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You're not serious are you? Do you really propose that would happen. That premise pretty much ruins the rest of the theory.
I am not getting into the science of it as I am not a scientist. I am just advising what I have personally experienced. Maybe it's a fluke but I've been pretty happy that when I check my air pressure on my vehicles every couple of months that it is right on the button. That just didn't happen in the past. Like I said, I have the little air compressors your selling in all three of my vehicles and used to use them often to top off tires. Just haven't had to in a long time.
I'm not selling nitrogen and could care less if people get it or not. I've just had a good experience with it to the point where I would probably pay a few bucks to have it if it wasn't already part of the Costco tire installation. It's just funny that every time the subject is brought up there are so many experts that absolutely know it doesn't make a difference even though they have no personal experience with it.
I didn't say it makes my cars ride better, tires last longer or anything else. All I'm saying is that the pure nitrogen has held the air pressure for very long periods and in direct contrast to my past experiences with over 35 vehicles probably 70 sets of tires.
Well, I didn't say I don't check my air pressure and I do. Just don't check it as much. But to tell the truth, after 45 years of driving and 35 vehicles I can't remember seeing any of the things you mention when checking my air pressure and it wasn't because I wasn't looking. I pay pretty close tabs on the condition of my vehicles.
Making assumptions about other people and how "connected" they are to driving or their vehicles by the fact they have nitrogen in their tires is just as bad as assuming the same thing because they drive an automatic transmission. It's just plain ridiculous.
Let it go already..
And you also managed to manipulate my message.
FWIW, in my also 45 years of driving, I have discovered every single one of those items I listed. I do not make things up. (the broken strut spring was on a Rabbit) but this is more common than you might think. Depending on how it breaks, and where you park, squat doesn't tell the tale right away.
And you still didn't address my point, which...while rubber does not permeate nitrogen at the same rate it does air, your nitrogen STILL does not protect you from getting a nail two miles after you checked your tires. So statistically, the longer you go between hands-on, the greater the odds of picking up the nail. But you do what you like, just don't run into me because your tire blew out unexpectedly from being neglected due to complacency of the owner.
"A past TIRE BUSINESS survey determined nearly 50% of all U.S. service centers would have Nitrogen Service by the end of 2009! It's now a certified fact! The question remaining... will you be caught without a system? Do you want to add $25,000, $50,000, $75,000 or more to your yearly "net" profit? Remember, if you don't fill tires with Nitrogen, the competition down the street will be the one selling it to your customer... plus maybe more. It's only a matter of time, everyone will need Nitrogen to be able to service tires and perform Undercar Service."
That's reallly what it's all about. Profit for the dealer. They found something most customers don't understand but sounds good. Tires have an inner liner that helps prevent permeation by various molecules. I haven't checked the sizes of O2, N2, and the CO2 molecules, but I doubt there's much difference that's going to show up in auto tires. Trucks have used this because they reuse the carcasses and run them a lot longer than auto tires get run.
I saw a friend who bought a spiffy new Kia and the dealer charged $90 for nitrogen in the tires. I also fell over with shock that he paid that for a Koup. Do you think they sucked all the air out and put in their 95% nitrogen mix from their "generator"? I don't think so.
High profit. But go ahead and believe in it you want to do so. It's your money. Barnum and Bailey await you.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A marketing ploy, sure.. just like that ad from the people selling nitrogen systems..
I don't see how it can hurt...
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The original post seems to be complaining about adding air to tires and a desire to decrease or eliminate that.
Unfortunately it is not possible. I skimmed the interesting discussion about nitrogen but the root issue is rather simple: the schrader valve used in all passenger tires, TPMS equipped or not, is rather leaky.
Trust me. I am an avid bicyclist and I have bikes with schrader and presta valves. They both leak, but schrader is worse. Obviously car tires have a boatload more volume than bicycle tires, and thus the rate of pressure loss is slower, but I 100% guarantee you that you WILL leak nitrogen, regular air, or whatever the heck you choose to pump into your car tires.
I'll avoid the nitrogen debate as that seems to be well covered.
Sorry about the cold hands. I would have simply checked the pressure and finding it within safe limits, driven and temporarily ignored the warning light. In fact that's exactly what I am doing in my vehicle that is TPMS equipped.
