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When I did all my own wrenching on my vehicles I could hardly imagine not having at least one manual in the family. Once I started letting the dealer service the vehicle to make sure the warrentee work was done it started to become less important. When they I discovered that an Automatic transmission was covered under warentee even when that warentee was 100,000 miles I was pleased. But when I then discovered the Clutch in my car wasn't covered even if it went out at 20K because it was placed in the same category as the brake pads I was outraged. If the Automatic was covered why not the clutch plate and disk? I then remembered that a teen age driver had no problem eating up a clutch disk in 20K miles.
Today my vehicles are paid for and warentee work can be done at home or by my mobile mechanic. And in fact I too have gotten a bit lazy in that the last time my oil was changed I had it done. When asked why my response was, "well the mechanic was working on the truck anyway so it was just "easier" to let him do it."
Times and attitudes change. Two years ago I would have a hard time considering anyone a real automotive enthusiast who didn't change their own oil and filter just to be sure they had the right oil and filter. Today I am more interested in knowing if someone can use a navigation system.
I stumbled upon this forum thread back in March of this year. The reason why it interested me so much is because I was in the process of buying a new car (Scion tC) and I was very torn between the automatic and manual transmissions.
I'm 19 years old and it would've been my first manual car. After months of consideration, I stumbled upon this forum and spent several weeks reading every single post, and I still check this thread every day. I've come to recognize and understand the postings from many of the regulars, including yourself, and I've come to learn a lot. However, I've also been reading up on Ferrari forums for the last year as well, and I've come to learn that the traditional 3 pedals are relatively rare on the entire lineup.
The Enzo had a 400 car production run, all F1. The F430 is 80-85% F1, as was the 360 Modena. There are about 12 599GTBs in all of the US that have three pedals, and from what I've seen, dealers aren't accepting new requests for them, either. The 612 Scaglietti is in the same boat. Of course, the 430 Scuderia is also F1-only, just like the Challenge Stradale that preceded it.
My point is that Ferrari, along with other manufacturers of high-end sports cars, are drifting away from the traditional 3 pedals. Sure, Nissan might be messing up their formula of making great sports cars, but they are far from the only ones that are standardizing on computerized gearboxes. Hell, even Honda, a car company loyal to the manual transmission, is doing it with their NSX replacement! And as someone mentioned a while ago, the BMW M5 was SMG only until the US market screamed angrily, getting a (from what I understand) second-rate gearbox in return.
I think this is very unfortunate. I went ahead and bought the manual tC so I could continue my dream of being able to drive any car on the road today. I'm the only person of my generation in my family that can drive a stick shift car, despite the fact that everyone in my parents' generation can. I had to have my brother drive the tC home from the dealership since I'd never driven a manual before and the dealership was in a fairly hilly location. But that night I practiced for an hour in the parking lot, then drove about 16 miles to my uncle's house (which is right next to the dealership) and back, late at night. I drove my car to school the next day, and I drove it every day afterwards, not just because I wanted to, but because I had no other car and I had to. I bought the car at the very end of March and I'm loving every second of it - I have zero regrets.
I do my part to teach all of my friends and cousins, hoping that they too will buy a manual car. They want to learn, and they think it's really cool, but at the end of the day most want the convenience of the automatic more than anything else. I spent a few hours teaching a friend of mine in the same parking lot I learned so he could buy the Subaru WRX he wanted. He actually was doing quite well, but in the end he bought a VW GTI Fahrenheit edition, and it only comes with a DSG.
What really bothers me is that I bought the manual so I could learn, become proficient, and that when the opportunity arises to drive a nice car (a sports car or an exotic like a Ferrari), I wouldn't be just another "dumb American teenager" that can't work the clutch. It's actually a pride thing for me - I spent all this time and effort learning how to row my own gears and now all the cars I dreamed of driving are transitioning to computer-automated clutches!
