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Comments
Of course, if all one wants to do is get at the TPM sensors to install on a different set of rims then one could use any number of improper methods to rip the PAX tires free from the rim.
I recall seeing a post from someone on a different message board who made the switch from PAX to regular tires and gave manufacturer and part numbers for the different TPM sensors he had to install. I'll look for it, but if I can't find it I guess this particular item of discussion has hit a dead end until someone can come up with a reference one way or the other.
Regards, JEff
One thing I didn't see was the guy prepping the tire and support ring with the special lubricant that I understand needs to be renewed when PAX tires are changed or repaired. He just took the tire off the rim and put it back on again, didn't even remove the support ring from inside the tire and re-insert it without doing the gel thing. Those process must take some amount of time, I don't know how much, to do right. There's no comparable process with a conventional tire that we could use to make an estimate based on experience with conventional tires.
Regards, JEff
I'll bet 10 minutes per tire is a very conservative estimate versus 5 minutes for a regular tire. 20 minutes to replace a regular set versus 40 minutes for a pax set? I'm just guessing, but the point is, it shouldn't take 1 hour per tire.
I also have no idea how long it takes to prep the support ring, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't easy to do right and could take more than 2-3 minutes depending on what's involved.
The support ring has to be removed from the old tire - that much should be quick. But is the gel put on the ring before the ring goes into the new (or repaired) tire? If so, how to get the ring into the tire without messing up the application.
Or goes the gel go onto the ring, or onto the inner surface of the tire, with the ring inside the tire? Not a lot of clearance for a big fat hand or a tool to get in there, and how to see inside to be sure of getting even distribution?
And what is the importance of even distribution? Whatever amount of gel is in there has to be significant for wheel and tire balance. Even if only a few ounces, how much do balancing weights weigh? Only a few ounces? And the gel is located further out from the center of rotation - more torque per ounce than balancing weights due to the longer distance from the center of rotation.
If the gel is not evenly distributed when the tire is first mounted and balanced, it will be eventually move around and become evenly distributed due to the rotational forces. This will cause the wheel and tire assembly to go out of balance over time resulting in? Vibration at higher speeds? Quicker tire wear? Do we ever hear of Odyssey Touring owners complaining of such things?
These things are speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if proper tire preparation is critical, not the easiest thing to accomplish, and time consuming to get done right. Especially for the inexperienced. And it would not surprise me if poor tire preparation, due to inexperience or trying to do the job too quickly, is a contributor to some of the things that PAX owners complain about.
I'll be needing new tires before the snow comes - I've got 38,000 miles on them now and am just reaching the wear indicators. I'll try to watch what goes on and see if I can learn what the PAX tire prep involves.
Regards, JEff
I think the gel is applied to the inside of the tire, not the ring. It's just there to reduce heat from friction. I would think you just "paint" it on with a brush or some similar technique.
You also said something that's important. It probably IS a pain and takes extra time for the inexperienced. But once you've done a few sets it's probably no big deal. Maybe that's why the prices are falling so quick now. Someone on another site said his wife just got a cut tire this week and brought it in their local Honda dealership. The tire was replaced for $190 OTD. He said the whole thing was done quickly while she waited. Very uneventful. That was encouraging to hear.
I took another look at my PAX tires last night, and noticed that the tire sidewall actually sticks out over the rim by a small amount where the tire meets the wheel. The sidewall comes straight down, and the tire is as wide where it meets the rim as it is back up at the center of the sidewall. A conventional tire has a sidewall that curves around, like a doughnut, and is inside the rim where tire and wheel meet, leaving a good size v-shape circumferential groove. A PAX tire and wheel does not have this groove at the point of contact. The sidewal sits tight against the top of the wheel rim.
When off the wheel, the edge of the PAX tire sidewall is actually bending out, away from plane of the tire. The PAX sidewall is wider at the mounting edges than it is further up along the sidewall or where the sidewall meets the tread, and wider than the wheel is. When mounted, this puts creates greater sideways pressure betweeen the tire and the wheel rim than a conventional tire would have. This is probably part of what keeps the tire more firmly on the rim in the event of a flat.
I can see why the PAX tire needs the special rollers that press strictly in the inward direction to push the tire off the 'shoulder' of the wheel.
Regards, JEff
One thing that may affect the recommended driving distance (and speed) on a doughnut spare has nothing to do with the strength and durability of the tire - it's the tire's size. The small diameter means that the spare is going to be spinning a lot more RPMs than a standard tire. It's going to put quite a strain on the drive train when the spare is a powered wheel.
Regards, JEff
Best Regards,
Shipo
I don't know how much diameter a PAX tire loses when flat. I don't know if I want to deliberately flatten one to find out!
Regards, JEff
Funny thing though, after calculating the tire diameter, the donut spares (now retired in favor of full sized wheels and tires) that we have split the difference between the two different tire sizes that were available for our vans. Consider the following:
215/65 R15 -- Diameter: 26.0" -- Standard tire
145/90 D16 -- Diameter: 26.3" -- Both of our donut spares
215/65 R16 -- Diameter: 27.0" -- The optional tires on both of our vans
Hmmm, I wonder why your Sebring has such a small donut. :confuse:
Best Regards,
Shipo
Don't know. I wonder why your Caravan's have such big ones! I agree that in your case the size difference is not significant.
I used to have a Chrysler Town & Country. I always thought that was a full-size spare hanging under there. In fact, I'm sure it was - it just had a plain steel wheel instead of the fancy aluminum wheels. It was a 1996, if I recall correctly.
