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Same goes for their model lineup:
Chevy=The working man's car
Pontiac=Sport/Luxury: More sport than luxury (much more)
Buick=luxury/Sport: More luxury than sport
Caddy=High end everything!!!
Saturn=Entry level euro styling
SAAB=High end euro
How about...
Translated: The Tundras are so frigging hot that all trannys are shipped to the assembly line so the dealers have to take a back seat. Huh?
Hey, 2 can play this game you know.
BTW, I still don't understand why this post is on the GM board... :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
Please, let us love our GM vehicles in peace
The list does go on and on. I'll pass on the Accord and camry every time. Resale value is the only reason to buy them unless you want a hybrid. They are the car choices for those who dont care about cars and treat them as appliances.
So you say the Accord and Camry are nothing but appliances but at the same time they are competition to the Malibu like it or not. The 98-03 and 04-07 Malibu on the exterior were just as conservative as competing Accord or Camry's at the time in my opinion. I don't look at the 07 Camry as an appliance since the exterior looks more expressive than past Camry's. In my opinion, The 08 Malibu does not look any better than the 07 Camry on the exterior although I will give you that the 08 Accord Sedan exterior isn;t that great.
There is nothing luxury about Pontiac. If Pontiac can be considered as luxury then Hyundai should be one as well...
There is nothing sport about Buick. If Buick can be considered as sport then the Crown Vic should be considered as a sports sedan.
LOL, Crown Vic as sports sedan, man sometimes I even crack myself up...
The suggestion to make the so called "Toyotaphiles" here to stop mentioning about Toyota is legitimate since this is a GM board. But since this is a public forum you can't make the so called "Toyotaphiles" to stop discuss about GM here.
I'm not kidding when I can honestly say I personally know 5 people besides myself that have had a GM 1/2ton trans failure at well under 100k and, yes one failed around 2k miles. We've hashed this out before. The 4l60e trans has a issues with premature failure too. I can give lots of examples if you like
Compare the Impala, Grand Prix, and Lacrosse. All 3 are variants of the old GM W platform. Even though these "sister cars" are similar, they should carry totally different personalities.
The Impala should carry luxury in the LT and sport in the SS, yet not to the extent of either Poniac or Buick (and priced accordingly)
The GP should be more luxurious than any Chevy, yet not to the extent of Buick along the lines of BMW.
The Lacrosse should be a little bit performance minded (all 3 can come w/ a 3.8 or the 5.3), yet have all the ammenities that should be expected of a Buick.
Totally agree, couldn't say it better myself.
However, I do like what GM is doing right now with Buick and Pontiac though. The Pontiac brand should be all RWD performance sedans/coupes (hint: drop the G5 and Torrent, make the next G6 RWD). On the other hand Buick can keep its luxury FWD root to compete with the such like Volvo, Acura (given that it stays FWD/AWD) and VW. As long as Buick stays as a pseudo-luxury FWD (with AWD option) brand it should be able to distinguish itself from Cadillac.
I think with the Pontiac focusing on performance and Buick taken care of the entry luxury, the 2 brands should work very well together in a shared showroom.
GMC to me seems like the odd man out...
If you go to the Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work? discussion, the last few posts are about GM.
So - easy solution - we could just swap GM for Toyota in the discussion title and vice versa. :P
There's only 2 legitimate trucks on the market, Sir, and neither is made in Japan (or Texas if you wanna get technical)
Chevy=Malibu and a decent truck
Pontiac=rebadged Malibu, more or less offeres a samll car choice for customers at a GMC dealership
Buick=luxury/Sport: offers a larger car choice at GMC dealerships
Caddy=High end Chevys that are ok to lease, but lunacy to buy
Saturn=Entry level euro styling on a rebadged Malibu
SAAB=rebadged Malibu for people who would never dream of owning a "domestic" car
Looking at SUV sales numbers, looks like people are starting to look at economy as the last numbers I saw on Autosite showed the CRV on top. All the smaller SUVs had a big jump in June and the big SUVs dropped pretty big. Looks like the Acadia will do well.
