Their basic plan is $6/hr plus 50 cents a mile. Plus they pay for all the gas, parking and insurance so thats your only cost plus a $25 a year membership fee. They have another plan that is $8.50/hr with 25 free miles for every hour and you can get monthly packages giving you a set number of hours and miles in a month.
Its for people that need a car for a few hours every now and again.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
you have to drive the 6.8L F-350 to the corner station to get 5 gallons of gas to come back and put in the tractor to mow the hay. It takes me about $5 to mow 1 acre lawn including the gas run in the car.
You make $6 at your job. You take home $3.55 and can buy a gallon of gas with it. The state has 6% sales tax in the $3.55 gallon. There's a gas tax: local, state, and federal in that too. Then the station, delivery truck, refinery, shipper, pumper, driller, rig builder, drill bit sharpener, and geologist who found the oil all get paid. They each pay income taxes. Even the profiteers (commodities traders) pay taxes. In all, of the $6 I make to go buy gas with, $5.25 ends up in gov't coffers. The gov't doesn't want low gas prices or efficiency. They want to keep getting $5.25 every time I buy a gallon of gas.
Americans aren't taxed all that much. The country survives by all of us living on cheap credit and not saving anything, not by taxes, I don't believe. Right now, I think the government is borrowing more than it takes in....er....that can't be good, right?
The idea, as it was explained to me by Mr. Greenspan on television, is that we don't have to worry about being in massive debt because our debtors wouldn't dare ask for the money back--since we would go into recession and then they would go into a worse recession than us. So in fact, we can do this indefinitely, unless that "we" is me and you---we get our car repossessed but apparently you can't repossess the US government. :P
My main concern about rising fuel prices is, and always has been, how quickly and massively these high prices can literally SUCK money out of the economy at a dizzying rate of speed----faster than retail or our paychecks or budgets can possibly react.
It creates a very volatile economic climate and isn't predictable in consequences IMO.
About the most proactive thing I can think of to do is figure out NOW how to save 10-20% on fuel in the future, so that I'm at least doing my little teeny tiny share of lessening the often severe impact of sudden energy crises.
are actually a bit misleading, because it doesn't account for appreciation on assets like stocks, mutual funds, etc. I think it pretty much just takes into account what you put into a savings account.
In fact, I think some things like stocks, are actually counted as an expense! For instance, let's you buy a stock for $10, and sell it for $40 years later and use that money to buy a watch. For savings rate purposes, not only do they ignore the $30 capital gain, but they count the entire $40 as spending!
Not to get TOO philosophical, but stocks aren't increasing in "value", only in "price". Ditto your home. This isn't the production of wealth, this is money going from one pocket into another. This is speculation, not investment or "saving" in other words. One PRESUMES that there is the production of actual wealth behind the rise in stock prices, but as we well know, that could be strictly voodoo...
If oil went to $150 a barrel, where would your "wealth" go? Exactly......it's a bit of a chimera....
Not to get TOO philosophical, but stocks aren't increasing in "value", only in "price". Ditto your home. This isn't the production of wealth, this is money going from one pocket into another. This is speculation, not investment or "saving" in other words.
I'm just not getting this. If I have a stock that I bought for $10, and sold for $40 a year later, what do you call that $30 in profit, then? And how is that different from if I put that same $10 into a savings account and, a year later, made 5 cents in interest? What's the difference between the 5 cents and the 30 bucks, except for the fact that there's a lot more of the other?
Of couse, the 5 cents is guaranteed, and you can't lose your initial $10, while there's the possibility that instead of making $30 in the stock, you could have nothing at all. But once it's sold, it's sold, and that's a solid profit.
I'm not trying to sound like a trust fund baby or anything, but I wouldn't be where I am financially if all I did was "save" strictly by the gov't definition of it.
And if oil went to $150 per barrel? Well, I do have some Exxon and Shell stock.
My point was that with either stocks or savings there is no increase in value, only in price. You have made "profit" but have not produced anything of value. The savings account is not speculative, is the only difference--but with inflation, it might not even be profit. Neither stocks nor savings or in most cases real estate is an "increase in the value" of the thing. Ergo, an economy based on price rises with no increase in the value of things is IMO on dangerous grounds.
Your Shell stock has only gone up in price. Shell may or may not be producing one more drop of oil, just charging more for the stock based on speculation. So your wealth, and Shell's wealth, can all go POOF because it isn't real.
It's "all in your head" in many cases.
This seems logical to me, given how oil "futures" are an unregulated crap shoot with the stability of a Las Vegas dice table.
I guess the days of paying dealer ripoff charges tacked onto msrp are gone. I just checked and the base prius with opt pkg 1 is $24546 TMV price with IN taxes (sales and excise) out the door. I have to adjust my 5% cd interest down from $133 to $102. That changes the required mileage of the Prius to only 63 mpg to break even against the original cost with taxes for 15k miles a year compared to a 24 mpg pick-up truck. (was 89, sorry). Looks like the old truck and the CD still win out. A prius is still a great way to go if you minimize 70 mph interstates usage and are planning to buy new anyway. My '01 LS 4x4 was $24500 otd with ext cab, V8, autotrac, tow, posi, bedliner, alloys, 33" trail tires, power everything. The same price then for a loaded truck as a really base Prius today. But it's limited to local usage with gas so high.
