Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I did not "dig it up" it was on the AP wire.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Looks like we should boycott Nokia for financing such a farce of an expedition. Just like all the MM/CC scientific data. FOLLOW THE MONEY. From Al Gore down it is a SCAM.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I was thinking of launching an expedition into PA this weekend to measure the snow depth. In all of recorded history it has never snowed so early and so much in mid-Oct. PA seems so much easier to get to and the accomodations and food much better than trekking to the arctic.

    I'm thinking of contacting that balloon-guy in CO to help me roundup some AP people to get my expedition on the AP-wire. :D
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...I am not giving up my vehicle so a caribou can live..."

    You still don't get it do you?

    The GW crowd want you to give up EVERYTHING, including your life so that a caribou can live. That is the ultimate end to this madness. :sick:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Godspeed Kernick, Godspeed !! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    oldfarmer you just reminded me of one of my favorite Guess Who songs, 'Guns, Guns, Guns.'

    "The eagles are all gone and no more caribou, oh no eagles all gone and no more caribou...eagles are all gone and no more caribou. Godspeed Mother Nature, I never really wanted to say goodbye. Godspeed Mother Nature, never really wanted to say goodbye."

    Sorry for this rock-n-roll sequeway, but, man, I thought I was listening to one of my Guess Who CD's there for a second!

    Oh, and kernick, you may want to be careful with that particular contact in Colorado, man! :P

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • bpraxisbpraxis Member Posts: 292
    Hello everyone and I hope that you are having a great weekend.

    Many scientists now seem to agree that 98 percent of our climate variability is due to solar activity. At least not the ones living off the largess of government grants courtesy of the US taxpayer. At least they could send us a thankyou note, LOL.

    The global warming scheme is collapsing due to all the recent data showing the earth to be cooling over the last ten years.

    The gambit of Global Warming is not about climate but control over your property and your life. The same is true of the health care debate which does not seem to have much to do with health care.

    The green movement was the perfect vehicle for all the displaced collectivists who where discredited by the collapse of Communism worldwide.

    When will we learn from history?

    There seems to be a part of the gene pool that have a sole function to thin the herd. A self destructive gene of some sort.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Good post.

    Obviously you are talking about the snake oil salesmen who are running the show, and have a lot to gain, control wise and financially.

    What I can't understand are all the unwitting glazed eyed lemmings who have fallen for this load of manure and are heading for the cliff at breakneck speed. All of the accumulating evidence seems to have no effect on them. :confuse:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • bpraxisbpraxis Member Posts: 292
    Thank you for your nice comment and articulate contribution.

    As you know the indoctrination process has been continuing for a long time through our schools and media.

    It seems that our government schools today are more about politically correct indoctrination than reading, writing, math, and learning how to think.

    We need a great sales person for individuality to fend off the self immolation part of the gene pool as we carreen down "The Road To Serfdom".

    Human history has always been a battle between slavery and feedom, control and liberty. The collectivists are winning for the moment.

    There is always hope that reason will triumph.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Steve Jobs' leaving the Chamber over their climate position must have had an impact. CNBC, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post report:

    "In a dramatic shift, the Chamber of Commerce announced Monday that it is throwing its support behind climate change legislation making its way through the U.S. Senate."

    Guess they're all a bunch of Yes Men.

    (wait for it)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Pretty sad that so many entities are being bullied into going along with the GW Cult in power.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It was a hoax. :shades:
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...a left leaning activist group that often impersonates officials from organizations they oppose..."

    Gee another leftie bunch that thinks lying is OK. I guess when you hear "activist" you should think "liar". In the old USSR it was called "disinformation". Now I know who all those old commies are working for.

    It just points out the basic dishonesty of the entire environmental movement. :mad:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    It also shows you how much these "journalists" do to check whether or not a story is true...no checking at all if it fits their agenda. Just print it.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to plant more stories like this just to see them make even bigger fools of themselves !! :P

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "the basic dishonesty" of the entire environmental movement?

