Escape still beats CRV... Thanks this posting, baggs32. That means more people buy Escape then Honda CRV every year despite what those magazines say about reliability of Escape... Varmint, does this tell you something about those ratings you read in CR and all other publications?
I don't even consider Element as small SUV. (shoe box looking moving device...)
"If Ford is this much terrible in terms of reliability, why do you think people still buy Ford products?"
1. Not every Ford is unreliable. 2. Ford offers a wide array of discounts. 3. Ford offers some top notch full-size trucks. 4. Ford sells to fleets BIG TIME! For example, about 60% of their Taurus fleet goes to rental companies. 5. Reliability is only one factor in the decision process. 6. Brand loyalty. 7. There's a Ford dealer on every corner.
"I wonder where do you make research about those liberal media?"
Several of the sources I noted are funded independently. They do not take money from the corporations they are ranking. They are either funded by their reader membership or by the foundation itself (they sell the data after the fact.) Consumer Reports, for example, is a non-profit organization which is funded by the individuals who buy subscriptions.
So your comments about results being "paid for by the award-winning manufacturers" shows that you are ignorant of the way they do business. All I'm asking is that you check the facts before making accusations.
Consumer Reports, for example, is a non-profit organization which is funded by the individuals who buy subscriptions.
And they survey those subscribers, and only those subscribers, to obtain their data. They don't publish their demographics but I have a hunch the majority of their readers own Hondas or Toyotas. If they don't, then why do they read the darn thing?
Over saturated samples tend to produce skewed results.
Just a theory, but it's still as proven as any of those surveys.
Ford sells to fleets BIG TIME! For example, about 60% of their Taurus fleet goes to rental companies.
One or two of which they wholly own. Do you think they should rent Malbu's there instead?
Besides, the Taurus is history. You won't be able to buy one after '05 (or maybe '06) unless you buy one from a rental fleet. The Five-Hundred, which is on lots as we type, and Fusion, out next year, are both taking it's place. Sort of how the Camry and Avalon fill Toyota's mid-size car needs, those two will do the same for Ford and Mercury.
"They don't publish their demographics but I have a hunch the majority of their readers own Hondas or Toyotas. If they don't, then why do they read the darn thing?"
I think the concept you're describing is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. People Buy CR. They read that car X is rated highly. They buy car X. Car X continues to receive high reviews.
That would apply if the survey was a popularity contest. It isn't.
Instead, the data is an assessment of many issues they have with the vehicle. Both cost and time are to be factored in. So, if car X is purchased by a large number of supporters, they have a lot of data for that vehicle. It does not ensure that the data is favorable. In fact, if car X has a problem, that problem will be magnified.
On the subject of fleet sales, that is one component that helps explain why Ford vehicles sell. People tend to think that sales volume equals popularity. But when you figure out that many of those sales are made to their own subsidiaries, the link between sales and popularity fades.
In short, if Ford didn't buy their own Taurus, the sales rate would be cut in half.
1. Not every Ford is unreliable. This means some part of the production is reliable some part is not. How do you know this? You have some sort of gauge to measure reliability? Is every Honda reliable? Hmmm! Let's think, Accord and Oddysey Transmission issues, CRV engine fires, I could generate more samples If I would visit those relevant forums...
2. Ford offers a wide array of discounts. Hey this is free country, you do whatever to increase your sale...
3. Ford offers some top notch full-size trucks. So another way of saying Ford is capable of doing things wright...
4. Ford sells to fleets BIG TIME! For example, about 60% of their Taurus fleet goes to rental companies.
What they do with those car? One year later public buy them. It is like a deferred sale. Ford uses the vehicle 1st year and then offers to public with great discount. It still counts as sale.
5. Reliability is only one factor in the decision process. I agree...
6. Brand loyalty. Bingooooo! Why? Because Ford makes reliable cars. That is why people have brand loyalty. You think American consumers are screwed up by Ford products and they still buy Ford because they are loyal? That is why I am buying Escape because my taurus has been problem free.
7. There's a Ford dealer on every corner. This is what I need...
"Several of the sources I noted are funded independently. They do not take money from the corporations they are ranking. They are either funded by their reader membership or by the foundation itself (they sell the data after the fact.)"
Oh sure! Everything runs like a swiss clock based on Law:-)))) Your approach to corporate America in terms of ethic is not realistic...
In short, if Ford didn't buy their own Taurus, the sales rate would be cut in half.
Read above. They still end up in consumer's driveways.
I, however, would never buy a used rental. My sister, father-in-law, and a friend all did even after I warned them. All three have had problems. Two of them were in fact of the Ford brand and were basically not maintained very well as stated by the mechanics. Both have new transmissions now.
It does not ensure that the data is favorable.
No it doesn't, but in the world of stats, it can help.
In fact, if car X has a problem, that problem will be magnified.
Not necessarily. They are relying on people to take the time to accurately fill out those surveys. Not everyone is as passionate about vehicles as we are and won't take the time to do so. I can guarantee that. Most people I know that read that rag most certainly will not take the time and probably don't even know what a real problem is in the first place let alone write it down.
Then we have to take into consideration what a problem is. It is well known that Ford has had a lot of recalls in the recent past and I have no doubt that every one of them has been included in those surveys. I know you've posted the survey instructions before and IIRC they don't clearly define a "problem".
For example, two things that plagued the older Escapes were it's soft brake pads and shoes, and it's OEM tires. Both wore fast and aren't cheap to replace. What's to say that people didn't mark those down in the surveys? They're certainly not problems if you ask me. Just normal wear and tear and have nothing to do with reliability. Long-term quality maybe, but not reliability.
Obviously I'm theorizing again, and in favor of Ford of course, but those "awards" and rankings have always rubbed me the wrong way. The data collection processes for all of them are too willy nilly if you ask me.