The sad fact of the matter is that even though a traditional 6 speed is faster than many of the flappy paddle gearboxes right now, the day that 6 speeds are far slower is fast approaching; witness the 60 millisecond shift time of the 430 Scuderia and the FXX. Despite a better launch with a foot-operated clutch, 60ms vs 400-600ms shift times with the best drivers is an eventual loss for the three-pedal car on the track. Granted, this will only matter to those that can push cars to their limits, but add the performance benefit to the convenience factor, and people are transitioning left and right. Even the vast majority of Ferrari diehards that preferred the traditional 6 speed grew to love the F1 more after spending some time with it.
I still much prefer rowing my own gears over flappy paddles, mostly due to reading your posts plus those from boaz47 and redsoxgirl (among others). But I'm not blind to the fact that manuals are becoming rarer and slower, as are people that can drive them in the US (rarer, that is, not slower! :P).
As I mentioned before, I love driving a stick. I spend every moment behind the wheel trying to become smoother and faster. It definitely does make one a better driver, as you have to pay attention and actually learn to drive, not just steer. I can easily control my speed with my right foot without having to ride my brakes to hell, I love the instant power, and I really dig the coolness factor. It snowed here in the DC-Baltimore area I live in last week, and I absolutely loved driving in the snow with a stick. My previous cars, a Mitsubishi Mirage and a Ford Taurus, were absolutely horrible in the same conditions because of unchecked wheelspin and terrible stopping ability. Then again, I also love driving in the snow because I get to experience what it's like driving at 100mph+ on the track while only going 10mph on the street!
People like me, especially people my age, are becoming rarer. Most people don't want to learn how to drive anymore, even such fundamental concepts as countersteering when the rear end slides out (which I was having fun with in the snow, but the people around me were definitely having a lot of trouble since they didn't know how to do it). I'm just worried that I won't be able to enjoy the same things with cars coming out in the next 5-10 years.
Sorry for the long and slightly off-topic first post, but after tracking this thread for the last 9 months, I figured I should at least say something... :shades:
I'm sure I won't be the first to tell you that yes, you are a rare breed - a teenager who understands and appreciates the value of 3 pedals.
Of my three kids, 2 of them (both boys) currently drive stick shift cars, while the third (a girl), attempted to learn to drive stick, got frustrated, then refused to go any further. She drives (and will probably always will drive) an automatic.
Both my wife and I have driven manuals extensively over the years, though at the moment we both have automatics as our daily drivers. Wife will probably not go back to a stick unless it's in something fun and sporty.
The two boys (one is 21 and is in Utah; the other is 18 and in California) will probably drive sticks for as long as they can. The 18 year old, in fact, wants to buy a used WRX with a stick - when he can afford it.
I suspect that there will always be something available with a manual transmission on the market; however, my fear is that it will be basic transportation only - as the costs of CVTs and DSGs and SMGs goes down, it's likely that they will appear in more and more vehicles.
Nothing off topic about that post. I think different things are important to different people. I enjoy manually shifting and it helps me feel connected to the machinery, the road, and the driving experience. I can't imagine not having that connection. I also feel that I am a better driver because I have a manual transmission - it keeps me more involved in driving and less involved with cell phones and mp3 players and cup holders.
It sounds like you have a lot of pride in your new found mastery of a manual transmission and it sounds like you are enjoying the extra level of control it affords. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Drive on and be happy.
They completely screwed up the current Maxima with a bloated Love Boat redesign and a CVT rubber band transmission. Sales have dropped to barely above Enzo levels.
Yes, I can see how 50,000 units a year would be close to "Enzo levels." While the US-built Maxima has lower volume than the previous imported one, it was planned that way. There's only so much room in the plant. And that "rubber band transmission" is a pretty good CVT. While I'd take a manual over anything, I'd probably take a CVT over a regular automatic.
Nissan is screwed up, big time. The GTR may be interesting to some, but I think it's merely an interesting distraction to the train wreck that the company is in.
Except that the company is hardly a "train wreck" or "screwed up." Nissan US sales are UP considerably this year...and in a down market.
Your comparisons are very odd. The 350z being compared to the 240z, which wasn't as safe, low-emission, high-performance, efficient, or well mannered as the new car is. Or comparing a $70k GTR to a $120k BMW or $160k Mercedes-Benz....hmmm.