Of course nitrogen doesn't protect from getting a nail in a tire. Do you actually believe that anybody might think that or do you just like stating the obvious? Do you check your air pressure every time you drive? That would be the only way to guarantee you didn't pick up a nail on THAT drive and suddenly become a hazard to all others on the road.
Arguments like that get to be a little tedious. A visual check of the tire or even turning the steering wheel abruptly back and forth while driving will usually give you a pretty good idea if a tire is so low on air that it could become a danger. Gee, in 45 years of driving I've never ran into anyone with a blown out tire. I must be doing something right or just extremely lucky if you believe the chances are that high. Maybe I'll go to Vegas and try my luck.
I'm not saying you make things up, I'm just saying I haven't experienced any of those things you mentioned. Maybe I just take better care of my cars or drive on better roads than you do...who knows.
I suggest you be more observant then.
In your entire post you used a lot of words but not a single one addressed that the odds of running around with a nail, are greater the longer you go between hands-on! End of! Next, will you argue that black is white?
And regarding your innuendo that you possibly are more attentive to your car than I am is ridiculous, if for no other reason other than the irony with which you are trying to defend your more infrequent hands on since using nitrogen! Talk about pot kettle black..
I find the discussion interesting. I'm also going to cast my vote that schrader valves are the culprit in many of these cases. I snugged my up and never had the light go on again.
Shifty your Host
I think I stated that unless you check after every drive you could be driving with a nail. Quit stating the obvious. Of course you are going to notice something like that a little quicker if you check your air pressure more often.
Again, your argument that because you check your air pressure more often means you automatically take great care of your car is ridiculous. You have no idea how people go about pre-tripping their vehicles simply based on checking air pressure nor how they maintain their vehicles based on that fact alone. To bring it into a conversation about whether or not nitrogen can hold pressure better than normal air is silly.
If you actually KNOW something about nitrogen filled tires, say so. Don't assume things about other people just because they use it. I don't profess to know exactly why nitrogen has held up better in my three sets tires, I just know it has. I'm waiting for someone to relate their opposite experience. If so, maybe my experience is just a fluke. I can only state what my personal experience has been.
"Making assumptions about other people and how "connected" they are to driving or their vehicles by the fact they have nitrogen in their tires is just as bad as assuming the same thing because they drive an automatic transmission. It's just plain ridiculous."
Not sure why you singled me out here. I was not the first to make things personal. Am I not allowed to defend my position? As you must know, the auto tranny remark was made purposely because of my known defense of manuals.
But ok..
Please continue your discussion with courtesy---"attack ideas, not people". Follow that and you'll never hear from me.
Here's an interesting excerpt I picked up from another website:
"Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. is ambivalent about the use of nitrogen. The Rubber Manufacturers Association says it it's a good thing– when it's free. Michelin goes a step further. They recommend nitrogen only for tires used "in high risk environments” like aircraft landing gear and racing."
(thetruthaboutcars.com)
But with regards to the matter at hand, your comment here:
"I'm waiting for someone to relate their opposite experience. If so, maybe my experience is just a fluke. I can only state what my personal experience has been."
You must have missed the informative post about that regardless of nitrogen or air-filled, the weakest link is the valve in which either is applied. That was personal experience.
Anecdotal evidence is tricky at best----Anecdotal evidence, while very convincing to the individual, is still a database of one. :P
I did miss it and I would agree the valve is probably the weakest link. But that does not address whether straight nitrogen reduces air pressure loss or not. The valve would, I assume, affect both air or straight nitrogen pretty equally.
Following is from an article from Popular Mechanics. I'm not saying they have the definitive answer on this but what they say closely matches my experience so far.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/repair-questions/4302788
I have had a certain routine when checking my air pressure. It is important to a) never drive anywhere without a cap. If it's missing then at least get some scotch tape to cover it up till you get it replaced. and b) I always do a pppsssttttt, first with the valve to blow any dirt or debris out before pushing in on the valve. This allows the valve seat debris to blow past rather than get pushed in. I also always carefully inspect the end of the air hose if at a gas stn for dirt. People tend to drop them like they carry plague after using them and they get really dirty inside. I also look for hints of excessive oil residue, and try to avoid using air from a place whose compressor is throwing a lot of oil. As most of know, oil is bad for rubber. Mainly tho, I try to adjust and check pressures at home, and use my own compressor. I also can check early in the morning before the sun warms one side of them more than the other.
I also do the spit-bubble test, then dab it and wipe on a napkin before putting the cap back on.
