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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • @brian125 said:
    Love the interior in the VW.

    Me too. I wish it was in a different car. Like the new Merc GLA.

  • The new Motortrend (5/14) features an entry level luxury sedan comparo with the following four cars:

    Mercedes Benz CLA250
    BMW 320i
    Buick Regal Turbo
    VW CC R-line

    The reason I brought this up is that all 4 of these cars are very close to the $30k line, but few of them arena enticing except the 320i. A tempting price of $34,900 as tested, which means of course a real price of around $30. It won the comparo.

    Which car would you guys "step up" to, if you decided to trade your mid size in today?

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    I'd personally get neither. The G37 is a better car than those four in terms of what you get. Truecar has G37s listed at $29K. And that's not the absolute best price you can get, either.

    Of course, if you're talking about trading in your mid-size, why necessarily get another sedan? There are plenty of hot hatches, coupes, and convertibles out there as well.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542

    @cski said:
    The new Motortrend (5/14) features an entry level luxury sedan comparo with the following four cars:

    Mercedes Benz CLA250
    BMW 320i
    Buick Regal Turbo
    VW CC R-line

    The reason I brought this up is that all 4 of these cars are very close to the $30k line, but few of them arena enticing except the 320i. A tempting price of $34,900 as tested, which means of course a real price of around $30. It won the comparo.

    Which car would you guys "step up" to, if you decided to trade your mid size in today?

    I would definitely get the 320i. I've always really admired BMWs. But I don't think you can ever get one for 30k. Unlike the regular midsize sedans, which are discounted like crazy and have huge rebates + financing, I think BMWs are in enough demand that you'd only get c. $2k or so off of list. And it's rare to find a 320i that even lists for $35, since options often drive the price closer to 40. Things that are standard on a Civic, like a back-up camera, costs extra bucks on a BMW....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2014

    There are only 2 cars I could afford on the next level up. The 320 and the A3. The A3 is too small for my family so realistically it would be the 320i with the M Sport and convenience package. Now, if I went with leasing I could get the 328i or the A4. I just can't see leasing though. When the nest is empty then I can scratch that itch.

    plekto: I have 3 kids. I have to have a decent back seat!

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited April 2014

    The G37 has a larger back seat than the 3 series. The main problem I have with the 3 series is that the 1 is a better expression of the car's roots in that it's lighter, more agile, and more fun. Also, that unless you want flat black or plain white, they charge you $550 for any color paint. $31.5K is the lowest I can find a 3 series with any paint with color in it.

    Audi is similar. $500 for any color other than black or white. The idea that you have a low entry-level option but it's so horridly de-contented compared to the main model that's $5K more is always a bit galling to me. That's the sort of rental-fodder trick GM made famous decades ago.

    As for the best sedan for the money right now, the Ford Fusion has to be my pick.

  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    edited April 2014

    Fun game, step up from mainstream midsize to entry luxury. I want to love the new Acura TLX. It appears to be, essentially, my Accord, but with better looks and luxury materials/features. If I could take a couple steps up... Lexus GS350 is my favorite of that class.

    But given my preference for a manual transmission, I see few choices outside of BMW once you get above $30K, assuming you still want a sedan. I expect to stick with what I have until I don't need a back seat any longer, and then 70% of the grocery budget can be reallocated to driving a real sports car.

    Edit:
    Appears you can still get some Audis with a manual (A3, A4, S3). For comparable size though, 535 seems to be the only option. But again, I'll probably go two-door (Mustang GT, C7?) as soon as I can throw practicality back out of the equation.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,335

    ATS can be had with a stick. And I think a regal.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • @ahightower said:
    Fun game, step up from mainstream midsize to entry luxury. I want to love the new Acura TLX. It appears to be, essentially, my Accord, but with better looks and luxury materials/features. If I could take a couple steps up... Lexus GS350 is my favorite of that class.

    But given my preference for a manual transmission, I see few choices outside of BMW once you get above $30K, assuming you still want a sedan. I expect to stick with what I have until I don't need a back seat any longer, and then 70% of the grocery budget can be reallocated to driving a real sports car.

    Edit:
    Appears you can still get some Audis with a manual (A3, A4, S3). For comparable size though, 535 seems to be the only option. But again, I'll probably go two-door (Mustang GT, C7?) as soon as I can throw practicality back out of the equation.

    This is all just a mental exercise, but I really do think after all is said and done, it will come down to BMW or Audi, and I am interested in their 3.0T engined models. I am not going with a 4 cyl on a sports car I have waited a long time for!

