Midsize Sedans 2.0

backy

I see GM is offering dealers $7000 incentive on unsold Saturns and Pontiacs. But I read that the catch is the cars have to first move to a rental or loaner situation, meaning they would be sold as a used car. Still, might be a way to pick up a leftover Aura or G6 at a really good price. I've seen very low prices for G6s already, before this incentive was announced--around $13k for a $22k G6. They may not be the greatest mid-sizers available, but at that kind of price, might make sense. Long-term parts and service availability is a question in my mind, though.

This reminds me... maybe it's time to retire the photo of the Aura to the right?? How about putting the all-new Legacy there, or even the 2011 Optima--to pair up with the photo of the 2011 Sonata?

mz6greyghost

This reminds me... maybe it's time to retire the photo of the Aura to the right?? How about putting the all-new Legacy there, or even the 2011 Optima--to pair up with the photo of the 2011 Sonata?

My vote's for the Legacy.

berri

GM is offering dealers $7000 incentive on unsold Saturns and Pontiacs

Even though they are requiring the dealer to retitle and sell as used, this is likely going to screw over all recent Pontiac and Saturn buyers big time on depreciation. Probably won't help similar Chevy offerings owners either at resale. Thanks GM, not only did you suck up tax dollars, but now you're hurting your customers as well - Nice! Glad your eye is on the customer - LOL

m6user

If they bought recently they know they are taking a chance on resale value as the resale on these cars was already in the tanks. Resale values go down on model changes or deletions, let alone when the company goes out of business. However, agree that 7K adds salt to the wound.

Hey, look at the upside. The taxpayers could get their money back sooner if all this works.

backy

Somewhat related to the demise of Saturn... the main beneficiary is Buick, which gets the Opel Insignia, now tweaked as the Regal, rather than Saturn getting it as the next-gen Aura as GM originally planned. In photos the Regal looks like a credible entry in the mid-sized class, albeit at the high end--but maybe not too different in price from a similarly-equipped Accord, Camry, Mazda6, Passat, Altima, or Malibu. The most interesting comparison though might be with the 2011 Sonata, since both the Regal and Sonata are going with DI I4s only, at least initially, with a turbo I4 in the wings. They are almost the same length, although the Sonata has more interior space. Good summary comparing the Regal and Sonata here:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/12/2011-buick-regal-vs-2011-hyunda- i-sonata-we-compare-the-specs.html

How about it? Will the Regal sell against the likes of upper-trim Sonatas, Camcords, Passat, etc.? Or will it just steal sales from the LaCrosse?

berri

How about it? Will the Regal sell against the likes of upper-trim Sonatas, Camcords, Passat, etc.? Or will it just steal sales from the LaCrosse?

My guess is that they'll overprice it initially and blow another opportunity.

backy

It will be interesting to see how the Regal is priced. It's supposed to be slotted under the LaCrosse, which starts at about $30k for the CXL. I read the Regal will be available only in CXL trim at first. So say the Regal starts at $27k. But that is pretty loaded, with leather etc. For comparison, an Accord EX-L I4 is $27.5k, and the Malibu LTZ I4 starts at $27.7k. So if the Regal can start at around $27-28k, that would be in the ballpark. In fact, at that price it could steal sales from the Malibu.

stephen987

For comparison, an Accord EX-L I4 is $27.5k, and the Malibu LTZ I4 starts at $27.7k. So if the Regal can start at around $27-28k, that would be in the ballpark.

But real-world transaction prices for both of those are closer to $25k. . .

backy

Yes, I was comparing MSRPs, since real-world prices are highly variable. I expect the Regal will also be available at a discount, once the "gotta be the first on my block with a Regal" buyers are satisfied.

dodgeman07

So if the Regal can start at around $27-28k, that would be in the ballpark.

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In a solid economic climate, $27K for a 2011 Regal might make the cut. In 2010 in won't. Buick needs to bring the Regal in under $25K and I believe they will offer a CXL with the 182HP DI 4 powerplant for $24,995.

It's what they need to do to grow the brand and start competing again. The free credit line from the U.S. Treasury will run dry in 10 months and counting......

backy

Consider that a 2010 Sonata Limited (old design) I4 with mats is $25,370, and as I noted the Malibu LTZ I4 is over $27k. So I don't follow your reasoning that the Regal CXL should list for under $25k to be competitive. That would certainly qualify as best deal around in the mid-sized class, and at that price Buick might sell all the Regals they can make. But at what cost? It would cannibalize sales of their own LaCrosse as well as the Malibu.

jeffyscott

...once the "gotta be the first on my block with a Regal" buyers are satisfied

...all 3 of them?

dave8697

Can you look up on the internet, say that Sonata is 18,800, and then go to a dealer and ask to see the 18,800 cars? I highly doubt it.