My job is building data collection apps for medical research and the difference between how we collect data and how they do is quite astonishing. Even with all of our careful planning, results are still not 100% accurate. In the end one fact remains, we too are just writing guides to be used for further research and that's all CR and the like are doing too.
You asked for it. You wanted one place showing the Escape being reliable. Once again you don't believe it and you go on and on about how reliable the CRV is. Even though the CRV has just about as many recalls as the Escape and now this engine fire issue..
"The most if you count CRV and Element"?? The Escape/Tribute are the leaders in the small SUV segement. Where do you get your data?? Now with the upcoming Mercury Mariner, Ford will pull even further away in sales.
Now you call it "over-generalizing" when someone else comes into play making a point that their vehicles were reliable and dependable. This is a Honda fanatic if I ever heard of one. Varmit, there are other reliable cars out on the road other than Honda. Get out on the internet more, visit other chat rooms. With the internet news spread fast and between consumers. Honda's reliablity is much in part due to their lack of allowing the public to see TSB information. I hate to say it fella, Honda is slipping with consumers. I read it all over the net. They can no longer hide issues.
Flip flop.. come on Baggs proved you WRONG.. You claimed that Honda does have good market share "The most if you count CRV and Element". I don't see your point? You clamed "THE MOST if you count CRV and Element" I am using your words her varmit. You were wrong, wrong, wrong. You simply claimed the CRV and Element outsold the Escape/Tribute and now Mariner. You were plain wrong. Quit trying to be a politician and wiggle out of your statement.
Honda owners tell me that they bought Honda just because of personal taste, I would respect that. @## off.
It doesn't bother me that people buy Honda that is their money. However, many Honda owners try to bash any other make model to comfort themselves for their overpaid vehicles, or try to create artificial superiority over other makes and models.
Varmint, stop comparing that thin can CRV with tightly built V6 Escape. Even I4 Escape is better vehicle than CRV.
"Read above. They still end up in consumer's driveways."
So Ford makes good "used cars", but not very good new cars. Is that the lesson I should take from this?
"They are relying on people to take the time to accurately fill out those surveys. Not everyone is as passionate about vehicles as we are and won't take the time to do so."
How would that, or any of the other potential issues you've described, favor Honda more than Ford? Seriously, if the collection of data is bad, then it's bad for both companies. If the surveys are bad for reasons related to methodology, then they would be statistically unreliable (results would vary widely from survey to survey). Yet, they don't. In fact, CR data has been matched against warranty data and comes up very consistent.
How would that, or any of the other potential issues you've described, favor Honda more than Ford?
Because I carried on our discussion that started from my original theory that the majority of CR subscribers, hence survey recipients, buy/own the vehicles they read about thus giving those vehicles more weight.
If all was even, which it should be or at least close to, then it would effect both in the same way.
Seriously, if the collection of data is bad, then it's bad for both companies.
That I will agree with you on. It's also bad for the reader too. I'll see if there's a poll, or try to start one, on the "big" Escape board to see how many Escape owners read CR. There have been CR bashing threads on there before so I'm not expecting to find many actual subscribers who own an Escape or any Ford for that matter.
The same thing happens around these boards too. Just in general observations I've noticed that most Ford, Mazda, GM, and DCX owners don't care for CR or the others. But pretty much all Honda and Toyota owners do.
Prove me wrong with some published info. I can take it.
If the surveys are bad for reasons related to methodology, then they would be statistically unreliable (results would vary widely from survey to survey).
Who are the others surveying? Did CR sell them their mailing list? Did they pick randomly from the phone book like that guy in the movie The Jerk?
This is what we are doing here...Comparing two make/models certainly involves comparing the manufacturers of those models. But this doesn't mean that one side comes up with constant questioning/bashing of other make/model in terms of reliability. When this occurs I am in a position to answer...at least on behalf of myself...
Nothing is stopping shoppers. Comparison is still going on. They can skip the messages they don't like to see/hear...
Ps: It is nonsense to compare V6 Escape with I4 CRV. Only thing to compare could be I4 Escape vs I4 CRV.
How about some data to back up the "overpaid" statement. And the fact that someone's Aunt Millie paid MSRP for a Honda isn't enough.
A Honda vehicle is a commodity. People buy them every day. Some people pay more than the next person, others pay less. How is this any different than what the purchaser of a Ford does? And more importantly how does someone arrive at the conclusion that "many Honda owners try to bash any other make model to comfort themselves for their overpaid vehicles"?
Can I state that many Ford owners try to bash any other make model to comfort themselves for their overpaid vehicles? I guess I just did.
LOL, I spoke based on my own observation on forums of Edmunds.com. Particularly Honda owners...not Toyota, not MB, Honda owners. They love to bash almost every make model but Toyota.
You can state whatever you like:-) but one thing that Ford customers are not overpaying. I am finalizing my purchase on Saturday: Redfire XLT V6 AWD Standart items plus P235/70Rx16 All-Season OWL Tires - 16" Aluminum Wheels - Power Moonroof w/Shade & Mini Overhead Console (Incl. Single Storage Bin and Map Lights) - Roof Rack w/Horizontal Bars - Side Step Bars - Sunroof, Side Airbags, for $22.5K + TTL Can you tell I am overpaying it? :-)
Normally I just scroll past drivel like this, but this time I thought I'd respond. Based on my past experiences and also those of close friends and relatives, Hondas beat Fords hands down in terms of reliability and resale value. Neither brand is perfect, but I've seen many more problematic Fords than Hondas. I don't form judgements solely on some silly media review or survey, mostly on my experiences. The smart people on this forum also do the same thing. Some have had good expereinces with Fords, I'm happy for them. But I know many more happy owners of Hondas than Fords.
<< stop comparing that thin can CRV with tightly built V6 Escape. Even I4 Escape is better vehicle than CRV. >>
Oh that's a good one, no response is needed to this.