I do agree that it can all go poof. Look at the wealth gained and lost in the 90s dot.com bubble. Many of those folks that got out before the 1998 drop are now retired at a young age with a lot of money. They bought homes that have increased in price. Are set for life. They are driving around in big fancy cars burning premium gas and could care less if the price is 2 bucks or 10 bucks per gallon. So it is a gamble. With a bit of knowledge you can make the market work to your advantage. Whether buying cars, stocks or real estate.
Mr. Shiftright: My point was that with either stocks or savings there is no increase in value, only in price.
The price reflects that value that people put on an object, whether it is a house or a share of stock.
The value reflects both tangible and intangible factors. In the case of stock prices, prices can go up because of the promise of increased earnings, which can be spurred by cost cutting, the development of a new techonology, or even changes in the marketplace that make the product or service produced by the parent company more valuable (so that more people want it, or people are willing to pay more for it).
A house can go up in value because of nearby construction (which can also drive DOWN the value, depending on what is being constructed - most people don't want to live close to a freeway or a major airport) or even changes in demographics (larger families mean fewer people want small houses).
The change in price reflects changes in value.
To completely divorce one from the other violates all rules of how markets work.
Mr. Shiftright: Shell may or may not be producing one more drop of oil, just charging more for the stock based on speculation.
Shell - along with any other publically offered company - does not ultimately set the price of its stock.
The market, which is made up of investors both large and small, sets the price.
Shell can attempt to influence the price by buying back shares, or coming up with new tehnology, or diversifying (to reduce the exposure of earnings to a cyclical industry, such as oil), but the market will ultimately determine the share price.
Shell management does not just wake up one morning and decide, "We'll charge $X for one share of Shell stock, and that's the take-it-or-leave-it price, and every investor will pay that price or else." The share price of stock for publically traded companies is not set that way.
Mr. Shiftright: So your wealth, and Shell's wealth, can all go POOF because it isn't real.
Shell's wealth is backed up by very real assets such as oil contracts, buildings, equipment and knowledge (not just anyone can extract oil from the ground).
The question is whether value of the assets, along with earning potential made possible by those assets, is accurately reflected in the price of the stock.
Maybe one day the market will not place the same value on those assets that it does today. But that doesn't that those assets aren't real.
I’m always skeptical of comparisons between US and European gas prices, they are very different sets of circumstances and generally not comparable. In Europe there is much more mass transit and the US is much more spread out necessitating more being spent by the individual on driving. Additionally, the new CAFE standards that Washington is trying to impose are also not the right way to do things either. Businesses on a whole react better to market driven demand and not new government regulations. I even do some work with the Auto Alliance and trust me – they want to build cars that consumers will buy like many of the alternative fuel autos that are already on the road. But Washington trying to dictate what the market should do is not going to end well for consumers either. CAFE standards affect the whole line up and don’t just push for new technology. Its going to affect all the trucks, SUVs, minivans, etc that there is a high businesses and regular American consumers demand for too. There’s a lot going on in DC right now on this issue and actually if you check out www.drivecongress.com they have a really good resource for finding out more on the issue. I expect that there is going to be a lot more news on this issue when gets on the floor, which will probably happen next week.
I don't know they might be overtaxed. To keep things fair and throw taxation/political philosophy out the window you would need to compare things mathmaticly only. Take the major industrilized nations calculate their average taxation per captia and see where the US falls on the scale.
I think the bottom line is: What am I getting for my tax dollars. Do I get medical, social services for the elderly, etc. etc. And is it divided up fairly.
Actually from a scientific viewpoint Andre's stock price increasing might have more value then actually creating anything of value. Why?
Well the stock value increase has occurred without any change in entropy as it's occurred in cyberspace, whereas physically building something results in increased entropy of the universe.
But then again cyberspace food is never very filling or tasty!
I think eventually events in cyberspace will occur so quickly that humans won't be able to react in time. By the time you read about a device and go buy it, it will be obsolete when you get home. Fortunes in the stock market will be won and lost in nanoseconds. Markets will exhibit extreme volatility and finally freeze in a kind of event-laden short circuit. We will plunge into an abyss of singularity.
Gas prices may change as you are pumping your fuel.
I think the bottom line is: What am I getting for my tax dollars.
That probably is a good way to look at it. The federal budget for 2007 is around 2.8 trillion dollars. About $9,000 per capita. Now look at what services are provided in this country compared to other countries and also look at what these other countries have to spend per capita. I have no idea how the US would fair compared to other countries when viewed in this perspective but it would be interesting to find out. Oh yeah, that doesn't even take into consideration what we pay to the states so maybe we should be thinking in terms of what our collective governments have to spend, which is probably around $11-12k per capita.
