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I don't see what is special about the 08 Malibu. Looks like a Saturn Aura inside and out with a few minor interior changes and a different front facia and rear design. Just another GM badge job IMO. Certainly a huge improvement, but the Aura isn't kicking the "snot" out of the competition, so how will the Malibu? Maybe if they sell a 3.6l LT model for $20k.
He went back to Buick (he said he had purchased 3 Buick's in a row now) to look at their new offerings. He mentioned this might be the last new car he ever buys (he is getting really old). He didn't buy a Buick this time around. He said they were still using the same old V6 which gets a measly 200 HP and lackluster gas mileage.
He ended up with a nice Hyundai Azera this time around. He got a whole lot more power and gas mileage compared to the Buicks, "near Toyota/Honda levels." Simply a more sophisticated advanced powertrain. He got the Limited edition, which means he gets all the options, bells, and whistles. It comes with big 17" wheels and tires. The fit and finish was very competent inside and looked good in and out. I'm impressed; though I haven't ridden or driven it, he said it was still comfortable over smaller bumps but not as soft on the big bumps.
If an old guy that bought 3 Buick's in a row doesn't go back to Buick, then Buick is doomed! That would be the equivalent of the Sony Playstation and MS Xbox losing their 12-25 age group.
Here's a hint, 8hp and 2mpg over comparable cars isnt a leapfrog. I have never in my life witnesses such camry worshipping. This car has been around for years and this is the FIRST one that ever came close to being a benchmark in power and performance and people are so excited that they are taking things overboard.
If that be the case than the 303hp you can get in the Impala is super great. I guess the Taurus would merit a great with 265hp- although I'm sure you will imply the 3hp advantage of the camry is significant.
As opposed to those big Rabbits the cops used to use....
Anyone can make a 300 HP engine, but to make it get 30 MPG would be something special (that's 30 MPG average in mixed driving).
Also, what's the weight of that engine with 303 HP. A lighter car with 269 HP will be faster and quicker and handle better than a like-car with 303 HP and much more weight.
Now I will preface this by saying I don't expect the Malibu to kick the snot out of the Camry and Accord. I think they'll sell boatloads more Malibus than they do Auras if only because the Malibu name is more instantly recognizable. That name is a plus for Chevy. It's enough to get people to look at it and if it is anything like the advance press they will sell.
These have been gone over, so if you have any questions, please read previous posts for more information.
With regards to GM's lineup, GM is mounting an improving lineup of cars, and I fully support their turnaround. "
Doesnt really matter if you work for Toyota now or not, your objectivity is out the window and you have yet to back up your claim that I was bashing Toyota without merit and essentially lying. The real reason you are hear is because you are disgusted by the notion that some people dont hold Toyota in the same esteem as you do and you come here to set the record "straight".
YOur claims about the Camry and Accord are simply hogwash. Objectively speaking they are not heads and shoulders above the competition. Furthermore you wont find one comparison test where the Camry and Accord finished above the Fusion, Altima or Aura. IF you know of such tests let me know. In fact, autoweek compared the Aura and Camry and liked the lowly Saturn better. I'm sure you have an excuse for that so I'll just wait for it.
Previous performance doesnt have squat to do with how the Accord and Camry stack up vs current competition. For the record I dont think the Camry has been a world beater in years, if ever. At least the 2003 Accord could claim to be a benchmark when it was new on the market. Both cars USED to have some real advantage over their competition but those days are numbered. In fact those days are gone for now. Perhaps the new Accord will rewrite the book but based on the picks I've seen its more of a 5 series clone than anything else.
his is fact, not conjecture or anything open to debate. This is why you continue to not provide any objective reasons for your claims that these two cars are head and shoulders above the rest.
"The Aura is a good car, but matching wits with the Camrys and Accords of the world is still a work in progress, as the market will attest to. "
Love that argument- does it apply to F150 vs Tundra? Of course not. PLease stop trying to use sales as justification when you know that argument only goes one way- when its in favor of an import. I would be laughed at if I suggested sales "attest" to the fact that the Ram and F150 are far better than the Tundra. There is a reason the F150 outsells the Tundra, but it isnt because its a superior truck.