The problem is that you can get a turbo and it's ugly as sin.
Small engines with superchargers... there's a reason they use them in F1 racing dating back to the 1920s. They offer incredible results without the problems of a turbocharger. Super fun to drive. In the Mercedes Kompressor lineup, V6 power in a 4 cylinder package.
Just do a search for "C200 Kompressor" in your favorite search engine. I'd buy one in a minute if they offered it in the U.S.
(from the U.K.site)
C200K (1,796cc) petrol: 135kW (184PS) at 5,500rpm; 250Nm (184 lb ft) torque at 2,800 – 5,000 rpm.
C200K 5-speed petrol: 0-60 8.5 seconds; top speed 143mph; 35.8mpg combined; CO2 187 g/km
The U.S. equivalent car. $4000 more expensive. 200lbs heavier.
C230 (2,496cc) V6 petrol: 150kW (204PS) at 6,100rpm; 245Nm (181 lb ft) torque at 2,900 – 5,500 rpm.
C230K 7GTRONIC petrol: 0-60 8.3 seconds; top speed 144mph; 31.0mpg combined; CO2 217 g/km
0.2 seconds quicker 0-60, slightly worse handling(RWD car with more weight up front hurts in the twisties), 1mph faster, less torque, $4000 or so more expensive...
Those are U.K. Gallons, btw, so roughly 5mpg U.S. difference to pay as well for a car that's not one bit better, and in many ways worse because it's just wasted metal and materials.
The flip side of course is that at full boil, a supercharger eats a huge percentage of engine output. I read a study a few years ago with three versions of the same engine. The first was a normally aspirated engine that put out a nominal 140 hp normally aspirated. Hooking a supercharger to it bumped the performance to about 220 hp, however, when a turbocharged version was built and operated at the same boost pressure as the supercharger, the output was 280 hp. Said another way, both blown versions of that engine were generating 280 hp, however, the supercharger was drawing some 60 hp directly off the crank shaft, dropping the effective output as a result.
Looked at from a different perspective, my bet is that if the goal was to build an engine that only put out 220 hp, the turbocharged version would be far more reliable as no one component would be as highly stressed as the supercharged version.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Although my '06 Nissan Frontier is in a completely different league than the supercars being discussed, I am thankful that Nissan offers a stick in the Frontier Crew Cab -- a 6-Speed to be exact. It's sweet. Nissan offers the 6-Speed manual in both the 4x2 and 4x4 *Crews* -- the only manufacturer to offer them both. (Toyota offers a 6-Speed stick in its 4x4 Tacoma, but not in the 4x2.) It's what lead me to the Frontier.
I only wish the new Nissan Rogue was offered with a stick.
The B Class engine:
B200 TURBO 193-hp, 2.0-litre, inline-4
If it were as high as you quoted, it'd be a no-brainer, but we're talking about 20hp or so between all three engines.
In any case, I'd rather have it than the V6 that we get in the U.S.
Once he becomes a more proficient driver, I wil lreintroduce the stick, when he can just concentrate on the new aspect.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Spare the rod, and spoil the child...
Okay, I'm kidding.. but, we have to stop it somewhere!!
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Not much chance of that, there's a strong trend in the opposite direction due to the concerns about fuel consumption.
The lag is simply excruciating when one is accustomed to instantaneous throttle response
There's very little throttle lag in modern twin-turbo systems.
'm simply amazed that GM or Ford hasn't come out with an AWD vehicle with high naturally aspirated hp via a V6 or V8 to compete with the Evo or STi. Perhaps I'm in a world of my own.
If you think GM or Ford would have the slightest interest such a niche market you do indeed inhabit a separate planet.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
GM Did... the Caddy CTS-V
LOLOLOL
Sorry, had to do that.
