"What's wrong with a Tundra? It is a Toyota and this is a GM thread. So the superiority of the GM truck will be shouted out loud for all the GM bashers to hear. "
actually, unlike import fanboys most regulars here can actually give an objective evaluation of vehicles from manufacturers they dont like. I find that to be a key difference between the people who want GM to succeed and the GM bashing majority that visits this thread. I recently commented on the Tundra's positive features so you are completely wrong in saying there is unjustified Tundra bashing going on here. The Tundra has a great powertrain (optional) and plenty of space. It is NOT however clearly superior to the GM trucks. THey are actually pretty close to even from a function perspective but the GM trucks have a better quality interior and superior build quality.
"But GM definitely hears footsteps, and is looking over it's shoulder already! What are they so worried about anyway?
Heavy is the head of he who wears the throne. "
um, Toyota is #1. How can GM be looking over its shoulder when its trailing Toyota?
BTW, in case you missed it the GM 6L V8 makes only 14hp less and 26 lb-ft less than the big Toyota V8- thats not exactly a huge difference. WHat GM needs is the 6 speed in every truck with the 6L engine.
I happen to like the 5.3L much better than the 6.2 or 6.0L engines. It is solid trouble free with PLENTY of power to pull the rated towing capacity. All the bigger engine does is suck more gas. Which is a good reason to buy a Chevy 5.3L over the Toyota 5.7L. That is about $400 per year more in gas for the average Tundra driver. I would like to see the 6 speed transmission. Hopefully it is better tested than the one in the Tundra.
PS My current 5.3L GMC has more power than my last 4 GM trucks with the 5.7L engine. Size is not the end all.
The emergency brake always concerned me when it was in the console and one had to pull up and back on it while heading toward something you really don't want to hit. You're usually wanting to brace against the forward movement so pushing on a foot brake is much better.
Might want to find a big open empty parking lot on a Sunday morning and practice stopping with a foot pedal emergency brake. Start out at slower speeds and see how difficult it might be to try to modulate and avoid a sideways skid. These are nowhere as good as a hand brake that allows easy modulation of amount of braking.
If there is something taken off for Toyo it will be added right back on with an additional sticker for nearly $1000 and additional dealer fees for region and local dealer added after a price is agreed on by the customer unless they specificy out-the-door.
This kinda thing only happens at your local Toyota dealer. Believe that!
I happen to like the 5.3L much better than the 6.2 or 6.0L engines. It is solid trouble free with PLENTY of power to pull the rated towing capacity. All the bigger engine does is suck more gas. Which is a good reason to buy a Chevy 5.3L over the Toyota 5.7L. That is about $400 per year more in gas for the average Tundra driver. I would like to see the 6 speed transmission. Hopefully it is better tested than the one in the Tundra.
The 5.3 might be plenty for most buyers, but it will lose about a ton in towing to the Tundra 5.7, plus the two gears.
Hopefully, Toyota will replace the 4.7 with a similar engine to the 5.3 by 2010.
happen to like the 5.3L much better than the 6.2 or 6.0L engines
Maybe for fuel economy. I find the 5.3 in my burb to be short on power when towing my boat. It's fine on flat land, but get into the hill and it runs out of steam quick. I have friends with bigger boats towing with Denali's with a 6.0L and Armada's with Nissan's 5.6 and they clearly out pull me in the hills, not even close.
I do have the 3.73 gears, but I think a big part of the problem is the gearing. To much of a ratio gap between 2&3rd gear.
You can't tell me for a minute you won't notice the extra 60ft-lbs of torque offered with the 6.2L.
It's very noticable with the Armada's I've driven. It may have issues, but Nissan's 5.6v8 is by far the best gas truck engine I've sampled. Amazing off idle torque, feels like a big block. Not to mention 385ft-lbs of torque at 3400rpm, right where you need it when towing. Listening to my 5.3 scream at 4000+rpm for extended periods while climbing big hills gets old quick.
That said, I agree the 5.3 is reliable. It's basically the only part of my Suburban that I haven't had trouble with. I do get a bit of piston slap on cold mornings, but oh well.
You can't tell me for a minute you won't notice the extra 60ft-lbs of torque offered with the 6.2L.
Nothing a smaller diesel engine could not handle, using a lot less fuel. If I was towing a big trailer I would not buy a gas engine. I was sad to see GM leave the diesel option off the later Suburbans. I have high hopes for GMs new diesel engine. I would buy another Suburban or Tahoe with that engine. I also agree there is too much space between 2nd and 3rd gear in the 4 speed automatic. The 6 speed should become standard.