    What's dishonest about:

    wanting to have cleaner air?
    wanting coral reefs to survive and continue helping provide us with fish?
    wanting to replace fossil fuel burning with cleaner energy?
    wanting to have cleaner cars?
    wanting to have more and better forestation?
    wanting to reduce landfill waste?
    wanting to reuse/recycle/renew existing resources rather than create new ones?
    wanting people to THINK before they "automatically waste?"
    wanting people to carpool and use public transportation more often?
    wanting people to use less electricity and learn to adapt to wasting less?

    I can't see anything wrong with those goals.

    Like ANY section of ANY society, there are liars in some sections.

    Just because one small section of a LARGER group does something dishonest, that does not pigeonhole the entire group into the category of liars.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not only did the hoax embarrass Reuters and the majors that ran with the story, it kept the light shining on the Chamber of Commerce and keeps unwanted attention on their global warming policy. That was the real mission, not to turn the Old Lady's face red.

    I think the Yes Boys figure they got a win-win today.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    The things you listed are what all of us want. The problem is that none of them are affected, good or bad, by mmgw. Mmgw is just a scam to put money in the pockets of a few at the expense of the rest of us. They use the things you listed to suck people in even though there is no relationship.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You have pointed out many of the lies pushed by those different entities you have listed.

    wanting coral reefs to survive and continue helping provide us with fish?
    wanting to replace fossil fuel burning with cleaner energy?


    In the drive to cleaner fuel such as Ethanol the industry and their environmental backers have LIED about the damage to the fisheries where the fertilizer run-off is a hazard. They have lied about the true cost. They have lied about the damage to the water source.

    wanting to have more and better forestation?

    Of course we want more forest. That is why these same pushers of alternative fuels across the globe are de-foresting millions of acres to plant crops for fuel. You know the particulars. The latest study I read is it takes 93 years to gain back what is lost by cutting down a forest to plant crops for fuel. Environmentalist LIE to push their agenda as much as industrialists or politicians to get theirs through.

    My favorite are the dueling enviro wackos. One pushing alternative energy sources while the other blocks their progress. All telling big lies while it is costing the tax payers money.

    wanting people to carpool and use public transportation more often?

    We all like breathing clean air. I also think there is a good case for carpooling. I don't think mass transit has been proven environmentally sound in most locations. It is just another one of the big LIES by those that benefit financially and their ignorant lackeys in public office. A bus with 3-4 people is not environmentally friendly. I see them all the time. Same as the Trolley running empty or nearly empty.

    So I will give you four out of your list that are not riddled with LIARS looking to profit. Maybe?
  • bpraxisbpraxis Member Posts: 292
    Great comments one and all.

    We may all agree that we are all for a cleaner environment.

    What many people do not see is that after the collapse of communism in 1989 with the fall of the Berlin Wall the displaced intellectuals fournd a new home in the great movement.

    Brilliant move really if you think about it.

    They can attack Capitalism and economic freedom under the cover of protecting the baby seal.

    These intellectuals do not beleve in private property, a meritocracy and your right to keep the fruits of your own labor. They believe in central planning and control.

    Just part of the foundation to create prosperity.

    For these individuals it is about power and nihilism, destroying the good for being good so to speak.

    The free market and the ingenuity of the human mind will create a cleaner environment. The future is incredibly bright and clean if we are free.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And you thought alpha-numeric car names were bad....

    "The new stuff, HFO 1234yf (notice how the nomenclature gets more complex with each improvement) is supposed to be about 350 times more atmospherically friendly than HFC 134a."

    Say Hello to HFO 1234yf, Greenhouse-Gas Friendly Coolant For Your Next New Car (Green Car Advisor)

    In other news, Miss landowners sue oil, coal companies for contributing to global warming (Dallas News). It's interesting to note that this isn't the notorious 9th Circuit for a change.

    Less topical, since they didn't look at global warming:

    "Burning fossil fuels costs the United States about $120 billion a year in health costs, mostly because of thousands of premature deaths from air pollution, the National Academy of Sciences reported in a study issued Monday.