Moderating my own words a bit. Pratt & Whitney was doing lots of experimentation back in the 1930s with forced induction and they found out that a hybrid system worked the best. Put a monster "turbo-centrifugal-supercharger" upstream of the fuel injection system (or carburetor, they used both), and then a small radial/centrifugal supercharger downstream. This arrangement had two significant benefits, 1) it aided in even fuel distribution within the intake charge, and 2) it bumped the pressure of the intake charge just enough to allow “valve overlap” to built into the valve timing, which greatly increased cylinder scavenging.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Really? I didn't know that the CTS-V was AWD. :confuse:
Best Regards,
Shipo
GM Did... the Caddy CTS-V
LOLOLOL
Sorry, had to do that.
I get the joke...but the CTSv is RWD and nearly twice the price of the STi. But there's the 300C which can had AWD. Oh, and the Lincoln MKZ can be hand with 265hp and AWD. But for my favorite Big3 competitor to the STI, you'll have to go back 20 years to the Ford (Europe) RS200.
LOLOL
My wife still has occasional stalls and other mistakes, but they are few. Don't give up, anyone can learn. Almost all of Europe drives stick.
And that's NOT royally screwed up? :confuse: :sick:
So you would have me believe it was part of a well conceived master plan by Nissan to throw all of that positive Maxima brand image developed in the late 80's and 90's into the trash, redesign the Maxima as a land yacht, bring production over from japan to the US and make the car far less desireable, CVT and all, so the lower demand would fit within the limited plant capacity? Can you say, "Snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory"?
Nissan US sales are UP considerably this year...
But profits are still teetering. Nissan unit sales are up 5.1% YTD over 2006. But the quality of those unit sales is going in the toilet, IMO. Maxima and 350Z sales, already significantly depressed, fell another 25% this past year. The Altima, helped by a redesign, posted a 25% increase. But it still doesn't have a prayer of getting a sale from the former Maxima buyers I knew that cross shopped the 4th generation Maxima with the BMW, Audi, Acura and Lexus. And the big winner in the new Nissan line-up: the Versa, up 300%, and with more sales than the Maxima and 350Z combined. Some may think it's just fine that Nissan tossed it's brand image at the $30k+ 3-series level in the trash to be able to compete with the Koreans for the sub-prime $12k market, but I don't.
comparing a $70k GTR to a $120k BMW or $160k Mercedes-Benz....
I started by comparing it to a considerably less expensive Corvette, that weighs 800 lbs less and comes with a 6-speed manual. The GT-R will undoubtedly capture a few sales from the "dare to be different" crowd. But my point is that Nissan lost their real competitive position in the upper middle demographic.
Nissan has become a Kia takeover target. Not the same comapnay that had a trophy case full of car of the year and comparison test trophys with the 4th generation Maxima.
I'd not heard this. Nissan is majority owned by Renault and Kia is owned by Hyundai, making any sort of "takeover" a protracted and complex affair. Oh well. In any case, I'm thankful that Nissan still produces a fine Crew Cab truck with three pedals on the floor.
Or take the car upscale and move the Altima into the position formerly occupied by the Maxima. Sales of the Altima more than make up for the lost Maxima sales. Compare total sales of the old Altima/Maxima with the current Altima/Maxima and there's a net gain. And with the two being built in the US, Nissan doesn't have to worry about currency conversion rates. Thirdly, these increased sales and profitability come in a market that's sliding. Those all sound like positives to me.
But profits are still teetering.
Again, in a DOWN market.
Nissan has become a Kia takeover target.
Another good joke on your part.
Just to be clear, I never did any such thing. I used Ferrari to point to "a real car company" that has a sportscar without a stick. And, like I said, this was simply 1 example.
And, by the way, regardless of the 350z's weight, its a damned fun car to drive. The engine and tranny both blow away my current Honda's setup. I wouldn't know what its like to drive the S2k in comparison because they didn't design it for anyone over 6' tall! (in my estimation. could be 6'1 or 6'2, but it certainly doesn't fit me [6'5"].) Same thing goes for the RX8. But neither of those can hold a candle to the fantastic torque band of the VQ.
I don't care about anything else in the Nissan lineup thanks to FWD (obviously Inifiniti excluded). But you have to give them at least some credit for sticking with manual trannies while Honda has already bailed on their short-lived V6/6mt Accord sedan combo and Toyota wouldn't know a manual tranny these days if they were hit upside the head with it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So just a half hour of frustration pushes her over the edge.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm 6'2" and still have 2-3 inches of headroom. 6'5" is right on the bleeding edge of what is possible, though. The S is made for narrow people, certainly. Anyone near or over 200 pounds need not apply.
