General Motors discussions

tlong

I can see that many posters here must have upper middle class jobs paying over $100k per year. Or they would see the fallacy of job switching to try and get ahead in this economy. Remember that you will need about $700,000 in your 401K to retire with the benefit I get from a Union job. I see too many people cashing out or borrowing against their 401k. If you depend just on Social Security you will be lucky to afford dog food and sleeping on the sidewalk.

I saw an interesting article recently that said people are driving themselves to death. Not a good topic for these boards.

The gist of the article was, take Driver#1. He buys a new $35K SUV (in today's dollars) every 3-4 years, trading in the previous one, and pays depreciation, fuel, insurance, and loan costs over the driving lifespan of his working life, from age 20 to age 65.

Take a different driver #2. He buys an 8 year old beater for his first car that costs $5K, he drives it 6 years (and pays for gas, depreciation, repairs (more than the new car), insurance). He sells it and with the money he saves on that first car, he buys a 3-4 year old family car and drives it for 8-10 years. Then he repeats, always buying a 3-4 year old car and driving it the 8-10 years.

If driver #2 invests the money he saves from not going with scenario #1, and he gets an average(historical) portfolio return, he ends up with $1.1 million dollars at age 65. This is for one car, if you have two drivers such as a married couple, you can double that amount.

So the cited figure above of $700K is pretty small when you figure out what sensible financial choices will do for you. Those cars are expensive. I'm glad somebody else is buying new ones so often.

m1miata

I was wondering about the pensions. What sort of backing or insurance is there. You mentioned the government will back the pensions. Have not heard of this before.
Loren

m1miata

No. What would be the grounds for a suit - Lack of foresight, or stupidity? Guess we can look to Washington D.C. for lawsuits then too.

Loren

stever

"PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of nearly 44 million American workers and retirees in 30,330 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans." link

I don't know about GM but chances are GM's US pension plan is covered.

m1miata

Our dollar is worth less than a Euro dollar. Don't see them buying USA cars, yet there is a currency advantage. Come to think of it, German cars have not gone up in price much. But then again, they are built around the World and not many in Germany these days. But the fact is, anything built in Europe will have an inflated Euro problem, wouldn't it? The Japan economy and stock markets kinda hit the skids, and thus some low interest rates to keep things afloat. When we dive, as we will again very soon, I imagine rate cuts will happen. And the dollar is not particularly strong these days. We manipulate the dollar and Japan will manipulate the Yen. It is all in the game. You play the best you can, even if you have to take to the ice with a player or two left in the penalty box. There is but one game; the one you are in at the time.
Loren

m1miata

Thanks for the link.

loren

lemko

The problem with Toyota is that they're relying more and more on temporary workers without benefits and stringing them along. Toyota is making them think they'll get permanent employment but keeping them temps for a long, long time. As long as they're temps, Toyota can mess with them and terminate them for any reason.

1487

Toyota and other foreign automakers always set up in rural areas where jobs are scarce. They know what they are doing in the long run. They know the jobs they provide are far better than any comparable jobs available to people without degrees and thus they will have plenty of leeway when it comes to setting up rules, wages, benefits, etc. I'm sure Toyota can keep using temporary workers forever if they so choose.

lemko

The way it was - You can get fired at GM on Friday and have a new job at Chrysler on Monday.

stever

UAW workers earn much more than college professors (Straightline)

m1miata

But the college professor can only tell me how my car should be put together according to the book. I still have no car

Both are over paid.
Loren

P.S. Of course if I was in such a position, I would gladly accept the income :shades:

stever

What's telling to me is that $50,000 per employee wage "advantage" that Toyota has over General Motors.

m1miata

That would explain some of the woes of car built in the 70's, 80's and 90's, though much was attributable to cost cutting through engineering cheap parts, or assembly techniques. Times have changed, and cars must have the right stuff when purchased and perform for many more years than those years when people had less expectations. From labor to management, there is little room for error.
Loren

m1miata

It is all pretty insane, if you stop to think about it. Over time this will self adjust in a World economy, and the auto worker will not be making as much money as your doctor. The current imbalance between pay for assembly of cars and other products will eventually close. If I had a good line job, I would put aways as much money as possible. The day will come when the jobs pay will half or less. Evidently the work done is pretty darn good, as over the last say five years cars are more and more trouble free. Good engineering, good parts, and assembly lines, and good employees. While everyone would love to see wages always advancing and a rosy tomorrow, I am sure the assembly line jobs will be going down now over time, and as I stated possibly to half or less.

If we do not have inflation, at least pain will be less for the American worker. A depression of jobs with inflation would really hurt.
Loren

xrunner2

What's telling to me is that $50,000 per employee wage "advantage" that Toyota has over General Motors.