Another thing to keep in mind. Even if you don't think you are getting $12k worth of government services are you actually contributing that much? If you're a single person making less than $50k you probably aren't. If you have a household of 4 then your household income needs to be around $140k before you're chipping in your share of the $12k per capita. My point is that even though our government is wasteful the fact that the rich pay such a high percentage of all tax revenue allows the rest of us to still get a decent return on our tax dollar.
If we both buy the same house in the same subdivision, and you do absolutely nothing to it and sell it for $50,000 more in 3 years, your house has only increased in price. It is the SAME house, same walls, same carpets. You haven't produced anything of value.
If I landscape my house, add a pool and hardwood floors and a slate shower, and sell mine for $100,000 more than I paid, at least $50000 of that is an increase in value, not just price.
You speculated, I rennovated, to achieve our respective goals. Also I gave jobs to people and improved the neighborhood.
If the gas station hangs a higher price on the same gas he had yesterday, it's only gone up in price. No value has been added to the gas is what I mean.
If we both buy the same house in the same subdivision, and you do absolutely nothing to it and sell it for $50,000 more in 3 years, your house has only increased in price. It is the SAME house, same walls, same carpets. You haven't produced anything of value.
Immaterial, as long as there is an increase greater than that of the inflation rate then there is an increase in value. Be it actual or perceived it has an increase.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Subtle differences. If they both meant exactly the same thing, we'd have only one word most likely.
Value: (văl"ū), n. 1. The property or aggregate properties of a thing by which it is rendered useful or desirable, or the degree of such property or sum of properties; excellence; utility; importance.
Price: (?), n. 1. that for which something is bought or sold, or offered for sale.
So you can change price without changing value and/or you can devalue or value-add and thus change the price. They are interrelated but not the same IMO.
That's the tricky thing with stocks - when is a price increase related to value (say an oil co. finds a new field) or just speculation (the oil it owns is temporarily priced higher).
Subtle differences. If they both meant exactly the same thing, we'd have only one word most likely.
Have you ever studied the English language? Many times the exact same thing can be said many different ways.
While you can change a price but at a new (presuminly higher) price if no one sees value in it the price will be meaningless and it will go back down to a point where it properly reflects the value.
Take your house example, if the price goes up $50K then someone must see an additional $50K in value of that house of it wouldn't sell for that price. Hence its value went up. Now you may have not done anything to cause it to go up in value but something did make it go up in value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh geeze, first my head was spinning from the arguments in the Are automobiles a major cause of global warming? discussion, and now I'm trying to figure out why a diamond is priced higher than water when water has more value to me.
Or maybe, in trying to keep a bit on topic, I should say why does $4 worth of gas has more value to me than a diamond?
let me answer that one for you: because you place no value on a diamond, that is, for you personally. But, gasoline propels your vehicle and you need it to get around, so it is of intrinsic value to you.
If you owned a diamond or purchased a diamond that diamond would have value to you as you owned it and when you sold it. But as ghastly prices rise ever upward, ghastly itself becomes the prize and you need it. You don't need a diamond. At least I don't think you do! Item you need=valuable to you.
gagrice, Willcox, AZ was made famous by the "Singing Cowboy, Rex Allen." Yes, there are "Rex Allen Days" here in Willcox and his son comes in to the hospital in town to meet and greet everybody. There's a parade downtown, rides, etc. Rex passed away some time ago but Jr.keeps the ball rolling along. Also, FWIW, Tanya Tucker lived here in Willcox for a while and moved when she was 12 years old. Just found that tidbit out about a month ago.
Willcox also has Arizona's oldest operating store. The Willcox General Merchandise Store has been operating continuously since 1880. The old train station has been remodeled and is now City Hall. It's an adorable little community and is the coolest spot to live in in Arizona. By coolest I don't mean hippie cool I mean temperature cool. Willcox sits at 4,167 feet above sea level. It actually cools off at night here and you can sleep soundly because all of that hot air from the day earlier cools off about 30-40 degrees from what it was in the heat of the day. Coolio, huh?
Oh, gagrice, ghastly prices in this fair little town. They are ranging from $3.09/gal for 87 no-lead at the Mustang ghastly station to $3.19 at the Standard Chevron.
I picked diamonds because they are lousy "investments" and I never found them particularly attractive either. Give me the gas - if I need to get to the ER, the price of a gallon isn't too relevant at that point. :shades:
Is it about time to bring Maslow into the discussion?
The value of a diamond is determined by others. Logic may not apply. Perls(sic) are something to cast before swine. Pearls' value, like diamonds, are determined by others. Purchasing a new, more fuel efficient, vehicle requires energy to produce. As more of these vehicles are produced, they become less efficient because the cost to produce them uses more costly resources to be consumed. Gas prices will rise to heat the production facility and have the factory workers drive to work to build the more fuel efficient vehicles. What happens to your old, less fuel efficient, traded-in vehicle ? Someone buys it and drives it as a used vehicle.