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    The new Mustang is a fantastic car if you can ignore the lack of two rear doors. I hear that the rear seat will be larger than the previous version and have more headroom, making it not so terrible for your rear passengers. Kind of like, how GM used to make 4 and 2 door versions of the same car years ago. Something to look forward to in a few years, perhaps?

    As for now, I'd keep it cheap as possible and just use the car as a family beater until then. I would personally look at finding a 2-3 year old CPO C class with manual. Or an A4 with manual. Both will be close to $25K and offer you several good years of driving without having to have a part of your soul die every time you drive automatic.

    note - I have nothing against automatics, but for those who want and love manuals, there is ZERO joy in anything with an automatic in it.

  • The Mustang is another car on the bucket list. Believe it or not, I have already owned one. A 79 Mustang 5.0 V8. It had 120 hp. The heater core went on it.and it sprayed antifreeze all over the cabin. Awesome.

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    @plekto said:

    note - I have nothing against automatics, but for those who want and love manuals, there is ZERO joy in anything with an automatic in it.

    I beg to differ. I just drove a Ferrari 458 Italia on a race track in full auto mode. It was faster and better than any manual. Of course the tranny also cost more than a new Fusion. :wink:

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2014

    A Ferrari 458 in full race! Please elaborate! I think everyone will understand an off topic post for such a special occasion!

    plekto: OMG, that must be why I see so many black and white BMW's, because they are base models. I didn't know that. Sure enough, the BMW 320i that M/T tested was white and had only 1 option. One other thing: there is also zero joy in replacing a clutch, throw-out bearing and pressure plate for $1800.

    Traffic here kills manuals, and the legs that pump them!

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    Xtreme Xperience let's you drive supercars on a race track with an instructor. Best $300 ever spent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr6DRlU0YUk

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    Listen for the downshifts - fully automatic.

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469

    @akirby said:
    Listen for the downshifts - fully automatic.

    Would still far prefer a manual.

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,161

    @akirby said:
    Listen for the downshifts - fully automatic.

    Yep, I've done that here in Colorado. Ferrari 430 Convertible.

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    @akirby said:
    ... see so many black and white BMW's, because they are base models. I didn't know that. Sure enough, the BMW 320i that M/T tested was white and had only 1 option. One other thing: there is also zero joy in replacing a clutch, throw-out bearing and pressure plate for $1800.

    Traffic here kills manuals, and the legs that pump them!

    I drive 70 miles a day, round trip, in Los Angeles rush hour traffic. No leg problems since I use my torque and gearing to do what I want (mostly by staying in 2nd and 3rd gear). You need to keep your speed the same and ignore small gaps in traffic in front of you. If you try to maintain the same distance all the time like in an automatic, you will kill your leg. That said, you can't pull this trick with an econobox, either, since you need a couple hundred lb-ft of torque to not bog down at lower rpms.

    As for cost, I've never had to replace all of that at once. A clutch is a fraction of the cost of an automatic to replace. The automatic in a 3 series is typically between 5 and 6K to replace if it dies. I've never had to pay even half of $1800 to fix a manual, but even if I did, I could do it three times for the cost of the automatic.

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469

    Never had to replace any part of any clutch I have ever had. 235k in Integra, 178k in Accord. Brother put 350k on a G20 stick with no clutch issues. If you are not hard on a clutch it will outlast the car.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278

    My '85 MR2 needed a throwout bearing when I sold it in 1989 with about 40,000 miles. I don't know what that does exactly, but I can't imagine it was due to abuse.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    That's what the clutch pedal activates to disengage the clutch from the flywheel.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Often misdiagnosed. It can only make noise with the clutch pedal pushed in. If you have a clutch type noise with the pedal released, that stops when you push in, then you probably have a transmission bearing issue.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2014

    It depends greatly on the car and how you drive it. My 94 SHO cost $1800 after 98k. While the trans is open you might as well replace all three clutch components. On a rear drive car it is cheaper than a front drive hot-rod Ford with a Yamaha engine. I loved that car. I believe it was a kit, now that I think of it.. A long time ago.

  • @akirby said:
    Listen for the downshifts - fully automatic.There is one in Richmond (Richard Petty D/S) and one at VIR, which I am dying to go to. The 458 would be my choice too!

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    edited April 2014

    Replaced the clutch (throw our bearing & pressure plate) on my 2001 Prelude Type SH @ 52,000 miles to the tune of approximately $2200. This is a known problem among Type SH Preludes. Since I was spending the money, I didn't trust another Honda clutch so I replaced it with a Centerforce Clutch. With over 151,000 miles (and almost 100K on the new clutch), I think I made the right choice:)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469

    @ab348 said:
    My '85 MR2 needed a throwout bearing when I sold it in 1989 with about 40,000 miles. I don't know what that does exactly, but I can't imagine it was due to abuse.

