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Would everybody stop saying that Toyota ripped off BMW with the 07 Camry already. The back end of the Camry came from the 02-06 Lexus ES not from BMW.
As for American Car Companies and exterior styling they can;t do a CTS and Chrysler 300 each time out with like a Chevy Malibu: you really can;t pull off a dramatic exterior car look with a mid-size car and expect it too sell with the last generation Nissan Altima being the lone exception to the rule.
The 86 Tarus did not look like the Audi 5000 to me it because to me those 2 cars were very different in exterior styling.
The only brands in GM's stable that could be like Toyota brands are Chevy because Chevy is massmarket just like Toyota brand is(minus Lexus and Scion) and Buick could be like Lexus but I do agree the other GM brands well to me besides Chevy and Buick should not be emulating any of Toyota's brands at all.
In my opinion Gm is at that point right now where saw they were losing money and now they do care about their customers.
DrFill
I think ALL brands of GM need to be unique in style and not aimed at a look of say an Altima. The Altima is a cool car, as is the Passat. But they have the look, and now it is time for GM to create a new look for all classes of cars. The New Malibu is good, but not overly exciting. The interior is kinda cool looking, and if the outside had more pizazz, it would be all for the better. Why didn't GM make the Solstice Coupe first? And make them in large quantity for $20K a piece. Recall the demand for the first 240Z by Datsun? Nissan seems only interested in the $30K category for the coupes now, and with those high doors, you best be a taller person to peer out of the little guy.
Anyway, as always IMHO, so your mileage may vary. :shades:
Happy motoring and keep the greasy side down,
Loren
Today I watched A. Swartz. have a Chrysler crushed behind him while he talked about Kyoto standards. It takes 55,000 miles of 33 mpg driving in a new car to make up for the energy consumed in the creation of that new 33 mpg car. That still doesn't make up for the chemical waste put out by the process or the landfill filling by the retired one. How many original 33 mpg car buyers keep their car way past the 55k mark to where they save the first gallon for Earth? The local ToyotaGMCCaddilac dealer by me leases to 80% of their customers. Why? Because there aren't any jobs left that let people afford to buy. Since hurricane Rita sent gas over $3 in 2004, and all the more efficient cars were since bought, has gas become any more plentiful and has the price gone back down?
Another went to Toyo dlr with newspaper ad saying 'Tacoma for $11,990'. He threatened them with lawsuit, BBB, etc and they finally caved and gave it to him. It had an engine, radio and a/c. Not even carpet.
The other bought a Sonoma extended cab, V6, auto, a/c, with cd, bucket seats, console, alloys for about $4000 off the 20k sticker.
The Toyo was garaged and well maintained and has held up great except is very basic, noisy, and gets 21 mpg at best. The Sonoma had several problems in the last 8 years. They were minor except for the a/c which he didn't fix. He spent about $300 on all the minor stuff total but the a/c was left broke. The Sonoma has twice the power yet gets 4 more mpg than either of the 4 cyl's. They all have low depreciation and the Sonoma today is the lowest operating cost due to the 25 mixed, 26 hwy mpg. The Toyo repair costs are the lowest, but by less than $50 per year. All of us were satisfied with what we got and in 8 years didn't take bad hits in depreciation. My S-10 was well eguipped yet 2k less than the stripped Tacoma, but with GMS discount. The ext cab was a $3500 option so the Sonoma depreciated the most. I traded my S-10 for $270 less than I paid for it with5300 miles on it. Today, It would sell for over $5k even with 90k miles on it. That's an avg of $700 a year for depreciation for a new truck. It never got over 20 mpg but wasn't broke in yet. As impressed as my brother is with his Tacoma, my S-10 was much more content for initial price, a pattern I still find in comparing GM with Toyota and Honda. The few bucks a month difference in repair costs advantage Toyo has doesn't justify putting My American brothers out of work.
It is a World economy. GM is a player in the World economy and has been since before WWII. There is such a thing as a German GM and a German Ford ya know. GM has plants around the World and sell cars in many a country. When doing so, they have to compete with the best and do so while making money. Perhaps it is the people working at GM which need to now do their part to save the company. Trust me many an American made a third or less the money of a UAW work yet managed to live, eat and yes, even buy new cars over the years.
