How about $200? $100? $50? $25? Don't we all have some line? I don't judge those who would drive 200 miles state for $250, just please let live those who would not :shades:
It's an figurative speech - exaggeration. I just meant to say that in this case if someone sees value in something you don't, it does not make them wrong - just different.
You stated your case - no value in "niceness premium" to you and it's fine. Why is it bothering you that someone else sees value in it?
It doesn't bother me at all, I'm merely advocating a position that readers are free to accept or reject.
Being that I am wearing my consumer advocate hat on this thread, my objective is to get readers to question why they are placing such a high premium on something that not only delivers little or no value, but may actually backfire on them. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but I will continue to encourage others to fight the impulse to pay more for this.
Just a small example: you own an Audi (or used to) as your nick suggests. Great car. However, others would say it's the most overpriced piece of junk humanity ever conceived, cause they value reliability over anything else. They would never pay "German engineering" premium, deeming it completely worthless, as even a nicest design is not worth a lot if the item is not working as designed.
Totally fair, and I don't object to one holding that point of view. The arguments against owning a German car are pretty hard to debate, these costly Teutons aren't exactly the most efficient use of one's cash.
Hello again So, I have been planning to go to a dealership and buy a new car within a month. Last night I did a trade in appraisal thing in which I had to put my phone #, email addy, etc. I didn't realize it was going to be sent to a dealer (shoulda read the fine print :P). No big deal really.
When I got home today, I had 1 phone message and 2 emails from a salesman at the dealership. He wants me to call him so he can get more info. His email even says being an internet customer, he can give me a bottom line price with no hassle or no haggle.
So anyways, I'm wondering if the rules change any if I decide to do the negotiating online instead of in person. I kinda like the idea of working out a deal while sitting in my pj's in front of the computer!
Q: "SO, IN EVEN SIMPLER FORM: Is your trust worth $300?"
A: No
Q: "For either answer what will be your threshold",
A: I would not pay a penny more just because I trusted the seller.
Of course, this is rather academic. The only people I trust are close family members, and they would sell me things for a super low price anyway.
$300 can be used to buy some very important things. In 1971 I bought a ring for that amount, gave it to my girlfriend, and she accepted. On July 3, we will be married 35 years.
I never realized that car dealers are a separate class of species.
I cannot think of another consumer purchase that combines such a high purchase price and the need for financing with the wide variance in final prices and the multiple layers of profit that are included in car sales. Add to this the commission/ incentives systems, and you are left with a situation in which the consumer needs to be prepared.
So, obviously trust has no value to you, since you cannot really trust them anyway (as you have no real way of knowing thus you have to operate on assumption you cannot). I can see that and it certainly makes sense.
Then how about comfort? We all buy more comfortable items, as we believe they are worth more than those less comfortable ones. Is more comfortable purchasing experience a product itself that could be priced? Part of it may be for example the F&I guy putting all the numbers as agreed with the sales guy with no mop&glow at the first contract reading. For me it is worth something and I'm willing to accept paying more for such experience - probably not much more, yet enough to make a difference. But of course "not much" for me may be "too much" for you and that's fine, too.
NoNOnononononono! ALWAYS negotiate/fix the price of the car you're going to BUY! A dealer doesn't need more info about a trade. Worry about the trade AFTER you've taken care of what you're buying. Your trade-in should have nothing to do with whatever your buying. If you link it to the new car deal there are about 90 ways they'll try to screw you. And regardless of what some on this site say that is exactly there job : to get the most amount of money they can out of you. Some'll even tell you you should be happy with that. They are wrong. Even if you still owe money on your trade in don't give him any more info. He's setting you up.
Well, at some point someone's going to have to look at your trade-in in person to make sure you weren't lying about anything. So make sure you're happy with the no-trade in price first. Let anything you get back from the trade-in be a bonus. (And if the dealer asks, just tell them "I might be offering it to a family member" or something. But get it out of the up-front negotiation.)
If you're willing to take a deal that's going to be *good* but not necessarily *best*, the internet pricing can work for you. You might still be able to do a little negotiation, but you shouldn't have to (or expect to) do very much. A true internet/fleet sales department is built more on volume than on anything else. (Or so the stories go.)
Akenaten is right, you're probably best off not negotiating your trade until you've already cut the deal for your car purchase. If you look back, there are some posts that discuss why this is the case.
Prior to going into the dealership, you should have thoroughly researched the value of your trade, and decided whether you would like to sell it for yourself. Feel free to not bother with the trade if your trade-in price isn't met.
And keep your eye on the ball with the price of the new car. Dealers will often attempt to confuse you by jumbling numbers together (trade-in, down payment, monthly payment), and to focus your attention on monthly payments. Your missions should be to know (a) the exact price of the new car, (b) the exact price of your trade-in, and (c) all of the terms of any dealer financing, including interest rate, term, loan amount, and amortization method. If the latter uses the Rule of 78, avoid it. (If you search back through the thread, you'll find some explanations and link that shows why this is important.)
No takers? Not surprising in the least. Why do you salespeople come to this topic discussion if you offer nothing benefical on purchase strategy/negotiation? You only offer suggestions on why a consumer should "not" try to get the lowest price, and try to shoot down the strategies and views that don't coincide with yours...or are not benefical to you.
