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G35/7 January-April '08: 24,552 (16,592 sedan + 7,600 coupe) (off 45.9% this year)
Sorry, but anyone with their eyes open can see that American jobs, especially the good ones, are going away, and THAT has resulted in less money coming into the SS coffers.
The UAW worker pays enough tax to pay for the $18k gov. car, EACH YEAR.
The difference in resale is $2k after 5 years. ONE TIME. that is a 45 to 1 ratio.
The repair doesn't enter into it. The repair dollars stayed in America and created more tax to buy gov. car with.
GM imports 85,000 vehicles a year. I think they sell $260 billion worth of vehicles. So they import 3%? The Aveo? They cost a lot.
A transplant job paying $40k is OK if your spouse works and you plan on the gov helping you pay for your kids college. It's not going to help the SS system. Maybe just do minimal damage. An engineer who lost his job at the GM tech center paying $80k, was helping SS and gets no college aid. They also pay as much as triple the tax of a $40k income. The whole transplant system is to appease us with base level jobs in order to gain half of all our vehicle market dollars. Now we are a country on the path of decline and we think the elected officials can legislate our way out of this.
I've found it interesting that social security started as a subsidy, now the people have been baited by vote-hungry politicians into believing it's a full-fledged retirement plan.
I find it interesting that many people feel a college education paid for by someone else, usually the taxpayers, is a life right.
> It's not going to help the SS system.
SS is a major problem. Can't buy votes cutting back on payouts of "free" money. The reality comes back to jobs. All the jobs that are overseas don't pay SS. All the people driving their imports while collecting or planning to collect SS are part of the problem, whether they try to justify that a few of the company's cars are assembled in plants with US labor or not; the engineering and planning are done by the home country folk.
>Now we are a country on the path of decline and we think the elected officials can legislate our way out of this.
Worse than that, people just elected a group that plans to spend their way out with deficit spending big time.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Spouse? Kids? Both aren't cost-effective at $40K a year. Resign yourself to viewing internet porn unless some trashy welfare hoochie-mama is your ideal woman! Heck, supporting yourself in a one-bedroom apartment in a marginal neighborhood while shopping at the Food Basics in the 'hood is going to be enough of a challenge. You can set aside enough each month for that second-hand Taurus pistol you've been eying up at the local gun shop. You'll need it where you're living! Of course you still can treat yourself to a nice 1995 Hyundai Elantra from Big Al's Buy-Here-Pay-Here lot and get that minimum coverage auto insurance. "Won't I be underinsured?" "What are you worrying about? If they sue you, you've got nothing to lose anyway!"
So as we enjoy this race to the bottom, we can look at our "global economy." "The world is one market" means that prices are similar around the world (crap from China at WalMart here is the same $$ as it is in China). Good for us, cheap goods. Here is the part they didn't tell you...WAGES DO THE SAME THING. Not for manufacturing, but for everybody. I figure between the folks I am training in Mexico and Brazil to do my job, and the folks my European teammates are training in India to do our jobs, I have about 5 years left as an engineer with advanced degrees. After that, I am right in there with the Wal Mart greeter looking for a living wage. And national healthcare.
The only think I have going for me is all the wealthy folks are going to create serfdoms where I can live and work the land (I am actually hoping this will be my ticket from bankrupt Michigan to bankrupt California, where they will be called "surfdoms").
Where am I going, and how did I get in this bucket?
That makes my point. The UAW unskilled worker is OVERPAID by about double. That makes his job vulnerable. If he was making the going rate for UNSKILLED labor in the USA, his job would not be in jeopardy. The UAW worker also took the SKILLED engineer with him into the quagmire.
GM imports 85,000 vehicles a year. I think they sell $260 billion worth of vehicles. So they import 3%? The Aveo? They cost a lot.
For GM to survive they will have to import more cars. If your $260B is correct and I think it may be in error, that would be $27,500 per vehicle sold World wide. That was in 2007 when GM sold 9.369, 524 vehicles worldwide. Sadly they make money in most of the World. If they could dump the USA market and their horrid UAW wages & legacy costs, they could make money here.