Now it may be time in which they have to do with less. It is no longer Union vs. GM or how much can GM afford to pay, and it will hurt Ford, or.... it is not those outside the loop, as in people of America liking or disliking anyone. I don't know anyone at GM, and prefer to start out as liking everyone. But then what? Truth is to keep GM afloat and in the re-building process they may have to do with less in the way of money - health benefits - retirement money. This is not taking sides with GM management, but rather a harsh reality.
As for buying a GM vehicle people will want to be shown some benefit to them directly. And yes, this too is something beyond saving jobs in America. While it is good to save jobs, that card is only going to able to be played to a certain effect. Product and price and all those things people have said they like about cars, be it domestic or foreign are first and foremost what people have in mind when purchasing an expensive item - the car. Perhaps some deal can be worked out, like the Chrysler labor deal of decades ago, where they take a cut now, then once GM is totally on the mend, they will receive some profit sharing. First comes the stabilizing. This may include some buying up of debt, so labor may not be too keen on seeing profits without instant gains in wages after taking a cut. To avoid mis-understandings, I do hope things are all spelled out in the way of future expectations.
This all is squarely on the shoulders of GM and employees, as the customer is not to blame for situations arrived at over decades of decline for domestic products. If GM and the workers can show fellow Americans that they are serious about the total effort, and produce the goods, it will hopefully result in customers returning in larger numbers to domestic autos. GM left the customer - GM returns to customer - perhaps customer returns to GM.
The gas companies are indicating they do not want to build more plants so that prices remain high. Well then, it could be time for tax breaks to disappear and some heat be placed on them to build more. Of course, there is always the "not in my backyard" problem, but those can be overcome. More capacity is needed, or we are going to have some high prices for a long time. As for smaller, more fuel efficient cars knocking down price of gas -- time will tell. Too soon and not enough to make a difference so far. Eventually, it may work. This means less larger SUVs on the roads, and GM must adapt.
Hope my response is clear. People are not non-UAW, but to save GM and their jobs, at least some of us feel they will have to make some hard sacrifices in wages and benefits. This is not about how good a job they are doing, or my job vs. your job, but rather a question of survival and revival of their industry here in the States. In other words, wishing them well.
Loren
I understand you are concerned about workers and pensions, etc. Yet a capitalist company is in business to be profitable. Are you suggesting that competition is a bad thing? I thought this country was formed with capitalism at its heart.
It seems like whenever we try to help the little guy, we end up harming the entire country at a much bigger level. Pay the poor to not work, and crime goes up. When people are hungry they don't do grafitti.
Job losses are the "pruning" of the tree to make it stronger. People who lose jobs have a tough time and then find something new. The USA is creative because of the free market, and forms new companies and industries far more than anybody else. All because we are willing to let companies fail.
Should we be rewarding GM for poor decisions they've made in the past? Or should they have to earn their recovery?
How successful would the USA be, in the longer run, if we enacted trade barriers and protected jobs? Artificial stifling of competition didn't do the old Soviet Union a lot of good.
If equipment levels for the $$ are most important, GM will probably have the car for you but there is a saying about getting what you pay for....
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $3,324 $4,113 $4,887
Optional Equipment $418 $509 $662
AM/FM/CD Audio System $58 $71 $92
Cruise Control $35 $43 $56
Chrome Bumpers $17 $21 $27
Leather Steering Wheel Trim $10 $12 $16
Keyless Entry System $30 $36 $47
Privacy Glass $22 $27 $35
4-Speed Automatic Transmission $211 $256 $333
2.2L I4 OHV 8V FI Engine $0 $0 $0
Tilt Steering Wheel $35 $43 $56
Color Adjustment
Dark Red $10 $12 $15
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code 46056 $-28 $-35 $-42
Mileage Adjustment
90,000 miles $0 $0 $0
Condition Adjustment
Outstanding $387 $458 $557
Total $4,111 $5,057 $6,079
For $2500 around here you get a '96 with rusted out bed, seat with a 8 inch hole and a tapping 4cyl leaking oil with 128k miles on it and at least 3 body panels bashed in. A manual trans and the stereo was aftermarket, put in wrong. I just went looking in April at at least 8 dealers.
I have a friend that races that class of PU truck and the S10 is preferred over any other truck. Easiest to set up for racing.
PS
That is a 1996 junker for $2500. 1999 Tacoma sells in the same price range as the S10.