The frequent generic replies of, "do your research, go to a dealer you trust , offer a price, be kinder...don't be a grinder" is worthless. Have you guys got anything you can share on how you conduct a sale to maximise dealer profit? Isn't that your job? ... getting a consumer to pay more.
I know that type of information may be considered aiding and abiding the enemy....and could get you tar and feathered by your salesmanager. But,you can't harm the salesman reputation any more than it already is. I 'm sure for the most part your strategy to maximise profit is honest. I don't think anyone here begrudges salepeople for going for MSRP.
I think I didn't explain this right. I was at the local Ford dealer's website that had a link to an online appraisal thing called Black Book. So I did that. I didn't know that it was directly linked to the dealer and that my information would be passed onto them.
Be careful what you say here. I've been warned more than once for being mean to the salespeople on this forum. I agree with your post but some people around here actually think that a salesperson is going to help someone get a better deal(in other words they want to pump as much money as they can out of you).
I'm looking at '02 and '03 full size GM SUV's and wondering if the odometer was rolled back, would there be another place in the vehicle's onboard computers where the actual mileage could be verified?
bobst.....I guess that's where we differ the most. If I don't trust the dealership, then I'm not going to do business with them.
I'm savy enough (as you are, too) and have bought enough cars to know what goes on with incorrect contracts, "mop & glo" sealant for $1,000, etching for $500, F&I, etc.
Dealers I work with don't do all of that. Matter of fact, I consider it a major waste of time with those dealers who practice some of those things.
Truth told, I'm more of an advocate of your "make an offer, accepted or rejected" method.
Everyone asks for a dealership to just give them a bottom line price, but no one is willing to buy that way (i.e. Saturn). I guess that's why people cut out coupons, or comb the newspaper to view the sale prices of their favorite jeans. The price they pay may not be the lowest price that may come down the pike tomorrow, on anything.
By trusting my dealership, and rewarding them with repeat business, I've assured myself of a great price and all the intangibles I've mentioned in other posts (believe me, there are many more).
You and I both know what any given brand/model will sell for because of our research. As long as we know that, it becomes a matter of where and who do you trust to make a deal with.
I consider all the ADMs, dealer accesories, etc added to the car's price to be an impediment to me buying a car for the price I know it will sell for. On top of that, the dealers I trust always seem to offer me the best "perks" and service....in addition to a good price.
So, yes, trust is important to me. I expect more than just a good deal when buying a car. I expect a good deal, and a good transaction, and "perks" and good service (sales or otherwise). Set your expectations low enough and you'll be rewarded with the lowest common denominator when you sign on the dotted line.
two things. First I don't see anyone here advocating going long distances or spending a lot of time to save $25 bucks or $50 or $200. Secondly if you can save $300 by brushing up your negotiation skills and spending an extra 10-15 minutes then why not?
No since the original post was about doing business with two different dealers one sleazy one more honest I will presume that neither one is materially further than the other. Now since I would (and would advise everyone to do this) go over everything with a fine tooth comb finding and correcting the first dealers junk shouldn't cost me much time.
For some people it isn't worth the aggravation, thats fine but I would get far more aggravated on Dubsdread than I would at any dealer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I used to shop for groceries at WalMart. You know - for graduate student from overseas that's basically only place to go in midsized college town. Then I got a nice engineering job, of course kept shopping at Walmart - prices can't be beaten. Perhaps not as often, but frequently enough. Over time I reduced my visits to very vew and recently every time I go I swear to myself never coming again. I do break that promise, but the period increases almost by the visit, as it takes longer and longer to forget long lines at register, crappy ambience, general incompetence of staff, constant shortages of some goods, low variety of products, etc.
I have now more money and less time and patience. My expectations grew and I found myself willing to pay more for the same product (within reason), needless to add there are some products simply not available there. Occasionally I ask myself how much would it cost at the Supercenter across the street, but then I picture all those things I mentioned and I carry on. You can call it a "niceness premium", too.
I think same principal applies to car shopping. Some people would always go to Walmarts of car dealers, most would be at least tempted. However, after a while many would say why should I expose myself to it if I really don't have to.
I have notice the most vocal salesman lately (at least the most vocal of who I know are salesmen) is trying to demean those who try to get the best price. He has been doing this by claiming that we would drive forever and spend a considerable amount of time doing so. When that couldn't be further from the truth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
By trusting my dealership, and rewarding them with repeat business, I've assured myself of a great price and all the intangibles I've mentioned in other posts (believe me, there are many more).
With me I don't see much utility in creating a relationship with a dealer. Its not like I buy a lot or cars and may not for three or four more years (knock on wood). And there is no guarantee that I will buy a car they sell next time. I never use their shops unless its for warranty work and I have taken cars in for warranty work 3 times in 25 years.
As long as we know that, it becomes a matter of where and who do you trust to make a deal with.
It becomes a matter of where can I get what I want for the least amount of money for the least amount of hassle. Of course some amount of trust is needed, but 99% of the dealers out there have that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The next day I went to a different dealer, offered $13750 plus the Taurus, and they accepted.
Rule of thumb, if they accept your first offer (especially if they accepted it right away) you paid to much.