Pearls' value, like diamonds, are determined by others.
The value of anything is determined by others, its called the market. You may think that an item is worth so many dollars but if the market as a whole doesn't think so then in reality it isn't.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I noticed the title of this topic "what will you do when gas price rises above $4 a gallon" & thought it would be interesting to read others opinions. What I find instead is (well, as you can see on this page) not exactly on topic.
Anyway, I'm not in the states but in canada. In my area gas is right now selling for $5.19 a gallon. It went down a bit 10 days ago. I'll tell you what people in the states will do (the huge majority)..they'll continue driving just the same way they are now. How do I know this you might ask, because that's what happened here in canada & people are still buying big trucks, suvs, "crossovers" (stupid class of vehicle), "mini-vans" as opposed to big vans? & full size cars just as much as they were. I see them on the roads all the time usually with no more than two people in them & very often just the driver. Rarely are the trucks used for work, no dirt, dents etc that used to be seen on real work trucks years ago. Where I live the province is flat, no big hills, mountains etc..along the coast of the atlantic but yet it seems a lot of consumers think they need four wheel drive etc..so for anyone complaining about the price of gas, if you bought anything bigger than what you really need in the past several years then look in the mirror & say hi to a big reason why demand is so high. You're part of the problem.
Just to be fair topics are covered with teflon, nothing sticks to them. Secondly, as for the title there is only so much you can say in response to that question that after 1600 posts you are either going to be repeating yourself staying on topic or you are going to stray a bit and get off topic slightly and post fresh stuff. It keeps the thread going.
Finally it is somewhat on topic because we are discussing what gives value to something. By that we can get a greater understanding of what we, and others, will do when gas does hit $4/gallon and why we would do it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yeah I can understand things may get stale after 1600 posts..my main point was in canada it's even longer to drive from coast to coast & things haven't changed really much at all. Sure some may say they drive less or bought a smaller car but all one has to do is look on the roads/highways/rural or urban to see the majority are still buying gas guzzlers & yet they whine about the cost of fuel. Sure the oil companies are taking in huge profits, so are other non-oil companies like drug companies as an example. If there was an easy way to make them lower the prices at the pumps people would have already done something about it, what actually has the average driver done? (nothing, unless complaining counts). Money talks & that's what it takes to see changes of any kind in respect to this topic, where is the majority of drivers money been going? Into the vehicles I've mentioned, purchasing them & then into the fuel tanks & higher insurance premiums.
I'll post the orginal question below.
"Will you switch to a hybrid? Will you dump your SUV/ truck for a car/ crossover? Will you drive less? Will you switch to Asian makes? Will you add accessories that help you save gas? Will you drive in a more conservative manner... the so-called light-foot?
Have you already taken steps such as those mentioned above? If yes, please tell us what you did and whether it helped. If not, tell us what you think you are going to do.
Also, if you were driving in 70s when oil rose to all time high, what did you do? And, did that help?"
No, I won't buy a hybrid. I had a corrolla from 94 to 02 then bought an ehco in 02. It sold pretty well in canada but people for the most part in the states didn't like the echo for it's ugly looks so it didn't sell. I still have the echo, I get very close to 50mpg highway & around 43 around town. Since prices began to continually go up I've driven less, 21,000 miles on the echo now, polished, waxed & in the garage when not in use with a car cover to protect it from the elements. I take extreemly good care of the cars paint, interior & mechanics. The car still has the green leaf on one back window from toyota that classified it as a green vehicle regarding emission. Rust checked yearly since I live near the ocean.
Before the 94 corolla I bought a chevy corsica in 88 new but after 6 years made the switch to toyota due to the poor workmanship of the chevy.
Never owned a "mini-van", truck, suv, "cross-over"..cross over what? (yes I can be sarcastic)
I don't drive above the posted speed limits & many times vehicles are passing me which doesn't bother me since I know I'll arrive maybe ten minutes later than they do & also save fuel too.
I drove in the 70's yes. when gas here was 68 cents an imperial gallon. Cars like a plymouth fury with a 440 commado engine ex police highway interceptor, two firebirds, one a 70 & a 72, 75 grand prix 455 cu engine & a couple of other big cars. I didn't switch to japanese cars like toyota then since their cars rusted bad fast.
I was looking back at figures for gas prices, in 94 it cost $24.42 to fill the corrola, today it costs $47. to fill the echo. I have cut back drastically my driving to the point where in the last 6 months I've put on 1,700 miles on the car..it's been garaged the rest of the time.
So I'm doing my part to keep demand down. I know not everyone can do this much but common, do you really need that big whatever you drive? The %age of people that do may be 25% of gas guzzlers on the roads at any given time tops.
When someone pays you $50,000 more for the exact same house you bought a few years ago for $50,000 less, the house has not gone up in value, only in price. The "price" is just in people's heads, the value-added is real carpet, real wood, real swimming pool. See the diff?