The smart people on this forum also do the same thing. Some have had good experiences with Fords, I'm happy for them. But I know many more happy owners of Hondas than Fords.
"Smart" is taking a test drive and buying what you really like. "Smart" is not reading a magazine or web site and buying what others tell you to buy.
Reliability, fuel mileage, and media opinions are low on my list when shopping for a vehicle. I like cars and I'm going to get what I want. End of story.
Your "smart" comment also reinforces what snowman is trying to say. In my observations Honda and Toyota owners do tend to talk down to owners of other brands they consider inferior. They generally think they made a "smart" decision because of all the hard work they put into researching their vehicle of choice.
That's fine. I research the heck out of most everything I buy too. Drives my wife crazy! But not a vehicle. To generate a shopping list I'll read the reviews and test drives, and I may even look at the CR rankings too. But in the end it all comes down to what my back end tells me (insert jokes here) during test drives. Shopping for a new vehicle is supposed to be fun not hard work.
As for the last part of your statement, I'm just the opposite. Of all my friends and family I know one Honda owner and it happens to be an '01 CR-V SE. I've driven it and it's OK, but like the current gen V it's really not for me.
At one point last year there were 4 Honda owners including me. Our Civic is gone, an Accord is gone, and an Odyssey is gone. Two Mazda6 S's and a Sienna are in their place now. These four were the only Japanese cars on the street during family gatherings.
Know why? Because all the others have been buying Domestic vehicles for years and all have had mostly positive experiences with them. Sure, sometimes some of them require a little more love than others but that's what you do when you really care about your vehicle. Then you go buy another one when the time comes.
<< "Smart" is taking a test drive and buying what you really like. "Smart" is not reading a magazine or web site and buying what others tell you to buy. >>
Thank you for reinforcing what I just said.
<< Reliability, fuel mileage, and media opinions are low on my list when shopping for a vehicle. I like cars and I'm going to get what I want >>
Agree about media opinions. I use them to "hopefully" reinforce what I determined, usually they do. Reliability and fuel mileage may not be high on your list, but I'd bet it is to the other 99.9% of the population. End of story on this one too.
<< Sure, sometimes some of them require a little more love than others but that's what you do when you really care about your vehicle. Then you go buy another one when the time comes. >>
My morning coffee almost came out my nose when I read that. Do you really feel that way about a vehicle that needs a little bit more "love" than others? In other words, it needs more repairs than others. And you would honestly go buy another one???
I wouldn't expect to hear different than this, you are an CRV owner... Have you driven Escape, specially 2005 models? If not, take a test drive and look at fit and finish, compare it with CRV. Majority of CRV owners have biased approach to Escape.
At the end, it is your money and you decide what to buy. CRV has only one advantage over Escape (actually not a real advantage) is that CRV has better resale value but you pay more upfront. And I don't think this will last longer since that engine fire issue came. CRV was on my shopping list. Several things affected my final move, I4 engine and engine fire thing, positive experience with Ford, Honda's policy to hide TSBs to protect the resale value (I am a DIY up to certain level), Honda specific transaxle fluids.
Escape has more advantages over CRV: 1. Escape is an SUV, you can operate it on hars terrain, asphalt road anywhere within the limit. How capable CRV is for off road conditions?
2. Escape can tow things upto 3000 lb. What is the towing capacity of CRV?
3. Escape is giving more bang for your money. For the price of I4 CRV, you can get V6 200 Hp Escape.
4. Fit and finish are not different than any Honda. Visit any Ford dealer and take a look at, you'll see...
Love is not repair... Love is providing maintenance regularly, it is true that Ford vehicles are sensitive for lack of maintenance like any other German car. If you skip it, it's gonna come back and bite your pocket.
How about posting in such a way that you park the sarcasm at the front door.
Shopping for a new vehicle is supposed to be fun not hard work .
Baggs, lots of people find Edmunds trying to make the process a bit more fun. Believe it or not, taking a bunch of test drives isn't fun for a lot of us. Knowing a model is mostly reliable and fuel efficient means a lot to some of us.
Guess who I'm referring to, lol. I found Edmunds trying to weed out the clunker gas burners without having to trust the seat of my pants. If the process was fun, maybe I'd trade more often than every 5 or 10 years.
<< I wouldn't expect to hear different than this, you are an CRV owner... >>
And that makes me a Honda bigot just because I own one? Go back and read the tone of my previous posts. I am NOT a Honda bigot. You will find I actually prefer the styling of the Escape/Tribute over the CRV. And I do take an impartial approach when deciding my next purchase.
<< Have you driven Escape, specially 2005 models? If not, take a test drive and look at fit and finish, compare it with CRV. >>
Why waste my time? I'm not in the market.
<< Majority of CRV owners have biased approach to Escape. >>
And where did that come from? Is that your own opinion or something from one of those silly media reviews. I fail to believe anyone with a biased approach towards an Escape would by a CRV. Oh, and just because I prefer the styling of the Escape, that doesn't make me biased. I look at the entire package AND the dealer reps in my area.
And in regards to your Escape advantages: 1) Off roading is not for me and neither is the CRV meant for off roading. 2) I don't tow anything. 3) That has been posted and disputed many times by those that prefer the Escape and also by CRV folks from the other side. 4) I couldn't decipher what you meant by that.
Believe it or not, taking a bunch of test drives isn't fun for a lot of us. Knowing a model is mostly reliable and fuel efficient means a lot to some of us.
And that, my friend, is the difference between an enthusiast and an everyday consumer.
I was put to sleep every single day by a former car. I'm not letting it happen again.
Knowing a model is mostly reliable and fuel efficient means a lot to some of us.
"Some" is the key word. Since SUV, a.k.a. the most fuel inefficient beasts out there, sales now surpass car sales it seems to me the majority doesn't care.
Actually they must not care about reliability either. Most SUVs sold today are from the big 2.5 which are supposed to be absolutely horrific when it comes to that measure right?