    The committee said environmental damage from gasoline and diesel fuel cost 1.2 cents to 1.7 cents per mile."

    Ethanol and electric cars got hammered.

    Fossil Fuels’ Hidden Cost Is in Billions, Study Says (NY Times)
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    And the concern on a new chemical just being produced for the first time, and possibly rushed to market, is that the environmental and health consequences may not be fully studied. So do we all feel like going for a run in our guinea-pig wheel this morning? Are these the guys who brought us MBTE, and then the replacement-ethanol debacles?

    Your NYTimes article simply shows that production of any sort of energy has negative environmental impacts. However this needs to be balanced versus the positive benefits, which the article neglects. I would say that the study should have included how many lives are saved from the energy sources, and what economic benefit (GDP) is GAINED from burning coal and such.

    Too many authors are biased and just look at 1 -side of an issue. They really should look at positives vs. negatives; because what you want from any system is a net-gain as a determinant. Example: You do not a ban a chemical if it kills mosquitoes such that 20,000 people don't get malaria and die, if one of the negatives of using the chemical is that 1,000 people will die of cancer from exposure to it. Society needs to look at the net-benefit, and stop making improvements because they have some negatives.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wonder if our AC units will keep going down in efficiency with each new planet saving attempt to reduce GHG. It would seem that the current AC units in cars run more to keep the same level of comfort that the old Freon afforded. That means burning more fossil fuel.

    If I was the TX oil and coal producers I would just cut off Mississippi's supply, if they feel that way. It is such a waste of resources and we all end up paying more for those frivolous lawsuits. If MM GHG had anything to do with hurricanes this would be a worse hurricane season than last. It is the least active in about 30 years. In spite of Al Gore's stupid comments blaming Katrina on GW Bush.

    I think it has been very well documented for more than 50 years that burning anything is not healthy for people to breath. From a wood stove to a bunker oil burning ship. When I heated with wood in AK I was always coughing and suffering from colds. Even the best sealed stoves create unhealthy air. What is the alternative to burning fossil and non fossil fuel? Even our relatively clean burning kitchen gas stove is not perfect.

    The committee said environmental damage from gasoline and diesel fuel cost 1.2 cents to 1.7 cents per mile.

    I would like to see a comprehensive study of mass transit. Buses, both metro and school buses. The study would have to provide average riders per mile to be worthwhile. I think the mass transit at any cost crowd would be surprised at just how bad they are. Most of the buses in my part of SD County are still diesel burners. I don't think they have started using ULSD as they still stink. Most kids do not ride the bus due to the $500 per year charge. So that creates a traffic jam around every school morning and evening with 100s of parents sitting in cars idling to keep cool when it is hot.

    April 10, 2008
    ALPINE – A dozen of the county's 42 school districts now charge families to take their children to and from school. The Alpine Union School District will become No. 13 next school year.

    The San Dieguito Union High School District in Encinitas will raise the cost of an annual bus pass from $400 per student, the highest in the county, to $500 this fall.


    In 2007 most of the kids rode the bus and only a few parents drove them to school.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    A/C units are going UP in efficiency, not DOWN. There is a 23 SEER unit available today, and the SEER ratings are just going UP every year.

    Not down.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Those are home units. I was referring to auto AC units. I don't think the SEER rating is directly tied to the gas used to cool. It is more motor and compressor efficiency. The 23 SEER units are very small and not much value in a big home.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The UK faces a "catastrophe" of floods, droughts and killer heatwaves if world leaders fail to agree a deal on climate change, the prime minister has warned.

    Gordon Brown said negotiators had 50 days to save the world from global warming and break the "impasse".

    He told the Major Economies Forum in London, which brings together 17 of the world's biggest greenhouse gas-emitting countries, there was "no plan B".


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8313672.stm

    Brown is a total loser. He needs to go hide under a rock. He is jealous of Al Gore's millions he has sucked out as leader of the GW Cult. Maybe he can get Al to take him on his Gulfstream after he voted out of office. :P
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...I can't see anything wrong with these goals..."