Delphi's new worker's are making $14/hr. (Half of what my father made) Have no dental for 3 years and no vision. No pension plan and at $14 an hour who can afford to put money in a 401K, huh ??????? The medical insurance is crappy if not considered worth less also. Sure my aunt is going to get a 2.50% raise each year and will make $15 and change after being their a couple of years now. By the end of the contract she will be making close to $17 an hour but with the cost of living she is getting by. :mad:
Loren, we talk so much about hourly taking the blunt of the sword but at what point do we get realistic and talk about concessions from millionaire's on Delphi's management team ???? This is not just a Delphi, issue as it spreads across the table to GM, as well. The factory's that remain will make even more profit now as $140+ million per plant wasn't enough. :confuse:
The bottom line is Delphi, management won and broke the union but as this cycle continues their will ultimately be no more average folks left to buy GM, automobiles and homes thus we are experiencinga recession. That is why lemko's prediction of utter chaos between classes of people in this country seems to be not so far off in the future.
-Rocky
GM needs to make cars which sell. If they can not make enough, then they should be able to let the help go. Pretty simple concept, before the contracts screwed with the process of hiring and firing. You really do not think that when I was let go from a hardware store that they should have paid for me not working for years and years? The hardware store was no golden goose. Harsh reality is that with most jobs you get a couple weeks pay and a boot in the butt out the door, even after years and years of service. Only way to avoid this is to hire yourself, but alas the economy may then kick you in the butt. Live is not always fair, nor easy. The USA does have opportunity to succeed however far greater than many other countries. Sometimes you just got to get up and out to find another job, career, passion.
Pensions are money promised. GM has an obligation to pay, but if they go belly up then I am not sure how that works. Things change, and perhaps lowering the benefits may have to be an option. I would not be too happy if part or all of my pension disappeared overnight, but at least in my case I would have saved my own money all along. Of course, after years of service in a hardware store, the retirement was one payment which was enough to buy a car, and no more.
Health care is an issue that may have to be addressed by way of a National Health Plan and paid for by way of a VAT (tax).
You mentioned other companies doing better, do not have a better turnaround story. They have no turnaround story. I beg to differ. Most ALL companies in the car industry have a pretty good story to tell of many a turnaround or new direction taken.
Loren
As for management, the wages should reflect the size of company and duties of the officers. They could indeed be paid too much. I do not know. When talking profits from a company doing billions, a CEO pay, as an example, is usually not meaningful a sum, as in a percent of a penny to company net per share earnings.
The stock market is overpriced and yes we are in a recession. The endless war seems to be consuming vast sums of our tax dollar, with results which look pretty obvious.
And Rocky, it is good to see ya back!
Loren
Get your fact straight, the Highlander is supposed to look like a bigger RAV4, it's called FAMILY RESEMBLANCE. Repeat after me, F-A-M-I-L-Y R-E-S-E-M-B-L-A-N-C-E. The Land Cruiser will no doubt be looking like a bloated Highlander. No original cues? Please tell me which SUV/CUV did the RAV4 copy from?
The new Toyota truck grille is ugly and dull.
Your opinion. To some it looks muscular and serious, the way the American pickup is supposed to be.
Right now GM is out-styling Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Chrysler, etc.
With that many brands and models they ought to be.
Well we are the ONLY western society that does not protect it's business and worker's from 3rd world competition. The bottom line is here in America, we work people till their dead and having to start over every five-ten years means a person will never end up with any vacations, work crappy hours and schedules in many cases thus the end result is they are unhappy. In France, a 35 hour work week and 6 weeks of vacation is law and a lot of company's give 8 weeks of vactions.
You will not find a happier group of people than the europeans/scandinaviansand their so-called socialism. Sure they might drink and smoke a bit too much but they are at least happier and enjoy life outside of the company. They are proof IMHO socialism works pretty well and with a little socialistic thinking here the factory's would of never left and company's like GM, would of had national health care.
Just my $0.02
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. Well the UAW-GM, contract will be up in September, so that should be interesting. The UAW prez was clear that the media is trying to negotiate the contract for the UAW and all this talk of concessions, concessions, concessions, is not going to happen.
Due to the cost of gas/diesel it looks like cost of goods is still going up. A good sized recession will cure the inflation. Worst case scenario is a recession - depression period with inflation. That would hurt big time.