Yep, yesterday I spent 8 hours in a new Beetle, and today I'm cruising around in a 92 Protege. The car doesn't matter much to me, so long as I get to take a road trip in something now and then :-)
'05 Escape XLS optioned to match the CR-V EX. MSRP=$24010.
'05 CR-V EX. No options. MSRP=$23865.
The CR-V has a moonroof which is not offered on the Escape XLS. The CR-V has numerous other items that are not offered on the Escape XLS. All for less money.
I understand. The CR-V costs less than a comparably equipped Escape.
4WD EX 160-hp, 2.4-liter, 16-valve i-VTEC® engine • 4-speed Auto transmission • 4-wheel disc brakes with ABS • Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA®) • Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD) • Dual-Stage, Dual-Threshold front airbags • Front side airbags with Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS) • Side curtain airbags with rollover sensor • AC • Power windows, mirrors and door locks • Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System • 60/40 split rear sliding fold & tumble seats • Remote entry system • AM/FM/XM®-ready/6-disc in-dash CD changer/cassette audio system with 6 speakers • Power moonroof with tilt feature • 16" alloy wheels, including spare • Steering wheel-mounted audio controls • Exterior temperature indicator • Rear privacy glass • Body-colored dual power mirror $23350 + $515 = $23865 No Edmunds TMV
2005 Escape XLS 4WD - Duratec 23 - 2.3L I4 Engine 4-Speed Automatic Overdrive Transmission Front disc / rear drum brakes 4-wheel ABS Front Driver and Passenger Dual Stage Air Bags Safety Package (side curtain airbags- $595 on top of MSRP) AC Power windows, mirrors and door locks Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System SecuriLock®/Passive Anti-Theft System 60/40 split rear sliding fold Remote Keyless Entry w/2 Key Fobs AM/FM Single CD w/Clock, 4-Speakers 15" Alloy Wheels ($325 on top of MSRP)
"The CR-V has a moonroof which is not offered on the Escape XLS. The CR-V has numerous other items that are not offered on the Escape XLS. All for less money."
My XLT has moonroof and 16" alloys and side airbag,+ V6 200 Hp engine, paid $22.5K + TLL.
Lets see how you can mact this...Just forget about my V6, assume that I got I4 for that price...
"The CR-V has a moonroof which is not offered on the Escape XLS. The CR-V has numerous other items that are not offered on the Escape XLS. All for less money."
"The Escape XLT has a V6 200 Hp engine which is not offered on the top of the line CRV. The XLT has numerous other items that are also offered on the CRV. But XLT can be bought for less money."
It is intersting, when you guys compare the technical details, Escape V6 is used (mainly Varmint did this I4-V6 comparison) but if the issue is pricing then apple to apple, huh!
"It is intersting, when you guys compare the technical details, Escape V6 is used (mainly Varmint did this I4-V6 comparison) but if the issue is pricing then apple to apple, huh!"
That's just the way it has been done in this forum since the beginning. Escape fans in this forum have always agreed that the I4 version of the Escape was a joke. So, we never bothered to discuss it.
When the I4 CR-V accelerates at about the same rate, gets better mileage, and runs smoother, there was not a lot of reason to use anything but the V6 Escape for comparison purposes. Towing was really the only big advantage for the V6.
Now that Ford has added the 2.3L engine (a nice engine for small cars), we can certainly go that route.
". Escape is an SUV, you can operate it on hars terrain, asphalt road anywhere within the limit. How capable CRV is for off road conditions?"
However capable the 2004 Escape was, the 2005 lacks the capability of manually locking in the rear wheel drive, which makes it worse for off road. I think Ford made a mistake there, or else are positioning the 2005 model in the same segment as the CR-V, that is, light off road. In both vehicles, starting in 2005, the transmission automatically engages when the front wheel slip. The CR-V RT4WD is updated this year to be faster. The Escape is downgraded to be less capable.
The off road capability and the towing (neither of which I do) were the real advantages of the Escape. Now it it reduced to just the towing, IMHO.
Even using the numbers a Ford owner posts, the CR-V costs less.
And look at all the things the CR-V has that the Escape doesn't. 4 wheel disc brakes, Moonroof, 16" wheels, 6 disc in dash CD changer w/ 6 speakers, etc.
Are we supposed to take into account people's negotiating skills when we look at prices?
MSRP is the ONLY way to compare accurately.
I said this was an apples to apples comparison. The CR-V has a 4 cylinder engine. If someone is so intent on a V6 Escape maybe they should move to the Hyundai Santa Fe or the Saturn VUE comparisons, since those can be had with a V6.
Escape has 4 wheel disc brake, it is standard for AWD system.
Escape has more things that CRV doesn't have. I wanted to give you "apple to apple comparison" and kept the list short. Didn't add things that I didn't see on Honda side.
Visit Ford's site and see what other htings Escape has CRV doesn't. Monroof is not an option on Escape XLS.
MSRP has no meaning, price occurs where supply meets demand which is close to TMV.
However capable the 2004 Escape was, the 2005 lacks the capability of manually locking in the rear wheel drive, which makes it worse for off road.
Not exactly but we all thought that way at first too.
It is true that the '05's system lacks the locking feature. However, having owned both I have to say that the new system is a big improvement over the old.
The new system is electronic whereas the old was mechanical which allows the former to "predict" wheel slippage and send power to the rear before any slippage even occurs. It does work very, very well I might add. I can't get the front wheels to spin and I've tried to do it in mud, rain, sand, and gravel. Snow is the only thing I haven't been in yet but it is coming this way soon.
Since it was mechanical, the old system had to wait for the front wheels to slip before doing anything about it. Therefore the front wheels did slip from time to time and could spin for quite a while in the "Auto" mode. The "On" mode didn't actually lock the axles together as most people think. All the 'On' mode did was start the fluid churning a little early thus sending a small amount of power to the rear wheels at all times. Use it on dry pavement and you can kiss your drivetrain goodbye.