Now we are a country on the path of decline and we think the elected officials can legislate our way out of this.
That is true. I don't think they will do anything but make it worse.
GM was for decades the largest corporation in the world -- and until last year the largest automaker in the world. GM has been in the Dow Jones Industrial Average since 1925 and was an original member of the predecessor of the S&P 500 -- the Standard Services index of 90 stocks created in 1925 -- and the 500, created in 1957.
GM had a market capitalization of $52 billion in 2000; today it's worth $740 million.
Despite the stock swoon, neither Dow Jones nor S&P said it was immediately planning to remove GM from the indexes.
John Prestbo, editor and executive director of Dow Jones Indexes, said GM is still contributing to the index.
"Our job is to run an index, not to run a popularity poll for stocks; and in our view, at this point, GM is helping the Dow tell the story of the stock market," Prestbo said.
GM would only learn it was being removed from the index "minutes" before it was announced publicly, Prestbo said.
In July 2008, Standard & Poors removed GM from its S&P 100 index of the nation's largest publicly traded companies -- but left GM in the S&P 500 -- as it had fallen to the 354th largest company in the index.
That's what greed does to ANY company foolish enough to believe they are "too big to fail".
Yeah, it's telling a story that is one of the biggest failures in corporate history.
Regards,
OW
Sadly they make money in most of the World. If they could dump the USA market and their horrid UAW wages & legacy costs, they could make money here.
This might be the most profound statement you have made. Very scary but also very true.
What you fail to realize is the nature of competition...successful products succeed, and that success is rewarded. Failures are likewise punished, both by the free market, by purchasing or not purchasing a particular product. GM has consistently shown that it is unable to compete in many areas. What you seem to be proposing is simply another thinly disguised bailout, forcing people to buy domestic automobiles even though they might not be the best choice for them, or the best product available. The thing is, that takes AWAY any incentive to innovate and make a better product...why should they bother, when the law guarantees them X amount of sales no matter how rotten the product is?
You're also forgetting that we do still have a domestic auto manufacturer...one who has actually shown itself to be able to compete at a high level and not need bailouts. So we're fine. And we will be fine, even without GM.
Chrysler is prepared to revive under Fiat, which will create new competition, whether they'll be successful or not is another story for another time.
Supporting American auto industry can be done in various ways. I can happily purchase a Mercedes GL or BMW x5 and claim myself supporting American workers. Hey' its built in America and it has quality to match.
I don;t support anything that doesn't meet my standard, no matter where it's made.
Sadly I prefer to buy a German import, sure she got some dismal personality but still kind deep down and darn pretty to look at :shades:
Or at least an Infiniti, which equals to a girl with great personality and decent looks.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but personality is pretty obvious. :shades:
Maybe the masses are starting to see what was good enough for granddad is not good enough for them. GM has the illusion that they are a great car company. I got news for them. Studebaker was a great innovative car company and coach company before that. Look where they are. In the history books. Just where GM belongs.
I'm a bit surprised that this is being announced before the bankruptcy filing but I guess any dealer looking to sue will have to sue the company after the filing or at least have their suit thrown into that where I expect them all to disappear.
Our local Jeep dealer got he Chrysler letter but the Chrysler - Dodge guy dodged the bullet. We have Chevy and Pontiac-GMC-Buick in town. Another set of dealers 20 miles up the road. We will see.
We'll have dancing Judge Itos back on SNL before all this shakes out.
I guess we'll see - but I expect by tonight a list will magically appear.
Maybe GM will file before the June 1st blowup date?
I wonder about the timing. Franchise laws are so strong, I don't see how GM can cut that many dealers without bankruptcy court oversight. It cost them a fortune to get rid of the Olds dealers.
