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Comments
Loren
If they don't offer the 4-cyl, it's wrong because having an economical 6-cyl with good power levels just ain't what they should do. Every one would know that they ought to have a 6-cyl that makes more horsepower than 275 horsepower that's what company X has put in their car. Never mind that the 275 horsepower motor has the same torque at 2500 rpm as the other motor, or even has less because of the tweaking for the high horsepower output to advertise to the NASCAR types who believe a motor with a higher horsepower output (albeit at high speeds) means a better motor.
GM has come out with changes in the last couple of years to improve their offerings. They are reducing their cost of production since they have people who have worked for them for years and they take care of their older workers after they retire and before they retire... They're well on their way out of problems they caused for themselves in the past.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Second is an accusation of trash talk. I do not talk trash. Straight and to the point talk only. If you wish to talk MPG, i4 engine supplied cars would do better once they rid themselves of that four speed transmission. As for price, if they have no base models on the lot, and do not wish to deal with you on the trade-in price, then yeah, we can talk pricing as a problem too. And they set a price, then add junk to the car as a side sticker - what's up with that? Thought these are one price cars, coast to coast? For a car of the year, they are certainly being generous when offering discounts off sticker -- could it be the retail was set too high in the first place? Thought the idea of Saturn pricing was that it is set to be the bargain/value price when compared to the competition and thus everyone is already getting a deal. What you will find on the lots are cars beefed up with options, plus a side sticker, and not really all that much the bargain. Sticker shock sets in and people bolt from the lots.
You asked, I told.
Loren
If you are to characterize - generalize NASCAR types, as you say, I think you are talking more about those buying say a Monte Carlo. The high revving racers "types" as you would say belong more the American LeMans Series, in which those Corvettes are pretty fine. Race tracks speed is more HP. Now I take it drag strip racing, corner light in town to the next may indeed require that torque off the line. Nice to have torque on those country roads, when zooming along. GM four banger has good torque and HP, so when mated with a decent transmission, it should perform well, while achieving some better gas mileage.
Good day, Loren
They drive needlessly quick, exaggerated takeoffs, and cornering like they have a family emergency to get home to take care of.
For these drivers, and for myself, it's about how the engine's driveability is at normal use in my type of driving. That is mostly dependent on the torque it produces at lower speeds for starts from stopsigns and stoplights. However some think if they have a motor rated at 400 horsepower they have more power themselves--a psychological mindset. There also is a brand of trucks and trucklike vehicles that seem to do the same thing and they drive to fit that mindset.
As for the positive words about a 4-cyl and a manual shift, I could actually see that for myself. The distaff half wouldn't like it but I'd like my son to have to learn to drive a manual as well as an automatic. A 4-cyl and manual would be more economical, usually, and a nice replacement to the stable of cars for the future.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
DrFill
All I'm sayin' is if you're gonna be a hybrid, at least be a good hybrid.
If 80% of midsize buyers get 4-cylinder, shouldn't you try to sell them one? :confuse:
DrFill
DrFill
Just a thought.
Loren
different dealers use the side sticker differently.
Nobody gives good trade in value. Dealers try to make $200 net profit on a new car sale that puts one of their cars in circulation to generate profitable service work for their dealership. Trade in values are what a dealer would pay for your car at an auction where there were 3 other ones just like it to be auctioned next. They have to invest their money in a car that may never be serviced at their lot. They like to have $3700 fluff in a trade in value, so they can spend 1k prepping it, 1k negotiation room and then $1700 for interest and commission and profit. These are one shot chances for profit. If the car doesn't sell, they have to auction it off.
If saturn offers a 3.5L V6 base and Camry a 4 cyl, why should Saturn up the ante?
I thought the Aura was the step above car, as in competing with the V6 Camry or an Avalon, while the Malibu and G6 are those competing with the Camry more base models? Anyway, the 3.5 with a 4 sp. is pretty old school and the gas mileage seems OK. Not sure about real world figures for in town. I know the freeway mileage on the old OHV V6 from GM can be up to 10% above the government supplied numbers, which is a good thing. Basically, the XE just confuses the image people will have of the Saturn. The XR is spunkier and more Euro or shall we say competitive with the best of the Asian V6 car. The XE is seen more of an continuation of the old GM, shall we say Buick like.
Loren
Just a thought, Loren
Camry 4 cyl auto 21/30
Accord 4 cyl auto 21/31
Aura XE 18/28
About 10% difference. Not bad, considering you get 40% more hp than the Camry, and 35% more than the Accord.
I will agree though, if they want a V-6 standard, and REALLY want to make it a selling point, the 6 sp auto should be offered as standard on the XE ( a 5 sp man. as an option is ok too). Maybe they can put the DI 3.6 in it as standard, just knock it down to say 3.0 liters, w/ an output of 215 hp. Leave the 3.6 for the XR.
