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Slavery is a very inefficient method of production . . . because the minders holding a whip all day are a huge waste of human resources. If slavery worked as an efficient method of production in a normal economy, slavery institutions like the [non-permissible content removed] labor camps and Soviet gulags would have been great economic success stories; they were not. The economic viability of slave-labor comes from "free" law enforcement . . . the slave tracking and run-away slave hunting system that is largely paid for by non-slave owning taxpayers. Government pass laws to invalidate property rights over slaves, thereby removing the "free" enforcement benefits to wannabe slave owners. Private enforcement of slavery can not be done without violent coercion (or threat thereof), which is in itself quite costly; no one has become a billionair through highway robbery, except for the government, which is paid for by taxpayers. There are existing laws preventing committing violence against one another. So aside from removing the government enforcement of property rights regarding slaves, other anti-slavery laws are quite superfluous.
IMHO, benefits systems from employers are always a bit of a scam. It's like, work for me now, and I will pay you later, decades later :-) Who would work under those terms if put it in such clearly stated terms :-) Government intervention there can not prevent company bankruptcy. . . all an "insurance" (that is inevitably under-funded in an economic down turn) accomplishes is transferring employer liability to the taxpayers.
Cavemen did not have capitalism. Marx (as a proxy for summarising all the socialist econohistory theoretical research) actually described caveman life as "primitive communism" as there was no "residual value of labor" to exploit; each man or woman barely had enough to feed themselves, in good times. When productivity increased to a level where there were consistent "left-overs," the government was born so that the chiefs and their friends did not have to work, at least not as hard as before. Their primary job became making sure that they owned/controlled other members of their tribes; if outright ownership of blood relatives was infeasible, create a little war to produce POW's, which were morally acceptable to be slaves to be owned. The rest of the tribe, because they lost relatives in the wars to the other tribes, will also willingly help enforce the enslavement of such POW's. Serf system and fuedalism came later because the enforcement of slavery just became too cumbersome. Giving workers a little more autonomy, even if just a tiny little, makes for more productive workers. Serfs were still attached to land. That's how things more or less stood until about 4-500 years ago. Aside from a few heavily taxed caravans passing between political jurisdictions, the primary form of exchange consisted of outright robbery, in the name of "conquest" and feudal "tax" and redistribution. What happened after that, was "Capitalism" (in Marx' words). . . (relatively) free trade of goods, services and labor started to emerge as the rennassaince city states and trans-oceanic shippers proved that greater wealth could be built than the old method of squeezing the life out of serfs and killing neighboring lords (in the name of religion or just sheer greed); as fuedal lords' influence diminished, people became less bound to land. More goods and services gradually become available as trade promote specialization.
It's by no means a perfect word of tranquility. Creative destructions take place all the time as old less productive industries are constantly replaced by newer more productive ones. From time to time, people born in prosperity and grew up never experienced real hardship, never seen what a real dog-eat-dot political predation is like, start to have romatic idealizations of Feudalism; they think the lords dressed up in fancy outfits all day, hosted great balls in the evenings, and took care of their subjects within their political boundaries like parents towards children. The reality is that such paternalistic societies inevitablly bring economic ruination because the great wisemen still can not set the prices right . . . thereby unable to make efficient investment of resources.
Competition is reality, whether we call it "dog eat dog" or otherwise. Economic prosperity makes everyone better disposed towards each other. When the economy goes down the shoot, I doubt anyone would hesitate grabbing what table scrap there is left for the benefit of his own wife and children first, before someone else does the same for his family. The only difference is whether certain parties in that competition should be given special priviliges in that competition because they wear the robes of government officials.
BTW, what 1776 launced was a confederacy (Article of Confederacy), specificly as a rebellion against then legitimate government (British Crown) proposal of raising a tax to help defraying the cost of protecting the 13 colonies from external threats. The (somewhat) powerful federal government came later as a means to collect tax on behalf of the bankers, who had lent money to the government in the form of worthless Continentals (where the term "aint worth a Continental" came from) but wanted to be repaid in real silver specie. That was in 1791-93. Of course, it got even more powerful through the War of Southern Conquest, WWI, WWII and War on Poverty. It's a pattern that humanity that came after cavemen should be familiar with, ever since the early chiefs appreciated the value of wars to tribal internal control and produce slaves for the chiefs themselves.