I don't know how the iDrive system works on BMW but with the things we can get as options in other cars I don't see where you have time to shift.
Lets face it, manuals are for a small minority of drivers that see driving as something more or less than a task to accomplish when getting from point A to point B. The manufacturers have tapped into this mindset and the consumer has embraced it beyond the manufacturers wildest dreams. Microsoft spent years fighting the government for calling them a monopoly when they had 96 percent of the operating systems. How close is the automatic to those numbers?
No one that I know would EVER consider the 2008 Altima occupying a similar position relative to the competition as the 1995 Maxima did. Not even remotely close. The current Altima doesn't even win an Edmunds comparison test against the Honda Accord. Go back and read reviews of the Maxima and they will often compare it to BMW, Audi, Acura, etc. Now it is more likely to be compared to a Buick. And the Altima isn't going to make it's way into too many law firm parking lots, unless it's the secretary's spot.
I don't have historical sales figures from 10-12 years ago to challenge your claim that Altima sales have more than made up for lost Maxima sales in terms of total units sold. But I would still contend that the quality of sales matter. GM outsells Porsche by about a 50 to 1 in units, but the former is on the brink of bankruptcy and the other is the most profitable car company on the planet in terms of profit margins. Nissan may be setting year after year sales records, but it's profitability has been a roller coaster as of late, compared to Honda, Toyota, BMW.
My point is that Nissan is occasionally cited as an example of where the future of the manual transmission is going, with their employment of the CVT in the Maxima. In my opinion, if the Maxima is going to be used as a barometer for anything, it should be that pissing away brand loyalty and a sporting image is just plain stupid. There was an interesting, and not very flattering, aticle in the WSJ several weeks ago that essentially indicated Nissan was going downscale to compete with Korea because they had lost much of their brand loyalty at the higher demographic levels.
So, unfortunately, it's not a joke.
Realistically, I will probably wait for a turbo-diesel. I have to believe that with the run-up in fuel prices, and the prospect of the Democratic congress's tightening of CAFE standards, we will be seeing more diesel options. I just hope the come with a manual tranny!
james
I do not disagree with the statement you make. However, there are still those of us (as you allude to later in your post) that see a real difference between "riding" and "driving". So, do I see driving as a "task?" Nope. And yes, there are times that I shut off all the stuff - the radio, cell phone etc etc, and just enjoy.... the drive!
For what it's worth, every one of those options you described in your friend's Denali are on my Porsche 911S (and TL 6-speed) Plus a few you didn't mention.
I don't see where you have time to shift.
If anyone allows themselves to be so distracted the technogadgets in a car that they "don't have time to shift", their license should be immediately revoked and they should be required to walk, rather than be a danger to others. PERIOD.
Microsoft spent years fighting the government for calling them a monopoly when they had 96 percent of the operating systems. How close is the automatic to those numbers?
In the last 3 years, Microsoft stock is up 35% +/-. If you invested enough money to buy a CVT Maxima in Microsoft stock 3 years ago, you'd have a little more than what a CVT Maxima runs today. Dell stock is down 50% during that time. Your 2004 Maxima CVT fund would now be worht less than a Sentra. Apple stock is up 500% over the same period. Your fund would now be worth the same as a Ferrari 430, with a 6-speed manual, of course.
Having a near monopoly or catering to the mass market is not necessarily a formula for success.
You might be like some on here and still be extolling the virtues of the clutch and virtuousness of those who use them, or you might be like me by then and see it as not too different from knowing how to operate a telephone with a rotary dial
yeah, the top was just against the top of my head, but my knees were pressed firmly against the center console and door. Not a position I want to be in for 2 hours a day. I already have that driving position in my Alfa, and no way would that be my daily driver, nor would I drive it more than 45 minutes at a time (even that is pushing it).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And drudgery caused the demise.