DrFill
If you do an average on the i4 Accord vs. Aura 3.5 OHV for gas mileage, then run the math for a difference, it looks to be 13% gain for the i4 engine car. What I found over the years is that the four bangers usually can deliver on fuel economy around town, and the V6 + heavier cars seem to do well mostly on the open roads. So it depends on where it is driven. Wonder what the gas mileage will be on that new Astra Opel/Saturn ?
As for hitting EPA fuel mileage figures, I have rarely had a problem and sometimes hit over the mark by 10%. Well until I bought a PT Cruiser. Those get gas mileage possibly close to, then well below the EPA depending on the wind that day and the little extra foot into it action. Let's say, it is all over the map. GM V6 cars usually are stable in gas mileage, my new Honda seems like it is in range, but so far not up to 10% over the mark - still new. My guess is that the SUVs are unpredictable. Not sure about Fords. Don't most people complain about gas mileage not up to the standards with many of their cars? Have not owned enough to really know. Older Mustangs '65 & '85, so no up to date info. to share.
Loren
Loren
Boy, can't a guy ask a question around here? Jeez.
Hey, times are tough. I feel your pain. :sick:
DrFill
Cheers!
Better yet they should have bought the 6 speed DSG from VW and gotten the BEST auto transmission on the market.
Loren
There are about 70 problems with transmissions in the 2007 Camry listed on the NHTSA Office of Defects. I would say that is widespread. Most were erratic transmission behaviour. Now the Tundra 6 speed is failing.
This complaint filed June 13th 2007 with the NHTSA:
I SLOWED DOWN THE CAR AT THE END OF AN INTERSTATE EXIT RAMP TO CHECK FOR TRAFFIC AND THINKING I HAD ENOUGH TIME TO CROSS THE INTERSECTION I GAVE IT GAS AND GOT VERY LITTLE ACCELERATION. WHEN I PUSHED THE GAS TO THE FLOOR I STILL GOT NO MORE ACCELERATION. I WROTE THE TOYOTA SERVICE DEPARTMENT TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT TO BRING IT IN AND RECEIVED THE RESPONSE THAT THEY WERE AWARE OF THE PROBLEM, BUT AT THIS TIME THERE WAS NO SOLUTION SO DO NOT BRING THE CAR IN. IF THERE HAD BEEN MORE TRAFFIC IN THAT SITUATION IT WOULD HAVE CAUSED A WRECK. ACCELERATION IS ALSO VERY ERRATIC WHEN USING CRUISE CONTROL, GOING UP A SLIGHT HILL WILL CAUSE THE MOTOR TO RACE. ALSO, IT REQUIRES QUITE A LOT OF FORCE TO STOP THE CAR
They'll teach 'Yota how to build six-speeds. Toyota will teach them how to build cars people will buy more than once. Everybody wins!
Nice! You have a good future in macro-economics.
Hell, Toyota should buy GM too! With the new Malibu, it looks like the perfect Hybrid sedan has been created! I hope a deal can be struck.
Not that Toyota hasn't asked GM before to get in on that hair-brained scheme.
GM is way to sharp for that.
DrFill
It's interesting to note that GM recently sold Allison, a maker of commercial transmissions.
DrFill
There seems to be an excess of Toyota talk in here lately so I've done some pruning.
I had a '98 Corolla, which was a good car. The current one looks too narrow for the height. Toyota service, at the time, was very good and the car solid. So, yes I have had good experience with a Toyota. Does it make me a fan, ummm, not really. Fan is short for fanatic, and gosh I am not sure what cars I am a big fan of. If I had the money, perhaps a Corvette, Porsche, BMW and the Jaguar XKE or Camaro come to mind. Had great time with the Miata, but not sure I am a fan of Mazda, though they make a couple three good cars. Favorite Cadillac was the Eldorado though what I really would consider now is more of a drivers car in the CTS. May buy a used, last year of the first generation CTS with the 3.6 V6 some day. We shall see how relationship with Honda goes. This one is my first.
Speaking of transmissions, I wonder how many people like the CVT in the Altima, and how many plan to avoid the car due to this CVT? I was less than impressed, but only did one test drive. Maybe it is something you like over time. Did not like the emergency brake placement and thought the ride was quiet or solid as the others tested. Like I said, maybe it was the one drive only. Datsuns were so trouble free, then they became less than perfect, and I am not sure how I feel about them now. Does the data prove them middle of the road, or a better buy? If GM wants to really go on the offensive in the mid-size car class, I can see some opportunity if they strike early enough. I hear that the New Malibu is still months away. Will the New Accord come out first and take some of the dazzle away?