Nothing a smaller diesel engine could not handle, using a lot less fuel. If I was towing a big trailer I would not buy a gas engine. I was sad to see GM leave the diesel option off the later Suburbans. I have high hopes for GMs new diesel engine. I would buy another Suburban or Tahoe with that engine. I also agree there is too much space between 2nd and 3rd gear in the 4 speed automatic. The 6 speed should become standard.
I agree 100%. I'd love to have medium displacement turbo diesel in my Suburban. Since the wife and I have been discussing getting a bigger/heavier boat, I may end up replacing it with a 3/4 ton 4 door pickup. Diesel of course.
The 6speed should be in the Tahoe/Suburban now. It would make a world of difference.
"Only if there are buyer incentives would that happen for HOToy in this area. For HOnda if they are dealer incentives the unknowing customer most likely won't see them."
We have been through this already do GM dealers pass on the dealer discounts to their customers without the customers themselves having knowlege or asking about it? I heavily doubt they do. In my opinion, its up to the customer to do his or her proper research and or ask the dealer about dealer discounts.
"If there is something taken off for Toyo it will be added right back on with an additional sticker for nearly $1000 and additional dealer fees for region and local dealer added after a price is agreed on by the customer unless they specificy out-the-door. I don't see ADM stickers on GMs in this area."
I don;t know how Toyota runs their dealers with tacking on dealer fees for regional and local dealer fees. I have bought have been inside a Toyota dealer but they also sell Mazda and used to sell Dodge as well and I was there to buy the Mazda. Anyways, if you don;t like the dealer or regional fees that are added on after the sale or negotiation is done for the car than don;t buy the car. Afterall you have to sign the bill of lading for the sale for the info of everything of that car having to do to with $$$ wise.
My wife just had her 06 Ford 500 company car replaced with an 07 GrandPrix. What a piece of crap.
It is by far the most uncomfortable vehicle I've been in since my wife's '92 Saturn SL2. The front seats kill both mine and my wife's back, the dash materials are extremely cheap looks like it was melted from a chocolate bar. The rear seating is basically nonexistent for anyone over the age of like 12. It rides terrible, yet doesn't handle well either. It's obvious the roots of the GrandPrix go back a long time. It feels like a car from a decade or so ago. With 5000 miles on the clock it already has a dash rattles. The fit and finish is horrible. Lots of variation in panel gaps. I can't believe anyone would buy one of these cars. I'd bet many go to fleet.
Well the interior materials used the current Grand Prix would have been good in a 1993-1997 model year car. As a matter fact I think the G6 has better interior fit and finish than than its Grand Prix counterpart.
the first time I sat in an '04 Grand Prix, I was actually impressed with the interior, because it seemed like a huge leap from the '97-03 style! There was still a lot of plastic, but it seemed to fit much better than before. Now I only sat in the car for about 5 minutes, which won't give an indication of how good of a long distance car it would be, but I found the front seat to be fine, with regards to room at least. Still, you can have a roomy seat that's not comfortable.
The back seat was a whole different story, though. Now I've always found the W-body to be a bit tight in the back, but the '04 GP took it to a whole new level. Traditionally, coupes tend to have a tighter back seat than sedans. But with the '04 GP, it seemed like they just tried to come up with one design to sort of split the difference between the two. Kind of like a 4-door coupe.
I agree, the G6 seems like a much better car in most respects, although I imagine the GP with the V-8 could be kinda fun.
In a truck? That sounds good for a big grunty sports car, but it makes me glad I have my old GMC: 300 ft-lbs at 1600 rpm.
Well you haven't looked at GMs torque numbers for their V8truck engines lately then. They all have torque peaks over 4000rpm. Granted, most v8s have a fairly flat torque curve, so quite a bit of torque is still available at low rpm.
I just looked up the 5.3L. It has 340ft-lbs @ 4200rpm, and it hits 300ft-lbs of torque around 2000rpm.
I find it ironic that all of the OHC truck v8's from Ford, Toyo, and Nissan, have torque peaks at lower rpm than the pushrod engines from GM and Dodge.
Does Nissan show a torque/power curve for the 5.6 V-8 anywhere on the web? I know GM shows the curves for their engines at www.gmpowertrain.com. It would be interesting to compare them and see how much power and torque each engine puts out at a given rpm.
I remember a couple years back, MT or C&D did a comparison test of the Nissan Titan, Dodge Ram Hemi, Tundra with the 4.7, Silverado with, I think, a 5.3, and the F150 with a 5.4 I think. The Titan blew them all away in acceleration with a 0-60 time of something like 7.0 seconds. I think the Ram came in at 7.7, and I forget the rest, but they were definitely slower.
Of course, just because something's fast from 0-60 doesn't mean it's a good heavy-duty hauler.
I've not seen a true hp/torque curve on Nissan's v8, but I know a few mags have done some rear wheel dinos on them and they are stout. Either Nissan under rates them, or they found a way to lose very little power from the flywheel to the rear wheels.