My point was that any economic model based strictly on what's in people's heads, without any tangible substantial increase in value of the object, is extremely precarious.
A gallon of gas going up dramatically in price every day, (way above healthy inflation rates) with no new additives, with no higher octane, is just a speculative rise in price and a dangerous development for economic health.
You pay $5 a gallon for it on Tuesday and $5.10 on Wednesday because you are panicking, basically. I suppose utter panic is a form of "supply and demand" but not one I want to be part of.
Mr. S, to make you feel better, I am re-posting my past post regarding relative price against historical economic model in the U.S.
Unless you have an SUV, you are spending less for gas on a historical basis if you are in the 25 MPG average club. That calculates to about $1.50/ gal. in today's dollars and calculates to $0.39/gal. in 1975. BTW, gas peaked at $2.00/gal in 1975. At least we can feel good about the increase in efficiency over time. I'm sure we will do even better in the next 30 or so years.
So it ain't that bad! The increase in value of a gallon of gas is the ability to stretch it with your current value proposition on 4 or 2 wheels.
IMHO, if you take this into perspective, the sky is not falling. Variations in price have changed historically relative to international energy use patterns. The new supply and demand curve (relative to 1975) has change price patterns. Add in supply disruptions and speculative trading, and here we are!
Most likely not as the extra cost for the hybrid would take a while to recoup with its fuel savings. I could get a real good high mileage car for thousands less than a hybrid. So if saving money is the issue Hybrids are not the way to go.
Will you drive less?
Seeing that gas consumption is down a bit I think that is happening.
Will you switch to Asian makes?
Why? Asians cars really don't get that much better gas mileage.
Will you add accessories that help you save gas?
Is there one out there that will?
Will you drive in a more conservative manner... the so-called light-foot?
That I have done with positive results.
Before the 94 corolla I bought a chevy corsica in 88 new but after 6 years made the switch to toyota due to the poor workmanship of the chevy.
I had a Chevy Corsica but a 91. I put almost 150K on that car with no issues, the guy I sold it to put on better than 150K on it with few problems.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When someone pays you $50,000 more for the exact same house you bought a few years ago for $50,000 less, the house has not gone up in value, only in price.
No it has gone up in value or no one would have paid the $50K more for the house. The person that buys the house sees an additional $50K in value in the house or they wouldn't pay for it. Now you may have not done anything to the house, but thats not the only thing that drives property values. Other things that happen nearby can and do affect property values.
A case in point Shell Oil builds a refinery right behind your house. The value of your house will go down even though there was nothing done to your house to cause it to do down in value.
Now my house has gone up in value, in part due to stuff we have done to it but a lot of that increase in value has to do with what has been going on in the neighborhood and the village I live in. Now with the later I haven't done anything to my house to cause it to go up in value but I benefit from increased property values.
Note the term values not price.
So the value of a home can change even though nothing was done to that house.
You pay $5 a gallon for it on Tuesday and $5.10 on Wednesday because you are panicking, basically.
No I pay it because the alternative is to walk the ten miles to work and back again. Either that or stay home and starve to death.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I should say why does $4 worth of gas has more value to me than a diamond?
A better question would be is why does water in the airport cost $16+ per gallon. And the TSA will not let you bring in your own bottle. If that is not price gouging by a monopoly, What Is?
Comments
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Its for people that need a car for a few hours every now and again.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And then you forgot money you actually paid for gas....they go back and buy things again, pay more tax, then sell more gas....etc...etc...
As noted before, transactions are taxed.
The gov't doesn't want low gas prices or efficiency. They want to keep getting $5.25 every time I buy a gallon of gas.
Yes, so the govt can pay for goods and services that benefit us. I think it's funny when folks forget that the govt is us.
Gee, isn't this off topic?
Oh wait, no...."When gas goes over $4, I'm gonna overthrow the govt and have my own interstates and military."
That's the ticket
Visiting Host
How long have we been at a negative saving rate?
My main concern about rising fuel prices is, and always has been, how quickly and massively these high prices can literally SUCK money out of the economy at a dizzying rate of speed----faster than retail or our paychecks or budgets can possibly react.
It creates a very volatile economic climate and isn't predictable in consequences IMO.
About the most proactive thing I can think of to do is figure out NOW how to save 10-20% on fuel in the future, so that I'm at least doing my little teeny tiny share of lessening the often severe impact of sudden energy crises.
Visiting Host
In fact, I think some things like stocks, are actually counted as an expense! For instance, let's you buy a stock for $10, and sell it for $40 years later and use that money to buy a watch. For savings rate purposes, not only do they ignore the $30 capital gain, but they count the entire $40 as spending!
If oil went to $150 a barrel, where would your "wealth" go? Exactly......it's a bit of a chimera....