I would strongly suspect that if you went to that first dealer and used simple negotiation techniques that have been described here you would have gotten that Honda for less than the $13,750 and your Taurus. You would have had it that day and if done right the total time wouldn't have been much longer than going to the other dealer the next day.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think thats a very poor comparison. Shopping for a car is much different than shopping at Wal-mart. Secondly you are going to spend much, much more for the car than you ever would at Wal-mart. I can see skipping Wal-mart when they can save you 20 cents, but not a dealer that could save you hundreds maybe thousands of $.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Bob, I generally like your method, I like it a lot. It's simple and provided that you know the market value of the purchased and traded vehicles well it will likely yield a competitive and streamlined process, too.
Major limitations I can see is that you walking away needs to be a real possibility for the dealer, i.e.: 1. You need enough dealerships in your area, so walking away has a real weight as there is a real competition within the brand. 2. The model, color and trim you are buying need to be in ample supply. When you walk away from this car, you have to know that there are five identical ones (and 15 others in different color) in 20 mile radius just waiting for you. Only then making small $100 adjustment by the next visit is meaningful. May not work on that red stick shift station wagon I have covetted for last five years, usually not available at all within 300 miles, or there may be 1 (one) in the entire state.
Basically, your method works really well for the type of cars you have bought. It might not for ones I like, as my walking away may not be a viable possibility.
Totally wrong. You buy cars only so often. You shop groceries every week. Say you save 5 bucks at Walmart per week (you can actually do more). Say you buy car every 4 years. $5 x 52weeks x 4 years = $1040! Comparison is totally warranted. Math is simple, just apply it right.
I purchased a new Nissan Altima on 04/17/06. Twelve days after I purchased it, I noticed an oil leak. I brought it back to the dealership and what they found was this, " oil leaking from back side of engine. cleaned oil leaks . checked and found oil leaking from the embossment for motor bolt hole. ( aluminum block). Removed bolts and oil leaked out." They explained that when the holes for the motor mounts were drilled, Nissan drilled them too deep. They will have to replace the engine. Now, this vehicle still has the paper tags on it with Approx 850 miles. My initial feeling from the dealership and Nissan is that I am stuck with the vehicle and they will replace the engine. I told them I wouldn't take anything less than another new vehicle. Now I have another concern. Is this the beginning of a future recall on the 2.5 engine with certain MFG dates. If they do give me a new vehcile, will it be recalled. Very concerned about the outcome. Any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this?
I have Lease for Toyota Corolla 2002 that ending September 2006 (3 more payments on lease, 1000 miles over limit). I want to buy Civic 2006. Can I trade-in Corolla when I buy Civic, and how it’s working.(or it’s better to return Corolla, not trade-in?) Would appreciate anyone's input. Thanks
I think he can trade-in the Corolla. If you're trading in a vehicle you've financed, unless it's paid off you don't own it either. You just need to see what the Corolla is worth. If you have equity in it, it might be worth trading. Otherwise, just turn it in, pay the mileage penalty and go get the Civic.
gen - You can't "trade in" the Corolla for the Civic, since you don't own the Corolla - it's leased. You could choose to buy the Corolla at the end of the lease and THEN trade it in on the Civic, but I suspect that it would be a money-losing prospect. What will it cost you to buy the Corolla at the end of the lease?
Basically, I think you'll probably be best returning the Corolla.
Major limitations I can see is that you walking away needs to be a real possibility for the dealer, i.e.:
1.You need enough dealerships in your area, so walking away has a real weight as there is a real competition within the brand.
If you are an effective negotiator, this should largely not matter.
One point made previously is the need to balance your approach with two messages: (a) I am willing and able to buy TODAY with (b) but I don't need to buy today, and I don't need to buy this type of car.
For example, if you are in the market for a Honda Accord, the dealer should be left with the general impression of:
-You are willing to buy the same thing somewhere else, i.e. I can buy a Honda Accord from another dealership
-You are willing to buy a directly competing product, i.e. a Camry, Malibu, Jetta, Mazda 6, Galant, Fusion, G6, etc., etc. would be just fine with you
-You are even willing to stretch a bit and to look at completely different kinds of cars that will also satisfy your needs
-You are willing to buy nothing
One of the worst things you could do is to make it clear that you must have a specific car, otherwise you will make it much harder to play chicken. A dealer will sense more competition if you have broad tastes than if you have more narrowly defined ones.
If you are in the market for used Ferraris, you will have a bit less leverage, as everyone knows that you are unlikely to satisified by an alternative. But for your average car, this idea should be easy to impart, even if it doesn't happen to be true.
By the way, this is one reason to be careful of what you reveal during the relationship building portion of your shopping. If you make it obvious that your dealer has the "perfect car" and that nothing else will do, then you will pay more than will someone who appears to be more blase about it. Again, show enough interest that it is clear that you are willing to buy, but not so much that you lack options elsewhere.
By trusting my dealership, and rewarding them with repeat business, I've assured myself of a great price and all the intangibles I've mentioned in other posts (believe me, there are many more).
Trust doesn't assure you of anything. Giving trust does not ensure that the other party is trustworthy.
You and I both know what any given brand/model will sell for because of our research. As long as we know that, it becomes a matter of where and who do you trust to make a deal with.
No, there is no definitive price guide that will tell you this. At the very best, you will be able to make an educated guess that will get you into the ballpark, but your guess may be wrong.