Wonder how many U.S. citizens would be willing to work at an auto company for say $100,000 per year total package for a 40 hour work-week. Employee would be paid approx $50/hour and be hourly ($2000 per week) before taxes, and would be responsible for buying own insurance and living healthy lifestyle. Employee would only get paid for time at job and would have to schedule own time off for vacations. Sick time off would not be paid. Leave early in afternoon for Dr appointment is OK with scheduling, but only paid for amount of hours worked that day. Employee would kind of be like a contractor and would have to sign a contract to work for a specific term, say one year at a time. Would there be any takers on this deal in America? How many would jump at this opportunity?

plekto

Sounds like my last job. Except for 1/4 the pay.

Something is very wrong if they whine and complain about their jobs. Mos of us don't make nearly what they do.

1487

I dont think UAW people complain about their wages. They have to know better than that. I think their complaints center around the fact that they feel GM wants them to pay all the price for GM's current financial crisis. while I do agree their wages are unsustainable anyone here who acts like they would happily accept a pay or benefit cut is being ridiculous. You dont plan your life based on what someone else says you "should" makes, you plan your life based on what you do make. I think a whole lot of people are overpaid and teachers are underpaid, but that doesnt mean anyone is going to volunteer to have their salary cut to meet my expectations. Speaking of college professors, I feel they are vastly overpaid in many instances considering the amount of hours they work. I never met a stressed or overworked professor in college and I doubt any of them ever put in 40 hours.

andre1969

what are all the factors for "total compensation"? I could see wages, vacation time, paid holidays, health insurance, the company's portion of SS and Medicare, life insurance, disability insurance, pension, etc. Anything I'm missing?

I'm guessing these ~$150K annual figures for the Big Three autoworkers are really pushed up by pension promises, health insurance, etc. What would the typical hourly rate be?

dieselone

I think you are correct Andre. My wife gets a total compesation report at the end of each year. The total number which lists out all of the details and is about double what her salary is.

brightness04

Untenured professors tend to be very hard working. The tenured the ones, well, like you said. All the more proof that "temp" is a great way of getting people motivated. IMHO, some form of contract work term combined with stock vesting over time is a very sound work relationship that will keep workers motivated and focus workers and management onto the same page instead of being adversarial.

imidazol97

In other words,

those high figures for the union workers includes an amount for cost of retirement pay plus retirement healthcare benefits.

dieselone

those high figures for the union workers includes an amount for cost of retirement pay plus retirement healthcare benefits.


It should include all of the costs incured by the employer for that employee, i.e. Social Security, workman comp, retirement contributions(pension), vacation, sick days, paid holidays, overtime etc. and anything else I may have forgot.

imidazol97

I'd like to see the real figures for the 4 groups of workers. The proessors graph is probably an underestimate. They get all kinds of benefits including free tuition for their kids and family.

fezo

Not necessarily. My brother is a college professor. While his kids are entitled to a reduced rate tuition it is not free by any means.

dieselone

I'd like to see the real figures for the 4 groups of workers. The proessors graph is probably an underestimate. They get all kinds of benefits including free tuition for their kids and family.


I imagine it's an average, who knows how accurate it is. Some professors no doubt will utilize free tuition etc and some may not. Probably a wider range of salaries for the professors as well.

stever

utilize free tuition

Not tax free though. And many schools only partially waive tuition.

GM also provides tuition assistance, btw. (link)

gagrice

It should be based on a 40 hour work week without overtime. I seriously doubt that those figures are accurate. That would be a loaded rate of $72.59 per hour. That probably includes management costs as well. When we negotiated a $55 per hour package in 2005 it was considered one of the tops in Alaska. That included $7 per hour into the Union retirement and 3% into our 401K. Our hourly rate was $37.08.

You can figure that wage scale was done by a PHD. Everyone knows they are a dime a dozen.

dieselone

Hard to say w/o a breakdown of the figures, but it should include o/t. Before my wife went into management, she was paid hourly and her overtime was also included in the total costs when the total compensation report was provided for her.

gagrice

When comparing compensation with other wage earners the hours worked should be part of that figure. If the college professor worked 9 months 40 hours per week he may have made a lot more per hour than the GM line worker that was working 6 days a week for a year.

xrunner2

IMHO, some form of contract work term combined with stock vesting over time is a very sound work relationship that will keep workers motivated and focus workers and management onto the same page instead of being adversarial.

That's good. I have been in situations in past where workers had a job for life with lots of benefits and some were only concerned about doing bare minimum to get by. I have also been in contract situations where one has to perform very well in order to keep the job and get a contract renewal. As a contractor, you get paid for the hours you work. No holiday paid, and you pay for your own time off for vacation days. Also, you take care of your own insurance premiums. These conditions are self-motivating. Perhaps U.S. workers, both union and non, got lazy what with companies vying for workforce and offering many benefits during the latter half of last century.