Heard on the radio today that GM dealers have contracts with GM that is renewable. The dealer interviewed on the radio said GM's franchise contracts are on an annual basis. Basically GM is saying we are not renewing the franchise agreement with these 1100 dealers. they are using criteria like low customer satisfaction, low sales, etc. as justification. With Oldsmobile, they shut the entire brand at one time. In hindsight they should have handled it differently.
GM should have filed for bankruptcy 2-3 years ago and we wouldn't have this circus. It's going to be interesting to see GM's financials when they file bankruptcy. Chrysler's was very revealing and now I understand why a) they could not survive without a partnership (Bob Eaton and Daimler should be should be forced to watch a 24 hour marathon of "Desperately Seeking Susan" starring Madonna); and b) why they need a quick bankruptcy. The only positive thing is we are all learning quite a bit about bankruptcy laws, franchise laws, union negotiations, etc.
I don't think GM's bankruptcy will go as "smooth" as Chrysler's. GM has 8 times the debt load as Chrysler and they also have to deal with stock holders along with the bondholders. I think it will be ugly and would not be surprised if GM is forced into a Chap. 7.
I suspect that since they absolutely are filing Chapter 11 in the next week and a half that they figure the judge will clean up any mess with the dealerships. If there has been one constant in GM's handling of this mess it's that they put all the cleanup onto someone else's head.
Good point. And the impending bankruptcy will deter lots of those dealers from filing suit right away to argue about whether the criteria was fairly applied.
Bonus points for mentioning one of my favorite movies. :shades:
Well, looking at how GM is already prepared to axe 1100 dealers, I agree with you, GM will probably file ch-11 by summer.
They will file by June 1st. All the signs are there including moving up the pay date to their suppliers to May 28th.
This was not because they are in great financial health, it's because the Ford family did not want the Gov't. telling them what to do.
It's looks like Ford will pull through. But it's not because they were run great by the Ford family.
We're now past six months into this and GM and Chrysler continue to soak up public funds while Ford does not.
This is what GM should have done. Instead they waited, negotiated a labor contract they knew they could not pay and kept piling on the incentives to move cars. Sure they improved a couple of products but the overwhelming majority of their products were second shelf.
Here we sit 16 days (maybe shorter) from a GM bankruptcy.
I'd say that shows pretty good foresight on their part to make such a smart business move.
This was not because they are in great financial health, it's because the Ford family did not want the Gov't. telling them what to do.
Sounds like a good enough reason to me. Not that a company should need a reason to do something smart to ensure that they stay a viable entity.
It's looks like Ford will pull through. But it's not because they were run great by the Ford family.
Nope, it's because the Ford family A: Was smart enough to know what they didn't know, and brought in Mually instead, and B: Was greedy enough to not want their shares diluted by government bailouts.
****
Ford would also repay every dime. On time. GM has no plan for the foreseeable future - at least until 2015(!) to become solvent. Just a slow bleed that while it gets smaller, takes half a decade or more to finally turn itself around.
The real reason Ford is surviving is a simple realization that they would have to live with a smaller share of the market. So they scaled way back. They can grow if the market allows in the future, but they are still in business.
Given a choice between squeezing the government - read me and you - and schemes to keep the family shares safe I'll vote for that latter one. more power to them.
Much smarter than Wagoner.
Just another example of the room temperature IQ represented by GM management of the past.....
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I agree, that Ford made smarter moves than GM. Why did Wagoner buy the Renaissance Center knowing they were in financial difficulty? They will be lucky to get half the $625,000,000 they paid for that white elephant in 2007. It will probably be taken over by the homeless UAW workers by this time next year. It will just become one of the derelict wrecks of Detroit. Without GM can Detroit still exist as a city?
If the people of Michigan are smart, they will tell their legislators they want to become a right to work state. That would make them a better target for companies to come in and take over existing facilities that will be empty shortly.
Look to see "Life After People: Live from Detroit" if GM leaves.