Regards, JEff
Best Regards,
Shipo
Would be nice if Honda offered an exchange program.
http://automobiles.honda.com/odyssey/
The only thing I'd suggest is to double check with the tire manufacturer to make sure they are not already offerign you an extended or enhanced warranty. Michelin offers 2 year road hazard insurance with the tires. Of course, the Finance guy still tried to sell me tire insurance eventhough it was written right in the tire warranty that I already had the coverage.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regarding your Odyssey, a new set of wheels and tires should cost a bit less than a new set of PAX skins (installed), and you should easily be able to peddle those at lease end, so I still think you'd be ahead of the game if you bought a new set.
Best Regards,
Shipo
All the Honda dealers in this area have changers now and the price seems reasonable. However, just decided on (and bought)an MDX. It doesn't have runflats like the Ody and I actually find that as a negative. However, I ended up NOT buying the Odyssey because my wife felt we could finally get buy without one anymore. 15 years of minivans is finally over for us. It was a fun era with the "bus" but all 3 kids are in high school now and always going in different directions at different times. Hardly ever travel as a full family anmore. The MDX "jump seats" in the back are good enough I suppose.
I'm thinking that you'd be much better off going to TireRack and buying an aftermarket set of wheels. TireRack is currently showing a fairly nice looking Rial 17x7.5 wheel that fits your van, and it is only $141 per wheel. From there you could add a set of tires Michelin LX4 tires ($131 per tire), and have the entire set shipped to your home for $1,088 plus shipping and taxes. My bet is that if you call them, you can probably work it out so that you can send them a set of TPMS sensors and have the entire assembly put together free.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I couldn't bear paying $1200 for a set of tires at only 35k miles, but I liked the Ody so much that it made sense to get another. What changed my mind about PAX? I now live in VA where there are many more PAX service centers and I'm now well-informed about all the PAX issues. I was now able to make a cost-benefit analysis.
If Honda had advised me of the PAX limitations, costs, and treadwear up front when I bought my first PAX-equipped van, I never would have had an issue with them in the first place (but it's also true that I probably wouldn't have bought the car).
but hey, if you got the money and the inclination to change your ride every 2 to 3 years, more power to ya.
Uh, no. I think spending $45.00 per year on road side assistance through my insurance company is a good deal. Certainly a much better idea than spending money on whacked out run flat tires that are generally useless after 35K.
No thank you sir.
My friend lost his brother last month. He was changing a tire on the side of the highway. You're spending almost FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS on a vehicle. Pony up for road side assistance.
As an aside, we have never paid more than $500 over invoice for the vehicles we traded for, so it really is the resale value of the Odyssey that kept me afloat. My wife says I have a sickness, but it keeps her in new cars so she doesn't complain too much!
Sorry, I'm not willing to buy insurance for someone else's life. Judge me how you wish but, I'm not going to buy a car with protecting the AAA guy on my list of priorities. When I pull over with a flat, I'll decide where the best place to pull over is, thinking about the AAA guy. But not before.
I also said I paid 34K NOT 40K. Can you read?
And I said ALMOST 40.
al·most [awl-mohst, awl-mohst] –adverb
very nearly; all but: almost every house; almost the entire symphony; to pay almost nothing for a car; almost twice as many books.
After tax, title and license it was pretty close. Even if that 34K DID include TTL, it STILL is ALMOST 40K.
:P
"Even if that 34K DID include TTL, it STILL is ALMOST 40K"
Try telling that you your 34 year-old wife. Then let me know where to send the funeral flowers.
Regards, JEff
:shades:
I can't argue with that.
Right, you understood what I meant. I don't think a woman would agree with you that 34 is almost 40 - in terms of age or thousands of dollars.
Anyway, back to PAX tires ....
Regards, JEff
I spent hours reseaching what I had and what I needed in order to get a package that meets or exceeds the PAX ratings for weight and speed. My mileage is also improved. I now have over 2000 miles on these tires and the ride and handling is far superior to Michellin. In comparison Michellins ride like truck tires - which they are.
I now carry a standard plug repair kit and a cheap tire inflator. The cost to me was expensive but cheaper than PAX and when I sell the Ody, I'll mount the original PAX back on the van.
I OWN A REPAIR CENTER IN BOSTON. I SWITCHED FROM CHRYSLER T&C TO TRY AN ODYSSEY. THE ONE I ROAD TESTED DID NOT HAVE RUN FLAT TIRES. THE ONE I TOOK DELIVERY ON DID.. WHAT A MISTAKE BUYING A CAR WITH THESE TIRES AND WHEELS AND I'M IN THE BUSINESS. LET ME TELL YOU THESE TIRES ONLY GET A MAX OF 30,000 MILES OF WEAR AS OPPOSE TO A CONVENTIONAL TIRES 50, - 60,000 MILES. IT TAKES A GARAGE 1 HR PER TIRE TO PUT ON A NEW ONE, THE TIRES ARE EXPENSIVE. THE RIMS THEY COME WITH HAVE NO LIP SO MANY F.E. ALIGNMENT SHOPS WILL HAVE A HARD TIME DOING AN ALIGNMENT.
I DID NOT GET A SPARE WITH MY VAN. IF YOU ARE OUT TRAVELING, ONLY CERTAIN TIRE STORES WILL STOCK THESE TIRES...ON AND ON .. I WILL BE GETTING RID OF IT BEFORE 25,000. MILES. I HAVE 13,000. ON IT NOW.
WARNING, RUN FLAT TIRE IDEA SOUNDS GOOD BUT BUYER BEWARE.. DON'T BE FOOLED.
DAN