Can we just swap Drfill for a thread to be named later???? :P :P :P
Or "Why Toyota shouldn't buy GM at 0%""
Or "How to sell enough trucks to make GM blink."
Or "I came all the way to a GM forum, and all I got was Cooter"
or.....
DrFill
You could've went to a Toyota forum and got Cooties...
I don't believe the government would allow Toyota to buy GM outright. Too big of an industrial company to let foreign interests own.
Untrue! The Holden Rodeo uses the 3.6HF with a torquey tune, but GMNA is too ornery to put a Cadillac engine in a smaller pickup.
That's up from earlier forecasts of a 25 percent improvement and would give the big SUVs better mileage than some mid- and full-size, gasoline-power family sedans. It also would be better than so-called crossover SUVs that are stealing sales from truck-based SUVs such as Tahoe because crossovers typically use less fuel.
The Tahoe and Yukon, due in showrooms in the fall, will be the first full-size gasoline-electric hybrid SUVs. The so-called dual-mode hybrid system was jointly developed with Chrysler Group and BMW, which plan to offer it in vehicles next year. GM will offer it next year on Cadillac Escalade, then on Chevy and GMC full-size pickups. Saturn models will get a version later.
Other brands' hybrid SUVs show bigger in-town gains – 50 percent to 80 percent better than similar gasoline models – but sacrifice some truck attributes, such as towing capacity or four-wheel-drive capabilities. The GM SUVs are able to tow up to 6,200 pounds, vs. 8,200 pounds for gasoline-powered GM SUVs. And the hybrid SUVs will use a conventional four-wheel-drive system with low-range gears suitable for low-speed challenges such as sand or mud.
My question will the people pay for the mpg even though the truck looks like a non hybrid. Very scary.
My younger son calls the Toyota Prius a "hippie car," and he has a point. Not that Prius drivers are hippies. Toyota says that typical buyers are 54 and have incomes of $99,800; 81 percent are college graduates. But, like hippies, they're making a loud lifestyle statement: We're saving the planet; what are you doing?
This helps explain why the Prius so outsells the rival Honda Civic Hybrid. Both have similar base prices, about $22,000, and fuel economy (Prius, 60 miles per gallon city/51 highway; Civic, 49 mpg city/51 highway). But Prius sales in the first half of 2007 totaled 94,503, nearly equal to all of 2006. Civic sales were only 17,141, up 7.4 percent from 2006. The Prius's advantage is its distinct design, which announces its owners as environmentally virtuous. It's a fashion statement. Meanwhile, the Civic hybrid can't be distinguished by appearance from the polluting, gas-guzzling mob.
I found a site selling the OEM belt for a DSM for $75, and an HKS kevlar belt for $175. I very much doubt any car comes from the factory with one.
Unless GM does something stupid and makes the hybrid version way too expensive (can you say Quadrasteer?), they will sell just fine. As for appearance, put a really obvious aero kit on them and a big chrome "Hybrid" badge in the center of the grille.
Loren
Loren
Are they really going to build a G6 RWD. If so, could they please make the Camaro off such a smaller frame. Light and sporty, smaller pony.
Loren
Car and Driver gets some pretty optimistic figures for 0-60 there. I would say a half tic faster than a V6 Camry, if that is some victory of sorts.
Best to buy a GTO for those 0-60 launches (4.6). Good RWD and plenty of HP. :shades:
Loren
Wonder what the drag coefficients is on those two cars? The LaCrosse looks sleeker.
Loren
Loren
How many full size pickups have you had with a timing belt? I would prefer the GM 4.8 although I would choose the 5.3 since it get's the same gas mileage as the 4.8 and had better power.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=121824
We can all be fans, and pick and choose the best truck. But the people's vote is all that matters, and it seems they aren't impressed with this brand new truck. GM didn't expect this.