Anyway, trailerboats mag (which I subscribe), did a tow test around 7000lbs (i belive) between the Silverado w/6.0L, Titan, Tundra (5.7), Ram (5.7hemi), and F150 with (5.4). The Titan and Tundra walked away from all of them 0-60 towing and non towing. They also compared hill climbing, once again the Titan and Tundra won handily with the Titan having the best pulling power and the Tundra winning the overall comparison. They said it handled the load overall like a 3/4ton would. This coming from a mag that generally always recommends the domestics.
I want to know more about the "BLACK TURBO" (Viggen ?) high performance model. Rumor has it 320+ horsepower. I'd like to see Saab, also throw in some Magneride. :shades: Regardless this is the model I'd want to own as it will be the best all around car I could ever possibly own. Safe, Lighting Fast, All Weather Capability, Efficient, Comfortable, Quiet, and of course Gadgetlogy.
The bottom line is GM, is on a path of recovery. The Delphi, deal is done and in a few years the turn around plan should be close to being complete. They are doing a good job of model distinguishment. Sure they could do a better job but I like the direction they are headed for the most part. It appears Saab's make over will be complete in a few years along with Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet. Saturn is only missing the new Astra, I think ?
Well drop me a line on any more breaking news on my car company Saab
The last generation Tundra drove and rode like a car, and was as quiet as any luxury car!
I didn't care for the driving position of the last-gen Tundra. It was like they took the seats out of some little car like a Corolla or Echo, and mounted them in the truck. They were low, unsupportive, and legroom was pretty bad. Once the Tacoma "grew up", I thought it pretty much made the Tundra obsolete, although I guess offering a V-8 and an 8-foot bed were still definite advantages of the Tundra. The Tacoma's seating position is much better, although it does leave you kind of smashed against the door panel, and the steering wheel is off-center from the seat.
The New Tundra's a lot more comfy IMO, but they really junked up the interior. It seems more on par with the Dodge Ram or Nissan Tundra, or the previous-gen Silverado/Sierra. Now being stark and plasticky is one thing...after all, it is a TRUCK. But that doesn't mean it has to look like a toddler could pull it all apart!
GM's sales for their truck are actually falling, and they have the best interior in the segment.
Nobody was writing Toyota love letters when they had the most car-like interior last year.
The 800's interior was beyond cheap-and-cheezy, and Gm couldn't sell enough of them! :confuse:
Truck buyers don't care about the interior. They want heart. They want a truck they believe will get the job done. And they have brand equity.
Interiors, nobody cares. Toyota's interior isn't as soft and cuddly as before, and sales are still rising. Nobody cares. It's better than the last Silvy, which is all I ask for.
I don't think GM fits the definition of "offensive". If anything they are retreating. In two years Toyota will probably sell more than a million vehicles more than GM. In fact this is how Toyota looks compare to GM
Well I guess size can matter. In the case of business, it is profit which matters. Let Toyota take the number one position. I am sure Honda is more than happy over the years being a smaller fish, yet profitable, energetic, while building many different products the best they can. GM needs to focus on staying afloat and satisfying customers. Loren
Actually I was refering to both size and profit. Toyota already took the No.1 position ( in both size and profit). That is something GM has yet to replicate
That is one of my favorite poster. Can you believe my neighbor has both a Great Dane and a Chiwuawua. The two of them make a great couple. The Dane is a female and the Chi is a male.
I perhaps wasn't clear in the post. While Toyota is in a favored position of number one and is making some handsome profits, it is not important to GM as this moment in time, or into the future. Not sure what you mean by, " that is something GM has yet to replicate." They surely was the number one in size and profit some years back. Now Toyota is doing better, no doubt. Both have now been in such a position. It is no longer the issue. Actually it should be the least of their worries. A strong balance sheet, good product, right product, ability to adapt quickly to changes, labor which can adapt to current crisis, having good public relations, dealerships which will support the customer, and have knowledgeable staffing, advertising which grabs the attention of customers, management which can communicate a strong message for a changing and much improved company, a sense of style, and the ability to listen to a customers needs, are a few things which come to mind.
The hardest thing to do right now is the downsizing. While most smaller companies can simply reduce the numbers of employees and close shops as needed, the auto industry, with unions and commitments is pretty much going to have one slow a process in this respect. I do hope GM can buy the time needed. Not so sure the economy holds for the next couple of years. If not, I suspect GM goes to a plan B. Loren
Over the last three Carlisle shows, (Ford, GM, Chrysler) we got to check out the trucks from all three makes. Of all of those, the Silverado seemed the nicest and the Dodge the worst. Shame, because I like the Dodge exterior, but the interior seems several generations behind the others.