And being that there is no single market price, you may find yourself in the position of negotiating at the low end of the range if you negotiate properly. Making the first offer assures you of not finding that range, because you have chosen the bottom without ever getting feedback or cues from the seller that could have led you to a lower price point.
I consider all the ADMs, dealer accesories, etc added to the car's price to be an impediment to me buying a car for the price I know it will sell for. On top of that, the dealers I trust always seem to offer me the best "perks" and service....in addition to a good price.
The easiest way to deal with ADM, mop-and-glo, etc. is to simply ignore them and not pay for them. You set yourself up for overpaying if you focus on window stickers instead of invoice.
And I still haven't seen these perks. I get the same warranty service and such that everyone else is. Maybe if I paid more, the coffee in the lounge would be better?
Actually buying groceries at Wal-mart will save you very little, if anything, over the course of a year. Wal-mart got a slightly bloody nose when they went into groceries and didn't do as good as they did with dry goods. You see grocery stores operate on a razor thin margin and have always been n a very competitive market. If you think you are saving money buying groceries at Wal-mart over Kroger, Safeway, Piggly Wiggly and the like your are sadly mistaken.
Again your comparison is poor.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You may have a different lifestyle, shopping habits, location, what not. I don't really care. Comparison absolutely stands FOR ME, because I actually made price comparisons over extended periods of time. I know how much I spent and on what. I knew the prices for particular items I was buying on regular basis, both everyday and sale. $5 per week on average would be a bare minimum on items I end up buying, if I consistently chose Walmart over Publix (SE favorite). However, for last year I have declined that discount because I refuse to experience the things I already mentioned.
Everybody likes savings, I do too. I always way product's value and try to go for the best as I see it. $300 or even $10 may be worth an effort in right circumstances. My position is store itself may and often is part of the product value, regardless whether it sells groceries, electronics, appliances or cars. It is ones judgement how much it's worth as a part of the package and it is very subjective. That's why you have Walmart and Publix or Best Buy and Sound Advice and people go to all of them.
what would you have done if the original dealer told you that 13600 wouldnt work but we will do it for 13750?
Brilliant, I realise that every time I have read Bobst's story I should have asked this. No disrespect Bobst, I use a version of your method in buying my cars, but I'd love to hear your answer to this.
"I told them I wouldn't take anything less than another new vehicle."
I suspect you'll have a virtually vertical climb convincing Nissan to give you a replacement car. Only time will tell whether other examples in that engine family also exhibit your engine's defect, but, my non-expert opinion is that the malady is not widespread. Personally, I'd have no problem accepting a brand new short block under warranty. Whatever do you believe is wrong with the rest of the car that would justify a complete vehicle replacement? In any event, best of luck in your negotiations.
(Unrelated to your situation, but an interesting read, nevertheless, check out the '07 Camry new 6-sp automatic transmission troubles on Edmunds Camry discussions. May provide you with ammunition in your discussions with Nissan.)
Doing due diligence using dealer ads, invoice and MSRP, looking at incentives, status of dealer stock, busy/slow showroom floor, all these things, plus more, tell me what kind of deal I can make. As I said before, I'd say my offers are within $100 higher or lower (most times a lot lower) than any deal I've seen here at Edmunds.
I've pointed out just a couple (of many) perks I've received by going to a trustworthy dealer. My afore mentioned Acura salesperson who picks up my car for service and leaves me his "demo" to use.
The other one I mentioned was the '05 Mustang. Many untrustworthy dealers were ordering them for customers. Yet, when the car came in from the factory, these same dealers were adding ADMs to ordered cars because of their popularity and telling the ordering customer to take it or leave it. Me? My dealer sold mine to me for just under invoice on X plan when everyone around him was, at minimum, charging MSRP.
I'd venture to say that I could buy something more mundane, like an '07 Camry, right now...with little more than a phone call to my Toyota dealer. And have it delivered to my doorstep before the end of the day. I'd be confident that the deal done over the phone would be within $100 of the best deal they've cut with anyone in the showroom.
We just differ in the way we approach this. I expect more, and get more from my dealings. A lot of it has to do with building business relationships. Just as much of it has to do with only doing business with trustworthy dealerships.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, though. Do what works for you.
My dealer sold mine to me for just under invoice on X plan when everyone around him was, at minimum, charging MSRP.
Thats because you got it on the X plan. Thats a set price for employees of Fords suppliers and partners. Once you had that the dealer couldn't add to that price. You got that price not because of your relationship with the dealer but because you qualified for the X plan.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Doing due diligence using dealer ads, invoice and MSRP, looking at incentives, status of dealer stock, busy/slow showroom floor, all these things, plus more, tell me what kind of deal I can make.
Again, that is an educated guess. I do those very same things, but I refrain from being overconfident about the quality of my information. You might be right, but you might not be, and you will never know unless you negotiate properly.
This strikes me as one of those classic shopping mistakes, which falls right into the dealer's hands.
--Dealerships make the buying process difficult as a matter of design, in an effort to confuse the buyer and wear him down. The classic shell game, which tries to move the buyer away from purchase price, and toward monthly payment, down payment and trade-in value so that the numbers can be toyed with.