Seems that there are some amount of nutball professors in our Universities taking class time to deliver their own agenda and indoctrinate their students accordingly rather than sticking to the course topics.

dieselone

True if your looking for cost per man hour, but if your looking at total compensation for a year it doesn't matter if the professor worked 1 hour or 4000.

gagrice

Seems that there are some amount of nutball professors in our Universities taking class time to deliver their own agenda and indoctrinate their students accordingly rather than sticking to the course topics.

I wanted to say that as well as a big complaint I hear from College kids. That is not ever seeing the professor they signed on to learn from. Student teachers seem to carry the load for many of the high priced professors. Many force you to buy their book and let you learn on your own. Why pay high tuition for that kind of education?

Unless of course GM is footing the bill for you to further your education.

m1miata

Sorry, but they should be thinking in terms of what they may be making in the future. If they do not plan on cuts, up to 50% over the next decade, then they may be in a world of hurt some day. The overpay and benefit packages over the years did contribute to the woes of GM, so they too are responsible for the success or failure of GM.

I would plan on living on half or less the wage, budget around that figure, and save any surplus for future needs.

Loren

dieselone

I wanted to say that as well as a big complaint I hear from College kids. That is not ever seeing the professor they signed on to learn from. Student teachers seem to carry the load for many of the high priced professors. Many force you to buy their book and let you learn on your own. Why pay high tuition for that kind of education?


When I was in college (90-94), I didn't always see my in underlevel general courses (biology, math etc), but in the courses that were directly related to my major, they always taught the course. Yes, I generally had to purchase a book that they either wrote (at least partially) or suggested.

Some professor were great and others weren't. Kind of like anything else I guess.

62vetteefp

Back to real news: While Hybrids are currently "in fashion" diesels may be making more inroads here. Unfortunately they will probably never make it into the mass market vehicles due to high cost ($3k-5K over gas). Probably stay in lux (over $30k) and truck vehicles.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070717/AUTO01/707170351/1148/AUTO01

The automaker Monday announced plans to buy a 50 percent stake in VM Motori S.p.A., an Italian diesel-engine maker owned by Bloomfield Hills-based Penske Corp.

The move comes a week after GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the company is looking to bring diesel passenger cars and trucks to the United States.

GM already is jointly developing a 2.9-liter, V-6 turbo diesel with VM Motori for its Cadillac CTS in Europe.

Despite paltry demand in the United States, GM is looking to launch some new offerings here as well as overseas. In a video blog on GM's Web site, Lutz said the automaker is developing a V-6 diesel for its crossover sport utility vehicles and passenger cars, and a 4.5-liter diesel V-8 for large SUVs and light trucks.

He cautioned, however, that clean air regulations make diesels a less-than-attractive solution to many consumers

"Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine?" Lutz asked. "Do not assume that the diesel engine is a panacea and is going to make everyone get to a fleet of 36 miles per gallon."

62vetteefp

wow, next article I read and it is on diesel vs hybrid.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070717/AUTO01/707170352/1148

Enthusiasm for gas-electric hybrid vehicles dipped among prospective car buyers during the past year, while interest in new, cleaner diesels was rising, according to a survey issued Monday.

The poll conducted by J.D. Power and Associates found that 50 percent of prospective car buyers are considering a hybrid, down from 57 percent a year earlier.

"In the 2006 study, we found consumers often overestimated the fuel-efficiency of hybrid electric vehicles, and the decrease in consideration of hybrids in 2007 may be a result of their more realistic understanding of the actual fuel economy," said Mike Marshall, director of automotive emerging technologies at J.D. Power.

By contrast, the arrival of cleaner diesel-powered vehicles with new emission-lowering technology has heightened interest in this category, he said. Twenty-three percent of respondents said they were considering a diesel, up from 12 percent in 2006.

Diesel-powered vehicles are about 30 percent more fuel-efficient than equivalent gas-powered cars.

dieselone

Well, I'd love to have a diesel Suburban or Expedition. Legit 20+would be nice. Not to mention the low rpm torque for towing. I don't think I'd want to pay an additional $5K for it though.

m1miata

Can't buy diesels in California. The exhaust from a diesel is a cause for lung cancer, they sound like a tractor and seem to cost more than other cars. Other than that, if not toooo slow, I guess a diesel is an alternative. Seems like you can get a lot of extra miles from those engines. I see a lot of those Mercedes old cars chugging along the road, belching out the soot.