Loren
That's just nuts. :confuse: The Hyundai Accent has a lower torque peak than that.
PS
We buy the big box of Quaker original Oats at Costco. I will never eat a bite of processed cereal again. Thanks to our host Steve.
Don't see any French cars for sale here in the USA -- why is that?
Isn't a union a form of socialism?
Yes, short work week and lot's of vacation time sounds good to me too!
So how is the French economy? Sounds like 6 to 8 weeks vacation time and such, the product would be pretty expensive. Any inflation there? Any poor class - I bet ya, they have plenty poverty. Just a wild guess.
Not working though, so every day is a vacation.
As for socialism working. Taking a look at our programs in the USA, I would say they come at a price. If the price becomes too much, the net may break. USA may very well have to move to National Health Care Plan soon. It has to be funded by a VAT tax or those not paying for health care now will never pay, and thus we go deeper into the death spiral for hospitals and national debt. You can work for cash, and work without being a citizen, but when you buy a product taxed by VAT it is there baby! GM would benefit immediately. UAW workers, and all workers now paying for health care and supporting those not paying anything would benefit.
LOren
I have seen the changes though. My first new car, the Opel '73 was $3,150 out-the-door and my apartment was $150 a month, with heat included. And this is in California coast. Let's just say the wages have not kept up though. Same apartment must be like $1,000 a month, I would think. Seem like inflation was the killer in the 70's to early 80's, then housing inflation the more recent killer. First the bank interest was the blessing, then the stock market. Now I am waiting to see the next step for the markets, which I still assume has to mirror the current recession at hand.
I like that Maple flavored oats, ummmm!
Loren
And exactly how many brand-new French cars have been sold in the U.S. within the last 10 years?
Also, you do realize that the French unemployment rate is about double that of the U.S., when the same standards are used? Unless we are putting a happy face on that and now counting unemployment in France as a permanent, 24/7 vacation.
rockylee: and with a little socialistic thinking here the factory's would of never left and company's like GM, would of had national health care.
In the early 1990s, after the Iron Curtain fell, many European car companies moved to establish factories in Eastern Europe to reduce costs.
When I was in Germany in 2004, the big news was that DaimlerChrysler was demanding concessions from the German autoworkers' union, and VW was threatening to build its new smaller SUV in low-cost Portugal if it didn't receive concessions from the union.
A fair number - if not the majority - of VWs sold in this country are sourced from Mexico. And both BMW and Mercedes built plants in the U.S. during the 1990s to better compete with Lexus.
Detroit's problems is that has had "a little socialistic thinking." Executives receive golden parachutes regardless of their company's performance (Rick Wagoner loses $4 billion in the Fiat deal, and nothing happens), while UAW members stay on the payroll regardless of the demand for the parent company's products.
Looks like guaranteed employment for both management and labor to me. Isn't that a principle of socialism - a job for everyone no matter what?
That "socialistic thinking" is hurting Detroit.
In the truest sense Unions may be a form of socialism. I don't think many here would want to live under pure capitalism. Without laws to protect any of us. We have labor laws that were designed to keep the people on the top from enslaving the workers. My daughter worked for the largest corporation in the World, WalMart. It started out like a good job and went down hill fast. It will not be many years before it is Unionized. I am glad we have the right in this country to have collective bargaining. All wages would be lower without it. And working conditions would be much worse for everyone. I think many folks would like to have a Union and are afraid to step out for fear of reprisal.
Are you a "Buy American" car person because I see your in your profile you used to work for Delphi or were you always a "Buy American" car person even before you worked for Delphi? I happen to be a Japanese Car Fan myself, BTW.
Loren
Loren
My reference was: I never went past the level of living after I reached $19 per hour plateau. That was the total Union package. Probably about $13 per hour on my check. We were stuck there through most of the late 1970s. I was in debt and the banks were the only ones getting rich. Have not financed a car since they took away the deduction for interest on consumer loans. That was a good thing. Gave me a reason to pay off my cards every month and save for those big purchases.
GMS was about 10% off MSRP, but all can usually get invoice at 5% off.
Package discount for the auto, cd, cruise and tilt was $700.
Rebate was $2500. Near end of model year.
I was able to put $1700 of GM card earnings against it.