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svtruck.asp
Yes, people vote with their wallets. Take a look at Sales for all of 2007 so far (source - Automotive News):
F-Series - 355,438
Silverado - 310,896
Ram - 185,257
Sierra - 99,293
Tundra - 82,840
Titan - 33,073
To me, the most impressive here is GM by far. They have the lowest incentives and have gained market share. Ford and Chrysler have high incentives, but they have new trucks due in 2009. Toyota has high incentives on their truck in its first year and they still will not hit their goal of 200,000. How much incentives will they need in 2009 to move the same volume when Ford and Chrysler have new entries? If GM had the same incentive spending in June that Ford / Chrysler / Toyota had, their numbers would have been huge. Why do that though? It lowers profit and erodes resale value. GM seems to be approaching this market like Toyota does the car market. They know they have the best product and they don't need to have a firesale to sell it.
I thought sales were supposed to go up when you make something better?
Tundra sales have gone up 44%.
I guess gas prices lower demand of all full-size trucks except Tundra.
GM is giving away over $3600. There's plenty of cash there too.
Now they're gonna set a record with 0% plus cash.
I really want GM to stabilize, and field a winner! It makes Toyota, and America, look pretty pathetic when we can't even sell a pick-up truck anymore!
But with the Silvy, it looks like they still have work to do. :sick:
DrFill
As for GM you are so right, they need not give away the product to hold market position. Looks like the price is about correct, so less discounting is required. The concentration has to be on keeping customers loyal by providing good support, durable trucks, decent gas mileage, and matching as many different needs in trucks as possible. The ads for trucks look pretty good, BTW. Now it is up to the UAW to lower the cost of building these trucks. GM doesn't need a some profits over the next years, they need enough to pay down debt and shore up a lot things, while engineering new and exciting products. The reliance on trucks and SUVs may have neared an end, though they still are doing well with the SUV lines. If Toyota has a goal of selling 200K trucks, they will just do that, if it is cost effective, and makes sense to move into a whole line of vehicles like GM. They seem to think it is the right move at the right time. Be assured, it not like this Pope is infallible thing, Toyota has and will make some mistakes along the way. They came to America with the wrong cars, backed on out, then came on back into it again and the rest is history. They will make some mistakes in building large trucks, no doubt. But they do have time, money, research and a reputation of being a sound company -- looks like with a mind set on doing it, they will given time.
Let the product do the talkin'. GM larger trucks seem to be doing OK overall. Not hearing the same for the smaller truck, which they need to redo A.S.A.P. in my view.
Loren
General Motors Corp. will add a third shift and about 500 temporary workers at its plant near Lansing where it builds crossover vehicles, but it also is cutting jobs and pickup truck production at a plant in Pontiac.
GM said the Pontiac downsizing is due to a slumping pickup market nationwide, and the increase at the Delta Township plant near Lansing is due to rising demand for the Buick Enclave, Saturn Outlook and GMC Acadia crossover vehicles.
The plant, which employs about 2,800 hourly workers, makes the eight-passenger crossover vehicles which came out in April. Sales of all three took off in June, GM said, with dealer orders for the Buick seven times more than the plant could produce on two shifts.
"There are places in the country that dealers haven't even seen one yet," said Pete Nico, GM's vehicle line director for the crossovers. "The trucks are pulling in, and the customers are walking away with them. When dealers do see a shipment arrive, they don't have anything to leave on their lots."
Sales of crossovers, which have sport utility vehicle attributes but are built on more fuel efficient car underpinnings, are growing rapidly as the market shifts away from gas-guzzling truck-based vehicles.
I thought sales were supposed to go up when you make something better?
Tundra sales have gone up 44%.
I guess gas prices lower demand of all full-size trucks except Tundra.
GM is giving away over $3600. There's plenty of cash there too.
Now they're gonna set a record with 0% plus cash.
I really want GM to stabilize, and field a winner! It makes Toyota, and America, look pretty pathetic when we can't even sell a pick-up truck anymore!
But with the Silvy, it looks like they still have work to do.
$3600 is not alot when Ford/Chrysler/Toyota have more than $5000 on the hood. GM only has %0 on the old GMT800's. Toyota is up because their sales were pathetic with the previous version. Why should GM have a firesale like Ford/Chrysler/Toyota? They are selling the same volume as last year with alot smaller rebates then they had in 2006. This is the same formula Toyota uses in all other markets. They also have a dual mode hybrid coming out, and a new diesel for the light duty models. The GMT900 is the class of the field. The Tundra is clearance merchandise in year 1. It has the same rebates as Ford and Chrysler models that are more than 5 years old. You can spin this to be a success all you want, but for the amount of money Toyota spend on the new plant and the huge advertising dollars, this is not one of Toyota's great successes. Maybe the 4th gen will do it for them.
