but that doesnt change the accolades I mentioned. CR and C&D gave the worst reviews of the car I have seen- what a coincidence. In the C&D test the Aura finished 4th but the only negative comments they had were about the interior. The styling, performance and price were very competitive. The aura and Altima basically had the same performance (better than Accord) and yet the Aura came in 4th.
There are far more positive reviews of the Aura than negative. go to cars.com and read some of the newspaper reviews. Consumer Auto Guide also has the car as a recommended pick. In spite of the fact the Aura got a "low" 70 from CR they basically liked the car and it will be recommended next year.
300: Maxima/Avalon/Azera
Outlook/Acadia: Highlander/CX-9
SRX: MDX/X5
STS: GS/5er/E-class/M
XLR: SL/6-series
Aura: Accord
Sky: MX-5/S-2000/350Z
Fusion: Accord
Taurus: Maxima/Avalon/Azera
Pacifica: Pilot/Highlander/CX-9
Tahoe/Yukon: will never interested in buying something that big
Expedition: See above
Silverado/Sierra: don't see myself driving a PU truck
Vue: RAV4/CR-V/CX-7
DTS: LS460
Lucerne: Maxima/Avalon/Azera
Impala: Maxima/Avalon/Azera
CTS: IS/3er/G35
Town and Country: Odyssey
G8: IS/3er/G35
Astra: Will never buy something that small
Malibu: Accord
Maybe all the GM models above are cheaper than the competitors but for me that's not a big concern. When I shop for cars I usually give myself about 5 grand cushion to maneuver. It is more important for me to find the perfect one instead of settling due to price.
However, I do believe the difference in price between the Vette/Vette Z06 and 911/911S is WAY more than 5 grands...
you are always looking for an argument. I clearly stated the CTS was an example of a new nameplate that was successful but this isnt not always the case. My guess is the Escalade made many people familiar with the new Caddy look and thus the CTS was instantly recognizable. Plus the CTS was the CHEAPEST Caddy which was a plus while the Aura is not the cheapest Saturn.
"But what was GM expecting to sell? '
dont know, GM doesnt announce projecttions. Dont really care either. as long as GM makes lots of money on its trucks they are OK. I dont think GM is automatically losing money since they are selling 60k trucks as opposed to 65k each month.
"Couple that with too many outdated models that won't move without profit-eating incentives and low-margin fleet sales, and certain new models that aren't moving as well as expected, and you don't have to be a Toyota fan to realize that the General is in big trouble. "
I do realize you dont know much about what GM is doing. First of all GM's fleet will be as new as the rest of the industry. I think 66% of their models will be new within 3 years- Toyota is slightly higher, about 67% from what I read. Right now GM has new trucks, new crossovers, new large SUVs, new Vue and new CTS and Malibu on the way. I do not see how they have one of the oldest lineups on the road as you say.
BTW, the trucks are just ONE part of their plan to generate revenue and make money. You arent mentioning UAW talks, buyouts, ending the jobs bank, cutting incentives, cutting fleet sales, etc. Trucks are ONE part of the equation, but not the whole plan.
"And your proof that Toyota as a whole is is increasing fleet sales is found where? "
Just look for yourself and tell me what you see. Do you think Corollas have always sold 16% to fleets? Did you see camry, corolla and Sienna rentals 5 years ago? I didnt, but I see them now. If we were having this conversation a few years back you would be bragging about how Toyota has virtually NO fleet sales at all. Now we see they clearly do have a fleet presence and you are saying "how do you know their fleet sales increased?". we know because they went from virtually NO fleet sales to SOME fleet sales. I never said they were on par with GM in fleet penetration.
Comfort, ergonomics, ease of use, smoothness of powertrain, material quality, build quality, interior design, lighting, safety, ect.
Naah, I'm just curious. Most of the hardcore domestic loyalists in here buy the big, expensive sedans.
How come you know so much about CR's reviews if you hate them so much and don't believe what they say.
Until another publication comes out that doesn't accept payoffs in the form of advertisements (like GM likes to pull ad money when a bad review or article is written), then CR is the bible, plain and simple.
"When I shop for cars I usually give myself about 5 grand cushion to maneuver. It is more important for me to find the perfect one instead of settling due to price. "
with the extra $5k you can just get a domestic with more options. Sorry, but I dont consider a $5k price difference between two similar cars to be acceptable and I think most people feel the same way. Of course, to someone determined to find fault with any domestic car I'm sure 10 grand is an acceptable price gap.