Loren
They've been consistently high quality long lasting, and dependable, something no other midsize car can match.
Loren
Higher prices, boring styling, lack of handling, lack of features (accord only), lack of configurations, reliability that is about the same as other cars (all cars are relatively reliable), etc.
The list does go on and on. I'll pass on the Accord and camry every time. Resale value is the only reason to buy them unless you want a hybrid. They are the car choices for those who dont care about cars and treat them as appliances.
first of all its rare that anyone here even makes such a claim. Secondly anyone with common sense knows most cars cant outsell the accord and camry for capacity reasons and dealership strength reasons. You have never heard me make any such statements and I doubt many others here have as well.
"I don't see what is special about the 08 Malibu. Looks like a Saturn Aura inside and out with a few minor interior changes and a different front facia and rear design. Just another GM badge job IMO."
I dont see whats so special about the new accord, it looks like an Aura from the outside- or is that a 5 series that came out in 2003. Badge job? The Malibu has totally different sheetmetal, different gauges, wheels, dashboard, etc. Yeah, its a carbon copy of the Aura. Statements like that show why the GM bashers here have little credibility. I mean if you are going to bash everything they do, at least use realistic reasons. The Malibu and Aura look as similar as the ES350 and Camry. Someone here went to great lengths to explain why the Camry and ES were not badge jobs.
Edmunds would disagree with you.
And Motor Trend.
And Car & Driver.
And the buying public. :surprise:
As far as nailing the family sedan by being the unquestioned benchmark, Camry did it in 1992. Accord in 1998. They were virtual perfect models for their time. :shades:
Regarding F-150 vs Tundra, it's apples and oranges. The Ford, and the Chevy, will sell more for many years to come. And that's fine.
But you can show, in actual practice, how one vehicle having a 6-speed tranny over a 4-speed, how towing 10,800 vs 9k, how having safety features over not having safety features, and class exclusive first (largest box, most rear leg room, telescopic steering, 4-piston calipers, etc. can yield tangible differences in what a truck can and can't do. Trucks are all about what they can and can't do.
If a car or truck sells a lot, that's fine. But if it sells a lot, and is significantly behind the competition, it's noteworthy. This goes for vehicles like the Silverado and F-150. Toyota had benchmarks, and has jumped over them. That's what had to be done.
Now you can list all the ways Toyotas are significantly behind the competition, so you have the floor.....
DrFill
I know more about why the camry and accord are successful than you do. I didnt deny anything. BTW, if you look at ratings here at edmunds and other customer satisfaction ratings you will often see CAmry and Accord are not at the top. If you have some results that show otherwise let me know. As for reliability- all we can say is that the two cars get good reviews in CR- thats about it. When you look at other sources they often are not at the top, even if they are close. I cant remember the last time I've seen a camry or accord at the top of JD powers intitial or 3 year reliability rankings. Oh and lets not forget Toyota and HOnda dealers never get top marks in customer service surveys by JD powers and others.
YOu are ignoring quite a bit yourself.
Camry and accord sell based on reputation and resale value- period. The merits of the vehicles beyond that matter little to most people which is why you continue to get such dull cars that rarely push the envelope of design or performance.
"They've been consistently high quality long lasting, and dependable, something no other midsize car can match"
You know that to be a fact? The Altima and Impala havent been reliable? Fusion? They have been aroung longer which is a credit to them, but that doesnt mean they are the only reliable cars on the road. To be honest I fail to see why people like you place so much value on how good the accord and camry were 10 or 20 years ago. Back then they probably did have an advantage in quality and refinement, but this is 2007. The competition is stiff and by and large most cars in this class are very close to each other. The advantage Toyota had 20 years ago is of little consquence to me. I'm not going to buy one because the 1990 CAmry was much better than the 1990 Chevy Corsica or Beretta. Bottomg line is 2007 Camry aint really better than 2007 Aura or 2008 Malibu and thats all I care about.