--Then, by using the implied threat of a difficult process, the dealership seeks to use good cop methods ("value" and "service") to convince you that you have unlocked the secrets to car sales, but that they can only be obtained from good, trustworthy guys like them.
The whole thing is a classic con. The "nice" dealership appears to be better simply because they refrain from overtly tormenting you, which is offered only as a trade off for your capitulation. In exchange for the no-haggle/where-do-I-sign? attitude, they will dial in the "niceness premium", which they can now easily get away with because you've convinced yourself that you must shop there and nowhere else. (After all, you have a friend in the business who you can trust, right?)
The point is that a tactic that is understood is not a tactic. I don't even know whether my last car had an ADM on the window, because I didn't pay attention to it. The negotiation process never even included a discussion of MSRP or some other inflated number. The contract was free of "errors" because I read it and was prepared to correct it (and given the process of my pre-F&I haggle, the dealer was less inclined to try anything.)
The only intangible that I see with your method is that you are pleased with it, but that doesn't necessarily translate into lower prices, and probably results in higher prices. The desire for a trusting relationship makes a buyer an easy mark for anyone who simply wears a good guy hat and plays the role of someone "who isn't like those other guys," making that position more hazardous than beneficial.
Well, you can pass me a "binky" as well...I'm with coby. He's had his brand new Nissan for less than 3 weeks, it's leaking oil? That's not acceptable. Now, dealership will have to RIP out the old engine and put in a new. That's a lot of tangibles that could go wrong.
This same type of problem came up on another discussion three or four months back. I believe the owner of a Honda Ody that needed engine replacement(about a month after purchase)was able to get his warranty extended for free to 7 years/100,000 miles. I would go for a new vehilce, and settle for an extended warranty plus some oil changes. Good luck.
I'd check your state's lemon law, to see whether you qualify for a buyback. I also share your concern about resale value (a car that has been reconditioned generally does not have the value of a car that has maintained its condition without significant repair), and would also try to get an entirely different car.
If that's not possible, you may have to be content with the car repair. If that's the case, at least then make sure that they give you a free rental, and try to haggle for cash in order to offset the loss in resale value that comes from such significant repairs.
Jipster's suggestion for an extended warranty is also a fine idea. Make sure that such a warranty is transferable so that you can sell the car with this added benefit.
You might also want to check Nissan and Altima forums here and elsewhere, to see whether others are having similar problems. (That engine has been around for awhile, so I suspect that you got unlucky.)
The thing is its the engine that has a problem and there is nothing wrong with the car itself outside that. If the engine leaked oil, the transmission fell off, the back fender fell off and the doors wouldn't open then yes get a new car. He gets a new engine that doesn't affect the car at all.
Now, dealership will have to RIP out the old engine and put in a new. That's a lot of tangibles that could go wrong.
No the dealership has to take out the old engine and put in a new one. While its not exactly a cake walk its not quantum physics either.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
An engine replacement is a significant repair. Chances are reasonably high that a service department will have a higher error rate with this work than would workers on an assembly line who install drivetrains day in and day out with equipment designed to do it.
Replacing an engine is not a trivial repair, and mechanics often get it wrong. It's one thing to change out a starter or an alternator, it's quite another to do a transplant on the drivetrain. I definitely would not be happy if I was in this situation.
Whele he might be able to get some kind of bonus on the lease return if he was trading in one Civic for another, I'm not aware of any mixed Honda/Toyota dealerships; he'll be hard-pressed to get any specific consideration on one for the other.
At the end of the lease term, you can either buy the car, or hand it back (and pay milage penalties). But you can't really trade it in, because you don't own it. Note that if you trade in a car you still owe money on, the dealership just rolls the amount you owe into your financing deal, thus increasing the cost of your current car by that much. So they pay it off for you, but it's generally not going to be the best deal you can get...
I'd check your state's lemon law, to see whether you qualify for a buyback.
I doubt that he would qualify for a buy back under any state lemon law. Typically for something to qualify it has to be a repeating issue that cannot be resolved.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
While I do agree that its not a trivial repair but as I said its not quatum physics. Engines are replace on a daily. While I wouldn't be happy with it either I cannot see the rational to replace the entire car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Comments
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Not everything is relative, but this is.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It doesn't bother me at all, I'm merely advocating a position that readers are free to accept or reject.
Being that I am wearing my consumer advocate hat on this thread, my objective is to get readers to question why they are placing such a high premium on something that not only delivers little or no value, but may actually backfire on them. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but I will continue to encourage others to fight the impulse to pay more for this.
Just a small example: you own an Audi (or used to) as your nick suggests. Great car. However, others would say it's the most overpriced piece of junk humanity ever conceived, cause they value reliability over anything else. They would never pay "German engineering" premium, deeming it completely worthless, as even a nicest design is not worth a lot if the item is not working as designed.
Totally fair, and I don't object to one holding that point of view. The arguments against owning a German car are pretty hard to debate, these costly Teutons aren't exactly the most efficient use of one's cash.
So, I have been planning to go to a dealership and buy a new car within a month. Last night I did a trade in appraisal thing in which I had to put my phone #, email addy, etc. I didn't realize it was going to be sent to a dealer (shoulda read the fine print :P). No big deal really.
