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It all sounds good, but the problem is that there is minimal acknowledgement of GM's current product mix. I keep reading "I want GM to make high quality vehicles again" and "I want GM to put out some decent products" as if they don't have squat available to the "intelligent" buyer. GM has about a dozen strong models for sale NOW. They need more subcompacts and compacts and they need to improve the small cars they already offer. As far as I can tell that is the one area where they need serious work. The rest of their lineup is actually decent except for the midsize pickups. The minivans and Rendevous are done after 2007MY, the lacrosse and STS are getting nice updates for 2008 plus the CTS, Malibu and G8 are on the way.
No it doesn't. I'll find the numbers later.
I said in an earlier post that I looked at an Aura but won't be buying one because it's really only suitable for 4 passengers and doesn't offer a 4 cyl.
Whenever I've bought, I've given them a shot but always find fatal flaws like this. The continue to misread the market year after year yet the GM apologists insist that everything is hunky dorry these days.
Are you saying that the additional 1.5 inches of hip room in the CamCords make them comfortable for 5 adsults? I have not been in a midsized car that was comfortable for 5 adults. The 4 cylinder requirement is legitimate.
But it was partially fair, a few GM products got smashed in the street battles (I recall a GTO being torn to pieces, and a SSR being obliterated). I also recall a couple of BMWs being destroyed.
Loren
(the sales reports don't break out coupe versions of the G6 and Accord, so I'll include the Monte Carlo to be fair)
Malibu- 67,499
Impala- 180,390
Monte Carlo- 11,313
G6- 69,955
Grand Prix- 46,455
LaCrosse- 23,121
CTS- 23,952
STS- 9,509
Aura- 27,229
9-3- 11,918
9-5- 2,266
Camry- 240,530
Avalon- 37,522
ES350- 40,398
GS...- 11,168
Accord- 182,346
TL- 31,035
RL- 3,482
GM= 473,607
Toyota= 329,618
Honda= 216,853
T+H= 546,471
The Toyota and Datsuns were doing OK as a start-up here in the 60's. The Honda's and Subaru's seemed like toys when introduced, but they improved with time. The same time period when GM went downhill. Thus a problem. If it had been but one decade, perhaps less damage would have been done. Now it is an uphill battle, with less money to work with for the turn-around. Still have no idea of the future, be it they have enough time and money for a slow re-start, or if they decide in a year or two to just go the bankruptcy route, then start anew. Overall car line-up is better, but won't be near completion for some years to come. Time can be your friend, but is more likely your enemy.
Loren
what midsize car today is suitable for 5 ADULTS? Not many that I know of. As for the 4, if that is your main criteria the Aura was never in the running. The Malibu will offer one on all three trims.
"The continue to misread the market year after year yet the GM apologists insist that everything is hunky dorry these days. "
yes thats why they dont offer a 4 on the Malibu or G6, or wait yes they do. They dont offer a 4 on ONE car that is the lowest volume seller out of the trio and you say they "misread" the market. I think offering it on the two models that sell over 100k a year is pretty smart. The Aura is a niche car that will never approach Camry or Accord or Impala.
"GM is on the offensive..." but you'd never know it from the posts of some, yourself not included, because it's always how awful some GM cars might have been or they thought they were or they like Toyota or Honda or BMW better.
Some do have a real interest in what GM has done to correct mistakes; but others just hope they get worse. If someone does that in other certain brand specific topics they are reminded by a host. I'm talking in the past mind you. But that didn't happen in GM discussions and it seemed to become a game to see how long it would take to keep them off topic and close them down either because of being off topic so much or because of the hostility.
So this topic is how GM has made a point of improving and meeting competition despite obstacles. It's not about someones 1986 Gran Am that had head gasket leaks because of poor maintenance of the cooling system or because of design or engineering problems and how they'll never buy another GM car and they'll always buy an XXXXmobile because it's the best car made. Instead this is about how they've improved.
You yourself said you drive two levels of Auras when you traded your PT and ended up with another brand. Interesting I thought. I have shopped Sonota/Azera much to Rockylee's surprise and I would compare the various GMs with them and other offerings. I might even try a Ford or two.
Has GM had success with their changes?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Loren
My Altima fits 5 no problem but then again, GM can't put a decent back seat in anything smaller than a Deville.
If Toyota or Honda ceased to exist the other would probably pick up 90% of those sales since to many people no other companies can match the BIG 2 of reliability dominance.