In contrast, the new system does not "crab and bind" at all and since it can predict slippage it is still faster than the old 'On' mode which had to react to a slip after it happened.
MT just did a comparo on some small SUVs. The Escape took take top honors in the off-roading portion of the test beating the Equinox, Santa Fe, and VUE Redline pretty handily according to them. Unfortunately the CR-V was left out because it lacks a V6.
The CR-V has a 4 cylinder engine. The Escape trim line that most approximates the CR-V is the XLS. When options are added to the XLS to bring it in line with the CR-V EX's standard equipment, the Escape is priced higher and still is missing several things the CR-V has.
According to Ford the XLS has rear drums whether in 2WD or 4WD. If this is an error, contact Ford.
According to Ford a moonroof is not an option on the XLS. If this is an error, contact Ford.
The 4 cylinder XLT trim more closely approximates the CR-V SE. Even then options need to be added to the Escape and the CR-V still is priced lower than the Escape.
MSRP IS the way to compare prices between vehicles.
The CR-V is priced lower than a comparably equipped Escape.
Comments
If Ford is this much terrible in terms of reliability, why do you think people still buy Ford products?
Oh! I wonder where do you make research about those liberal media? Possibly in liberal media...? Huh!
Thanks this posting, baggs32.
That means more people buy Escape then Honda CRV every year despite what those magazines say about reliability of Escape...
Varmint, does this tell you something about those ratings you read in CR and all other publications?
I don't even consider Element as small SUV. (shoe box looking moving device...)
1. Not every Ford is unreliable.
2. Ford offers a wide array of discounts.
3. Ford offers some top notch full-size trucks.
4. Ford sells to fleets BIG TIME! For example, about 60% of their Taurus fleet goes to rental companies.
5. Reliability is only one factor in the decision process.
6. Brand loyalty.
7. There's a Ford dealer on every corner.
"I wonder where do you make research about those liberal media?"
Several of the sources I noted are funded independently. They do not take money from the corporations they are ranking. They are either funded by their reader membership or by the foundation itself (they sell the data after the fact.) Consumer Reports, for example, is a non-profit organization which is funded by the individuals who buy subscriptions.
So your comments about results being "paid for by the award-winning manufacturers" shows that you are ignorant of the way they do business. All I'm asking is that you check the facts before making accusations.
And they survey those subscribers, and only those subscribers, to obtain their data. They don't publish their demographics but I have a hunch the majority of their readers own Hondas or Toyotas. If they don't, then why do they read the darn thing?
Over saturated samples tend to produce skewed results.
Just a theory, but it's still as proven as any of those surveys.
Ford sells to fleets BIG TIME! For example, about 60% of their Taurus fleet goes to rental companies.
One or two of which they wholly own. Do you think they should rent Malbu's there instead?
Besides, the Taurus is history. You won't be able to buy one after '05 (or maybe '06) unless you buy one from a rental fleet. The Five-Hundred, which is on lots as we type, and Fusion, out next year, are both taking it's place. Sort of how the Camry and Avalon fill Toyota's mid-size car needs, those two will do the same for Ford and Mercury.
I think the concept you're describing is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. People Buy CR. They read that car X is rated highly. They buy car X. Car X continues to receive high reviews.
That would apply if the survey was a popularity contest. It isn't.
Instead, the data is an assessment of many issues they have with the vehicle. Both cost and time are to be factored in. So, if car X is purchased by a large number of supporters, they have a lot of data for that vehicle. It does not ensure that the data is favorable. In fact, if car X has a problem, that problem will be magnified.
On the subject of fleet sales, that is one component that helps explain why Ford vehicles sell. People tend to think that sales volume equals popularity. But when you figure out that many of those sales are made to their own subsidiaries, the link between sales and popularity fades.
In short, if Ford didn't buy their own Taurus, the sales rate would be cut in half.
This means some part of the production is reliable some part is not. How do you know this? You have some sort of gauge to measure reliability? Is every Honda reliable? Hmmm! Let's think, Accord and Oddysey Transmission issues, CRV engine fires, I could generate more samples If I would visit those relevant forums...
2. Ford offers a wide array of discounts.
Hey this is free country, you do whatever to increase your sale...
3. Ford offers some top notch full-size trucks.
So another way of saying Ford is capable of doing things wright...
4. Ford sells to fleets BIG TIME! For example, about 60% of their Taurus fleet goes to rental companies.
What they do with those car? One year later public buy them. It is like a deferred sale. Ford uses the vehicle 1st year and then offers to public with great discount. It still counts as sale.
5. Reliability is only one factor in the decision process.
I agree...
6. Brand loyalty.
Bingooooo! Why? Because Ford makes reliable cars. That is why people have brand loyalty. You think American consumers are screwed up by Ford products and they still buy Ford because they are loyal? That is why I am buying Escape because my taurus has been problem free.
7. There's a Ford dealer on every corner.
This is what I need...
"Several of the sources I noted are funded independently. They do not take money from the corporations they are ranking. They are either funded by their reader membership or by the foundation itself (they sell the data after the fact.)"
Oh sure! Everything runs like a swiss clock based on Law:-))))
Your approach to corporate America in terms of ethic is not realistic...
Read above. They still end up in consumer's driveways.
I, however, would never buy a used rental. My sister, father-in-law, and a friend all did even after I warned them. All three have had problems. Two of them were in fact of the Ford brand and were basically not maintained very well as stated by the mechanics. Both have new transmissions now.
It does not ensure that the data is favorable.
No it doesn't, but in the world of stats, it can help.
In fact, if car X has a problem, that problem will be magnified.
Not necessarily. They are relying on people to take the time to accurately fill out those surveys. Not everyone is as passionate about vehicles as we are and won't take the time to do so. I can guarantee that. Most people I know that read that rag most certainly will not take the time and probably don't even know what a real problem is in the first place let alone write it down.