Malibu is currently 3000 or so more than a Sonata base to base. The rebate cuts that down to 1300-1400 more for the Malibu. The rebate ends Monday. Is Sonata cutting into everybody's sales due to lower price?

I'd like to find those G6's for 14k. Too bad in midwest all dealers sold out long ago. I'd have to go to where D3 cars are shunned to find one left.

backy

Might be a lot more than that--at least 7 or 8. Seriously, it looks like a pretty fine car to me, on paper and in photos. Might appeal to someone who wants to buy "USA", doesn't mind an I4, and/or doesn't like the styling of the 2011 Sonata. The Regal's lines are less polarizing than the Sonata's.

8babies1dog

I beg to differ, Hyundai USA as of now has only 1 plant and it is in
Alabama. Yes they do build the SUV, but if you read my original post
on this subject you will see I wrote only Sonata in the (car class). Now
someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Backi had already clarified the
SUV issue. But thanks for bringing it up.

tlong

Honda Dealer...One Person
the mechanics.....who gets their Honda fixed? If they didn't have a Honda it would break less?

Dealerships employ a lot more than one person. Quit drinking the UAW koolaid. You don't really believe that, do you?

honda assy workers....you mean robots half the time

So you don't want any automation in US assembly plants? Assemble cars by hand? That's really forward-looking for this country.

engine plant workers....5% of the car including materials. When will that become robotized? When 2-3% is worth going after...pretty soon.

So some jobs in US are important, and others are not?

Electric power plant employees....one person per state
trash men.....pollute our country for profits sent to Japan. This may be the Best part of Colonizing, aside from tax abatements followed by a recession to justify a much smaller training program.

It's obvious that it is not about jobs, it's about the jobs YOU want to save. UAW jobs from failed companies.

advertising agency....at least somebody who went to college got a job, or does Japan own the advertising seller?

Madison County only lost 31,000 auto jobs. No pain from that.

You've still not answered an earlier question. If efficiency is unimportant, then why not hire 50K more workers for GM? Subsidize the line with taxes from high earning US citizens. GM and C are laying off. How can you let them do that? I realize that the success of the parent company is not important to you.

jona57

Late to discussion-but here goes:
Looked for nice mid-size to replace my beloved 01 Chrysler 300M. Wanted near-luxury appointments, fun drive, cargo room with fold-down seat (for my bike), and 4 cyl (hate sending $$$ to oil barons-foreign or domestic). Midsize really is sweet-spot of market with many great vehicles. Brief impressions-
Malibu- Nice styling in/out, solid handling, good ride, but high net street price for LTZ (leather, top-end stereo)
Aura/G6- Malibu orphan clones,VERY limited inventory left,? residual value?
Camry- Quiet, smooth ride, but soft handling, ugly (subjective) & high street price (leather)
Fusion- Nice styling in/out, solid handling, cool ambient lighting, Sych stereo, ride a little stiff- deal-breaker: long front seat cushion was very uncomfortable for wife (short legs)
Sonata ('10)- Quiet, smooth ride, roomy, bland styling, great value (esp w/nav), soft handling (but better than Camry), 5yr warranty, 4cyl unrefined under acceleration but 6 was sweet with decent mpg (EPA 29 hwy).
Mazda 6- Sporty, solid handling but stiffer ride, pricey w/leather.
Accord- quality interior, strong 4, solid handling, but pricey & rear seat pass-through small with top-end stereo (amp/speakers intrude).
Sebring- Limited has nice leather interior, quiet, top crash test ratings, but drivetrain a little unrefined. Might be a value at lower price.

Bought: '10 Altima 2.5S (leather, all options except nav)- Nice styling in/out, great Bose stereo, sharp handling with decent ride, quick 4 cyl (only ~1 sec slower 0-60 vs most 6's), quiet, great real-world mpg for midsize, rear camera,dual chrome exhaust; CVT drives nice & has simulated 6sp manual mode to play. Downsides are limited rear seat headroom for tall adults & no power passenger's seat (also true of Sonata & Accord 4).

dodgeman07

So I don't follow your reasoning that the Regal CXL should list for under $25k to be competitive.

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A couple of points in the reasoning. GM needs to get away from rebates soon. Say they put a $28K sticker on the new Regal - they will have to offer $2K rebates to move them - what do they gain?

The Regal is a very small mid-size car, barely larger than a compact. The Malibu is a larger car and the Sonata is almost a full size car. Your price quotes include the destination charge which advertised pricing often does not. Offering a $24,995 Regal will help get customers in the door - something GM desperately needs. Yeah they'll tack on a $800 destination charge to make $25.8K, but that's still a good price.

If GM continues on the path they're on, they have less the 24 months to live. They need revolutionary change and conquest sales in 2010. "Steady as she goes" won't get it done.

backy

I think you replied to the wrong post.