Loren
Don't remind me
And you have to ask why you can't ask a simple question??? Jeez is right!!!
This is not hard to understand at all. There are MANY domestics worth considering to people who are objective (that excludes many here) but MOST of those models are from GM. As a whole GM makes better vehicles than Ford or Chrysler and there are only a handful of Ford/Chrysler products I would consider and most of them are Fords. I would much rather have a GM vehicle than a Hyundai, Mistsu, Suburu or Toyota. Hyundai is getting much better but I still do not like their exterior designs for the most part. The Sante Fe is nice though.
as usual you are not reading my posts. I clearly stated by neigbors had problems with their '98 avalon and my sister in law has had problems with her 2002 camry. Plus my current neighbor had problems with his 2002 I35.
aura doesnt have a 4 cylinder- this is widely known. Even a quick visit to the saturn website would've confirmed this for you. G6 and Malibu have four cylinders.
any buyer with commmon sense should know the Aura doesnt have a four before he gets to the dealer. In this age everyone should know something about the car they are going to test drive before they get there. Thats what the internet is for. The aura GL gets slightly better mileage than a four cylinder only family sedan if fuel economy is your only concern. In fact at this point we cant say the Aura does in fact have a four cylinder model.
(1) link verifying there are 70 listings of tranny problems at NHTSA.
(2) 70 listed problems indicate a "widespread" issue.
(3) Now the Tundra transmission is failing.
That's easy. You can do it yourself so I'll save gagrice the inconvenience.
#1 #2: Go to nhsta.gov
#3: Go to google.com
type tundra transmission into the search box
press enter
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I doubt the Toyota board is being overrun by people who hate Toyota products. My guess is that has something to with the fact that that board remains focused on Toyota. Unfortunately this forum has become the place for pro-import people to air their insults of GM products and tout the superiority of imports. I fail to see how the obsession of "putting GM people in their place" by the numerous import fanboys here is any reflection on GM or their future. Personally, I wouldnt wast time commenting on such inferior vehicles if I had no interest in them. Then again, one thing I've learned from being on edmunds for all these years is that import people cant stand the fact that their isnt a consensus on the crappiness of anything made and engineered in the US by a domestic automaker.
GM sells more midsize sedans than Toyota and Honda.
Who said that? Instead of making poor attempts at sarcastic humor perhaps you should familiarize yourself with GM's CURRENT offerings. The SRX, Outlook/Acadia/Enclave, Aura, STS, Vette, Yukon/Tahoe/Escalade, Lucerne, Vue, Silverado/Sierra, Sky/Solstice, etc. are all on sale now- you dont have to wait to get them. Gm has BETTER stuff coming, but that doesnt marginalize what is available today.
There are many reasons why many of us are pro-import and for my case that's because I am raised from a import dominant family. However, it is not unlikely if the quality of imports keep sliding and GM keep improving that I'll change my mind and defect to the dark side
tundra solutions
Search Tundra solutions--I read some posts that were linked from Edmunds and believe Tundra solutions was the site. But I may have saved links on another computer that I use not the one I'm on.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I want to see GM be great again but I'm not going to give them a pass and buy inferior products and pretend that all of their problems are due to some big "misperception" on the part of thousands of buyers.
http://www.aisin.com/product/automotive/drivetrain/ot.html
I will link it over to the Toyota thread for proper placement.
Maybe Ford will share with GM....
Re the 4 cylinder thread, "General Motors Corp. saw dramatic increases in four-cylinder sales in two of its most popular midsize models, the Pontiac G6 and Chevrolet Malibu, when comparing 2006 statistics to numbers through May of this year." link.
The upshot of the Fox story is that people will buy a 4 cylinder after they've had a chance to test drive one.
what inferior products are you talking about? No one here is asking you or anyone else to buy crappy products, we are merely talking about some of the good stuff that is out today. If you refuse to consider it based on past sins from the 80s, that is your choice. I never indicated that people have "no reason" to dislike GM products of old nor did I suggest that everyone who left GM did so with no provocation. I am saying that import owners are extremely closed minded when it comes to evaluating product because they base those evaluations on their opionions of the brands in question.
personally, I wasnt raised on GM products and was never taught to believe in them or that it was my patriotic duty to own one. Maybe thats why I did harbor the same ill will towards them that you and others do now. I'm sorry that this great American company that you put so much faith into let you down, but we are in 2007 now. Time move on and opinions change. Lets not forget that 30 years ago it was kind of taboo for many people to consider owning a foreign car, especially a Japanese one. Fast forward to 2007 and Toyota is now pretending its an all American company and many americans consider it heresy to buy domestic.