Then we have to take into consideration what a problem is. It is well known that Ford has had a lot of recalls in the recent past and I have no doubt that every one of them has been included in those surveys. I know you've posted the survey instructions before and IIRC they don't clearly define a "problem".
For example, two things that plagued the older Escapes were it's soft brake pads and shoes, and it's OEM tires. Both wore fast and aren't cheap to replace. What's to say that people didn't mark those down in the surveys? They're certainly not problems if you ask me. Just normal wear and tear and have nothing to do with reliability. Long-term quality maybe, but not reliability.
Obviously I'm theorizing again, and in favor of Ford of course, but those "awards" and rankings have always rubbed me the wrong way. The data collection processes for all of them are too willy nilly if you ask me.
My job is building data collection apps for medical research and the difference between how we collect data and how they do is quite astonishing. Even with all of our careful planning, results are still not 100% accurate.
In the end one fact remains, we too are just writing guides to be used for further research and that's all CR and the like are doing too.
You claimed that Honda does have good market share "The most if you count CRV and Element". I don't see your point? You clamed "THE MOST if you count CRV and Element" I am using your words her varmit. You were wrong, wrong, wrong. You simply claimed the CRV and Element outsold the Escape/Tribute and now Mariner. You were plain wrong. Quit trying to be a politician and wiggle out of your statement.
@## off.
It doesn't bother me that people buy Honda that is their money. However, many Honda owners try to bash any other make model to comfort themselves for their overpaid vehicles, or try to create artificial superiority over other makes and models.
Varmint, stop comparing that thin can CRV with tightly built V6 Escape. Even I4 Escape is better vehicle than CRV.
So Ford makes good "used cars", but not very good new cars. Is that the lesson I should take from this?
"They are relying on people to take the time to accurately fill out those surveys. Not everyone is as passionate about vehicles as we are and won't take the time to do so."
How would that, or any of the other potential issues you've described, favor Honda more than Ford? Seriously, if the collection of data is bad, then it's bad for both companies. If the surveys are bad for reasons related to methodology, then they would be statistically unreliable (results would vary widely from survey to survey). Yet, they don't. In fact, CR data has been matched against warranty data and comes up very consistent.
I responded to the small SUV marketshare issue with a post about sales by BRAND. That is the industry standard.
Honda is a brand. They sells CR-Vs and Elements.
Ford is a brand. They sell Escapes.
Mazda is a brand apart from Ford.
Mercury is yet another brand apart from Ford.
Baggs did not prove anything wrong. He merely misunderstood the context of my post. He gets it now. You should try that yourself.
Read it again.
Because I carried on our discussion that started from my original theory that the majority of CR subscribers, hence survey recipients, buy/own the vehicles they read about thus giving those vehicles more weight.
If all was even, which it should be or at least close to, then it would effect both in the same way.
Seriously, if the collection of data is bad, then it's bad for both companies.
That I will agree with you on. It's also bad for the reader too. I'll see if there's a poll, or try to start one, on the "big" Escape board to see how many Escape owners read CR. There have been CR bashing threads on there before so I'm not expecting to find many actual subscribers who own an Escape or any Ford for that matter.
The same thing happens around these boards too. Just in general observations I've noticed that most Ford, Mazda, GM, and DCX owners don't care for CR or the others. But pretty much all Honda and Toyota owners do.
Prove me wrong with some published info. I can take it.
If the surveys are bad for reasons related to methodology, then they would be statistically unreliable (results would vary widely from survey to survey).
Who are the others surveying? Did CR sell them their mailing list? Did they pick randomly from the phone book like that guy in the movie The Jerk?
Nothing is stopping shoppers. Comparison is still going on. They can skip the messages they don't like to see/hear...
Ps: It is nonsense to compare V6 Escape with I4 CRV. Only thing to compare could be I4 Escape vs I4 CRV.
First I don't have a case, second, you haven't posted anything in favor of Ford Escape. You still compare a watermelon with a tangerine.
A Honda vehicle is a commodity. People buy them every day. Some people pay more than the next person, others pay less. How is this any different than what the purchaser of a Ford does? And more importantly how does someone arrive at the conclusion that "many Honda owners try to bash any other make model to comfort themselves for their overpaid vehicles"?
Can I state that many Ford owners try to bash any other make model to comfort themselves for their overpaid vehicles? I guess I just did.
You can state whatever you like:-) but one thing that Ford customers are not overpaying.
I am finalizing my purchase on Saturday: Redfire XLT V6 AWD Standart items plus P235/70Rx16 All-Season OWL Tires
- 16" Aluminum Wheels
- Power Moonroof w/Shade & Mini Overhead Console (Incl. Single Storage Bin and Map Lights)
- Roof Rack w/Horizontal Bars
- Side Step Bars
- Sunroof, Side Airbags, for $22.5K + TTL
Can you tell I am overpaying it? :-)
<< stop comparing that thin can CRV with tightly built V6 Escape. Even I4 Escape is better vehicle than CRV. >>
Oh that's a good one, no response is needed to this.
"Smart" is taking a test drive and buying what you really like. "Smart" is not reading a magazine or web site and buying what others tell you to buy.
Reliability, fuel mileage, and media opinions are low on my list when shopping for a vehicle. I like cars and I'm going to get what I want. End of story.
Your "smart" comment also reinforces what snowman is trying to say. In my observations Honda and Toyota owners do tend to talk down to owners of other brands they consider inferior. They generally think they made a "smart" decision because of all the hard work they put into researching their vehicle of choice.
That's fine. I research the heck out of most everything I buy too. Drives my wife crazy! But not a vehicle. To generate a shopping list I'll read the reviews and test drives, and I may even look at the CR rankings too. But in the end it all comes down to what my back end tells me (insert jokes here) during test drives. Shopping for a new vehicle is supposed to be fun not hard work.