" Truck buyers don't care about the interior. They want heart. They want a truck they believe will get the job done. And they have brand equity.
Interiors, nobody cares. Toyota's interior isn't as soft and cuddly as before, and sales are still rising. Nobody cares. It's better than the last Silvy, which is all I ask for."
Since the Tundra came up short on the interior you have determined that nobody cares about ruck interiors. Got it. The old Silverado sold because its a popular model and it always sells plus GM had great incentives on an old truck. The GM trucks sales are down compared to the incentive laden 2006 models but they are still way ahead of Toyota pickup sales. The old Tundra interior wasnt all that great, it just was very car-like.
I saw an ad this morning with $7000 on Tundra truck AND some low finance rate. Must be a fire sale! The things aren't moving.
"It's terrible when a company has to lower the price like that." "They should have priced them correctly to begin with." "They just aren't as good as the competition or they wouldn't have to lower the price back to what they're worth."
LOL! You are on target again. All of the normal harsh comments regarding incentives seem to be hard to find when discussing the Tundra. GM would be crucified for offering such heavy incentives on new product. When Toyota piles on the cash it becomes "Toyota is just being aggressive to gain marketshare in a tough segment".
My local paper has ads for 4Runners with $4800 off, Highlander for $4500 off, Camrys for $1900 off and Siennas for $4000 off MSRP. I think I saw Tundra discounts of $6000 or so last Sunday. Any wonder why Toyota is racking up huge sales gains? Sure the Prius is part of it, but the rebates and discounting are another part. I just dont understand how Edmunds gets these low average incentive rates on imports. Based on what I see there is no way Toyota is only discounting vehicles by $1000 or less on average as Edmunds seems to suggest. I guess in CA they are selling for MSRP so that balances the other regions.
Interesting video. Looks like it was being shown at some type of Ford marketing/product info meeting. Don't know if that could be considered unbiased, but interesting non the less.
It looks like it was fairly done. It's certainly less biased than the utube videos of a Tundra with limited slip differential/locked differential pulling 150s and Silverados without a locking differential or the Tundra commercials that somehow are getting put up on there.
Funny how Toyota more and more seems to have lots of PR at work in the media and internet.
The only area that I found to be iffy was on how well each truck tracked true. It would be awful easy for the driver to effect how well each truck stayed straight on a washboard type surface that was shown.
That said, my Suburban is terrible on those types of surfaces. I had a gravel road near our old subdivision that had severe washboard surfaces. I couldn't drive the burb over 30 w/o the suspesion being unable to keep the wheels undercontrol, thus it would go all over the road. The Nissan Pathfinder I still had at the time could go down the same road over 40mph and I could still drive straight with one hand on the wheel.
A strong balance sheet, good product, right product, ability to adapt quickly to changes, labor which can adapt to current crisis, having good public relations, dealerships which will support the customer, and have knowledgeable staffing, advertising which grabs the attention of customers, management which can communicate a strong message for a changing and much improved company, a sense of style, and the ability to listen to a customers needs.....
That is something GM has yet to replicate.
GM never watched their P's and Q's, NOW they are ready to go back to basics, end "Planned Obsolescence", and start caring what the customer thinks. When GM loses enough money, then they start caring about their customers.
Toyota's incentive record averages out their entire lineup, not just Tundra. Toyota can be sky high on Tundra incentives because their other vehicles are almoist incentive free!
The domestics have to give away most of their fleet, hence the 2X-3X higher incetive average.
Not that I need to tell you about GM fire sales, since they invented 0%. GM should've gotten a patent, so no one else could give their vehicles away.
Glad it wasn't me involved in the last eight posts about the Tundra. Only goes to prove my point that it is the posters which support everything GM is doing which are very fixed on what Toyota is doing. They do multiple posts about Toyota, then when someone comments or disagrees, they say that this is conversation about GM and not Toyota -- go figure.
GM needs product, performance of execution, people skills, but they don't need to build a Toyota anything. When people bought and loved their American cars, they were a much different car than the rest. They drove the long distance highways and freeways, were more solid, had style which some preferred over the competition over the pond, could be repaired for less money and with ease, and were advancing each year with innovations. The car for America over time became to mirror Europe, then Japan makes. Time to set the style trends again, and add in some new innovations. After trying to make a VW, then all these Japan makes, or Euro styling, perhaps a New American car(s) would be most refreshing. The Corvette seems to sell. I realize Ford made a lot of money off the Taurus, which was a knock-off design of the Audi, and Toyota seems to be using the Bangle butt now, but perhaps in this era, after decades of knock-offs, some superior design works, which GM's Harley Earl would have been proud of, are now much in need. Let the rest copy and design the bland.