    Something as simple as idling with the clutch depressed (instead of in neutral) is considered abuse.

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681

    @ab348 said:
    My '85 MR2 needed a throwout bearing when I sold it in 1989 with about 40,000 miles. I don't know what that does exactly, but I can't imagine it was due to abuse.

    I had to replace my throwout bearing (disengages the engine from the transmission) and the clutch with just a summer of driving (when I was a teenager)...and it was because of abuse. Fun times, but expensive...

  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539

    I theorize that almost everyone still driving a manual is an enthusiast of sorts who actually wanted the stick and knows how to use it. At least in newer cars, anyway. There are probably some old manual beaters being tortured at the hands of novices who had no choice in what they are driving. But even on an extremely tight budget, it's hard to get "stuck" with a manual. Automatics are simply everywhere. I'm expecting that relative scarcity to benefit me on the resale value of my Accord down the line. While hardly a collectible, I suspect that a well-cared-for pre-owned Accord Sport 6MT will be sought out by a certain type of buyer (likes to drive, and is afraid of old Honda automatics). I'm looking at Auto Trader listings showing about 50% retained value after 150K miles... ridiculous. Lightly used (2012-newer, < 40K miles), forget about it. $20K? Might as well just buy new, which is what I did...

  • Actually, when I have gone to trade in past cars with an M/T, the dealer is always like "Well, we could give you more if it wasn't a stick".

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949

    And that's reasonable because automatics typically add about ~$1,000 to the cost of a car, plus there is a much bigger demand for automatics. Thus I've almost always sold my non-leased cars with a stick myself, either to a family member or someone who appreciated having a stick. The only exception in the last 20+ years was a 328 Ci, and I had no problem getting a good trade-in deal on that as many 3 Series buyers prefer a stick.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,542

    midsize sales for April....

    Camry 38,009

    Accord 34,124

    Fusion 26,435

    Altima 25,004

    Sonata 20,495

    Malibu 19,944

    Optima 14,589

    Avenger 7,324

    200 4,204

    Mazda6 3,817

    Legacy 3,126

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469

    @cski said:
    Actually, when I have gone to trade in past cars with an M/T, the dealer is always like "Well, we could give you more if it wasn't a stick".

    Dealers say that about everything. They always have a reason to lowball you. I had a dealer appraise my minivan just to see what he would say. Offered me half of full retail or $2,000 less than wholesale. I asked why so low and he said I needed new tires. $2,000 below wholesale is way more than 4 new tires. I then told him these were my summer tires and I had 4 brand new snow tires on separate rims, so I really had brand new tires plus a spare set . I asked what the value would be now that my "problem" was solved. He said it would not change.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491

    @dudleyr‌

    Yup, the dealers are always full of horse poo. They offer you less money for a car that's a stick, then turn around and advertise it as "rare 6-speed manual" and ask more money than a comparable automatic:)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    The problem with a dealer taking a manual is that it only sells to a very specific customer and if you don't have that customer it can sit on the lot for months. It's the same reason they don't stock new ones either. Might be more potential profit but it's a much riskier investment.

  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539

    @akirby said:
    The problem with a dealer taking a manual is that it only sells to a very specific customer and if you don't have that customer it can sit on the lot for months. It's the same reason they don't stock new ones either. Might be more potential profit but it's a much riskier investment.

    I don't disagree. But private party is another story. Once the buyer who wants the stick finds your posting, there will not be much haggling.

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited May 2014

    benjaminh posted : midsize cars sales for april.

    Altima 25,004

    Sonata 20,495

    Malibu 19,944

    Optima 14,589

    Avenger 7,324

    200 4,204

    Mazda6 3,817

    Legacy 3,126

    Very suprising how bad the mazda6 gets in sales. This model should be outselling the Dodge avenger. What would make folks buy a dodge over the mazda 6 .. Maybe its price ?? If I had my choice between both vehicles mazda wins hands down . Even with there noisy engines

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,335

    I think Mazda is still more coastal. The big part of the heartland is going to have way more dodge and Chrysler dealers. Also a more mainstream car.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    Stick,

    Thoughtful answer about the heartland states. you may be right. What I always liked about those 12 heartland states is around election time they are called the Red states. Still there are 36 other states not including the 2 in the water that should make up more sales than 3800 units. Mazda reviews from CR, Motor trend, Edmunds are very good..

    The only person I know that bought a 2014 Avenger bought for deep discounts on the vehicle.

    Hopefully someone will come out of the woods in the heartland to helps us

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723

    There are a few Mazda dealers locally, but I still rarely see the new 6, although I just saw a new one at work.
    They look decent overall, but have some bad styling areas, the grille and 'C' pillar.