As for the last part of your statement, I'm just the opposite. Of all my friends and family I know one Honda owner and it happens to be an '01 CR-V SE. I've driven it and it's OK, but like the current gen V it's really not for me.
At one point last year there were 4 Honda owners including me. Our Civic is gone, an Accord is gone, and an Odyssey is gone. Two Mazda6 S's and a Sienna are in their place now. These four were the only Japanese cars on the street during family gatherings.
Know why? Because all the others have been buying Domestic vehicles for years and all have had mostly positive experiences with them. Sure, sometimes some of them require a little more love than others but that's what you do when you really care about your vehicle. Then you go buy another one when the time comes.
Thank you for reinforcing what I just said.
<< Reliability, fuel mileage, and media opinions are low on my list when shopping for a vehicle. I like cars and I'm going to get what I want >>
Agree about media opinions. I use them to "hopefully" reinforce what I determined, usually they do. Reliability and fuel mileage may not be high on your list, but I'd bet it is to the other 99.9% of the population. End of story on this one too.
<< Sure, sometimes some of them require a little more love than others but that's what you do when you really care about your vehicle. Then you go buy another one when the time comes. >>
My morning coffee almost came out my nose when I read that. Do you really feel that way about a vehicle that needs a little bit more "love" than others? In other words, it needs more repairs than others. And you would honestly go buy another one???
WOW!!
Have you driven Escape, specially 2005 models? If not, take a test drive and look at fit and finish, compare it with CRV. Majority of CRV owners have biased approach to Escape.
At the end, it is your money and you decide what to buy. CRV has only one advantage over Escape (actually not a real advantage) is that CRV has better resale value but you pay more upfront. And I don't think this will last longer since that engine fire issue came. CRV was on my shopping list. Several things affected my final move, I4 engine and engine fire thing, positive experience with Ford, Honda's policy to hide TSBs to protect the resale value (I am a DIY up to certain level), Honda specific transaxle fluids.
Escape has more advantages over CRV:
1. Escape is an SUV, you can operate it on hars terrain, asphalt road anywhere within the limit. How capable CRV is for off road conditions?
2. Escape can tow things upto 3000 lb. What is the towing capacity of CRV?
3. Escape is giving more bang for your money. For the price of I4 CRV, you can get V6 200 Hp Escape.
4. Fit and finish are not different than any Honda. Visit any Ford dealer and take a look at, you'll see...
Love is providing maintenance regularly, it is true that Ford vehicles are sensitive for lack of maintenance like any other German car. If you skip it, it's gonna come back and bite your pocket.
I have shown via links numerous times how a CR-V will cost less than a similarly equipped Escape.
So which vehicle is overpriced? The Escape of course.
Shopping for a new vehicle is supposed to be fun not hard work .
Baggs, lots of people find Edmunds trying to make the process a bit more fun. Believe it or not, taking a bunch of test drives isn't fun for a lot of us. Knowing a model is mostly reliable and fuel efficient means a lot to some of us.
Guess who I'm referring to, lol. I found Edmunds trying to weed out the clunker gas burners without having to trust the seat of my pants. If the process was fun, maybe I'd trade more often than every 5 or 10 years.
Steve, Host
And that makes me a Honda bigot just because I own one? Go back and read the tone of my previous posts. I am NOT a Honda bigot. You will find I actually prefer the styling of the Escape/Tribute over the CRV. And I do take an impartial approach when deciding my next purchase.
<< Have you driven Escape, specially 2005 models? If not, take a test drive and look at fit and finish, compare it with CRV. >>
Why waste my time? I'm not in the market.
<< Majority of CRV owners have biased approach to Escape. >>
And where did that come from? Is that your own opinion or something from one of those silly media reviews. I fail to believe anyone with a biased approach towards an Escape would by a CRV. Oh, and just because I prefer the styling of the Escape, that doesn't make me biased. I look at the entire package AND the dealer reps in my area.
And in regards to your Escape advantages:
1) Off roading is not for me and neither is the CRV meant for off roading.
2) I don't tow anything.
3) That has been posted and disputed many times by those that prefer the Escape and also by CRV folks from the other side.
4) I couldn't decipher what you meant by that.
And that, my friend, is the difference between an enthusiast and an everyday consumer.
I was put to sleep every single day by a former car. I'm not letting it happen again.
Knowing a model is mostly reliable and fuel efficient means a lot to some of us.
"Some" is the key word. Since SUV, a.k.a. the most fuel inefficient beasts out there, sales now surpass car sales it seems to me the majority doesn't care.
Actually they must not care about reliability either. Most SUVs sold today are from the big 2.5 which are supposed to be absolutely horrific when it comes to that measure right?
Steve, Host
'05 Escape XLS optioned to match the CR-V EX. MSRP=$24010.
'05 CR-V EX. No options. MSRP=$23865.
The CR-V has a moonroof which is not offered on the Escape XLS. The CR-V has numerous other items that are not offered on the Escape XLS. All for less money.
I understand. The CR-V costs less than a comparably equipped Escape.