Visiting Host
I'm just not getting this. If I have a stock that I bought for $10, and sold for $40 a year later, what do you call that $30 in profit, then? And how is that different from if I put that same $10 into a savings account and, a year later, made 5 cents in interest? What's the difference between the 5 cents and the 30 bucks, except for the fact that there's a lot more of the other?
Of couse, the 5 cents is guaranteed, and you can't lose your initial $10, while there's the possibility that instead of making $30 in the stock, you could have nothing at all. But once it's sold, it's sold, and that's a solid profit.
I'm not trying to sound like a trust fund baby or anything, but I wouldn't be where I am financially if all I did was "save" strictly by the gov't definition of it.
And if oil went to $150 per barrel? Well, I do have some Exxon and Shell stock.
Your Shell stock has only gone up in price. Shell may or may not be producing one more drop of oil, just charging more for the stock based on speculation. So your wealth, and Shell's wealth, can all go POOF because it isn't real.
It's "all in your head" in many cases.
This seems logical to me, given how oil "futures" are an unregulated crap shoot with the stability of a Las Vegas dice table.
Visiting Host
Are you taking into account state and local taxes as well? Americans are taxed at three levels.
My advice, buy a big SUV while gas price is high.
The price reflects that value that people put on an object, whether it is a house or a share of stock.
The value reflects both tangible and intangible factors. In the case of stock prices, prices can go up because of the promise of increased earnings, which can be spurred by cost cutting, the development of a new techonology, or even changes in the marketplace that make the product or service produced by the parent company more valuable (so that more people want it, or people are willing to pay more for it).
A house can go up in value because of nearby construction (which can also drive DOWN the value, depending on what is being constructed - most people don't want to live close to a freeway or a major airport) or even changes in demographics (larger families mean fewer people want small houses).
The change in price reflects changes in value.
To completely divorce one from the other violates all rules of how markets work.
Mr. Shiftright: Shell may or may not be producing one more drop of oil, just charging more for the stock based on speculation.
Shell - along with any other publically offered company - does not ultimately set the price of its stock.
The market, which is made up of investors both large and small, sets the price.
Shell can attempt to influence the price by buying back shares, or coming up with new tehnology, or diversifying (to reduce the exposure of earnings to a cyclical industry, such as oil), but the market will ultimately determine the share price.
Shell management does not just wake up one morning and decide, "We'll charge $X for one share of Shell stock, and that's the take-it-or-leave-it price, and every investor will pay that price or else." The share price of stock for publically traded companies is not set that way.
Mr. Shiftright: So your wealth, and Shell's wealth, can all go POOF because it isn't real.
Shell's wealth is backed up by very real assets such as oil contracts, buildings, equipment and knowledge (not just anyone can extract oil from the ground).
The question is whether value of the assets, along with earning potential made possible by those assets, is accurately reflected in the price of the stock.
Maybe one day the market will not place the same value on those assets that it does today. But that doesn't that those assets aren't real.
Oh man would it be great to repossess the government sometime...
Hhmhhh whats that buzzing noise? Is there someone listening in? Is that the FBI, CIA, NSA, SPCA????
Hey you guys can't listen in anymore they sit it was illegal
Eruughhh uhhh Bush great whopee for the Patriot Act. I would gladly give up some essential liberty to purchase some temporary safety... :mad:
Well the stock value increase has occurred without any change in entropy as it's occurred in cyberspace, whereas physically building something results in increased entropy of the universe.
But then again cyberspace food is never very filling or tasty!
Gas prices may change as you are pumping your fuel.
Visiting Host
That probably is a good way to look at it. The federal budget for 2007 is around 2.8 trillion dollars. About $9,000 per capita. Now look at what services are provided in this country compared to other countries and also look at what these other countries have to spend per capita. I have no idea how the US would fair compared to other countries when viewed in this perspective but it would be interesting to find out. Oh yeah, that doesn't even take into consideration what we pay to the states so maybe we should be thinking in terms of what our collective governments have to spend, which is probably around $11-12k per capita.
Another thing to keep in mind. Even if you don't think you are getting $12k worth of government services are you actually contributing that much? If you're a single person making less than $50k you probably aren't. If you have a household of 4 then your household income needs to be around $140k before you're chipping in your share of the $12k per capita. My point is that even though our government is wasteful the fact that the rich pay such a high percentage of all tax revenue allows the rest of us to still get a decent return on our tax dollar.
If thats the case you have a very poor tax accountant.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If it is increasing in price it is increasing in value (especially if the price is outdoing inflation).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sadly as a whole we will never agree on what would be "fair".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If we both buy the same house in the same subdivision, and you do absolutely nothing to it and sell it for $50,000 more in 3 years, your house has only increased in price. It is the SAME house, same walls, same carpets. You haven't produced anything of value.
If I landscape my house, add a pool and hardwood floors and a slate shower, and sell mine for $100,000 more than I paid, at least $50000 of that is an increase in value, not just price.
You speculated, I rennovated, to achieve our respective goals. Also I gave jobs to people and improved the neighborhood.