When I got home today, I had 1 phone message and 2 emails from a salesman at the dealership. He wants me to call him so he can get more info. His email even says being an internet customer, he can give me a bottom line price with no hassle or no haggle.
So anyways, I'm wondering if the rules change any if I decide to do the negotiating online instead of in person. I kinda like the idea of working out a deal while sitting in my pj's in front of the computer!
A: No
Q: "For either answer what will be your threshold",
A: I would not pay a penny more just because I trusted the seller.
Of course, this is rather academic. The only people I trust are close family members, and they would sell me things for a super low price anyway.
$300 can be used to buy some very important things. In 1971 I bought a ring for that amount, gave it to my girlfriend, and she accepted. On July 3, we will be married 35 years.
I cannot think of another consumer purchase that combines such a high purchase price and the need for financing with the wide variance in final prices and the multiple layers of profit that are included in car sales. Add to this the commission/ incentives systems, and you are left with a situation in which the consumer needs to be prepared.
Leave me out of that one. I don't like to manipulate people at all.
We offer a price, and if they accept we write a check and drive the car home. If not, we leave. We don't waste one second of the sales person's time.
Then how about comfort? We all buy more comfortable items, as we believe they are worth more than those less comfortable ones. Is more comfortable purchasing experience a product itself that could be priced? Part of it may be for example the F&I guy putting all the numbers as agreed with the sales guy with no mop&glow at the first contract reading. For me it is worth something and I'm willing to accept paying more for such experience - probably not much more, yet enough to make a difference. But of course "not much" for me may be "too much" for you and that's fine, too.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Your trade-in should have nothing to do with whatever your buying. If you link it to the new car deal there are about 90 ways they'll try to screw you. And regardless of what some on this site say that is exactly there job : to get the most amount of money they can out of you. Some'll even tell you you should be happy with that. They are wrong.
Even if you still owe money on your trade in don't give him any more info. He's setting you up.
If you're willing to take a deal that's going to be *good* but not necessarily *best*, the internet pricing can work for you. You might still be able to do a little negotiation, but you shouldn't have to (or expect to) do very much. A true internet/fleet sales department is built more on volume than on anything else. (Or so the stories go.)
Prior to going into the dealership, you should have thoroughly researched the value of your trade, and decided whether you would like to sell it for yourself. Feel free to not bother with the trade if your trade-in price isn't met.
And keep your eye on the ball with the price of the new car. Dealers will often attempt to confuse you by jumbling numbers together (trade-in, down payment, monthly payment), and to focus your attention on monthly payments. Your missions should be to know (a) the exact price of the new car, (b) the exact price of your trade-in, and (c) all of the terms of any dealer financing, including interest rate, term, loan amount, and amortization method. If the latter uses the Rule of 78, avoid it. (If you search back through the thread, you'll find some explanations and link that shows why this is important.)
The frequent generic replies of, "do your research, go to a dealer you trust , offer a price, be kinder...don't be a grinder" is worthless. Have you guys got anything you can share on how you conduct a sale to maximise dealer profit? Isn't that your job? ... getting a consumer to pay more.
I know that type of information may be considered aiding and abiding the enemy....and could get you tar and feathered by your salesmanager. But,you can't harm the salesman reputation any more than it already is. I 'm sure for the most part your strategy to maximise profit is honest. I don't think anyone here begrudges salepeople for going for MSRP.
WELL...???
As always, thanks for the advice
I'm savy enough (as you are, too) and have bought enough cars to know what goes on with incorrect contracts, "mop & glo" sealant for $1,000, etching for $500, F&I, etc.
Dealers I work with don't do all of that. Matter of fact, I consider it a major waste of time with those dealers who practice some of those things.
Truth told, I'm more of an advocate of your "make an offer, accepted or rejected" method.
Everyone asks for a dealership to just give them a bottom line price, but no one is willing to buy that way (i.e. Saturn). I guess that's why people cut out coupons, or comb the newspaper to view the sale prices of their favorite jeans. The price they pay may not be the lowest price that may come down the pike tomorrow, on anything.
By trusting my dealership, and rewarding them with repeat business, I've assured myself of a great price and all the intangibles I've mentioned in other posts (believe me, there are many more).
You and I both know what any given brand/model will sell for because of our research. As long as we know that, it becomes a matter of where and who do you trust to make a deal with.
I consider all the ADMs, dealer accesories, etc added to the car's price to be an impediment to me buying a car for the price I know it will sell for. On top of that, the dealers I trust always seem to offer me the best "perks" and service....in addition to a good price.
So, yes, trust is important to me. I expect more than just a good deal when buying a car. I expect a good deal, and a good transaction, and "perks" and good service (sales or otherwise). Set your expectations low enough and you'll be rewarded with the lowest common denominator when you sign on the dotted line.
To keep it simple, I told the dealer, "I will give you $13600 plus our Taurus for that there new Honda". They declined.
The next day I went to a different dealer, offered $13750 plus the Taurus, and they accepted.
We gave them a check for that amount and drove the new car home.
I don't think there is any need to play games with the dealer.
No since the original post was about doing business with two different dealers one sleazy one more honest I will presume that neither one is materially further than the other. Now since I would (and would advise everyone to do this) go over everything with a fine tooth comb finding and correcting the first dealers junk shouldn't cost me much time.