Getting back to GM, IMHO, it will do a lot better when unburdened with all the political baggages. It's doing quite well as a global company overseas. Domesticly, the political burden of the union legacy cost is killing it financially. There is really only two solutions to this fundamentally political problem:
(1) more free trade, and let GM become a global concern unburdened by the domestic legacy cost.
(2) lock down North American, from the Ucatan and north, and expell all import competition. The problem with that is that North American consumers will suffer. That, and the distinct risk of wars as other countries will turn into mercantilistic empires too. Exchange is a natural human instinct; nobody can be good at everything. When peaceful trade is blocked as a means of exchange, war and predation becomes the outlet for inter-personal exchange.
Capitalism, in theory has some pro's but many forget about all the cons. The Rich get richer and the poor and middle class take the blade of the sword finacially. Just look at the pooling of the health care industry, energy industries, just to name a few. Is that capitalism ? Any player who tries to get in the market is immediantly squashed. I know you are a "Reaganite" and believe whole body and soul in his "Trickel Down Theory" or as some have called it in years past the "horse and sparrow theory": If you feed enough oats to the horse, some will pass through to feed the sparrows." :confuse: ROTFLMAO
Well brightness, I'm one of the sparrows and all I see a bunch of under valued jobs around here in this country, because of globalization. Cost's ya more than a mortgage payment to get a McDegree at the McUniversity, and when you graduate you can go get a poverty paid McJob. It's pretty damn sad when you know lots of elder's who made a lot more money and had a lot better benefits 10-15 years ago than today in the same fields. Sure the top 1-5% are getting wealthier but the rest of us have seen our pensions and 401K's cut or eliminated, health care cut backs happen it seems each year, raises that don't keep up with the cost of living, and some in the media are wondering why we aren't out buying cars ? :confuse:
I also wanted to add: As much as you hate our government, I do believe you should at least consider afewthings the government does well. Each month people's social security checks come to their homes and they are in most cases accurate. Medicaid and Medicare, are both very well ran government run insitutions. Doctor's don't have to fight hours on the phone over pennies with the private sector insurance company's and the doctor's get paid promptly.
The bottom line is General Motors, will not be healthy in the United States, again until we rebuild a strong middle class. Currently the "middle class" is being squeezed or for the lack of a better term "crushed" and no longer can afford, and many don't take the risk of owning a new car because of fear of losing his/her job. That's pretty damn sad if you ask me but those are the majorityof reasons I've read about.
I think that was what "gagrice" was pretty much touching on when referring to a "stable economy". People I know (friends, family, co-worker's) from many states across this nation know somebody or experienced a job loss thus they don't spend money and the wheels of the economy stop turning. General Motors, can't absorb another major recession while it blew billions in this turn-around effort to right the ship. I do predict another Reagon like "Black Monday" will come because everthing is so artificially high. :surprise:
-Rocky
They made everything just-in-time and outsourced as much as they could and it worked well until a few critical areas fell apart - and everything else came down with it, since there was no redundancy or reserves or homegrown industry to fall back on.
I think you've been listening to Micheal Moore a bit to much.
While these programs do offer a good and needed service, it is far from perfect.
Just ask your local independent pharmacy. Medicare part D has just about run all them out of business. Ever since Medicare part D was put in place, the independents of have been selling out to ther large chains left and right. The reimbursement rates and length of time for payment is killing them. Only the large chains have the ability to operate on a scale where they can stay profitable.
That may or maynot be a good thing, I guess that depends on which side of the coin you are on.
The Volt mule is now on the streets. The vehicle is one of GM's highest priorities. They have contracted two separate companies to develop the batteries.
The Chevrolet Volt concept has hit the road -- in Massachusetts, at least.
David Vieau, the chief executive of battery maker A123 Systems, said during a congressional hearing Thursday that the company's employees recently had driven the Volt, General Motors Corp.'s attempt to regain an environmental mantle.
A123 is one of the companies developing lithium-ion batteries for the Volt, which is designed to travel up to 40 miles on electricity alone and up to 640 miles on 12 gallons of gasoline. GM has said the Volt could arrive in dealerships within the next five years, depending on how fast the technology develops.