Result was OTD for $9980 plus tax
The chrome package included chrome front and rear bumpers and inlaid chrome in side molding from front to rear, including chrome inlaid in the rubber around the wheelwells. That was about $295 and I'm sure it's as good as any similar Toyo option costing $400.
Both start around the same price loaded but I can get 7k off on the S-10 with the goodies or I can get a stripper Tacoma for 2k more? And say you get what you pay for? there is nothing in the TOYO stripper. Listen to noise come thru the vinyl floor while you work the clutch -vs- save a couple thousand and get auto, CD, cruise, chrome, alloys and have to do maybe one more repair in 8 years? The quieter, smoother, more convenient and more comfortable truck is the S-10, even after 8 years. I would pay for the extra repair with the interest I earn on the $2120 I saved at purchase time (includes 6% tax). So there's my stack up of: You get what you pay for.
Would like to see that one.
Yeah here in the U.S. it is the case but over their it's all about celebrating.
Isn't a union a form of socialism?
Yes, and the wealthy elites in this country have destroyed their power and the voice of the commoner's.
Yes, short work week and lot's of vacation time sounds good to me too!
So how is the French economy? Sounds like 6 to 8 weeks vacation time and such, the product would be pretty expensive. Any inflation there? Any poor class - I bet ya, they have plenty poverty. Just a wild guess.
The main poverty in Europe, is made up of illegal Arab immigrants.
Not working though, so every day is a vacation.
35 hours isn't working ? :confuse: The statitics show they do more volume per hour in 35 hours than we do in 40 hours.
As for socialism working. Taking a look at our programs in the USA, I would say they come at a price. If the price becomes too much, the net may break. USA may very well have to move to National Health Care Plan soon. It has to be funded by a VAT tax or those not paying for health care now will never pay, and thus we go deeper into the death spiral for hospitals and national debt. You can work for cash, and work without being a citizen, but when you buy a product taxed by VAT it is there baby! GM would benefit immediately. UAW workers, and all workers now paying for health care and supporting those not paying anything would benefit.
Yes GM, would benefit but also so would the consumer if "Sicko's" statics show a representation of how the (for multi-billion dollar profit) medical field is working. :surprise:
-Rocky
Lots if you consider the French owned Nissan-Infiniti :P
Also, you do realize that the French unemployment rate is about double that of the U.S., when the same standards are used? Unless we are putting a happy face on that and now counting unemployment in France as a permanent, 24/7 vacation.
Well I could throw in the millions of illegal aliens that many would consider unemployed in this country which aren't counted in our rosy low unemployment data. Working at Mickey D's for mininum wage or Walley World, make your pockets feel like you are unemployed.
In the early 1990s, after the Iron Curtain fell, many European car companies moved to establish factories in Eastern Europe to reduce costs.
Which ones and where ? From what I read they expanded not moved ? :confuse:
When I was in Germany in 2004, the big news was that DaimlerChrysler was demanding concessions from the German autoworkers' union, and VW was threatening to build its new smaller SUV in low-cost Portugal if it didn't receive concessions from the union.
Well they to are feeling the blade of the greedy capitalist sword and if they aren't careful they will end up like us a society of two classes the rich and the poor.
A fair number - if not the majority - of VWs sold in this country are sourced from Mexico.
The only one I know of is the Jetta ? Maybe the Golf or Bug could be also ? I'm not knowledgable about VW.
And both BMW and Mercedes built plants in the U.S. during the 1990s to better compete with Lexus.
MB, has what one plant and BMW has one plant both making SUV's whichis a market driven reason. :confuse:
Detroit's problems is that has had "a little socialistic thinking." Executives receive golden parachutes regardless of their company's performance (Rick Wagoner loses $4 billion in the Fiat deal, and nothing happens), while UAW members stay on the payroll regardless of the demand for the parent company's products.
Well that wasn't actually socialistic thinking because if we were really thinking socialistic we'd have at least a "real" tariff on every import. We are the only industrialized countryin theworld that does not protect it's business and worker's from 3rd world country's. :mad:
Looks like guaranteed employment for both management and labor to me. Isn't that a principle of socialism - a job for everyone no matter what?
That "socialistic thinking" is hurting Detroit.
It beats the capitalist way of thinking a job for no one cuz a illegal alien or a foreigner can do it cheaper. This is why the U.S. will be defeated cuz we let executives of large corporations dictate the welfare of our country. :sick:
-Rocky
Actually visit there, and you'll find out the truth, which isn't what you have posted.
rockylee: Yes, and the wealthy elites in this country have destroyed their power and the voice of the commoner's.