........ What???
Is this one of those parallel universe things where something happened in a time warp, and we lost you.
neroL
Edmunds would disagree with you.
And Motor Trend.
And Car & Driver.
And the buying public"
provide some examples, thats all I ask. Its a simple request really although its one you cant fulfill since what I said was true. I'll wait.....
Tundra didnt leapfrog anyone except in powertrain. I named all the reasons why your claim was bogus before and you didnt respond. You talk of 4 piston calipers but dont explain why the Silverado braked shorter and beat the Tundra in a test. You never addressed the lack of boxed frames, the lack of configurations, the lack of class leading fuel economy, the lack of a flat load floor in the rear, the cheap plastic interior, the lack of onstar, the lack of a complex 4WD system that can route power fore and aft and left to right. Sorry, but a vehicle that lacks all that didnt leapfrog squat. The Silverado and Tundra are both good trucks- I know you cant admit that GM and Toyota can both turn out good vehicles that are evenly matched, but that is the case. Sorry, get over it.
You seem to be forgetting that GM had bencmarks (old Silverado and F150) and jumped over them, thats what they had to do and it paid off.
Wow, 303hp from a V8 is super great? Then the 306HP 2GR-FSE from Toyota and 330HP VQ37 from Nissan is super ubber fantastic then...
BTW, both of them are V6. :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
If that were true then all of the repair shops I used to frequently visit when I owned a domestic automobile should be out of business by now, but they aren't. All of the tow truck companies should be out of business too, or at least most of them!
What you find to be "relatively acceptably reliable," I'd probably find to be unacceptably pathetic reliability.
If all cars are so reliable, why don't they all have 15 year 250K mile warranties?
Actually it's the other way around.
Many of us do consider the ES and Camry are badge jobs so naturally we'll consider the Aura and new Malibu as badge jobs as well.
Got it?
It's interesting that you don't consider the ES and Camry are badge jobs given that you have said how knowledgeable you are about cars...
You did say you haven't met a single dealer that's more knowledgeable as you are right? I don't want to put words into you mouth like some people do here...
What's that??? I couldn't hear you. The crickets are too loud!!
1. Shifter is center console mounted instead of steering column. All police cruisers have steering column mounted shifter so the space over at center console can be reserved for equipments such as laptops.
2. Toyota is a foreign brand. Doesn't matter where its built as long as GM/Ford/Chrysler are still making sedans the government will continue to use them.
3. Camry is too expensive. It does not make a good fleet car.
4. Toyota can barely keep up with the demand of the Camry so they have no interest what-so-ever to get into the police cruiser business.
Car and Driver ranked the Camry just barely better than the Sebring, which came in last. The Aura, Altima, Optima, and Accord were much more tightly bunched in the points race.
However, when it comes to automobile purchases (Construction company) they almost always buy F-150's and maybe 2% Chevy's. I think they do this because F-150's are initially cheap, cheaply made, cheap materials, and generally economy line trucks. However, the owner being from Texas and having served in the Navy would never consider not buying American as I see it, even if it was far more economical in the long run (which Toyota trucks would obviously be).
The company admitted recently that "repair costs were rising and above expectations." So now they are going to use Enterprises "maintenance/repair" service; same as Enterprises' own fleet. Funny, they'd of saved SO much money by simply buying Toyota's; both in gas and repair bills.
Our own Edmunds ranked the V6 Camry ahead of Accord V6, Sonata V6 and Fusion V6 in the V6 Family Sedan Comparison Test
Also, the Hybrid Camry also won out the 2007 Hybrid Sedan Comparison Test from Edmunds. It finished ahead of the Altima Hybrid and Aura Hybrid.
At least Camry, and other import midsizers, did win their fair share of compros. Can anyone show me if the Malibu, Aura, G6 has win any?