Lastly, SS caps are a good idea to secure air due to centrifugal force.
We use this on bikes cuz when you race at over 140+ mph, air can be lost through the valve. It is a bigger issue on bikes cuz the valve sits dead centre...but of course on our roads, not too many people race around at those excessive speeds so isn't really that crucial. If you have steel caps tho, keep an eye on them cuz people will steal the darn things. And the worst part is, is the dirt before you discover the theft. :sick:
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/gary-foreman-nitrogen-filled-tires-n- ot-worth-cost-1580.php
I don't understand your point here. Seriously, could you elaborate?
How does centrifugal force come into play? :confuse:
It's one of those things that at first you just wouldn't think of, but speed changes all the basic rules as we know them.
If it's free (or included with mounting & balancing), I'll take it.
If it's not, I'll pass.
more or less.... lol
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It just seems that so many people jump in here and say it's ridiculous but have never had it before. I totally agree that it's not worth what many places want to charge. But for a couple of bucks per tire it's reasonable. I don't mind checking my tires air pressure at all. I have a heated garage although it gets pretty messy around the vehicles in the winter what with all the slush and such. But it's nice not having to haul out the air compressor all the time to fill one tire or another. It shocked me too when I had the tires installed on my SUV in Sept of 07 and after two winters in the spring of 09 I was only down a couple of pounds. Before I would have had to top off all four tires at least two to three times during that same time period.
It's possible I just got a super duper install and a great seal around the alloys and has nothing to do with the nitrogen. I'm just relating my experience with it. Not endorsing it.
But I will say one thing, if I have absolutely no experience with something I cetainly wouldn't try to act like I do in these forums.
Sometimes good research is as good or better than relying on anecdotal experiences, wouldn't you say?
If I told you how great my 2003 Mini Cooper was, would you disregard the tons of evidence that suggests this might be a troublesome car? I doubt you would.
Now in your case, I tend to give your anecdote some weight because I never heard much negative feedback on nitrogen other than maybe a "neutral" experience.
If one does some research you will find that the majority of legitimate researchers or testers find that nitrogen works to varying degrees but not so well to warrant spending a lot of money on it. I would tend to agree with that. Sure you can check the air in your tires every week and add a little air every once in awhile. If I can do that less often for a few dollars it's worth it to me. The other benefits that may or may not be there like potential longer tire life because of cooler running at freeway speeds or less moisture inside the tire resulting in less corrosion on the rim aren't that big a player to me. I mainly like it due to the steady air pressure in the tires from the dead of winter to the heat of summer.
The only thing nitrogen fill has (or rather precisely it does not have) is water vapour.
Oxygen, air, nitrogen, hydrogen follow the ideal gass rules (in normal temperatures experienced on planet Earth) as long as they are pure gas. Water wrecks all this linearity. It can be solid, fluid or gas all within the normal temperature, pressure range.
That is why it is important in planes. Imagine winter time filling up in Miami, landing in Anchorage.
Check tire pressure, it reads low. Let's pump it up. Can you imagine all this ice inside tire?
Now we are landing in Miami again. Ice turned to water, water turned to water vapour - all this happening probably turing touch down in a fraction of a second. Tire goes ka boom during landing.
We make headline news.
If you drive fast for extended period of time linearilty that nitrogen or dry air buy you is worth it. Street driving - not so much.
Krzys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas
PS For nitrogen fill wheel needs two valves: one to let nitrogen in, the other to let air out.
-Nitrogen and oxygen behave identically in tires, they are both 'ideal gases' at conditions in tires. So any claims regarding 'improved ride' or 'better milage' are 100% bogus.
-Actual tests show that tires may lose only a slightly larger amount of pressure over a year with 100% nitrogen, on the order of one psi in the CR test. This is negligible, has no real impact in frequency of tire pressure measurements, which are needed at least 4 times/year to adjust for seasonal temperature swings.
-It sounds like you experienced what I did, which was certain tires retaining their air better than others. My car with Michelins had very little need for air, while my car with Pirellis had much more frequent need. Both with air.
-The only claim I can think might have some merit is the water vapor's effect on pressure sensors, but I'd have expected the car makers to say something if that were the case.