"Astra: Will never buy something that small "
Just to be clear, I never asked you if you wanted a car of that type nor was I suggesting I was personally interested in the vehicles I mentioned. I love when import guys dismiss competitive vehicles by saying "I dont buy cars like that anyway". I dont want a pickup but the Silverado is still a damn good one. You dont need to be in the market for a vehicle to understand its competence. I shouldnt have to explain that, its pretty obvious. I aint in the market for a Z06 but I surely would like to have one.
you have to be an import die hard to be passing off the Pilot as a potential buy in the crossover market- it is clearly an also ran at this point. I also see zero appeal in the Accord, Avalon (I'm way too young to think that car looks good), Highlander, CX-7 (small gas guzzler with cheap plastics) or the Azera with its circa 1999 dashboard.
Currently there is not a single domestic model that's attractive to me except the Corvette.
this is the biggest joke of an argument anyone can make for CR. What evidence do you have that regular mags accept bribes? NONE. GM spends more ad money than ANYONE and their products get average reviews at BEST from the print mags. The notion that ads buy you praise is a complete crock and cannot be supported in any way. CR's methods are a joke and anyone who knows stuff about statistics and data gathering knows you dont sample the SAME people every year to get objective results. CR's excuse is always they have a large sample but that is totally irrelevent. Sample size is not important, but the quality of your participants is important.
Please tell me this isnt new to you.
go to truedelta.com to read some of his analysis of CR's flawed methods. They have the system set up to deliver the same type of results year after year. They also changed the standards to make cars look unreliabl when in fact they are not. CR only tell you how cars fare vs the average, not overall reliability. If the class average is 4 problems per 100 cars a car with a clear circle may have 5 or 6 problems per 100 cars and yet its not unreliable. There is a reason they avoid mentioning actual problems per vehicle, they know if they show those numbers people will see the cars arent that far apart. They tell you the overall problem rate for domestics, Japanese and Euro cars in the car issue and the Japanese cars are only slightly better but when you look at the charts all you see is a bunch of average and below average ratings for american cars. They present the data in a way that makes it seem like the cars with less than "good" ratings are unreliable when they arent that much worse than the "good" cars.
I read the last issue of CR to specifically see what they said about the Outlook. I have no respect for their results. Tons of domestic cars are returning average reliability these days but only a handful are recommended because they give them all poor test scores and you cant be recommended without a high score AND good reliability.
The person you were agreeing with said something totally different. He said GM has some strong entries in their lineup , especially the vette. I dont see why you told him he hit the nail on the head and then said you would only consider one domestic model.
The Mazda 6 gets pounded and dissed by Honda and Toyota fans because sometimes Honda and Toyota owners are too stubborn to drive anything but those 2 brands. The Mazda 6 didn;t have enough interior room in comparison with the 03-07 Accord and 02-06 Altima from what people here said on Edmunds for their tastes. Also the Mazda 6 interior wasn;t too everybody's liking. Honda and Toyota fans question Mazda's resale value as well so thats a reason why they won;t touch a Mazda either. Keep in mind I do like Honda as well but the beating Mazda takes from the Japanese Big 2 fans is just unwarranted I feel sometimes.
Isn't that what we do in here anyway? Taking half of others' statement and run with it?
1487, I want to see records of Toyota's rental fleet sales from 5 years ago as compared to now since you are bringing up. The Camry has always been in fleets I think.
The Outlook got a good review I heard in CR so what are you complaining about?
Do you have any info that Toyota is increasing fleet sales as is Nissan. I want to see the proof.
Some of the spiffs and trips that some car reporters get is a bit suspicious.
steve_, "Lets talk media" #4, 17 May 2007 10:55 pm
Lastly, how did CR "find" only import lovers as subscribers. Why wouldn't domestic buyers and lovers have subscribed when they first got started?
A clear circle represents average reliablity, not "unreliability." You stated otherwise. Most people are not interested in below average or average reliablity, but want only the MOST reliable vehicles. CR's circles are perfect for demonstrating that. Average reliablity might be more than enough for you, but I know that the "statistical range" for average falls into the below average territory, whereas the red circles propably fall well within a 95% liklihood that even the WORST car off the assembly line will still be "high average" at worst.
Why take chances?
CR has made it very clear what there grading criteria priorities are every year. They value fuel economy, ease of use, comfort, and reliablity above all.
:shades:
Loren
Do you have stats from the 90's on what hpw many cars import companies sold to fleets?
"I think the chart posted recently will show that import penetration into fleets is getting pretty high in some cases."
What percentage of a car sold to fleets suggests to you that import peneration into fleets is getting high?