I've seen plenty of ads in mags for Toyota fleet sales.
Remember, Poilce and taxi sales are almost the same as retail sales, with 2 exceptions:
1. Low profit margin, compared w/ higher optioned models on dealer lots.
2. You will NEVER see a former police or taxi vehicle for sale on a dealer lot as used, as the vehicle gets used as it was intended for for 90-100% of it's life expectancy, unlike a rental car, which is used for 12-18 mos, and sold as a program vehicle. THAT FACT ALONE makes it a "GOOD" sale.
"Date posted: 03-27-2006"
Ahh, I see. Aura has been out, what 10 months and nobody did a high end comparo to see how it stacks up yet???? HMM....What could they be hiding......
Accord wins every C&D family car comparison, and is 10 Best winner.
Camry won Edmunds comparison here last fall, so you can find it here on this site. That can join the other half dozen Toyota wins here.
MT voted Camry COTY last fall.
And Camry has been #1 seller 8 of the last 9 years, and can sell 500k this year, the first time any car can sell that many in 30 years (Chevy Caprice).
Accord was champion before Camry.
DrFill
The comparo I am waiting to see is the one with 2008 Accord EX V6, Camry XLE V6, Altima 3.5 SL and the new Malibu V6.
He drives a banged up '93 cavalier that he bought 6 years ago and drives 80 miles a day. I'm sure his degrading of American engineering is based more on it than any recent comparison.
The cobalt is not as refined as the beetle but the payment is $100 a month lower. It's hard to justify a new car for saving gas at Cobalt prices and the foreign ones seem to make you trade saving gas for feature content if you want to get out the door for under 17k. I still see the G5 at $17k loaded with auto, power everything, ABS, cruise, sunroof, 228 watts 7 spkrs, CD, remote start and XM at 32 mpg as a reasonable alternative to a 35 mpg civic DX with absolutely no options for $15850 plus tax. I'm not saying the full featured G5 is better or equal, I'm just saying it's closer than some know.
If your out to save gas, that means you drive lots of miles, and to go without all the nice features for all those miles isn't my choice. 2006 stats for US: 1.42 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled.
I can't believe they are completely different sheet metal when the belt lines to me look nearly identical. If they are completely different, GM wasted their money, because from a picture I can't tell a difference. Plus the Aura and 08 Malibu are both being built at the KC factory. I wonder if Aura sales will decline when the new Malibu arrives? Wouldn't surprise me.
I had to go relook at the Aura dash to realize they are not as close as I thought. I looked up the 08 Malibu, and the first thing that came to my mind, was damn, that looks a lot like an Aura. I'm not alone, I've seen some other posters on the 08 Malibu thread say the same thing.
Call me a basher all you want, but I have two GM products in my driveway. I only state my EXPERIENCE with GM vehicles which obviously has been different than yours.
I've rarely made a comment either way regarding Toy/Hon only when I actually sampled the vehicle.
Quite frankly, I don't care if the ES250/Camry are badge jobs or not. IMO they basically are, but neither cars interest me. All I know is both cars are highly regarded. Do they deserve it? I don't know, I've never owned one.
And I'll stand by my original statement. I've been on and off these boards for probably 7 years. The savior for GM has always been around the corner. I will say things are definitely better at GM. They actually have a car I'd consider buying. The Aura and the upcoming CTS.
Yeah, true. Saturn was a bright light for 5-7 yrs when they came out, But for the last 20 or so years it's been SUV's SUV's and more SUV's. The cars, while I enjoyed my '88 Regal, '96 SL2, and '99 Ultra, have been more of an afterthought.