As regards to the auto industry, consumers choosing freely have eliminated the oligopoly that the Big Three and the UAW had on the auto market, which has reduced upward pricing pressure and improved quality.
When the Big Three had 90 percent of the market, and the UAW had a monopoly on the labor used to build those vehicles, they merely passed increased wage and benefit costs on to the paying customers. This is no longer possible.
Plenty of "commoners" buying high-quality Hondas and Toyotas are very grateful. So are the "commoners" buying Fords and Chevys, who are getting a much higher quality product than they would have if we had relied on the UAW and the Big Three to improve their products at their own pace. In other words, not much would have happened to benefit consumers.
rockylee: The main poverty in Europe, is made up of illegal Arab immigrants.
The majority of immigrants in Europe are legal. The countries invited them in during the 1960s, when native-born residents began refusing to perform many jobs that they considered to be "menial." In Germany they are called guestworkers and are mainly Turkish Muslims. In France they mainly come from the former French colonies in Africa. In Great Britain, citizens of former colonies are allowed to immigrate to Great Britain.
Unfortunately, several of the European economies have failed to grow fast enough to generate enough jobs for these people. But they stay for the generous welfare benefits. These countries are grappling with an unassimilated ethnic minority that lives there legally and collects generous welfare-state benefits, which gives unemployed or underemployed males plenty of opportunity to cause trouble.
rockylee: Yes GM, would benefit but also so would the consumer if "Sicko's" statics show a representation of how the (for multi-billion dollar profit) medical field is working.
Using Sicko as proof for anything is a very dangerous proposition. Our health care system has problems - but the chief reform would be to require patients to pay MORE of their costs, thus enabling them to get a better idea of how much health care really costs.
Sicko's "solutions" would only inspire a sequel - Sicker.
Loren
Heck, I'd imagine that was pretty good money back then! Back around that timeframe, I think my grandparents on my Mom's side of the family made about $2000 per year each...which would come out to about $40 per week.
My Granddad on my Dad's side of the family retired from the railroad in 1974, and was making $6 per hour when he retired. I remember as a kid, I thought they were rich because they bought a new car every few years, paid cash for it, and lived in a nice house with three bathrooms! It was like that pilot episode of "The Jeffersons", where they first moved on up to the East Side, and George ran around the apartment flushing all the toilets!
Ah, those were the days. :P
-Rocky
No Nissans or Infinitis sold in this country are built in France. No one realistically considers them to be French cars.
rockylee: Well I could throw in the millions of illegal aliens that many would consider unemployed in this country which aren't counted in our rosy low unemployment data.
Illegal immigrants can't collect unemployment benefits, and, because of that, they would go back home if they didn't have work. They aren't supposed to be here in the first place, so there is no reason to count them in our unemployment figures.
rockylee: Working at Mickey D's for mininum wage or Walley World, make your pockets feel like you are unemployed.
How people feel about their jobs and pay is not the same thing as an official unemployment statistic.
rockylee: The European Union has the best economy in the world.
Well, if higher unemployment and historically lower growth rates are good, then, yes, it does have the best economy in the world, but most of use different standards when determining which economy is the "best."
rocklyee: Which ones and where ? From what I read they expanded not moved ?
Opel and VW, for starters have expanded their presence in Eastern Europe. Now, you are correct, they have not moved their headquarters or their entire production base to Eastern Europe. But they have moved there to take advantage of the lower costs. And GM was threatening to lay people off in Germany and Sweden when I visited Germany in 2004.
rockylee: Well they to are feeling the blade of the greedy capitalist sword and if they aren't careful they will end up like us a society of two classes the rich and the poor.
I never realized that competition from Toyota/Lexus and Honda was synonomous with the "greedy capitalist sword."
rockylee: The only one I know of is the Jetta ? Maybe the Golf or Bug could be also ? I'm not knowledgable about VW.
The Bug for certain.
rockylee: MB, has what one plant and BMW has one plant both making SUV's whichis a market driven reason.
But why not make them in Europe? Perhaps costs are too high?
And BMW makes its sports car in America.
rockylee: Well that wasn't actually socialistic thinking because if we were really thinking socialistic we'd have at least a "real" tariff on every import.