If the gas station hangs a higher price on the same gas he had yesterday, it's only gone up in price. No value has been added to the gas is what I mean.
Subtle distinctions but real enough.
Visiting Host
Immaterial, as long as there is an increase greater than that of the inflation rate then there is an increase in value. Be it actual or perceived it has an increase.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Value: (văl"ū), n. 1. The property or aggregate properties of a thing by which it is rendered useful or desirable, or the degree of such property or sum of properties; excellence; utility; importance.
Price: (?), n. 1. that for which something is bought or sold, or offered for sale.
So you can change price without changing value and/or you can devalue or value-add and thus change the price. They are interrelated but not the same IMO.
Have you ever studied the English language? Many times the exact same thing can be said many different ways.
While you can change a price but at a new (presuminly higher) price if no one sees value in it the price will be meaningless and it will go back down to a point where it properly reflects the value.
Take your house example, if the price goes up $50K then someone must see an additional $50K in value of that house of it wouldn't sell for that price. Hence its value went up. Now you may have not done anything to cause it to go up in value but something did make it go up in value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Or maybe, in trying to keep a bit on topic, I should say why does $4 worth of gas has more value to me than a diamond?
If you owned a diamond or purchased a diamond that diamond would have value to you as you owned it and when you sold it. But as ghastly prices rise ever upward, ghastly itself becomes the prize and you need it. You don't need a diamond. At least I don't think you do! Item you need=valuable to you.
gagrice, Willcox, AZ was made famous by the "Singing Cowboy, Rex Allen." Yes, there are "Rex Allen Days" here in Willcox and his son comes in to the hospital in town to meet and greet everybody. There's a parade downtown, rides, etc. Rex passed away some time ago but Jr.keeps the ball rolling along. Also, FWIW, Tanya Tucker lived here in Willcox for a while and moved when she was 12 years old. Just found that tidbit out about a month ago.
Willcox also has Arizona's oldest operating store. The Willcox General Merchandise Store has been operating continuously since 1880. The old train station has been remodeled and is now City Hall. It's an adorable little community and is the coolest spot to live in in Arizona. By coolest I don't mean hippie cool I mean temperature cool. Willcox sits at 4,167 feet above sea level. It actually cools off at night here and you can sleep soundly because all of that hot air from the day earlier cools off about 30-40 degrees from what it was in the heat of the day. Coolio, huh?
Oh, gagrice, ghastly prices in this fair little town. They are ranging from $3.09/gal for 87 no-lead at the Mustang ghastly station to $3.19 at the Standard Chevron.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Is it about time to bring Maslow into the discussion?
it's the diamonds or perls being worn by the person you love that is the "investment".
Pearls' value, like diamonds, are determined by others.
Purchasing a new, more fuel efficient, vehicle requires energy to produce. As more of these vehicles are produced, they become less efficient because the cost to produce them uses more costly resources to be consumed.
Gas prices will rise to heat the production facility and have the factory workers drive to work to build the more fuel efficient vehicles.
What happens to your old, less fuel efficient, traded-in vehicle ?
Someone buys it and drives it as a used vehicle.
When diamonds start falling from the sky on a regular basis you can ask that question.
Not to mention that on our tenth anniversary if I would have given my wife a gallon of water she still wouldn't be talking to me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The value of anything is determined by others, its called the market. You may think that an item is worth so many dollars but if the market as a whole doesn't think so then in reality it isn't.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Anyway, I'm not in the states but in canada. In my area gas is right now selling for $5.19 a gallon. It went down a bit 10 days ago.
I'll tell you what people in the states will do (the huge majority)..they'll continue driving just the same way they are now. How do I know this you might ask, because that's what happened here in canada & people are still buying big trucks, suvs, "crossovers" (stupid class of vehicle), "mini-vans" as opposed to big vans? & full size cars just as much as they were. I see them on the roads all the time usually with no more than two people in them & very often just the driver. Rarely are the trucks used for work, no dirt, dents etc that used to be seen on real work trucks years ago. Where I live the province is flat, no big hills, mountains etc..along the coast of the atlantic but yet it seems a lot of consumers think they need four wheel drive etc..so for anyone complaining about the price of gas, if you bought anything bigger than what you really need in the past several years then look in the mirror & say hi to a big reason why demand is so high. You're part of the problem.
Finally it is somewhat on topic because we are discussing what gives value to something. By that we can get a greater understanding of what we, and others, will do when gas does hit $4/gallon and why we would do it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'll post the orginal question below.
"Will you switch to a hybrid? Will you dump your SUV/ truck for a car/ crossover? Will you drive less? Will you switch to Asian makes? Will you add accessories that help you save gas? Will you drive in a more conservative manner... the so-called light-foot?
Have you already taken steps such as those mentioned above? If yes, please tell us what you did and whether it helped. If not, tell us what you think you are going to do.
Also, if you were driving in 70s when oil rose to all time high, what did you do? And, did that help?"