Something, though, just seems different this time. This past winter and spring, at the Int'l auto shows, the experts were really enthusiastic about the products they saw
(Malibu, CTS, Enclave, Camaro). I've read C&D for 25 yrs, and GM is getting more and more praise from them (not over the top). I'm really interested to see what happens over the next 18 months.
grbeck,
I know with out a doubt Keith, drives as swiftly as the next person. Keith, is not that old but likes the ride and comfort not to mention the reliability of Buick's. I had a Lucerne CXS, driver pass me like I was standing still the other day on my way to Gun Lake.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Since your quick to point out when someone is wrong. I'll return the favor. The last gen Camry indeed had variable valve timing on all 3 available engines available i.e. 2.4Lvvt 4cyl, 3.0VVT v6, and 3.3vvt v6 (SE model). The Camry started using VVT in the 2.4L in 2002.
While making the 3.6 standard probably would be a good idea. I don't know about offering a v6 hybrid. IMO, the whole point of offering a hybrid is to maximize economy. A v6 won't help in that area.
Also, making the Aura more upmarket is a risk too. Can Saturn sell a 30K+ vehicle. We'll find out with the Outlook. Haven't seen many yet, but still maybe to soon to tell.
Engine wise, the 3.6 V6 is very good, and at least in my test drive, the 6 sp. tranny performed well. I wish the knee had a little more room for the gas pedal side, as in perhaps an inch or two more inside width, and the emergency brake is one of those things " so called nitpicky thing" but nonetheless something I dislike and thus important to me. Overall, I rate it close to the current Accord, with a bit more HP and kinda a neat paddle 6sp. transmission, with good steering feel a notch below Accord, and better than most. For cornering, it seemed pretty close to me to the Accord, but you only push it so far on a road test. I would not say better than Accord in respect to cornering. On the road I do believe road sound is better handled by the Aura. I am sure the Camry will be quiet too. Interior is something I still think Accord is a little better at, but the New Malibu is going to have some interesting curves to it, and perhaps an edge over the competition. Not out yet, so who knows. So, how much HP with the New Accord for '08?
As a family car + fun car, the New Malibu is gonna have some tough times I think in the comparo. As a fun car, to sport around in, the 3.6V6 will be right up there with the rest.
Loren
The Aura Hybrid looks like a waste of time -- the current one doesn't get all that great of gas mileage. Perhaps consider a diesel version for economy ???
Loren
I wonder if the Lucy will be more popular once the DTS goes RWD? You know, do to price and those wanting FWD in the snow belt.
Loren
Loren
Give it a little more time - lots of dealer shops really are hurting:
"Today's cars, in comparison to cars of the past, rarely break. In fact today's worst cars are better than the best cars of say 20 years ago."
Are today's cars too good?
The article mentioned platinum plugs. Isn't copper a better conductor of electricity and thus really a better performer. OK, it doesn't matter.
Loren
But you can show, in actual practice, how one vehicle having a 6-speed tranny over a 4-speed, how towing 10,800 vs 9k, how having safety features over not having safety features, and class exclusive first (largest box, most rear leg room, telescopic steering, 4-piston calipers, etc. can yield tangible differences in what a truck can and can't do. Trucks are all about what they can and can't do.
If a car or truck sells a lot, that's fine. But if it sells a lot, and is significantly behind the competition, it's noteworthy. This goes for vehicles like the Silverado and F-150. Toyota had benchmarks, and has jumped over them. That's what had to be done.
Now you can list all the ways Toyotas are significantly behind the competition, so you have the floor.....
Let's see...
No Rear Locker
No Heavy Duty Version
No Diesel
No Fully Boxed Frame
GMT900 has superior interiors
GMT900 has smaller gap tolerances
GMT900 get's better gas mileage
GMT900 sells without $3500 plus rebates
Dr. Fill, you can pretend you know everything there is to know about the midsize car market and explain how the Camry is God's gift to the midsize market but if you think the Tundra has leapfrogged the competition, I would suggest that you have never owned a truck. The Tundra is a solid full size truck, but it is far from the class leader. When they pony up and offer an HD, Diesel, a real frame and can sell it on merit without massive rebates, let me know. I can't wait to see how big the rebates will be when the new 2009 F-Series and Ram debut along with the dual mode hybrid GMT900's.