Regardless... I don't think introducing top-notch vehicles like the Malibu and Regal, and straying from the mid-sized family car class, the LaCrosse, CTS, Acadia/Enclave/Traverse, Equinox/Terrain, and the Cruze, is "steady as she goes." Provide a quality car, and you can charge the going rate for them. Fire sale prices are only needed when the car is not competitive.

dodgeman07

Yeah - I did reply to the wrong post.

I realize GM is building competitive vehicles today and has been for the last 4 or 5 years. I drive one and like it.

GM has burnt so many bridges over the last 30 years that building a good vehicle (finally) and expecting to charge the same price or more as proven (and unsubsidized) competitors will lead to more rebates and incentives to move inventory.

GM has a 50/50 chance of making it through the next two years. The gov't gravy train (aka Obama Express) will be de-railed very soon. GM needs a Hyundai/Kia marketing approach for their remaining brands (except Cadillac). Their current marketing does not do the brand's justice and their website is poor.

The Regal will not sell at high volumes. That slot falls to the Cruze which ironically is coming in with identical EPA Interior Volume numbers (111 cu.ft.). I hope GM survives. The Cruze might be my next car. For $18K you'll get 90% of the car a $28K Regal will be.

P.S. I agree that most Regals we'll see on lots next summer will be $28K-$29K.

imidazol97

>to charge the same price or more as proven (and unsubsidized) competitors

Which of those competitors are unsubsidized? Haven't most other companies received subsidy from their governments (Japan) at least Toyota and Honda? If not now, they did in the years ago past when they were selling into the US market.

pat

Once again, this conversation belongs in Auto News. Going forward, off topic posts of this nature will be removed without notice. Thank you for your cooperation.

mz6greyghost

*Respectfully bows down*

Thank you!

One more thing: Will the Aura on the right be replaced? I'm still voting Legacy for it's replacement...

backy

I don't know about the Legacy... good car, but smaller market share compared to the Optima and probably the new Regal. Maybe it would be more fair to replace the Aura with another GM car... like the Regal.

aviboy97

I don't know about the Legacy... good car, but smaller market share compared to the Optima and probably the new Regal. Maybe it would be more fair to replace the Aura with another GM car... like the Regal.

I'm all for the Legacy. Out of the current cars there, the Passat and the Mazda6 have very very small market shares. The Optima is too close to the Sonata, IMO, It's like having the Fusion and Milan up there. I know that the Milan and Fusion are closer then the Optima and Sonata, but, I think you get the idea.

The Regal might be a complete bust.

Put a check in the box for Legacy for me!

backy

If you are going by sales volume, the Mazda6 outsells the Legacy. The Passat does have a small volume, fewer than 1000 a month. Maybe we should replace the Passat with the Legacy?

I'll bet the Regal will easily outsell the likes of the Legacy and Mazda6. The Legacy sold only 30k units last year, the Mazda6 35k.

kdhspyder

Winners and Losers in the midsized auto segment...Who were they and why?

Of the offerings from the top 7 makers GM, T, F, H, N, C-F, H

In 2008 the midsized autos accounted for 1,595,000 sales
In 2009 the midsized autos accounted for 1,340,000 sales - 16%

However not every maker was -16%. Who got who's sales in 2009?
Should have lost .. Actually lost
Camry ..... -70K ...... -81K ....Net : -11K
Accord..... -60K ...... -83K ....Net : -23K
Altima...... -43K ...... -66K ....Net : -23K
Fusion...... -24K ...... +33K ...Net : +57K
Malibu...... -28K ...... -16K ....Net : +12K
Sebring.... -11K ...... -45K ....Net : -34K
Sonata.... -19K ...... +3K ......Net : +22K

The Malibu got 12K sales from the Camry
The Fusion and the Sonata ate the lunches of the Accord, Altima and Sebring.

backy

I think this shows buyers are finally waking up to the fact that there are many excellent alternatives in the mid-sized sedan ranks. It didn't hurt that the Fusion was refreshed for 2009 (and was already a very good car), as was the Sonata, and the Malibu is relatively new and also much improved over its prior generation. Also the Sonata and to some extent the Fusion and Malibu have a real-world price advantage over the Camcords. Which doesn't hurt in today's economic reality.

gooddeal2

Also the Sonata and to some extent the Fusion and Malibu have a real-world price advantage over the Camcords. Which doesn't hurt in today's economic reality.

I agreed...but I'm not sure how many people actually want to get these cars instead of the Camry, Altima, or the Accord b/c of their tight budgets OR b/c they think that the Sonata, Fusion or Malibu is as good as or even better than the other three.

acdii

I agreed...but I'm not sure how many people actually want to get these cars instead of the Camry, Altima, or the Accord b/c of their tight budgets OR b/c they think that the Sonata, Fusion or Malibu is as good as or even better than the other three.

Their loss Knowing what the Camry is like personally, and knowing the Fusion is a better care, i can thumb my noses at them and say, sucker! :P