First of all if we subtracted all fleet sales GM would probably still be in the lead. If we only subtracted daily rental sales (from everyone) GM would definitely be in the lead. Thirdly, I addressed fleet sales earlier when I mentioned that Euro cars are sold as fleet vehicles in Europe. No one responded or countered which brings it back to what I have been saying since Day 1- fleet sales are only a liabiity when American cars make up those sales. No one here would insult MB for selling E classes to fleet customers in Germany. Try to come up with a new anti domestic argument because the whole "any car that is sold to fleets in appreciable numbers is crap" thing is getting old.
according to whom? JD Powers nor CR backs up that bit of hyperbole. Nice propoganda thought. Again, why exactly are you in this forum? You do nothing but glorify Toyota and HOnda and yet thise forum is about neither.
Every time I see a comment like this, I think of VW. They were called toys in the 60's with lawnmower engines. Then they sold a bunch. Then they went down the tubes more or less in NA.
GM looks like the tortoise that wins the race over that period in comparison.
"Honda and Toyota" = "6 plus 3"
"Honda or Toyota" = "either 6 or 3"
/Grammar pickiness
GM's midsizers aren't all worthless (CTS, Impala, Aura), just some of them (Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Malibu, 9-5).
I dont know about that, but what I do know is far more people prefer GM vehicles as opposed to Toyota vehicles. People who dont like Toyota dont care about Toyota vehicles to comment on them, I know I dont. I dont see why you are even here since you have made it clear that you have no interest in anything from GM.
For perspective, Ford and Toyota have about 16% share in the US. That means 84% of buyers would rather NOT drive a Toyota. That is hardly "dominance" or anything similar. When GM was dominant they had about 50% of the market- Toyota has a ways to go before hitting that number. Toyota hits 16% and the press is acting like they have taken over the US market. Their growth is impressive but all good things come to an end. It may be GM, it may be Nissan, it may be Hyundai, but someone is going to slow or even reverse Toyota's growth here sooner or later. Commentary I've seen from Toyota's execs tells me they have no respect for any of their competitors (OK, maybe HOnda) and do not take them seriously. the big 3 felt the same way in the 70s and we know how that ended up.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Monte carlo isnt made any more and GP is in its final year. I wouldnt even call it worthless since it has good performance and some nice features such as HUD, powerful engines, fold flat front seat and rear doors that open 90 degrees. the 9-5 is pretty old.
You forgot to add the 9-3 to that list. Malibu is being replaced in two months so its pointless to mention it now.
Everything I've read suggests the Impala SS is better sorted and has more rear headroom. Does the GP have anything unique other than the HUD?
Long term build quality and durability would have to be included and be excellent.
1st half MY07 retail sales
Malibu- 26,435
Impala- 68,565
Monte Carlo- 6,187
G6- 45,380
Grand Prix- 9,376
Aura- 20,888
LaCrosse- 17,475
CTS- 20,343
STS- 8,365
9-3- 9,090
9-5- 2,390
Camry- 177,431
Solara- 12,517
Avalon- 34,804
ES350- 36,997
GS...- 11,036
Accord- 155,556
TL- 29,497
RL- 3,874
GM= 234,494 retail, + 54,281 nonrental fleet
Toyota= 272,785 retail, + 7,657 nonrental fleet
Honda= 188,927 retail, + 1,993 nonrental fleet
what does any of that have to do with the G6 not being a flop as I stated earlier? Fleet sales make up the minority, not majority of G6 sales. The fusion, Altima and Sonata all have significent fleet sales. are they garbage as well due to fleet sales? Oh, thats right we can only bring up bad fleet sales when bashing GM products.
It hasnt been confirmed that G6 will be replaced by RWD, even if that is the case it still may be called G6. Current car is likely to be around until 2009 at the earliest.
then you will never be buying one. Why in the world would you expect GM to do things that Toyota cant even do when Toyota makes $13B a year in profits? No full line automaker is heads and shoulders above the competition. Not even Toyota. Toyota is way ahead in ONE aspect of the business, hybrids.....but that's it. They arent way ahead in hp, trannies, interiors, styling, or anything else. The most powerful Toyota V8 makes 382hp, the most powerful GM V8 makes 505hp. Toyota still doesnt make a legit sports car. Toyota's SUV mileage is average at best and the handling of 90% of Toyota's lineup is more Buick than BMW. The list goes on. Considering all that, its ridiculous to say "GM better make cars that are way better than everything else on the market and price them thousands less before I will even consider one".