For some people it isn't worth the aggravation, thats fine but I would get far more aggravated on Dubsdread than I would at any dealer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If your answer is yes you manipulated them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have now more money and less time and patience. My expectations grew and I found myself willing to pay more for the same product (within reason), needless to add there are some products simply not available there. Occasionally I ask myself how much would it cost at the Supercenter across the street, but then I picture all those things I mentioned and I carry on. You can call it a "niceness premium", too.
I think same principal applies to car shopping. Some people would always go to Walmarts of car dealers, most would be at least tempted. However, after a while many would say why should I expose myself to it if I really don't have to.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With me I don't see much utility in creating a relationship with a dealer. Its not like I buy a lot or cars and may not for three or four more years (knock on wood). And there is no guarantee that I will buy a car they sell next time. I never use their shops unless its for warranty work and I have taken cars in for warranty work 3 times in 25 years.
As long as we know that, it becomes a matter of where and who do you trust to make a deal with.
It becomes a matter of where can I get what I want for the least amount of money for the least amount of hassle. Of course some amount of trust is needed, but 99% of the dealers out there have that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rule of thumb, if they accept your first offer (especially if they accepted it right away) you paid to much.
I would strongly suspect that if you went to that first dealer and used simple negotiation techniques that have been described here you would have gotten that Honda for less than the $13,750 and your Taurus. You would have had it that day and if done right the total time wouldn't have been much longer than going to the other dealer the next day.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Major limitations I can see is that you walking away needs to be a real possibility for the dealer, i.e.:
1. You need enough dealerships in your area, so walking away has a real weight as there is a real competition within the brand.
2. The model, color and trim you are buying need to be in ample supply. When you walk away from this car, you have to know that there are five identical ones (and 15 others in different color) in 20 mile radius just waiting for you. Only then making small $100 adjustment by the next visit is meaningful. May not work on that red stick shift station wagon I have covetted for last five years, usually not available at all within 300 miles, or there may be 1 (one) in the entire state.
Basically, your method works really well for the type of cars you have bought. It might not for ones I like, as my walking away may not be a viable possibility.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Can I trade-in Corolla when I buy Civic, and how it’s working.(or it’s better to return Corolla, not trade-in?)
Would appreciate anyone's input. Thanks
Basically, I think you'll probably be best returning the Corolla.
1.You need enough dealerships in your area, so walking away has a real weight as there is a real competition within the brand.
If you are an effective negotiator, this should largely not matter.
One point made previously is the need to balance your approach with two messages: (a) I am willing and able to buy TODAY with (b) but I don't need to buy today, and I don't need to buy this type of car.
For example, if you are in the market for a Honda Accord, the dealer should be left with the general impression of:
-You are willing to buy the same thing somewhere else, i.e. I can buy a Honda Accord from another dealership
-You are willing to buy a directly competing product, i.e. a Camry, Malibu, Jetta, Mazda 6, Galant, Fusion, G6, etc., etc. would be just fine with you
-You are even willing to stretch a bit and to look at completely different kinds of cars that will also satisfy your needs
-You are willing to buy nothing
One of the worst things you could do is to make it clear that you must have a specific car, otherwise you will make it much harder to play chicken. A dealer will sense more competition if you have broad tastes than if you have more narrowly defined ones.
If you are in the market for used Ferraris, you will have a bit less leverage, as everyone knows that you are unlikely to satisified by an alternative. But for your average car, this idea should be easy to impart, even if it doesn't happen to be true.
By the way, this is one reason to be careful of what you reveal during the relationship building portion of your shopping. If you make it obvious that your dealer has the "perfect car" and that nothing else will do, then you will pay more than will someone who appears to be more blase about it. Again, show enough interest that it is clear that you are willing to buy, but not so much that you lack options elsewhere.
Trust doesn't assure you of anything. Giving trust does not ensure that the other party is trustworthy.
You and I both know what any given brand/model will sell for because of our research. As long as we know that, it becomes a matter of where and who do you trust to make a deal with.
No, there is no definitive price guide that will tell you this. At the very best, you will be able to make an educated guess that will get you into the ballpark, but your guess may be wrong.
And being that there is no single market price, you may find yourself in the position of negotiating at the low end of the range if you negotiate properly. Making the first offer assures you of not finding that range, because you have chosen the bottom without ever getting feedback or cues from the seller that could have led you to a lower price point.
I consider all the ADMs, dealer accesories, etc added to the car's price to be an impediment to me buying a car for the price I know it will sell for. On top of that, the dealers I trust always seem to offer me the best "perks" and service....in addition to a good price.
The easiest way to deal with ADM, mop-and-glo, etc. is to simply ignore them and not pay for them. You set yourself up for overpaying if you focus on window stickers instead of invoice.
And I still haven't seen these perks. I get the same warranty service and such that everyone else is. Maybe if I paid more, the coffee in the lounge would be better?
Again your comparison is poor.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Everybody likes savings, I do too. I always way product's value and try to go for the best as I see it. $300 or even $10 may be worth an effort in right circumstances. My position is store itself may and often is part of the product value, regardless whether it sells groceries, electronics, appliances or cars. It is ones judgement how much it's worth as a part of the package and it is very subjective. That's why you have Walmart and Publix or Best Buy and Sound Advice and people go to all of them.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Brilliant, I realise that every time I have read Bobst's story I should have asked this. No disrespect Bobst, I use a version of your method in buying my cars, but I'd love to hear your answer to this.