GM spokesman Brian Corbett said the Volts driven by A123 and others are rough prototypes, similar to concept cars. The next generation of Volt prototypes, which will closely mimic a production model, aren't expected until later this year or early next year.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070715/BUSINESS01/707150589/1014
On a side note I watched the "Who killed the electric car" this weekend. All in all pretty fair. For those who have not seen it looks for the guilty parties and delivers some data on each (auto companies, government, consumer, batteries, etc). In the end it says all were guilty EXCEPT the batteries. Funny thing is that it was the batteries that did it in. Even today, many years later there is still not even an economical battery that will work in an all electric vehicle for the masses that meets their needs. Sure they can build one that will go 30 miles in a charge (with cost effective batteries) but the demand for that would be pretty low and awful hard to put a business case around. Even the Volt, a hybrid, is in jeopardy because a battery is not available yet.
anyone who is paying attention to what I am saying can see I am very realistic and objective. Unlike many here, I actually provide some context for my statements here. Sorry, but simply not accepting that everything GM does is stupid and every vehicle they make isnt competitive does not mean my head is in the sand. Always beware of people who talk in absolutes all the time. If the shoe fits, wear it.
Issue is what the cost will be. It could be built now but the battery cost is prohibitive to selling in any kind of volume. Some could sell on a limited basis, just like some performance cars sell in limited numbers.
Mr. Ballew says that in 2003 the five biggest considerations that shoppers cited in their Silverado or Sierra purchase were, in order: rebates, towing capability, value, exterior styling, and employee discounts. In 2007 they’ve become, in order: styling (interior and exterior), value, reputation, reliability, and dealership experience when buying.
These considerations aren’t accidental. Mr. White, says that in 2001, when General Motors looked forward in time to what buyers would want in the newly redesigned Silverado and Sierra, they focused on six areas to win in the market: exterior styling, interior styling, driving experience, safety, quality, and depth and breadth of the lineup.
GM’s on a roll with its big pickups. At this moment in time, I think they’re the best all-around light and heavy duty trucks you can buy for the money. But the good news for fans of other trucks is that this will definitely push those brands to make better rigs. There’s no other choice. In these ultra-competitive times no manufacturer can afford not to make continuous improvements to their current trucks and to their next generation products. All trucks are only going to get better from here.
I am glad that my SS is deposited in my bank each month. The bottom line is that money I have paid in over the 45 years I worked would have done better in a savings account. You will not make out as well as I have and you will have paid in much more. It is far less than well run. It is what we would get if we had a national health care program such as Canada. Family I have in Canada are not happy with the long wait to see a doctor. The lack of facilities etc.
The only health care system in the USA that is half way decent is Kaiser which is only available in a few states. Some would probably argue against that.
I can see that many posters here must have upper middle class jobs paying over $100k per year. Or they would see the fallacy of job switching to try and get ahead in this economy. Remember that you will need about $700,000 in your 401K to retire with the benefit I get from a Union job. I see too many people cashing out or borrowing against their 401k. If you depend just on Social Security you will be lucky to afford dog food and sleeping on the sidewalk.
Our current economy is a false one built on producing products for the war effort. When that slows down the economy will follow. Nothing else to keep it going. We already had our dot.com bubble. Our housing bubble is bursting with massive foreclosures.
Hang on to that job at Wally World, you will need it.
tia
Steve, Host
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Here's another shock - GM has 7,000 disparate IT systems. But they're working to streamline that too. (link).
With 7000 systems to work on I suspect my kid should go into IT and related fields of study. Job security.
I wonder how Toyo and Honda are set up since their plants are newer. I recall touring the GM Moraine plant when it built S10s some time after opening and the computers at certain points were primarily record keeping stations.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So far, lithium-ion batteries have gained capacity at the rate of 8 percent to 10 percent a year, doubling their ability to store energy over a decade. This and improved electrode chemistry have refreshed the appeal of the battery-electric car. Tesla, an electric-car startup that plans to start delivering its $98,000 Roadster this fall, has developed a power storage system of 6,831 lithium cells, each about the size of a AA battery, that it says will power the car 200 miles.