If you want to see how far GM is come do nothing more than compare the new Highlander to the Acadia. The GM models stack up well in every regard, have one more gear, look better and actually have interiors that are on par with the Toyota. A few years ago a GM model would be an also ran by the time a new import competitor launched.
As for Toyota downsides...that's why I buy Lexus.
FWIW, the local Enterprise in my city rents C-class.
Troy Clarke, Pres. GM North America, Has Big Plans
you heard GM people "whining" about the competition? care to provide any examples? I think GM has a lot more respect for Toyota than vice versa. I often find that import people dismiss any mention of facts as "whining". For example GM does face serious disadvantages when it comes to labor and healthcare costs but any mention of that is usually dismissed by "expert" GM bashers. These are facts and they make GM's job that much tougher. GM is just competing against Toyota's genius, they are competing against the fact that the US isnt a hub for manufacturing anymore due to labor/healthcare costs. They are competing against the fact that Toyota and Honda have more congressman on their team than GM has on theirs. Its an uphill battle for sure.
"The only way to lure buyers like us is to produce cars/trucks/SUVs that will leave the competition in the dust."
Cant be done. The same way you dont see flat screen TVs, or cell phones or computers that leave the competition in the dust you dont see it in the auto industry. Aside from the Prius there have been very few breakthrough vehicles in recent years. The reason? The competition is so fierce and cars are becoming so similar. When the IS350 came out its 306hp was a huge deal and it had a big leg up on its peers. Within a year we had the 306hp G35 followed this year by the 300hp 335 to be followed by the 302hp CTS. You just cant be way ahead these days, not for long at least. again, Toyota can barely leap frog the competition so I see no way for GM to do so.
If you put like 4 sedans numbers together, maybe.
Even including the more-or-less full-sized Impala, that's over 50% fleet, so I wouldn't break my arm patting myself on the back about that.
I doubt the Toyota board is being overrun by people who hate Toyota products. My guess is that has something to with the fact that that board remains focused on Toyota. Unfortunately this forum has become the place for pro-import people to air their insults of GM products and tout the superiority of imports. I fail to see how the obsession of "putting GM people in their place" by the numerous import fanboys here is any reflection on GM or their future. Personally, I wouldnt wast time commenting on such inferior vehicles if I had no interest in them. Then again, one thing I've learned from being on edmunds for all these years is that import people cant stand the fact that their isnt a consensus on the crappiness of anything made and engineered in the US by a domestic automaker.
Last I checked, this isn't a GM-lovers only board. Plenty of people are here to throw stones at Toyota, which is fine. Just be prepared.
Some of the stuff GM is doing is working, and they are in the best position of the Big 3, but still will fall to around 20% share before leveling off.
DrFill
more excuses, forget about the model. My point was that MB, Audi and BMW sell vehicles for fleet use in Europe. In Europe these brands cover a wide price spectrum with base models having less equipment than you get in the US. They are not viewed the same and they are the "home team" vehicles which means you are going to see fleet versions of them as opposed to fleet Toyotas or HOndas or Chevys. My question still stands: are we to say German cars are inferior because they utilize fleet sales in Europe?
We'll need a reference for that 'fact'.
GM does not need to make cars that leave competition in the dust and sell them for less. That's not likely in the competitive marketplace. However, they are playing catch up. They need to either make cars that are better or sell them for less. Making a car that is rough;y as good and selling it for roughly the same price is not going to lure back customers who have left them. Why would it?
Well, like I said, there is just no reason for happy import owners to consider a GM unless it is better in many (if not all) aspects.
PS. It blew my mind to learn that the new CTS does not come with push-button start/off. For the record I think it has one of the best looking interior in the class though. Material also seems top notch but I'll reserve my judgment until I get a chance to feel it.
Better products such as the Silverado and Malibu still don't compare very well with top import offerings. They are playing catch-up right out of the box. That doesn't enhance the company's image.
GM is in a tough spot, since when they had a cvaptive market, they dropped the ball, now the market has left them and they are struggling to regain traction.
DrFill
Loren
I agree with you.
DrFill
Even the toyota lovers don't buy standard Toyota offerings? I hope it's not a Lexus based on the Camry if you're avoiding the Camry... :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,