    You're confusing ENDS with MEANS. To accomplish the goals you mention what MEANS would you use? Would you lie? Would you steal? Would you kill? Each step is a little more extreme but is on the same moral continuum. Once on that path where do you stop?

    Unfortunately, much of the enviro movement is based in a Marxist/socialist agenda. This agenda dictates a relativistic morality where lying is just part of the game. So you get stories about polar bears dying when they are not, blaming Bush for storms and Nobel prizes for propaganda movies.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Like I stated, liars/cheaters are a small percentage of all segments of society.

    The VAST majority of people doing "good things" as they see them for the planet are NOT liars/cheaters/killers.

    Joe and Susie HomeGreenie, who went vegan and drive a hybrid and recycle like mad and bought solar panels, are not in the bad guys group, and thousands of people like THEM are doing the most good work for conservation and keeping the planet green.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    Hey Larsb: Did you see the recent movie "The Invention of Lying" ? It is a great movie on so many levels and pertains to your point here. :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Yes, there is nothing wrong with Joe and Susie HomeGreenie. We all should be doing what we can to conserve. What we don't need to be doing is paying Al Gore a tax so we can breathe and he can fly his private jet.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Joe and Susie HomeGreenie

    Nice try at deflecting from the issue at hand. We are talking about folks that have an agenda that includes extorting money from others. Making movies with 11 documented lies according to a British Court that has kicked it out of schools. That is the kind of lying by so called enviro types. Because I do not believe Al Gore and his minions practice what they preach.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Like I stated, liars/cheaters are a small percentage of all segments of society.

    But with modern media a small percentage of people can spread lies to benefit themselves, and to change public perception and policy, especially if the liars are prominent public figures.

    I certainly would have wanted any liars and biased people to have been exposed when our leaders decided that Iraq needed to be invaded in 2002 because of the purportedly overwhelming evidence of WMD. Remember all that "data" that our experts had accumulated. So all the good Joe and Susie Anti-WMDies got behind the ignorance and falsehood of our incorrect leaders. Or did they really have other reasons for wanting to invade Iraq - like a vendetta against Saddam.

    Anyway, while Joe and Susie certainly can do good for the environment, I don't want to see Joe and Susie being misled that they can have much of an impact on the climate, if that is not true. I don't want to see Joe and Susie get behind falsehoods, such that they sacrifice needlessly - lining the pockets of various new organizations created by the unscrupulous leaders of a hoax.

    Believe in what you will, but don't force me to believe your theory, and legislate that I have to pay for it in various ways. I have yet to see any GW or see any adverse effects. I see snow from october to April - that is my reality, not THEORY.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I think the current administration thinks lying is an honorable thing if it helps them get their way...and they truly can't understand why we object to it. :confuse:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    don't force me to believe your theory

    Ok. I won't force you force to believe my theory of gravity either. How's the weather up there? I hear the Stratosphere is nice this time of year (and I don't mean Vegas). :shades:

    Up there, but on the ground, Global Warming Could Deal Maine Coast Double Blow (MPBN)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's not a lie if the person saying it TRULY thinks it is true. It can be completely wacko, totally off base, incredibly ridiculous, etc - but it cannot be A LIE if it is told with an honest and clear belief in the truth of the statement.

    So, based on that, no one can PROVE that anyone is "lying" at all about their belief in MMGW.

    And until someone shows me that the arctic ice is somehow melting itself, I have seen evidence of unusual warming (and many other examples.)

    Whether the warming is "mankind-enhanced" or just a normal temperature cycle is still up for debate.

    No document has ever been produced that says anything about any of the so-called "unscrupulous leaders" of any GW hoax ever having a meeting and declaring, "Hey, we can fake Global Warming and make a trillion dollars !!!"

    When you get that smoking gun, then we have ourselves a genuine hoax, and we have people going to jail.

    Until that day, we have only speculation as to motives.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So, based on that, no one can PROVE that anyone is "lying" at all about their belief in MMGW.