"Toyota's incentive record averages out their entire lineup, not just Tundra. Toyota can be sky high on Tundra incentives because their other vehicles are almoist incentive free!
The domestics have to give away most of their fleet, hence the 2X-3X higher incetive average.
Not that I need to tell you about GM fire sales, since they invented 0%. GM should've gotten a patent, so no one else could give their vehicles away."
Very few TOyota's are incentive free. I really dont understand how you can make such erroneous statements. Even the Prius has financing incentives. All Toyota trucks, SUVs and minivans have decent Toyota rebates on them. Dealers are adding a few thousand more.
Go to gmbuypower.com and check GM incentives before commenting further. Most GM vehicles have either low financing for 36 months or some cash back offer. VEry few have 0% for more than 36 months.
One reason (no one ever mentions this) that domestics have higher incentive averages is that they have a higher proportion of their sales from trucks and trucks cost more and have the largest incentives right now. Look at Ford and Dodge, their trucks are old and have huge incentives AND they are their respective brand's biggest sellers.
"Glad it wasn't me involved in the last eight posts about the Tundra. Only goes to prove my point that it is the posters which support everything GM is doing which are very fixed on what Toyota is doing. They do multiple posts about Toyota, then when someone comments or disagrees, they say that this is conversation about GM and not Toyota -- go figure."
a) people here do not defend everything GM does or makes, nor has anyone here ever suggested that GM cant improve significantly. b) no one has a problem with the name Toyota being mentioned, but we do get tired of people visiting a GM forum to talk about how they have had bad experiences with GM products and now love Hondas/Toyotas.
I know, for example, many Toyota vehicles such high volume cars as Avalon, FJ Cruiser, Rav4, Prius, and Camry have NO incentives, other than a lease offer, in regions of the country. NO Rate. NO cash back. $0.
$0 on several cars keeps the incentive average pretty low.
Don't worry about 1487. He is just trying those 1984 methods, if ya know what that means
Oh well, I doesn't matter.
GM, on the Saturn ad now states, "Rethink American." You know, in a way I have to agree with the concept of American car, but it should go beyond the SUV and Truck classes. Corvette is an example I will use again. It looks like an American sports car. It has attitude. While it may be easier to look to Euro or Japan styles for car designs, I am hoping to see some uniquely American cars coming from the Big Three. Must say the Chrysler 300, love it or leave it, is an eye catcher. But then again, the Cadillac CTS is too. Will they dial out the uniqueness though over the years. Will it lose edge? Will the front become a corporate Caddy one? And what of the new Corvette? How many here prefer to look to the previous models? Do you see a bit of say an NSX now? I kinda like the trimming of size. Got mixed feelings about the look. Performance seems better than ever. The HP race seems silly to me, though it is something which has to be done. Loren
The incentives from Prius came from the taxpayer early on. For what reason I've never figured out but they wasted out tax money on those. Maybe it was to help the "smug alert" folks as the Simpsons would say.
Comments
actually, unlike import fanboys most regulars here can actually give an objective evaluation of vehicles from manufacturers they dont like. I find that to be a key difference between the people who want GM to succeed and the GM bashing majority that visits this thread. I recently commented on the Tundra's positive features so you are completely wrong in saying there is unjustified Tundra bashing going on here. The Tundra has a great powertrain (optional) and plenty of space. It is NOT however clearly superior to the GM trucks. THey are actually pretty close to even from a function perspective but the GM trucks have a better quality interior and superior build quality.
Heavy is the head of he who wears the throne. "
um, Toyota is #1. How can GM be looking over its shoulder when its trailing Toyota?
BTW, in case you missed it the GM 6L V8 makes only 14hp less and 26 lb-ft less than the big Toyota V8- thats not exactly a huge difference. WHat GM needs is the 6 speed in every truck with the 6L engine.
Actually it needs the 6 speed with every truck engine. My Burb 5.3 would tow much better if it had a few extra cogs.
I happen to like the 5.3L much better than the 6.2 or 6.0L engines. It is solid trouble free with PLENTY of power to pull the rated towing capacity. All the bigger engine does is suck more gas. Which is a good reason to buy a Chevy 5.3L over the Toyota 5.7L. That is about $400 per year more in gas for the average Tundra driver. I would like to see the 6 speed transmission. Hopefully it is better tested than the one in the Tundra.
PS
My current 5.3L GMC has more power than my last 4 GM trucks with the 5.7L engine. Size is not the end all.
Might want to find a big open empty parking lot on a Sunday morning and practice stopping with a foot pedal emergency brake. Start out at slower speeds and see how difficult it might be to try to modulate and avoid a sideways skid. These are nowhere as good as a hand brake that allows easy modulation of amount of braking.