The Volt looks very cool. If they can build it for under $25K, then perhaps it will work.
Loren
Like I said before, the word "capitalism" means very different things to different people. To some (including yours truely) it means free market competition with as little bought-and-paid-for government intervention as possible. To critics, it means the big guys using the machineries of the government to exploit the little guys. The latter case is actually called "state capitalism," which is not free market capitalism at all, but socialism under another name. The utopia of government serving the little guys at the expense of big guys is quite improbable if we really thihnk about it: who do you think have more resources to buy off the lever-pullers on the government machinery? Little guys or the big guys with deeper pockets? So why make the government machinery powerful?
Back to GM, the fundamental issue is this: if 500 workers in plant A can turn out 10 LeCross in an hour, and 500 different workers in plant B can turn out 10 exactly same LeCross in an hour too . . . and productivity of each plant is representative of average productivity of the populations surrounding the two plants . . . is there any reason why people at location A should be having higher standard of living than people at location B? Obviously not. Make location A = Lansing MI, and location B = Bombay, India, and think again about your earlier arguments.
Sure, everyone wants healthcare and a nice house, but who's providing either? Did you volunteer at a hospital or at a building site? Obviously more suppliers are needed if there is heathcare shortage or housing shortage (I doubt the latter) . . . and what's the answer to that? government price setting on healthcare and housing, thereby making the shortage even more accute? or switching some of the people out of the no-so-urgently needed carmaking to healthcare and etc.? How do you suppose such a switch should take place? Send in armed solderis to factory floors and round them up and ship off to a hospital? (ie. government fiat) or simply let the market price for factory worker wage drop and let hospital wage rise? so that pepole can make the switch without having a gun to their head.
very true, any rust belt city (including my own) can attest to the horrors of what happens when capitalism determines your city is no longer needed. People who dont live in areas such as this swear that people and cities can simply evolve when the jobs go overseas and everything will be OK. I can assure you it doesnt work that way. Although the economy in Philly is far more diverse than it was 50 years ago the city has never fully recovered from the collapse of US manufacturing. Hundreds of thousands of people and jobs have vanished in the previous decades and they are never coming back. This is the case in cities and towns from PA to Michigan. The US is headed towards the point where we wont make anything locally and I dont see that being a good thing.
Henry Ford realized that when he doubled the wages of his workers so they could afford to buy what they were building.
The high cost of car ownership in Japan is not due to low inome, but high regulation cost. A typical car cost $2-300/mo to lease just like here, but the license to keep a car on the road costs more than that (something like $5-15k a year). A parking space in Tokyo costs $75/day.
Interesting concept, where what you make is what you should be able to afford. Pay scale for the Rolls Royce workers must be pretty high. And if you build a 747 plane, wow, some wages it would take to get one of those babies.
:shades:
Loren
I thought the pay was about equal between all the brands of car, for those built here in the States.
In the case of GM they need to pay down debt, pay for those retired, and somehow lose the job banks and such, or they are going to go bankrupt. What this translates to in pay scale I could not begin to guess at in my wildest dreams. Is it a pay of 10%, 20% or 30% under the competition? Who knows? Somewhere the years of debt and overextending of benefits must be paid off, If they do go into bankruptcy, then will they pay out anything at all? The crunch is on this decade.
Loren
GM signed onto some pretty tough conditions in their UAW contracts. They will have to live with them or negotiate better in the future.
When I was part of the negotiations for our contracts, we always knew and had all the documentation as to the condition of the company. We never tried to push past a point that would be detrimental to the health of the company. I think the UAW will need to do likewise. We had several years in the 1980s when things in AK were at recession levels. We did not ask for much. When they were good we asked for more.
PS
I think I read that the Toyota package at the KY plant is about 20% under the UAW with GM.
That probably includes medical benefits. The transplants have been careful to structure their medical benefits in a manner that keeps them from becoming a competitive handicap. The medical plans that the transplants offer closely approximate the coverage offered under most health plans.
As for straight wages, I recall reading a few months ago that Toyota workers were actually brining home HIGHER wages than their Big 3 counterparts. It was due to bonuses (and the lack thereof at GM, Ford and Chrysler), if I recall correctly.