160-hp, 2.4-liter, 16-valve i-VTEC® engine
• 4-speed Auto transmission
• 4-wheel disc brakes with ABS
• Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA®)
• Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD)
• Dual-Stage, Dual-Threshold front airbags
• Front side airbags with Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS)
• Side curtain airbags with rollover sensor
• AC
• Power windows, mirrors and door locks
• Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System
• 60/40 split rear sliding fold & tumble seats
• Remote entry system
• AM/FM/XM®-ready/6-disc in-dash CD changer/cassette audio system with 6 speakers
• Power moonroof with tilt feature
• 16" alloy wheels, including spare
• Steering wheel-mounted audio controls
• Exterior temperature indicator
• Rear privacy glass
• Body-colored dual power mirror
$23350 + $515 = $23865
No Edmunds TMV
2005 Escape
XLS 4WD -
Duratec 23 - 2.3L I4 Engine
4-Speed Automatic Overdrive Transmission
Front disc / rear drum brakes 4-wheel ABS
Front Driver and Passenger Dual Stage Air Bags
Safety Package (side curtain airbags- $595 on top of MSRP)
AC
Power windows, mirrors and door locks
Immobilizer Theft-Deterrent System SecuriLock®/Passive Anti-Theft System
60/40 split rear sliding fold
Remote Keyless Entry w/2 Key Fobs
AM/FM Single CD w/Clock, 4-Speakers
15" Alloy Wheels ($325 on top of MSRP)
$23015 (includes freight) + $325 + $595 = $23935 + TTL
There is no TMV for 2005 CRV. It is really hard to see. I'll assume Honda will not budge from MSRP for 2005.
Ford numbers are not reflecting the TMV either. I got my V6 XLT (Side airbag and Sunroof) $22.5 + TTL
I am 100% positive that XLS can be bought Invoice + $200 - rebates that puts you around $19K
My XLT has moonroof and 16" alloys and side airbag,+ V6 200 Hp engine, paid $22.5K + TLL.
Lets see how you can mact this...Just forget about my V6, assume that I got I4 for that price...
"The CR-V has a moonroof which is not offered on the Escape XLS. The CR-V has numerous other items that are not offered on the Escape XLS. All for less money."
"The Escape XLT has a V6 200 Hp engine which is not offered on the top of the line CRV. The XLT has numerous other items that are also offered on the CRV. But XLT can be bought for less money."
It is intersting, when you guys compare the technical details, Escape V6 is used (mainly Varmint did this I4-V6 comparison) but if the issue is pricing then apple to apple, huh!
"
Follow me sometime. I'll show you.
That's just the way it has been done in this forum since the beginning. Escape fans in this forum have always agreed that the I4 version of the Escape was a joke. So, we never bothered to discuss it.
When the I4 CR-V accelerates at about the same rate, gets better mileage, and runs smoother, there was not a lot of reason to use anything but the V6 Escape for comparison purposes. Towing was really the only big advantage for the V6.
Now that Ford has added the 2.3L engine (a nice engine for small cars), we can certainly go that route.
However capable the 2004 Escape was, the 2005 lacks the capability of manually locking in the rear wheel drive, which makes it worse for off road. I think Ford made a mistake there, or else are positioning the 2005 model in the same segment as the CR-V, that is, light off road. In both vehicles, starting in 2005, the transmission automatically engages when the front wheel slip. The CR-V RT4WD is updated this year to be faster. The Escape is downgraded to be less capable.
The off road capability and the towing (neither of which I do) were the real advantages of the Escape. Now it it reduced to just the towing, IMHO.
And look at all the things the CR-V has that the Escape doesn't. 4 wheel disc brakes, Moonroof, 16" wheels, 6 disc in dash CD changer w/ 6 speakers, etc.
Are we supposed to take into account people's negotiating skills when we look at prices?
MSRP is the ONLY way to compare accurately.
I said this was an apples to apples comparison. The CR-V has a 4 cylinder engine. If someone is so intent on a V6 Escape maybe they should move to the Hyundai Santa Fe or the Saturn VUE comparisons, since those can be had with a V6.
Thanks for proving my point.
I can pass the water with my dirtbike...LOL
Escape has more things that CRV doesn't have. I wanted to give you "apple to apple comparison" and kept the list short. Didn't add things that I didn't see on Honda side.
Visit Ford's site and see what other htings Escape has CRV doesn't.
Monroof is not an option on Escape XLS.
MSRP has no meaning, price occurs where supply meets demand which is close to TMV.
Not exactly but we all thought that way at first too.
It is true that the '05's system lacks the locking feature. However, having owned both I have to say that the new system is a big improvement over the old.
The new system is electronic whereas the old was mechanical which allows the former to "predict" wheel slippage and send power to the rear before any slippage even occurs. It does work very, very well I might add. I can't get the front wheels to spin and I've tried to do it in mud, rain, sand, and gravel. Snow is the only thing I haven't been in yet but it is coming this way soon.
Since it was mechanical, the old system had to wait for the front wheels to slip before doing anything about it. Therefore the front wheels did slip from time to time and could spin for quite a while in the "Auto" mode. The "On" mode didn't actually lock the axles together as most people think. All the 'On' mode did was start the fluid churning a little early thus sending a small amount of power to the rear wheels at all times. Use it on dry pavement and you can kiss your drivetrain goodbye.
In contrast, the new system does not "crab and bind" at all and since it can predict slippage it is still faster than the old 'On' mode which had to react to a slip after it happened.
MT just did a comparo on some small SUVs. The Escape took take top honors in the off-roading portion of the test beating the Equinox, Santa Fe, and VUE Redline pretty handily according to them. Unfortunately the CR-V was left out because it lacks a V6.
For the last time.
The CR-V has a 4 cylinder engine. The Escape trim line that most approximates the CR-V is the XLS. When options are added to the XLS to bring it in line with the CR-V EX's standard equipment, the Escape is priced higher and still is missing several things the CR-V has.
According to Ford the XLS has rear drums whether in 2WD or 4WD. If this is an error, contact Ford.
According to Ford a moonroof is not an option on the XLS. If this is an error, contact Ford.
The 4 cylinder XLT trim more closely approximates the CR-V SE. Even then options need to be added to the Escape and the CR-V still is priced lower than the Escape.
MSRP IS the way to compare prices between vehicles.
The CR-V is priced lower than a comparably equipped Escape.
The CR-V has a larger displacement engine with more HP and torque than the Escape.
The CR-V even with it's larger and more powerful engine is rated significantly higher in terms of gas mileage.
And all in a vehicle that is priced lower.
Yes I'm comparing the CR-V to the 4 cylinder Escape. The only applicable comparison.