I was at an oil change place in July of 2008 which was about 10 months and a change of three seasons. I asked them to check my tires (which I observed by the way) for proper pressure as I was actually starting to doubt my pressure gauge. They checked each tire and said they were all right on the money. I added no air in that 10 months. To me this was kind of mind blowing as I had never gone anywhere near that long with other tires and they still didn't need air.
I don't know about you, but if I don't have to get the air compressor out three or four times a year(or find a gas station for air) it is worth $9. If it isn't to you...fine.
I prefaced my experience with the possibility that maybe Costco just does the best job of mounting and has the best valve stems in the world and maybe that is why I've had this good luck with air pressure. Like I said, take it for what it's worth.
That's the kind of non-research I was talking about. The CR test was on mounted tires that were stored for a year on pretty new rims. They were pressure tested in Oct and again the following Oct. To my knowledge, no interim pressure tests were done. I believe a static test like that may not be the ideal way to get true results as I would think tires being actually being mounted and used on highways, potholes, temp flucuations, etc. would yield different results but I don't know for sure.
Nitrogen and oxygen behave identically in tires
If that is 100% true all the time why do airplanes, race cars, some trucks, and a few other vehicles use nitrogen? I'm not trying to equate a passenger car with those types of vehicles but if they behave identically like you say why bother?
So from Sept/Oct to July... possibly a bit warmer in July. And at an oil change place... I'll bet that you are a smart guy and make sure your oil is warmed up before it's drained. So your tires were warmed up too.
So how many PSI are accounted for by the difference in temperature? Wouldn't you expect the tires to actually read HIGHER pressure if none had leaked away in the interim? Just askin'
http://www.barrystiretech.com/nitrogeninflation.html
One of the issues I didn't address is leakage between the rim and the tire. Typically this is the largest variant and accounts for most of the stories surrounding anecdotal experiences with nitrogen.
Many, many years ago, the company I work for immersed a tire and wheel in a tub of water. They put a plastic sheet on the top to capture the bubbles and hold them in place.
after a couple of months, there were 3 rings of bubbles - where the tire and wheel interface, the valve, and the tread surface. I think it is obvious why the first rings appeared, but why the tread face? Because the tread would be a nearly vertical surface and would be where the bubbles from the other side would float up to, then rise to the water's surface.
Far and away the most leakage occured at the tire wheel interface. That would explain why folks are getting completely different results in what would otherwise appear to be an A-B test.
Why do airplanes, race tires, etc use nitrogen?
Well, airplane tires use very high inflation pressures - some as high as 300 psi! It's a whole lot easier to buy nitrogen bottles filled with 1500 psi from an outside source and mount them on a cart, than it is to lug around a specially built (and heavy) compressor. Besides, nitrogen doesn't add oxygen to a fire should a tire explode.
Race cars? Water would add to the pressure build up and that's not a good thing if you are trying to maintain the way the car handles. Some NASCAR teams are inflating tires to the nearest half a psi for handling pruposes. Anything to reduce the variation is a plus.
Trucks? Those tires are inflated to around 100 psi. The oxygen in air deteriorates the rubber and with 100 psi driving the gas through the tire, that occurs much faster than in passenger car tires. Besides, truck tires are retreaded 4 or 5 times and last many, many years. It pays from them to try to preserve the tires. Nevertheless, many trucking compnaies do not use nitrogen - and it is driven simply by economics.
And lastly, the RMA (Rubber Manufacturers Association) statement is carefully neutral. I know - I helped write it.
Bottomline. Many of the claims for nitrogen are exaggerated - some outright lies. While there are some advantages, passenger car tires would only receive a minimal benefit. Whether you chose to use nitrogen is up to you, but don't expect miracles.
I understood that good air compressors had a drier setup to remove moisture from the air they provide. So using that removes the moisture (humidity) in the air that has been brought up. I doubt that the nitrogen generated by the little machines at some tire stores is moisture free as is the commercial nitrogen supplied in tanks. So that further moots the moisture variation.
Checking your tire pressures monthly and adjust to the ambient if you are in an area with variations will serve your tires the best. You'll also catch seeping at rims, valve stems, small nails in your tread, etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Your criticism of the CR method requires one to invoke mysterious forces that cause air to leak not due to the pressure difference (which is the main driving force present) but due to some new, unnamed effect. Not very likely.
Your reliance on the oil change place to confirm your tire's pressure is incorrect. The only pressures you should rely to understand your tires is that measured with one accurate gauge by you first thing in the morning, before any driving heats the tires and makes the measured pressure unreliable. The pressures measured at the oil change place are after you drove, and are therefore unreliable.