You'll still see a bunch of brand-new Fords...or you would, if the episode weren't ironically sponsored by GM itself, in another stupid business move. :shades:
GM going offshore is the logical choice for a company that wants to survive. I just don't want them making the move on my tax dollars. It is their own ignorance that allowed labor to get out of hand.
What is the cost of a city lost to bankruptcy and then poverty? Detroit, Philly, and all the ex US auto towns. Why did GM hesitate to create more of these quicker?
Or was it apathy so widespread that we wouldn't help one of the largest providers of middle class jobs in our country. We would never again want to deal with a post warranty failure and would trade recession for America to gain a slim margin in the need to do such a repair as compared to that of a ever so slightly higher ranked car with a TCO showing less repair costs.
That is not very logical thinking. All it does is prolong all the payments you listed. Though it is the state that pays unemployment. The money from the stimulus was only enough to extend the current benefits for 26 weeks out to a year.
Or was it apathy so widespread that we wouldn't help one of the largest providers of middle class jobs in our country.
That is total bunk. Most of the jobs in the auto industry are far lower than the UAW workers are paid. They were the elite, while many working at dealerships are making less than half what a Union auto worker makes. There are ghost towns all over the USA. When the money is gone the city dies. Detroit happens to be a large one.
As far as the lower maintenance on many of the imports, it is a big deal to someone making less than $20 per hour. Plus taking off work because your POC GM car is always breaking. GM is getting their just dues. They have screwed the American car buyer for decades and it is coming back to bite them in the butt.
Except for Lemko.
Even as many experts have added huge complexities to this story, the products speak for themselves, incentives notwithstanding....except for Lemko.
I will continue to admit Lemko got the best of GM over the years, no doubt about it. :shades:
Now, its less than 2 weeks until the end of the line for incompetence, AFAIC. :lemon:
Regards,
OW
I realize this has become the chant about how awful all GM cars are, but it's just not right. I've had few problems with many GM cars through the years.
Perhaps the Honda folks want to talk about transmission problems, including the current VCM and Odyssey transmissions? I don't recall what's happening to Camry/350 other than the lag problem upon acceleration, but there are other things that are characteristic problems. Oddly the deterioration of the Accord/Camry duo since 03 has evoked a few people saying, "No more XXX car for me."
Noone seems to complain about the Union workers in Japan making those cars being paid good wages. And some of the Toyota/Honda vehicles are built here so at least the worker bees on the line get jobs that pay above minimum wage; people talk about the real paying jobs are held by Nationals.
Soon the haters of GM can be happy. They will have decimated many areas because of all the ancillary jobs that are part of the auto industry. Then they'll be complaining about their SS and Medicare checks being reduced. But they will have gotten back at GM which should satisfy them until they pick a new victim.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But it was only one problem. :sick:
OK, I agree as my 5 GM trucks had relatively few problems compared to my foreign vehicles. I was responding to the nonsense that loss of UAW jobs would be a big impact to all workers. When in reality the only people benefiting from the high paying UAW jobs are the UAW workers. It has only made the cost of everything higher for those not so fortunate.
While I may rant about the poor fit on my most recent GMC PU truck, my Sequoia is not without nagging problems. The lifts on the tailgate do not work when the temp goes below 35 degrees ABOVE ZERO. The CD player is the worst I have ever had in a vehicle, and 15 MPG is about the average. The dealer response. Bring it in when it is cold and show us. Well by the time I drive 25 miles to the dealership the vehicle is warm and the lifts work fine. The CD player supposedly plays their test CD. Well I have dozens of CDs that play fine in a $30 boom box that skip in that POC JBL top of the line Audio system in the Sequoia. So I am an equal opportunity complainer.
I will repeat my premise. If the UAW would have voluntarily cut wages across the board and dumped the retiree health care, GM could have survived without BK.
Alternator freezing would rip the belt and cause it to jump off. It would not freeze the motor until the lack of belt turning the water pump allowed the driver who ignored the lights and temp gauge to overheat the motor.
There has to be more to the story.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,