I suspect you'll have a virtually vertical climb convincing Nissan to give you a replacement car. Only time will tell whether other examples in that engine family also exhibit your engine's defect, but, my non-expert opinion is that the malady is not widespread. Personally, I'd have no problem accepting a brand new short block under warranty. Whatever do you believe is wrong with the rest of the car that would justify a complete vehicle replacement? In any event, best of luck in your negotiations.
(Unrelated to your situation, but an interesting read, nevertheless, check out the '07 Camry new 6-sp automatic transmission troubles on Edmunds Camry discussions. May provide you with ammunition in your discussions with Nissan.)
I've pointed out just a couple (of many) perks I've received by going to a trustworthy dealer. My afore mentioned Acura salesperson who picks up my car for service and leaves me his "demo" to use.
The other one I mentioned was the '05 Mustang. Many untrustworthy dealers were ordering them for customers. Yet, when the car came in from the factory, these same dealers were adding ADMs to ordered cars because of their popularity and telling the ordering customer to take it or leave it. Me? My dealer sold mine to me for just under invoice on X plan when everyone around him was, at minimum, charging MSRP.
I'd venture to say that I could buy something more mundane, like an '07 Camry, right now...with little more than a phone call to my Toyota dealer. And have it delivered to my doorstep before the end of the day. I'd be confident that the deal done over the phone would be within $100 of the best deal they've cut with anyone in the showroom.
We just differ in the way we approach this. I expect more, and get more from my dealings. A lot of it has to do with building business relationships. Just as much of it has to do with only doing business with trustworthy dealerships.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, though. Do what works for you.
Thats because you got it on the X plan. Thats a set price for employees of Fords suppliers and partners. Once you had that the dealer couldn't add to that price. You got that price not because of your relationship with the dealer but because you qualified for the X plan.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Again, that is an educated guess. I do those very same things, but I refrain from being overconfident about the quality of my information. You might be right, but you might not be, and you will never know unless you negotiate properly.
This strikes me as one of those classic shopping mistakes, which falls right into the dealer's hands.
--Dealerships make the buying process difficult as a matter of design, in an effort to confuse the buyer and wear him down. The classic shell game, which tries to move the buyer away from purchase price, and toward monthly payment, down payment and trade-in value so that the numbers can be toyed with.
--Then, by using the implied threat of a difficult process, the dealership seeks to use good cop methods ("value" and "service") to convince you that you have unlocked the secrets to car sales, but that they can only be obtained from good, trustworthy guys like them.
The whole thing is a classic con. The "nice" dealership appears to be better simply because they refrain from overtly tormenting you, which is offered only as a trade off for your capitulation. In exchange for the no-haggle/where-do-I-sign? attitude, they will dial in the "niceness premium", which they can now easily get away with because you've convinced yourself that you must shop there and nowhere else. (After all, you have a friend in the business who you can trust, right?)
The point is that a tactic that is understood is not a tactic. I don't even know whether my last car had an ADM on the window, because I didn't pay attention to it. The negotiation process never even included a discussion of MSRP or some other inflated number. The contract was free of "errors" because I read it and was prepared to correct it (and given the process of my pre-F&I haggle, the dealer was less inclined to try anything.)
The only intangible that I see with your method is that you are pleased with it, but that doesn't necessarily translate into lower prices, and probably results in higher prices. The desire for a trusting relationship makes a buyer an easy mark for anyone who simply wears a good guy hat and plays the role of someone "who isn't like those other guys," making that position more hazardous than beneficial.
This same type of problem came up on another discussion three or four months back. I believe the owner of a Honda Ody that needed engine replacement(about a month after purchase)was able to get his warranty extended for free to 7 years/100,000 miles. I would go for a new vehilce, and settle for an extended warranty plus some oil changes. Good luck.
If that's not possible, you may have to be content with the car repair. If that's the case, at least then make sure that they give you a free rental, and try to haggle for cash in order to offset the loss in resale value that comes from such significant repairs.
Jipster's suggestion for an extended warranty is also a fine idea. Make sure that such a warranty is transferable so that you can sell the car with this added benefit.
You might also want to check Nissan and Altima forums here and elsewhere, to see whether others are having similar problems. (That engine has been around for awhile, so I suspect that you got unlucky.)
Now, dealership will have to RIP out the old engine and put in a new. That's a lot of tangibles that could go wrong.
No the dealership has to take out the old engine and put in a new one. While its not exactly a cake walk its not quantum physics either.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Replacing an engine is not a trivial repair, and mechanics often get it wrong. It's one thing to change out a starter or an alternator, it's quite another to do a transplant on the drivetrain. I definitely would not be happy if I was in this situation.
At the end of the lease term, you can either buy the car, or hand it back (and pay milage penalties). But you can't really trade it in, because you don't own it. Note that if you trade in a car you still owe money on, the dealership just rolls the amount you owe into your financing deal, thus increasing the cost of your current car by that much. So they pay it off for you, but it's generally not going to be the best deal you can get...
I doubt that he would qualify for a buy back under any state lemon law. Typically for something to qualify it has to be a repeating issue that cannot be resolved.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D