    First off lying is not a crime, so no one will be going to jail for lying, unless it is under oath. If those that are claiming man is the primary cause of Climate Change are not doing their best not to contribute, I consider that lying. The modern MM/GW folks would have been snake oil salesmen if they lived 100 years ago. And of course we can be sure they believed in their product. MM GW is a lie when they do not have evidence that is irrefutable to back up statements like, it is a done deal. Or we only have 50 days to save the planet. Who in their right mind would believe someone like Brown when he makes that kind of claim? He is lying through his teeth and he is well aware of what he is doing.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...Joe and Susie HomeGreenie..."

    If those folks want to take action for their beliefs I say more power to them. Where I have the problem is with the professional "activists" who derive their considerable income from the public coffers by making up alarmist stories and lies. Under the banner of "cleaning up the environment" they promote an agenda that is destructive to this country and hard working honest people like you.

    To many of these activists you are just a tool or as Stalin called folks like you "a useful fool".

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...the current administration thinks lying is an honorable thing..."

    Sad to say, so did the last one. That's hard to admit as a somewhat conservative/independent. :cry:

    It's so tough to take any information at face value.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...It's not a lie if the person saying it TRULY thinks it is true..."

    You do know that you're quoting George Castanza from "Seinfield" don't you? :confuse:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, in that case, George was a pretty sharp fellow at times.............

    :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,588
    Do you remember the previous administration? :sick:

    With Gordon Brown on the GW bandwagon, that's all the proof I need that it's faulty. I hope he buys a Prius so I can cancel it out 50x with one good rev of my fintail :shades:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Sad to say, so did the last one. That's hard to admit as a somewhat conservative/independent.

    Nothing the likes of what we are seeing now. We have to start with the 2010 elections and boot EVERYONE out. Republicans and Democrats.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    So in the story about the "Boy crying Wolf", you would say that the boy was correct to cry wolf, because he may have a theory, gut-hunch or exception eyesight, and no one could prove that there wasn't a wolf nearby?

    So therefore everyone in the village needed to raise taxes, build barbed-wire fences, and mount 24-hr armed patrols to keep that suspected wolf away?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe with all my heart that MM GW is a gigantic HOAX. Therefore it has to be TRUE. Not just the US seeing record cold temps. I told people buying those econoboxes would freeze us out and now we find another TRUTH.

    All-time October low recorded in Bavaria

    Published: 20 Oct 09 16:36 CET

    Meteorologists on Tuesday morning recorded the lowest ever October temperature in Germany, as the mercury dipped to a chilly -24.3 degrees Celsius in Bavaria’s Berchtesgaden national park.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "I believe with all my heart that MM GW is a gigantic HOAX. There fore it is TRUE."

    No, you missed the point.

    Just because you believe it doesn't make it TRUE, it just makes you NOT A LIAR when you say you believe it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is Obama Poised to Cede US Sovereignty?

    any valid rebuttal welcomed
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,588
    We need a valid argument first :shades:

    The US lost true sovereignty maybe 50 or 60 years ago - today the US does not act for American interests. It's the same as Europe.
  • bpraxisbpraxis Member Posts: 292
    For the intellectual archetects of this global warming sales presentation it is not about the environment.

    It is about controling your person and property.

    Much of the latest science based data shows global cooling.

    Please stop the madness already.
  • solomon2solomon2 Member Posts: 1
    how can cars be related to global warming when global warmings not real
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Someone better go tell Subaru, Nissan, GM and the rest that all their green car efforts are for naught.

    Then there's that whole X-Prize thing.

    "The Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE will place a major focus on efficiency, safety, affordability, and the environment. It is about developing real, production-capable cars that consumers will want to buy, not science projects or concept cars. This progress is needed because today's oil consumption is unsustainable and because automotive emissions significantly contribute to global warming and climate change."
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    So if magically every current car/truck/SUV in the world is converted to a hybrid or electric vehicle, then someone has calculated that CO2 levels will decrease?

    The globe will be producing less CO2 then in the 19th century when the Swiss glaciers started melting? :P
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