Last manual I had was an 84 Prelude that I drove to 195K. Never had a problem with trans or clutch. It was a nice FWD that was fun to drive in the twisties from time-to-time, but I do not miss stop-and-go traffic with it during rush hours on the interstate or suburban roads.
Have had many manual trans cars in past and they of course can provide more control "if" one has the roads to drive on for fun and actually does so from time-to-time. A manual trans for commuting, city/suburban driving is a chore.
Do not think that there are many people who drive for pleasure on country/back roads. This is the primary place where one could enjoy a manual trans mated to a well balanced car. For vast, vast majority of drivers, auto trans is logical.
I disagree. Sure an AT makes more sense for drivers with stop & go commutes but there are still plenty of people who don't live in big city suburbia and therefore don't have to put up with gridlocked roads.
-Frank
Do not think that there are many people who drive for pleasure on country/back roads. This is the primary place where one could enjoy a manual trans mated to a well balanced car. For vast, vast majority of drivers, auto trans is logical.
OK... I guess the fact that manual trannies are very common in the rest of the world means little....
I commute using a manual, and I am not sure how much actual "work" is involved in the "chore"... frankly, if you space your traffic, plan a little, you don't have to shift a whole lot - same way you depress the brake when you are getting close to another car, you depress the other pedal to the left.
I've done no polling, however there are still people who drive for pleasure... convertible sales, (older) Miata sales, the entire existence of Alfa Romeo
Heavy traffic is tedious no matter what kind of transmission you have. Besides, I can't see how moving your left leg a bit and moving your right hand 2" on the gear knob is that much work. Unless, of course, first gear tops out at 5-10mph like on some of the older cars I've seen, in which case I would be hating it, too.
On a car with a light clutch (and clutches seem to be getting lighter on modern cars), gridlock traffic is a breeze. For me at least, moving my entire left leg is a lot more natural than constantly rotating my right foot between the brake and the accelerator. Nine months and over 13,000 miles after I bought my first manual car, I've had to deal with a slightly cramped calf in my right leg at least once every week in heavy traffic, but I've never had any pain in my left leg.
Also, based on my informal parking lot surveys (yes, I'm obsessed enough that I do walk around parking lots peeking inside the car windows every once in a while!) there are a surprisingly large number of people that seem to agree that shifting your own gears isn't too difficult in traffic.
But to be fair, there are a few more benefits than plain ol' fun to the manual transmission compared to standard torque-converter automatics. More than rotary dial vs touchtone phones, that is. :P
I have plenty. My right leg rests lightly against the pad on the side of the transmission tunnel, and my left knee leans slightly on the door panel when I feel like being lazy. Narrowness is the key. I have a body type that wouldn't be out of place in an El Greco painting.
I do too. Oh wait, no I don't, both of our vehicles (05 & 07) are manuals (3 if you count the Ninja).
Some even have only automatics so the era of the old fashioned manual is coming to an end.
I think this is from the Boaz school of sky-is-falling. I think sticks have been in the minority since the early 90s. I haven't had any trouble finding mainstream vehicles with manual transmissions. Are they as common as they once were? Perhaps not, but cars certainly aren't getting a whole lot better in general either.
The main culprit in the decline (not demise) of the manual is the blubbering of the American vehicle fleet. Manuals have been rare in big domestic barges since at least the '50s, and as the offerings of the Japanese players close in on the ignominy of that type, the prevalence of the manual in their offerings declines apace.
Don't forget that the rotary dial forces you to pay more attention to you're dialing. I can't tell you the number of mistakes people make on the phone that could've been easily avoided if they simply learned how to dial the manual way. Touchtone phones may be more convenient, but they're for the modern, lazy American.
Real dialers use rotaries.
I was loading a couple of bags of water softener salt into the front trunk of my 911 while this was going on and could barely keep from laughing. Then the younger girl looked over and commented, "cool car". To which the dad said "and that's why you are going to learn how to drive a stick shift, too.", giving me the thumbs up.
It wasn't until I was on the road that the connection sunk in.
So boaz, when in the heck are the California greenies going to get off their butts and ban leaf blowers?