No, I won't buy a hybrid. I had a corrolla from 94 to 02 then bought an ehco in 02. It sold pretty well in canada but people for the most part in the states didn't like the echo for it's ugly looks so it didn't sell.
I still have the echo, I get very close to 50mpg highway & around 43 around town.
Since prices began to continually go up I've driven less, 21,000 miles on the echo now, polished, waxed & in the garage when not in use with a car cover to protect it from the elements. I take extreemly good care of the cars paint, interior & mechanics. The car still has the green leaf on one back window from toyota that classified it as a green vehicle regarding emission. Rust checked yearly since I live near the ocean.
Before the 94 corolla I bought a chevy corsica in 88 new but after 6 years made the switch to toyota due to the poor workmanship of the chevy.
Never owned a "mini-van", truck, suv, "cross-over"..cross over what? (yes I can be sarcastic)
I don't drive above the posted speed limits & many times vehicles are passing me which doesn't bother me since I know I'll arrive maybe ten minutes later than they do & also save fuel too.
I drove in the 70's yes. when gas here was 68 cents an imperial gallon. Cars like a plymouth fury with a 440 commado engine ex police highway interceptor, two firebirds, one a 70 & a 72, 75 grand prix 455 cu engine & a couple of other big cars. I didn't switch to japanese cars like toyota then since their cars rusted bad fast.
I was looking back at figures for gas prices, in 94 it cost $24.42 to fill the corrola, today it costs $47. to fill the echo. I have cut back drastically my driving to the point where in the last 6 months I've put on 1,700 miles on the car..it's been garaged the rest of the time.
So I'm doing my part to keep demand down. I know not everyone can do this much but common, do you really need that big whatever you drive? The %age of people that do may be 25% of gas guzzlers on the roads at any given time tops.
When someone pays you $50,000 more for the exact same house you bought a few years ago for $50,000 less, the house has not gone up in value, only in price. The "price" is just in people's heads, the value-added is real carpet, real wood, real swimming pool. See the diff?
My point was that any economic model based strictly on what's in people's heads, without any tangible substantial increase in value of the object, is extremely precarious.
A gallon of gas going up dramatically in price every day, (way above healthy inflation rates) with no new additives, with no higher octane, is just a speculative rise in price and a dangerous development for economic health.
You pay $5 a gallon for it on Tuesday and $5.10 on Wednesday because you are panicking, basically. I suppose utter panic is a form of "supply and demand" but not one I want to be part of.
Unless you have an SUV, you are spending less for gas on a historical basis if you are in the 25 MPG average club. That calculates to about $1.50/ gal. in today's dollars and calculates to $0.39/gal. in 1975. BTW, gas peaked at $2.00/gal in 1975. At least we can feel good about the increase in efficiency over time. I'm sure we will do even better in the next 30 or so years.
So it ain't that bad! The increase in value of a gallon of gas is the ability to stretch it with your current value proposition on 4 or 2 wheels.
IMHO, if you take this into perspective, the sky is not falling. Variations in price have changed historically relative to international energy use patterns. The new supply and demand curve (relative to 1975) has change price patterns. Add in supply disruptions and speculative trading, and here we are!
Regards,
OW
Most likely not as the extra cost for the hybrid would take a while to recoup with its fuel savings. I could get a real good high mileage car for thousands less than a hybrid. So if saving money is the issue Hybrids are not the way to go.
Will you drive less?
Seeing that gas consumption is down a bit I think that is happening.
Will you switch to Asian makes?
Why? Asians cars really don't get that much better gas mileage.
Will you add accessories that help you save gas?
Is there one out there that will?
Will you drive in a more conservative manner... the so-called light-foot?
That I have done with positive results.
Before the 94 corolla I bought a chevy corsica in 88 new but after 6 years made the switch to toyota due to the poor workmanship of the chevy.
I had a Chevy Corsica but a 91. I put almost 150K on that car with no issues, the guy I sold it to put on better than 150K on it with few problems.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No it has gone up in value or no one would have paid the $50K more for the house. The person that buys the house sees an additional $50K in value in the house or they wouldn't pay for it. Now you may have not done anything to the house, but thats not the only thing that drives property values. Other things that happen nearby can and do affect property values.
A case in point Shell Oil builds a refinery right behind your house. The value of your house will go down even though there was nothing done to your house to cause it to do down in value.
Now my house has gone up in value, in part due to stuff we have done to it but a lot of that increase in value has to do with what has been going on in the neighborhood and the village I live in. Now with the later I haven't done anything to my house to cause it to go up in value but I benefit from increased property values.
Note the term values not price.
So the value of a home can change even though nothing was done to that house.
You pay $5 a gallon for it on Tuesday and $5.10 on Wednesday because you are panicking, basically.
No I pay it because the alternative is to walk the ten miles to work and back again. Either that or stay home and starve to death.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A better question would be is why does water in the airport cost $16+ per gallon. And the TSA will not let you bring in your own bottle. If that is not price gouging by a monopoly, What Is?