    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    The Avenger is a very harmless type of car. Excels at nothing but does everything "okay". And yes, price.

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181

    Mazda has probably one fourth the number of Chrysler/Dodge dealerships and outside major cities in the midwest you have to really hunt to find a Mazda dealership. Every small farm town has either a Ford, GM or Chrysler type dealership or combination of one or two. Even Toyota dealerships are fewer than the big three but they tend to be pretty big dealerships in larger towns. Also, I don't think Mazda sells a lot of the 6 to rental agencies. Also, I think a lot of government agencies buy the domestics too. Mazda is a small company like Subaru and the 3 is there bread and butter. So, bottom line, there are a lot of reasons why the Avenger, which is being sold at fire sale prices as it is being discontinued, would outsell the Mazda6 right now. Certainly not because it's a better car. If sales were the only determinant of quality than the Camry would be the best car year after year.

    Just saw an article about how Mazda had more profit in their current FY than anytime in their 94 year history. Here's a link......

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/25/mazda-record-profits-highest-94-years/

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278

    @explorerx4 said:
    There are a few Mazda dealers locally, but I still rarely see the new 6, although I just saw a new one at work.
    They look decent overall, but have some bad styling areas, the grille and 'C' pillar.

    The Mazda is a nice-looking car overall but the schnozz and the overly long hood/front clip do it no favors. The interior is pretty blah also. Auto journalists love Mazda, but the buying public does not seem to share that view.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2014

    @brian125 said:
    benjaminh posted : midsize cars sales for april.

    Altima 25,004

    Sonata 20,495

    Malibu 19,944

    Optima 14,589

    Avenger 7,324

    200 4,204

    Mazda6 3,817

    Legacy 3,126

    Very suprising how bad the mazda6 gets in sales. This model should be outselling the Dodge avenger. What would make folks buy a dodge over the mazda 6 .. Maybe its price ?? If I had my choice between both vehicles mazda wins hands down . Even with there noisy engines

    Man I don't have a clue on the 6. I am starting to see more of the 3 (which I can barely tell apart except in overall length). As I mentioned before my neighbor bought a 3, with black/black color "scheme". Might as well put Darth Vader sound effects through the stereo (of his ship, not the asthma breathing thing)

    When I do see them on the road, they don't really do it for me except in red. Could it be just that? Wrong colors? Or is it that America isn't quite sure about Mazda? I really, honestly have no idea.

    I can tell you one thing about the CX-5. Ugly from the back. I was really surprised, because the rest of it is a good looking CUV.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,335

    speaking of dealers, last week I did a road trip from Jersey to S. Carolina (down 95), then back up through Charlotte and down 85 back up north. It seemed like every other exit on 95, and a couple places off 77 (rock hill for one) had a massive Honda dealer right off the exit, easily viewable from the highway. Must be popular in the Carolinas!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,161

    @stickguy said:
    speaking of dealers, last week I did a road trip from Jersey to S. Carolina (down 95), then back up through Charlotte and down 85 back up north. It seemed like every other exit on 95, and a couple places off 77 (rock hill for one) had a massive Honda dealer right off the exit, easily viewable from the highway. Must be popular in the Carolinas!

    I'm sure half of them are owned by Rick Hendrick.

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738

    One wonders how much the sales would fall if rental and fleet sales were removed from the equation.

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited May 2014

    My guess is that the Accord would by far lead in terms of retail sales, and for a few cars like the Mazda6 and Legacy the numbers wouldn't change much. And I bet most of the Avengers went to fleets--pretty cheap for a mid-sized car (or "full size" car as some rental companies like to call mid-sized cars).

    One thing that's usually overlooked is that when Hyundai/Kia is considered as a whole, its mid-sized sales are near the top of the charts... in this case, 2nd behind the Camry.

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    Fleet sales are good if managed properly. Even rental sales. The key is not to fleet dump - overproducing and selling them to fleets at bargain prices or super cheap models and flooding the used car market.

  • allezallez Member Posts: 21

    $4k difference between price I was offered for a Mazda 6 GT with Tech package vs Honda Accord EX-L/Nav. Mazda wouldn't come down in price, so I got the Honda.

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181

    Maybe that is the way Mazda is making record profits.....not discounting as much. Probably, among other reasons I already mentioned, the 6 is not seen as much. I've seen many advertisements in the Chicago area for new Camry LEs at over $5500 off MSRP. I've seen a couple of ads for Avengers at over $6000 off. I don't see many ads at all for Mazda so either their marketing help to dealers is very small or the dealers are selling enough to make good profit without "blowing them out".

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