I've got a better idea - instead of whining about the scapegoat du jour - currency manipulation, no tariffs, bad reviews of domestic cars in Consumer Reports, etc., etc. - the UAW and the Big Three work together and:
1. craft a real plan to improve productivity by dramatically revising archaic work rules (no government action required for this);
2. allow the union to administer the health care plan (no government action required for this);
3. eliminate golden parachutes for executives (no government action required for this - this seems to be a pattern here);
4. tie worker and executive compensation to achieving quality levels, as measured by either J.D. Powers or Consumer Reports (no government action required for this one, either):
5. can the Jobs Bank (and - no government action required for this one).
rockylee: We are the only industrialized countryin theworld that does not protect it's business and worker's from 3rd world country's.
Considering that the Big Three have faced their stiffest competition from vehicles built by companies based in Japan and Germany, I wonder when those respective nations suddenly attained third-world status.
rockylee: It beats the capitalist way of thinking a job for no one cuz a illegal alien or a foreigner can do it cheaper.
But earlier in your post you claimed that unemployed illegal aliens should be counted to accurately gauge the U.S. unemployment rate. Now every employer is hiring them for jobs, so they must not be unemployed. If so, they are displacing citizens, who WOULD be counted as unemployed in the official statistics.
Which is it?
-Rocky
The truth is people would rather pay more for the Japanese or German product than the American. Even worse Hyundai is eating off the low end.
Frankly if Detroit falls, they deserve it. You could see this happing 20 years ago. If they didn’t reverse the loss of market share they would have to scale down.
What ticks me off as an American is seeing GM, Ford, and Chrysler close down a US factory, build one in Mexico or Canada, wave the flag and expect me forget about it. I don’t think so. In my humble opinion they lost the right to call themselves American companies when they began importing so many cars.
To be blunt I think a smart move might be for one or more of the big three to move out of Detroit. It is strange three car companies that have the same issues and do the same things. Maybe they need to see how the rest of the country lives, works, and drives.
Anyway what the big three need is more r/d to and better marketing. Give me a reason to buy the car. About the only ad for American products I really liked was the GM transformers ones. Otherwise they are often weak in the reasons to buy department.
1. I don't know what "pure capitalism" is. "Capitalism" is a term invented by critics who wanted to build socialism/communism back in the 19th century. They described the state of affair then existing as "capitalism." And the term has been abused ever since. Some believe unfettered free market is capitalism; others believe capitalism means capitalists get to control the machinery of the state to their own benefit. Obviously, these two descriptions are diametricly opposed to each other. State intervention on behalf of incumbents is obviously not unfettered free market.
2. Employers can not enslave employees unless the government passes laws to enable slavery. In a free market place, employees are free to find the employer willing to pay the most and switch job. Government can clog up that process in two ways:
(1) Making it cumbersome to start new competing business, so incumbent businesses have a lock on existing labor pool, and therefore they can limit the wage because the employees are cut off from would-be employers who are prevented by the government to start a new shop.
(2) Making it cumbersome for a would-be employee to offer his or her labor . . . i.e. documentation requirement. What's really ironic is that the vast majority of instances of slavery in the world today is the result of this: the undocumented workers being exploited because they can not legally work or in some cases even be in that country; they live in fear and being held hostage because they are afraid of government law enforcement. In other words, the real enforcer of slavery is, as usual, the government.
3. In a competitive free market, wage level does not necessarily go down, despite what the socialist theories have predicted in the last two centuries. Emperical evidence seems to be quite clear on that. The countries with the fastest wage increases in recent years are economies that have been turning rapidly free-enterprising, and where the government social safety net are not yet catching up. India and China have seen their non-government private sector wage level in major economic centers inreasing at 20+% annual rate in recent years. The wage levels are going up because the "big bad capitalist" next door is offering more than the existing one. It's really no secret. Ireland experienced the same thing in the late 90's, as the country transformed from a low-cost backwater tourist attraction to having one of the highest per capita income in Europe. The samething happened in Finland. Can you really blame the Italians, Germans, and now the French all wanting to emulate the same?
Economic efficiency comes from division of labor. Division of labor means people excelling at different things have to trade with one another. The less the government gets in the way of such trade, the more thriving the trade becomes, and the more specialization can take place . . . and ergo the economy is more efficient and more goods and service become generally available.