Loren

gagrice

You can buy all the full sized PU truck diesels you like. You can buy any diesel car with 7500 miles on the odometer. There are dealers around the state that specialize in barely used diesel cars. They generally sell for over the new MSRP. Even the old Mercedes diesels should not smoke with CA diesel. It is ULSD. Now if GM gets their act together on diesel vehicles we will have another alternative. I will not buy any new car that is not diesel. The new diesels are so much more drivable than their gas counterparts.

bumpy

Didn't GM used to have a diesel subsidiary? One hopes the Fiat debacle taught GM a thing or three about entanglement with Italian companies.

rockylee

You did not get $73K with 30 years in that is false. You got with 30 years a $35K lump sum to retire. If you had under 27 years as of July of 2006 their was various options including half pay and college tution, $140K lump sum to seperate from the company. 27-29 years got to take a early retirement where they'd still be on the books until their 30th year. My father took that package.

gagrice, the traditional GM and Delphi retirement was 30 an out but that is no more pal, well at least at Delphi. :sick:

-Rocky

rockylee

Loren,

Not all the UAW member's have it as good as you think pal. Many UAW worker's like those at Delphi, are making $14/hr or less or a little more.

-Rocky

rockylee

The government will only back em 50% :sick:

-Rocky

rockylee

In other words,

those high figures for the union workers includes an amount for cost of retirement pay plus retirement healthcare benefits.

Exactly !!!!! I also do not believe the data from straightline is close to being accurate and is propoganda probably from the corporations. I'd be willing to bet the data used doesn't account for all the gains made in the stock market in 2006 which funds a good portion of the pension fund. If you stick a few hundred a week per employee into a large pot like a 401K account the return isgoing to be huge and grow over time. I guarantee you the data contained in that study leaves out all the gains oninvestment. Sure GM, for years didn't contribute to the pension fund but that shouldn't be the UAW worker's fault and GM, had to play catch up. It doesn't matter if they had a 401K or a define pension plan the UAW worker as a whole will end up using less corporate money in the long run in a define pension plan that takes 30 years to get than a 401K with a enhanced match of let's say 10-20% with weekly contributions over the same period of time. It's simple math.

STEVE, where did straightline get their data ??????????????????????

-Rocky

rockylee

UAW-GM veteran wage $27 an hour. Makes high $50K range base salary. So am I dumb enough to believe the "Benefits" alone cost GM, $85-90K a year for UAW worker's ??????????????

I didn't fall of the pickle boat folks. :confuse:

-Rocky

m1miata

Yeap, there is S.S. part, retirement pension, health care, jobs bank, and a whole lotta stuff which is in the total pay. Work in a dept. store and you get $7 an hour and nice little $50 bonus a Christmas time, if you are so lucky. Perhaps some health benefits, but they are getting more rare. That $27+ would be looking pretty darn good.
Loren

stever

where did straightline get their data

Sources are linked in the blog (Forbes, and two other blogs, but I didn't look to see their sources).

gagrice

That $27+ would be looking pretty darn good.

To whom?

The average Prius buyer according to Toyota makes $85,000 per year. You are looking at $56k per year at $27 per hour. Not many families getting by on that little. You would be lucky to buy an Aveo with that income.

My nephew just went to work for Dell in Austin. They paid his moving and gave him per diem. He has no college. Self taught on MS and Cisco products. Starting salary $85k per year.

$27 per hour is nothing to write home about. The gap between the classes must be widening very rapidly.

rockylee

The only reason why their is a jobs banks in the first place because GM, has shut down plant's like the OKC plant after sticking in what $400+ million into it the year before. I do not blame the UAW, for worker's being in the jobs bank. The UAW, has the jobs bank to protect it's membership from knee jerk reactions from the executive level. That is having people with low intellengence sitting at the top blowing money like a drunken sailor
(stole a quote from you)

I think spending $400 million one year and with in a year or two close the plant shows a lack of I.Q. and management skills. If people are willing to settle for $7/hr. in a department store they have little skills or ability to improve or are happy making that kind of wage. Theiris a huge skill difference between running a cash register and running and fixing a robot or machine. If you and your co-workers are unhappy with $7/hr. lasttime I checked we still have the right to organize inthis country and get a collective bargaining agreement.

If you are so upset that UAW worker's make a middle class income then why didn't you ever apply for a job at GM ???? Most of my elder's in these forums have had the oppertunity to move to where their was a GM plant and get a GM job. I was never so fortunate since they haven't hired any significant numberof employees since 1995' and I graduated in 97'. I guess those of you that despise the UAW, are slowly getting your wish and they are giving concessions. Delphi, has basically turned into a great job to a mediocre one with the remaining what 7 plants left here in the U.S. The company, won. Are you happy now ? :sick:

-Rocky

rockylee

I don't put much credibility into forbes magazine whichis a pro-corporate magazine. I saw one source from the Detroit News, a while back stating the same thing only the figure was $187,000 a year. Another was $177,000. :confuse:

-Rocky