This kinda thing only happens at your local Toyota dealer. Believe that!
DrFill
The 5.3 might be plenty for most buyers, but it will lose about a ton in towing to the Tundra 5.7, plus the two gears.
Hopefully, Toyota will replace the 4.7 with a similar engine to the 5.3 by 2010.
DrFill
Maybe for fuel economy. I find the 5.3 in my burb to be short on power when towing my boat. It's fine on flat land, but get into the hill and it runs out of steam quick. I have friends with bigger boats towing with Denali's with a 6.0L and Armada's with Nissan's 5.6 and they clearly out pull me in the hills, not even close.
I do have the 3.73 gears, but I think a big part of the problem is the gearing. To much of a ratio gap between 2&3rd gear.
You can't tell me for a minute you won't notice the extra 60ft-lbs of torque offered with the 6.2L.
It's very noticable with the Armada's I've driven. It may have issues, but Nissan's 5.6v8 is by far the best gas truck engine I've sampled. Amazing off idle torque, feels like a big block. Not to mention 385ft-lbs of torque at 3400rpm, right where you need it when towing. Listening to my 5.3 scream at 4000+rpm for extended periods while climbing big hills gets old quick.
That said, I agree the 5.3 is reliable. It's basically the only part of my Suburban that I haven't had trouble with. I do get a bit of piston slap on cold mornings, but oh well.
DrFill
Nothing a smaller diesel engine could not handle, using a lot less fuel. If I was towing a big trailer I would not buy a gas engine. I was sad to see GM leave the diesel option off the later Suburbans. I have high hopes for GMs new diesel engine. I would buy another Suburban or Tahoe with that engine. I also agree there is too much space between 2nd and 3rd gear in the 4 speed automatic. The 6 speed should become standard.
steve_, "Auto Parts Bargains and Coupons" #134, 12 Jul 2007 5:42 am
I agree 100%. I'd love to have medium displacement turbo diesel in my Suburban. Since the wife and I have been discussing getting a bigger/heavier boat, I may end up replacing it with a 3/4 ton 4 door pickup. Diesel of course.
The 6speed should be in the Tahoe/Suburban now. It would make a world of difference.
In a truck? That sounds good for a big grunty sports car, but it makes me glad I have my old GMC: 300 ft-lbs at 1600 rpm.
We have been through this already do GM dealers pass on the dealer discounts to their customers without the customers themselves having knowlege or asking about it? I heavily doubt they do. In my opinion, its up to the customer to do his or her proper research and or ask the dealer about dealer discounts.
"If there is something taken off for Toyo it will be added right back on with an additional sticker for nearly $1000 and additional dealer fees for region and local dealer added after a price is agreed on by the customer unless they specificy out-the-door. I don't see ADM stickers on GMs in this area."
I don;t know how Toyota runs their dealers with tacking on dealer fees for regional and local dealer fees. I have bought have been inside a Toyota dealer but they also sell Mazda and used to sell Dodge as well and I was there to buy the Mazda. Anyways, if you don;t like the dealer or regional fees that are added on after the sale or negotiation is done for the car than don;t buy the car. Afterall you have to sign the bill of lading for the sale for the info of everything of that car having to do to with $$$ wise.
It is by far the most uncomfortable vehicle I've been in since my wife's '92 Saturn SL2. The front seats kill both mine and my wife's back, the dash materials are extremely cheap looks like it was melted from a chocolate bar. The rear seating is basically nonexistent for anyone over the age of like 12. It rides terrible, yet doesn't handle well either. It's obvious the roots of the GrandPrix go back a long time. It feels like a car from a decade or so ago. With 5000 miles on the clock it already has a dash rattles. The fit and finish is horrible. Lots of variation in panel gaps. I can't believe anyone would buy one of these cars. I'd bet many go to fleet.
Well the interior materials used the current Grand Prix would have been good in a 1993-1997 model year car. As a matter fact I think the G6 has better interior fit and finish than than its Grand Prix counterpart.
Yeah the Grand Prix sells to like 70% fleet.
The back seat was a whole different story, though. Now I've always found the W-body to be a bit tight in the back, but the '04 GP took it to a whole new level. Traditionally, coupes tend to have a tighter back seat than sedans. But with the '04 GP, it seemed like they just tried to come up with one design to sort of split the difference between the two. Kind of like a 4-door coupe.
I agree, the G6 seems like a much better car in most respects, although I imagine the GP with the V-8 could be kinda fun.
In a truck? That sounds good for a big grunty sports car, but it makes me glad I have my old GMC: 300 ft-lbs at 1600 rpm.
Well you haven't looked at GMs torque numbers for their V8truck engines lately then. They all have torque peaks over 4000rpm. Granted, most v8s have a fairly flat torque curve, so quite a bit of torque is still available at low rpm.