I've never had a fullsize with a timing belt. I currently have a Suburban with the 5.3. All I was saying is a timing belt wouldn't scare me off.
In a truck between the Toyota 4.7 and GM 4.8, it would be an easy decision. The 4.7 is much smoother and has it's torque peak at 1400rpm lower. That be my choice.
I think he's right. I live near the University of Illinois. When ever I drive near where the professors live, Prius's are a dime a dozen. I pull up in my Suburban and they generally will give me a nasty look.
Yesterday, I counted at least 6 Prius's during my 2 mile round trip to the store.
And I have lots of friends that have the Prius models and love them- for whatever reason, be it a social/political statement, excellent mileage, novelty appeal. Maybe replaced the Volvo as the vehicle of choice for this type of buyer.
Toyota has learned, quickly, that NO COMPANY can sell a full-size truck without heavy incentives. GM started this after 9/11, and that train has no stops.
Toyota DOES get the benefit of the doubt, from the well-informed because they NEVER give vehicles away. The doemstics have to have a raging Fire Sale just to saty in business at this point. About half of Toyota's lineup has no incentives at all!
When in Rome do as the Romans do.
This truck's job is to, eventaully, approach 300k units before it's next redesign. Toyota is not ready, today, to sell that many, and if sales accelerate at this pace, incentives will come down next year, only because supply will be greatly diminished.
Tundra sales have gone from a record 17k+ to 21k+, and if Tundra will sell that much, Toyota will have to make a significant adjustment at the plant to keep up. 16k a month was the goal initially.
YOU can spin it however YOU like. If they pass 200k this year, which would be a more than 50% increase YTD, the Tundra would be one of their greatest success in recent times, if only because Toyota has no history making an acceptable full-size truck, and going against a redesigned GM truck, which should be doing better against the Tundra than it should. :surprise:
This truck can outsell Sierra this year.
DrFill
Also, I just read that Buick sells more cars in China than the states and that China is getting a new Park Avenue (rwd?). Apparently, Buick dealers in the states passed on the new Park Avenue because they were worried that it would hurt Lucerne sales.
CNN/Money:
"According to the chief economist of the Mortgage Bankers Association, mortgage delinquencies now cluster under two very different categories. The first consists of home owners buffeted by personal problems, such as job loss, divorce or illness. That is more likely to occur in regions suffering systemic economic problems, areas where plants have closed or undergone mass layoffs. That is happening today in many older industrial towns in the Midwest, where the auto industry has been taking its lumps."
"...the nation's largest mortgage lender, attributed a big drop in profits to a spike in delinquencies among prime borrowers of "second-lien loans," including home equity loans and home equity lines of credit. These loans were often "piggybacked" onto first mortgages. They were also taken out by prime - but overburdened - borrowers to help pay high housing bills or fund their lifestyles." Wonder how big a part of the lifestyle thing is buying overpriced foreign cars/SUVs?
Uh sure and how much is the result of buying overpriced domestic cars/SUVs? Are you saying that even though I find the Buick LaCrosse ugly inside and out, unexciting, older technology, etc., I should buy it instead of a Mazda6/Altima to support the Midwest economy? And by the way, since the high tech company I work for has 65% of our sales from outside North America, what if foreign countries felt the same way?
Loren
Loren
Add Riviera. But, a new Buick Riv would have to be on par with the classy one of the mid-60's. Riviera is a great name and of course one thinks of the beautiful Mediterranean shore. What a shame not to reuse that name.
GM did better job at naming cars decades ago. Today, we get enclave, acadia, g8, g6, g5, etc.
Pontiac still has a good non-tarnished list of unused names that could be recyled instead of upcoming g8.
When g8 is out next year, maybe Pontiac will do a stupid "Duh" type commercial with someone buying another brand car saying, "Darn, I could have had a g8".