I think Toyota's plant workers like in their Kentucky plant they get paid $30.00 and hour while the Domestic Big 3 UAW plant workers get paid $27.00 an hour I think but I think "Rocky Lee" who is a poster on these threads said like that the Toyota plant workers doesn;t get the boneses that the UAW Domestic Big 3 workers get.
I think if GM sheds the job banks and health care for life they will be in good shape.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The lower Mexican cost of living that you mentioned just illustrates the earlier point that I made about money flow. It's no different from youths in upstate NY packing up going down to the city . . . because the pay is more, even if it means higher cost of living. That's how NYC makes up for its negative birth-death rate. Souces of money creation sucks in labor and goods from the outside, in the opposite direction of money flow itself. Macroeconomists would like to talk about money creation matching the increase of goods and services, so price level is maintained . . . what that analysis skipped over is the fact that, if 10,000 news cars worth $200mil are made in Michigan or Mexico, depressing local car price, an extra $200mil printed in DC or NYC and handed over to local friends in DC and NYC, while maitaining macro cash/goods ratio, is going to drive up the labor price in DC and NYC first and take a long time to propagate that inflationary pressure to Michigan or Mexico to counteract the price-reducing effect of extra production. After looking through this scheme, anyone in working age with two feet and a thinking brain is going to find ways to move closer to the money centers.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ay2GH4nP1BWI
"GM's $1,000 Per Truck Health-Care Tab Benefits Toyota"
UAW/FORD/GM/DODGE hurry and fix this before we all are driving Toyota F-150's, Nissan Silverado's or Kia Ram trucks
Quicken website no longer lists the Total Debt to Equity ratio for GM. They have the LT Debt to Equity, which is higher than the Japan makes, but no longer have the Total Debt / Equity listed - interesting.
Loren
DrFill
Now the current crop of leadership as well as the former employees are forced to deal with the mess. I wonder if a sharp attorney could make a class action against the former top management - would be very nice to see the people who did this have to take responsibility for their choices. :shades:
Greed, complacency, slouth, and incompetence. They planned this out like they would ALWAYS have 50% of the market, and the market would adjust to them, not the other way around. :sick:
It seems they're snapping to, but it may be too late. Hard to put in a salary cap, when everybody's making bank.
Or Job Bank.
DrFill
$3-13K profit advantage on the models they import because of "currency manipulation"- Not to open a old can of worms.
I gotta say one thing their are some very interesting
"pure capitalism" theories. :surprise:
-Rocky
P.S. Mexican autoworker's make around $2.00 an hour I've read a while back. I really doubt they are buying a used Yugo, let alone a Mercedes. :confuse:
-Rocky
Loren
Saw the first G5 TV commercial today, one year after car went on sale. Also saw the one millionth Honda commercial since the '07 Accord went on sale. At least Kokomo is now ranked as the most affordable housing market in the US. That is because so many auto worker layoffs have the market flooded with for sale signs. Wonder if that drives down property taxes and income taxes far enough to underfund the schools. Our Governor called Toyota in Japan asking for help due to the loss of so many jobs. I bet they laughed at us more for that than they did on Dec 7th.
The UAW pay here in Indiana is falling to $14.50 at Delphi. Nobody will be lured away to a higher paying job at the new Honda plant in Greensburg because they will be paying about the same. They told the story of a man with 3 kids who's family will suffer due to his pay being almost cut in half. It said the UAW got used to OT and got used to spending it instead of saving it. They said you can't go to night school and re-educate yourself when you work and raise 3 kids, so you will have to take the pay cut and suffer. They predict very few will quit when the wage drops because nobody will be offering anything close. It will take a hard lesson for Delphi to emerge from bankruptcy.
They were mostly offered $73,000 lump sum to retire early. Plenty took that deal, but a lot of them were the ones with only a year or two in or the ones with over 30 years in so they went directly onto pension with the $73k also. The pensions will be there no matter what because the federal gov will back it, forever. In a pension town, 90% of the homes are affordable to the median income earner which is $59k for Kokomo.
Most depressing thing I heard today is that a Saudi Mullah owns 18% of Fox TV network. Now I have to wonder more about Jaun Williams.