I just looked up the 5.3L. It has 340ft-lbs @ 4200rpm, and it hits 300ft-lbs of torque around 2000rpm.
I find it ironic that all of the OHC truck v8's from Ford, Toyo, and Nissan, have torque peaks at lower rpm than the pushrod engines from GM and Dodge.
I remember a couple years back, MT or C&D did a comparison test of the Nissan Titan, Dodge Ram Hemi, Tundra with the 4.7, Silverado with, I think, a 5.3, and the F150 with a 5.4 I think. The Titan blew them all away in acceleration with a 0-60 time of something like 7.0 seconds. I think the Ram came in at 7.7, and I forget the rest, but they were definitely slower.
Of course, just because something's fast from 0-60 doesn't mean it's a good heavy-duty hauler.
Anyway, trailerboats mag (which I subscribe), did a tow test around 7000lbs (i belive) between the Silverado w/6.0L, Titan, Tundra (5.7), Ram (5.7hemi), and F150 with (5.4). The Titan and Tundra walked away from all of them 0-60 towing and non towing. They also compared hill climbing, once again the Titan and Tundra won handily with the Titan having the best pulling power and the Tundra winning the overall comparison. They said it handled the load overall like a 3/4ton would. This coming from a mag that generally always recommends the domestics.
I wanted to say hello to a old pal "dieselone"and of course hello to all.
I had to see if any info from edmunds was out on my dream car the 2008 Saab 9-3 XWD (Cross All-Wheel Drive) and boy their was a report to my surprise.
First Drive: 2008 Saab 9-3 Aero XWD
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=121626?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..2.*#17
A note to the edmunds.com staff:
I want to know more about the "BLACK TURBO" (Viggen ?) high performance model.
The bottom line is GM, is on a path of recovery. The Delphi, deal is done and in a few years the turn around plan should be close to being complete. They are doing a good job of model distinguishment. Sure they could do a better job but I like the direction they are headed for the most part. It appears Saab's make over will be complete in a few years along with Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet. Saturn is only missing the new Astra, I think ?
Well drop me a line on any more breaking news on my car company Saab
Later,
Rocky
-Rocky
I didn't care for the driving position of the last-gen Tundra. It was like they took the seats out of some little car like a Corolla or Echo, and mounted them in the truck. They were low, unsupportive, and legroom was pretty bad. Once the Tacoma "grew up", I thought it pretty much made the Tundra obsolete, although I guess offering a V-8 and an 8-foot bed were still definite advantages of the Tundra. The Tacoma's seating position is much better, although it does leave you kind of smashed against the door panel, and the steering wheel is off-center from the seat.
The New Tundra's a lot more comfy IMO, but they really junked up the interior. It seems more on par with the Dodge Ram or Nissan Tundra, or the previous-gen Silverado/Sierra. Now being stark and plasticky is one thing...after all, it is a TRUCK. But that doesn't mean it has to look like a toddler could pull it all apart!
Nobody was writing Toyota love letters when they had the most car-like interior last year.
The 800's interior was beyond cheap-and-cheezy, and Gm couldn't sell enough of them! :confuse:
Truck buyers don't care about the interior. They want heart. They want a truck they believe will get the job done. And they have brand equity.
Interiors, nobody cares. Toyota's interior isn't as soft and cuddly as before, and sales are still rising. Nobody cares. It's better than the last Silvy, which is all I ask for.
DrFill
Loren
The hardest thing to do right now is the downsizing. While most smaller companies can simply reduce the numbers of employees and close shops as needed, the auto industry, with unions and commitments is pretty much going to have one slow a process in this respect. I do hope GM can buy the time needed. Not so sure the economy holds for the next couple of years. If not, I suspect GM goes to a plan B.
Loren
Interiors, nobody cares. Toyota's interior isn't as soft and cuddly as before, and sales are still rising. Nobody cares. It's better than the last Silvy, which is all I ask for."
Since the Tundra came up short on the interior you have determined that nobody cares about ruck interiors. Got it. The old Silverado sold because its a popular model and it always sells plus GM had great incentives on an old truck. The GM trucks sales are down compared to the incentive laden 2006 models but they are still way ahead of Toyota pickup sales. The old Tundra interior wasnt all that great, it just was very car-like.
AND some low finance rate. Must be a fire sale! The things aren't moving.
"It's terrible when a company has to lower the price like that."
"They should have priced them correctly to begin with."