4. Mundane jobs at big consolidators like Walmart has no reason to be high paying. The innovation at Walmart is its information management . . . i.e. the keeping track of shelves and registers, not the physical moving of goods through shelves and scanners. Old line goods and services have to decrease in value relative to a person's income; that's the only way an average income can rise in real terms. Think about that, these are two statements saying the exact same thing, in two different ways. Therefore, people who do old line works, unless their productivity increase significant, would on average inevitably see their relative income level decrease compared to the rest of the population if the average living standard is rising. That's what socialist/communist theoreticians observed, and why Marx called the final stage of Capitalism "Monopoly Capitalism" . . . In reality he was describing consolidation behavior in an old and dying industry. His mistake was the same as Malthus' (his contemporary, sort of). They both failed to see the value of innovation. Innovation is what pulls employees out of dying lines of work with declining relative income level to make a new good or service. The inventor of the new mouse trap needs workers to make profit, and because his new mouse trap is better and can sell for more he is able to pay more for workers, too! That's how the free market place reallocates labor efficiently: from old consolidating industries to new high growth ones . . .through the relative wage process.
There are a lot of people being paid in between $14/hr on one end, and multi-million per year on the other. Isn't that what the market place is for? deciding who gets paid what, based on supply and demand? Do you go into a dealership, and insist on Yaris and LS600hL should be exactly $50k each, no less, no more?
The funny thing about healthcare is that, sure everyone wants it, but when was the last time you volunteered at a hospital?? So why should anyone else volunteer, or worse, get drafted by the government, to provide you with healthcare (the "you" being the rhetoric "you," not you personally, Rocky). Taxing people or regulating employers to provide for it is just another way of drafting resources by government fiat, which is the quickest route to waste and inefficiency.
The more government intervention, the worse the situation will get. Free market works because it allows people do what they want to do (transaction between willing parties, however absurd or outlandish the transactions appear to a third party). That avoids the overhead cost of "nanny" that is inevitable in any sort of government intervention. In a free market, people can get on with what they do the best, and that lead to more food, instead of focusing on fighting over the table scraps in a society that is centered around allocation by the government.
2. Employers can not enslave employees unless the government passes laws to enable slavery.
I think you have it backward. Government has to pass laws to prevent slavery.
Healthcare was an accepted benefit given to most employees with or without a Union 40 years ago. No coercion just good economics for all concerned.
Retirement benefits were also widespread, especially with the larger employers. The rub came when the employers started dipping into these large pools of money and employees got screwed out of a retirement they were guaranteed as part of their employment. So the government steps in with the ERISA.
The labor laws we have were enacted in response to employer abuse of employees. Yes you can switch jobs if you are not happy. As we have seen over the last 25 years the lack of loyalty on both the employee and employers part, is not that good for a stable economy.
To me, pure capitalism was what the cave man had. You capitalize on the weaker ones for your own benefit. Or a more modern term "Dog eat Dog, may the best man win". This was pretty much what we had everywhere until the last 400 years when people started thinking we should not kill each other to get what we wanted.
Not many will survive in that kind of World. In this day and age the guy with the most nukes will get that last word.
If you mean the more government doles out money for programs that are flawed, I agree. Government intervention to protect us from outside forces is the primary reason we formed the Union in 1776. The laws were added when the need arose. The government giveaway programs are mostly a 20th century way to get votes from those that feel left out or opt to drop out.
Getting back to GM. If they can work out concessions with the UAW they will survive in the USA. They are not going away as many have hoped for. They are making money in most of the World. They still sell 25% more vehicles in the USA than number 2 Toyota.
How is there less stability in the economy because people want to switch jobs more often? As people become better educated, they demand more out of their work experience, and are not afraid to switch jobs to find it.
Like it or not, people today - especially college-educated people under the age of 30 - have very different expectations of what they want from a job (that is why they refer to it as a "career" as opposed to a "job") than people with similar levels of education did 40 years ago.
gagrice: To me, pure capitalism was what the cave man had. You capitalize on the weaker ones for your own benefit.
I would characterize it as making money by selling people what they want.
GM makes money by selling people vehicles that they want - either because of past favorable experience, style, or the right combination of features, style and price.
Granted, there apparently aren't enough of those people to keep GM profitable, but that problem must ultimately be addressed by GM headquarters in Detroit.