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Comments
Best Regards,
Shipo
You're right. It was written by actualsize replying to you, I got the names backwards. I apologize for my confusion.
Regards, JEff
'05 Odyssey also left my family stranded, out of cell range, on Berthoud Pass in winter due to fuel pump malfunction at 18k (slipping reliability as well?)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards, JEff
Regards/Fountane
Regards/Fountane
Best Regards,
Shipo
And, no, don't recall anybody ever (much less "often times") posting anything close to your $800 number for a PAX tire, either here or on the Ody Club website.
I do, here's one example: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef3f1cf/699
Additionally, the present relevance of market conditions 18 months ago is questionable at best.
Just ask..most any homeowner.
Given that PAX has finally been certified as a bankrupt technology, that problem is only likely to get worse as Michelin gradually decreases the number of PAX tires they make. I look at it this way, one of our vans is ten years old, and I can buy a full set of tires for it for less than $500 out the door. How much is it going to cost an owner of a PAX Ody for a set of tires in ten years? I'm thinking a lot. :P
The Michelin PAX tires use a support ring mounted on the wheel inside the tire to support the weight of the car when air pressure is lost. And a unique rim-tire flange design to prevent the tires from coming off the rim.
Regards, JEff
Did your quote include new rings and gel packs? If not, then pump up your quote an extra $90 or so per wheel. You won't find out you need the rings until the tires are already removed from the rims. Then, the dealer will probably have to special order the rings, but that should only set you back 2-3 days without your van. Hopefully, your dealer will lend you a nice Civic to tote your family around in while you wait for the rings. If not, then you'll have to rent yourself a family hauler and add in the cost...
The market may have changed since I last did the research in November, but the lowest price I found within 100 miles of my home in VA was roughly $1200 for a set of four without new rings. Only two PAX dealers actually had the tires in stock and neither had the rings.
Although I agree with the basic concept of the PAX system, the implementation of the program was horrible: insufficient supply, insufficient support network and much higher than advertised costs. When one throws in outright lying by most dealers regarding those issues, the program borders on criminal.
But your larger point is quite valid. The fact that one may or may not need expensive extra parts when buying tires is unbelieveable and will, no doubt, eventually play a key role in PAX litigation that will in the end cost Honda and Michelin plenty.
Simple nail got stuck in my tire on a Friday night. Drove car home 5 miles, and started calling around on Sat. morning. Found an America's Tire Company that would be able to repair the tire for roughly $80 labor. Drove car 30 miles to this shop...
Apparently driving 30 miles on the tire heated up the gel inside and dried it up. The tire was no longer repairable, and I needed a new one. Waited 2 days for new tire to be delivered. To Michelon's credit.. they covered the $199 for my tire after the tire dealer called them up and explained what happened, and I just had to pay the labor of $80.
The whole system is just an inconvenience... I'm lucky to live in an area where it only cost me 2 days without my car. With this PAX system now an option in the 08 Honda Oddessy model, I don't think the situation will get any better for those looking for more michelon pax certified tire centers.
Agreed, now that the PAX system is effectively a Lame Duck, I'd be suprised if any additional tire dealers or Acura/Honda dealerships invest in the necessary equipment to service them. I strongly suspect that as time goes on, and as more folks convert their vans to GFT style tires, finding services for PAX vans will become a bit sketchy.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Talk about lame duck ...
NY Times, April 20, 2008
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
Honda recommends that owners who have the PAX system not change to conventional wheels. Chris Martin, a Honda spokesman, said the Touring model’s suspension was tuned for the PAX tires and switching to conventional wheels “would compromise the ride and handling.”
I find that especially funny as the owners that I've talked to that have made the switch have universally stated that the "ride and handling" improved once the heavy PAX wheel and tire assembly was replaced by a conventional setup weighing less than two-thirds of the weight.
Hmmm, maybe by "compromise" they mean any deviation from OEM, good or bad.
Best Regards,
Shipo
In reality, any time you change a tire away from the OE, PAX or not, run-flat or not--even if you retain the same size--you are messing up the balance a little because the tires are tuned along with the springs and shocks to work together as a system.
But people make tire changes all the time--they almost never buy exact OE replacements, and many times they change wheels, too--without heed, and the world has not come to an end. They buy aftermarket shocks, off-brand replacement brake pads, a different exhaust. So what?
This statement form Honda, therefore, while technically containing a granule of truth, is just a bit disingenuous. "Change" is more accurate than "compromise" and while I can see how the corporation might be unwilling to publicly endorse such a move, the difference can't amount to very much. Actually, I'd love to do a test myself.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
I've yet to talk to an Odyssey owner who tracked his or her van prior to a wheel and tire swap (not terribly surprising), so I cannot report on measured improvements. That said, they've all reported a much better ride and much more precise handling. Go figure. :P
Best Regards,
Shipo
Same is true of an Odyssey, but in a slightly different vein. Sure the PAX ring made it possible to retain softish-sidewalls, but the humungous unsprung mass of a PAX at each corner required more damping in the struts to keep them on the ground and forced the use of tie-rod ends with bulbous mass dampers on them. Damage control again, but for high unsprung mass instead of stiff tires.
Run-flat tires of any kind impose engineering compromises that no ride engineer wants to make.
Twitter: @Edmunds_Test
I am a Honda Odyssey 2005 owner and now needing to purchase a second set of PAX tires, with no options to purchase any other aftermarket tires -- this is ridiculous.
Thanks,
Gary
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Thanks,
Barry
Keeping the TPMS system active seems tricky?
I am pleased with the softer ride and better feel of the road.
I swaped out my PAX wheels with a set of EX wheels. It drives just fine.
Thanks,
Oldbob1
I am also a Honda Odyssey 2005 owner and now needing to purchase a second set of PAX tires, with no options to purchase, I have put in only 35k miles with the original tires.
Thanks,
Aru
Michelin has also discontinued making the PAX tires after just a few years so I'm sure pretty soon the few shops which have the special equipment to service PAX tires will find it costly to maintain it together with a trained service crew.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/automobiles/20TIRES.html
Best regards,
Shipo
Shepherd, Finkelman, Miller & Shah LLP
http://sfmslaw.com
Ironically, it was CHEAPER to replace all 4 rims and tires than it was to buy just the new PAX tires (which would have been my 3rd set in 50k miles). And the Toyo tires I purchased are rated at 80k miles with regular rotation (about 4 sets of PAX tires based on my experience).
They were able to even using the existing TirePressureSensor monitors and put them on my new rims. Everything is fully functional and working great.
Overall the guys at Les Schwab were very knowledgable. They said they are "de-paxing" more and more Honda Odyssesys.
What a relief to have the damn PAX system off my car. Now I can go on long road trips with peace of mind!
GaryM
The honda dealer I called recommended Honda EX-L 16" rims and quoted $2,100 for replacing the tires, rims, lug nuts, and adding a spare. Seems really high. So I think I'll try a local tire company with what you used.
Also, was Les Schwab able to get a spare that fit in the wheel storage area in the back?