As to nitrogen use in airplanes: the LAST thing an airplane wants to have on board in a crash is a highly compressed source of oxygen, which is what a tire inflated with air would be. It's a safety issue.
Capriracer addressed the race cars, where they want absolute control of pressure to a fraction of a psi.
It's the valve stem and seal around the rim AND a tiny nail or a bigger nail in the tire that hasn't started leaking fast enough to leave the car on a flat.
If you worry about moisture being inside and causing a greater than normal rise and drop in pressure due to slightly different characteristics of water/water vapor from O2 or N2, than use air sources which have driers on their compressors.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
One of the reasons, at least in the case of airplanes (I'm kind of surprised no one has brought up the use of N2 in the Space Shuttle ties), is that nitrogen does not support combustion.
Now this is simply not possible, assuming you live somewhere that has actual seasons. If your perfectly leak free tire is at the correct pressure on an 80 degree day in July, it is not going to be at that same pressure on a 10 degree day in January, without adding nitrogen or air or some other gas to it.
From what I have read there may be some modest advantages to dry nitrogen over wet air, but it is absolutely certain that one of them is not zero pressure change with temperature changes.
I have had the Michelin tires on my SUV for about 2.5 years now. The BF Goodrich on a Tundra for almost two years. I have noticed a distinct difference in the amount of air pressure loss on these two sets of tires compared to previous experience. That's it. That's all I am saying. I've had about 35 different vehicles in my life which probabably had around 70 different sets of tires to compare to.
Fact: In the past I always checked my tires about every two months. I didn't change that habit when I got the tires in question. However, after about two years I have probably slipped to every three months. If I check my tires in some unscientific way sometimes....well soooorrrry. At least I'm checking.
Fact: I clearly stated I can't be sure the nitrogen has any affect. It's possible the tires are much better, the mounting job is much better, the valve stem is much better than all my past experience. I have never said that I know the nitrogen doesn't leak as fast as air for a fact. I just got a third set of tires put on a Mazda6. They are also Michelins. We'll see how often I have to add aid to these tires.
Somebody was so concerned that I had an oil change place check my air pressure after driving there. I think the remark about being smart was a little childish but I had checked my tires the day before and was kind of curious that my pressure gauge(haven't had it calibrated so I'm sure someone will question that too) was correct. So I had them check very carefully while I stood and watched them and they reported within a pound of what I had measured. The temps in Sept and Jul in IL could be the exact same. We have hot and cool days in both months. Sorry, I did not record the temperature like a good little researcher.
If your perfectly leak free tire is at the correct pressure on an 80 degree day in July, it is not going to be at that same pressure on a 10 degree day in January,
I tend to check my pressure in my garage in the morning. Have I checked later in the day? Sure, but my routine is usually in the morning though. My garage temperature probably flucuates from about 40 to 80 under extremes.
What does all this mean? Very possibly nothing. You guys are really making a much bigger deal out this than the topic deserves. I'm just relating what I've experienced, people. I'm not saying it is any proof of anything but it is a coincidence in my opinion.
All righty, then!
I really wasn't trying to prove anything and said it was just my persoanl opinion/experience. Everyone else is saying they know better for a fact. If that's the case, they should provide some facts.
I don't really check my tire's air pressure much...especially when it is cold. If I do it tomorrow night, when it is supposed to be below zero, I'm sure they will be under-inflated.
9 bucks sounds like a pretty good deal. When nitrogen (for tires) first came out it was something crazy like $45.
And if you check back I did not question anything he said. Did I say any of the facts that have been provided by others didn't "work for me"? I might have asked for clarification but I certainly didn't say anybody was wrong.
I have never said that the only reason my tires have needed to be filled less often is directly due to nitrogen. Just that it is a nice coincidence that having the tires with nitrogen coincided with less frequent need for top off and IMO the nitrogen helped. It's very possible that just new tires, good mounting and good valves have did the trick on alloy rims that are 8 and 7 years old.
But if it makes you happy, I am now thoroughly convinced that nitrogen has absolutely nothing to do with my tires maintaining correct air pressure over a long period of time. It's a combination of other things. Thanks for the education.
They say faith can move a mountain. Is so, than surely it can keep in a couple pounds of air pressure in a tire. Don't give in to all those non believers.