"They just aren't as good as the competition or they wouldn't have to lower the price back to what they're worth."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My local paper has ads for 4Runners with $4800 off, Highlander for $4500 off, Camrys for $1900 off and Siennas for $4000 off MSRP. I think I saw Tundra discounts of $6000 or so last Sunday. Any wonder why Toyota is racking up huge sales gains? Sure the Prius is part of it, but the rebates and discounting are another part. I just dont understand how Edmunds gets these low average incentive rates on imports. Based on what I see there is no way Toyota is only discounting vehicles by $1000 or less on average as Edmunds seems to suggest. I guess in CA they are selling for MSRP so that balances the other regions.
Silverado/F150/Tunda bed bounce
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Funny how Toyota more and more seems to have lots of PR at work in the media and internet.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That said, my Suburban is terrible on those types of surfaces. I had a gravel road near our old subdivision that had severe washboard surfaces. I couldn't drive the burb over 30 w/o the suspesion being unable to keep the wheels undercontrol, thus it would go all over the road. The Nissan Pathfinder I still had at the time could go down the same road over 40mph and I could still drive straight with one hand on the wheel.
Well Toyota has no shortage of cash. They seem to be relentless in their marketing.
That is something GM has yet to replicate.
GM never watched their P's and Q's, NOW they are ready to go back to basics, end "Planned Obsolescence", and start caring what the customer thinks. When GM loses enough money, then they start caring about their customers.
Call it a 21st Century initiative.
DrFill
The domestics have to give away most of their fleet, hence the 2X-3X higher incetive average.
Not that I need to tell you about GM fire sales, since they invented 0%. GM should've gotten a patent, so no one else could give their vehicles away.
DrFill
GM needs product, performance of execution, people skills, but they don't need to build a Toyota anything. When people bought and loved their American cars, they were a much different car than the rest. They drove the long distance highways and freeways, were more solid, had style which some preferred over the competition over the pond, could be repaired for less money and with ease, and were advancing each year with innovations. The car for America over time became to mirror Europe, then Japan makes. Time to set the style trends again, and add in some new innovations. After trying to make a VW, then all these Japan makes, or Euro styling, perhaps a New American car(s) would be most refreshing. The Corvette seems to sell. I realize Ford made a lot of money off the Taurus, which was a knock-off design of the Audi, and Toyota seems to be using the Bangle butt now, but perhaps in this era, after decades of knock-offs, some superior design works, which GM's Harley Earl would have been proud of, are now much in need. Let the rest copy and design the bland.
Just trying to be helpful,
Loren
The domestics have to give away most of their fleet, hence the 2X-3X higher incetive average.
Not that I need to tell you about GM fire sales, since they invented 0%. GM should've gotten a patent, so no one else could give their vehicles away."
Very few TOyota's are incentive free. I really dont understand how you can make such erroneous statements. Even the Prius has financing incentives. All Toyota trucks, SUVs and minivans have decent Toyota rebates on them. Dealers are adding a few thousand more.
Go to gmbuypower.com and check GM incentives before commenting further. Most GM vehicles have either low financing for 36 months or some cash back offer. VEry few have 0% for more than 36 months.
One reason (no one ever mentions this) that domestics have higher incentive averages is that they have a higher proportion of their sales from trucks and trucks cost more and have the largest incentives right now. Look at Ford and Dodge, their trucks are old and have huge incentives AND they are their respective brand's biggest sellers.
a) people here do not defend everything GM does or makes, nor has anyone here ever suggested that GM cant improve significantly.
b) no one has a problem with the name Toyota being mentioned, but we do get tired of people visiting a GM forum to talk about how they have had bad experiences with GM products and now love Hondas/Toyotas.
$0 on several cars keeps the incentive average pretty low.
Never sold a Prius for less than sticker.
DrFill
There's your problem! Instead of resisting and getting "tired" of hearing about, why not just accept it, and live life with your head out of the sand?
Will GM beat the competition to the market with the Volt. Looks like an attractive Jetson's like car.
Loren
Oh well, I doesn't matter.
GM, on the Saturn ad now states, "Rethink American." You know, in a way I have to agree with the concept of American car, but it should go beyond the SUV and Truck classes. Corvette is an example I will use again. It looks like an American sports car. It has attitude. While it may be easier to look to Euro or Japan styles for car designs, I am hoping to see some uniquely American cars coming from the Big Three. Must say the Chrysler 300, love it or leave it, is an eye catcher.
But then again, the Cadillac CTS is too. Will they dial out the uniqueness though over the years. Will it lose edge? Will the front become a corporate Caddy one? And what of the new Corvette? How many here prefer to look to the previous models? Do you see a bit of say an NSX now? I kinda like the trimming of size. Got mixed feelings about the look. Performance seems better than ever. The HP race seems silly to me, though it is something which has to be done.
Loren
The incentives from Prius came from the taxpayer early on. For what reason I've never figured out but they wasted out tax money on those. Maybe it was to help the "smug alert" folks as the Simpsons would say.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,