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Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave



  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Man...I'm sorry to hear it.

    The steering colum does actually pivot, it's just the way the shroud is designed, you can't see it. I know when it's at it's lowest position, the top of the steering wheel is away from the face of the dash. When it's at it's highest point, the top of the steering wheel is closer. You can also see the angle of the wheel change as it goes up too. When it's down, it's almost verticle.

    Good luck.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    My definition of tilt is that you have a single fixed pivot point and the steering wheel should move in a semi-circular arc without moving the pivot point. In the Outlook, the pivot point isn't stationary inside the dash so to speak. The steering wheel moves up and down as does the pivot point. The arc or angle of the wheel never changes, it just slides up and down. If it actually tilted, the

    The new Outlook and various other GM vehicles are now using the cheaper system of tilt wheel column used in the japanese vehicles. The pivot point is much further forward (near firewall) than the old Saginaw Tilt Wheel from the past (pivot located just forward of wheel). As you say it is really meant to be set in the driving position and left there. The Saginaw system was meant to be moved easily up and out of the way when exiting the vehicle.

    Why is the japanese way cheaper? Lot cheaper to manufacture and also much easier to design w/o worrying about column accordianing. (chest intrusion)
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Makes sense to me!
  • I have two Japanese vehicles (Nissan and Honda,) and had an issue with the Outlook steering-wheel angle that was new to me: it was low, even at its highest setting.

    I had to lower the seat more than I would like to and tilt the wheel all the way up.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Thats different than the original issue started here. I have not noticed it not going high enough but I will check and see if it is at the highest setting now for me. I am pretty sure my seat is all the way up. But I am only 5'10".

    I do know I can put it down so far that the gages are actually above the top of the rim!! Did that on a long trip to give me a slightly different hand to wheel orientation. Just playing around.
  • Last summer, I traded my trusty Saab station wagon for a Jeep Grand Cherokee (finally succumbing to the SUV craze) and developed such bad hip and back pain on my right side (the "driving leg" side) that after 2.5 months, I went back to another Saab wagon and lost a ton of $$$$ in the process. I'm short, the pedals sat off to the left and the seats sat high in the Jeep. Even with adjustable pedals, I couldn't make the car work for me. In shopping many vehicles before running back to Saab, one dealer said to me of my plight "sometimes, a car just doesn't fit you." And he was right. Sad part is, my hip never did fully recover from the contorting I had to do reaching the brake pedal in that stupid Jeep. If you're in pain in your vehicle, and you know it's the car, get out of it! Good luck!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Well I looked and yes, the wheel is up as high as it goes. But it was the perfect position for me. Seat was all the way up to. So if a 6'2" person had the seat all the way up, the wheel would probably be slightly blocking the top of gages. Of course I would think the seat could be lowered for that tall of a person but with all that headroom and the higher door sills they may put the seat all the way up.
  • Just curious! When did your pain start? Mine started after a 1.5 hour trip 3 days after purchase. Decided a seat adjustment would take care of it but it never did. Never experienced it during the test drives. I'm fairly certain I would have as I feel it the instant I climb in now. Spent 10 days in Miami in May driving a rental and had no problems. Came home, jumped behind the wheel of the Outlook, never got out of the neighborhood before I started feeling that characteristic twinge of hip and back pain.

    I really would like to drive the vehicle, but wouldn't hesitate to get rid of it if I wasn't going to take a bath in trade. So much for value!! Looks like your dealer's adage, "Sometimes, a car just doesn't fit you" just went up by one!!!
  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    Based on this board, this car gives me an uneasy feeling.

    - Safety problems with rear crash data

    - Poor rear visibility

    - Seat problems

    - Fixed Pricing!!!

    I think I will pass.
  • - Safety problems with rear crash data
    As near as I could tell, it has not been tested yet in a crash-test setting. The only test that was done was an isolated test on the headrest. That is not very conclusive to me.

    - Poor rear visibility
    I think it is a symptom of the size and type of vehicle it is. You would have the same problems from a CX-9, big SUV, minivan or other large vehicles that sit high off the ground.

    - Seat problems
    One person. Pretty much everyone else has not had a problem. I think they are comfy.

    - Fixed Pricing!!!
    Yes, because it is a Saturn. If you like to haggle you can get an Acadia or Enclave. They are the same as the Outlook for the most part.

    I think I will pass.
    That is up to you, but you will not find a CUV with more cargo space. The only other alternative is a minivan or big SUV.
  • I agree, most of these sins are shared by other CUVs, but the fixed pricing is what gets me.

    Of course one can always go and buy something else, but in our area the situation is a bit curious. The Buick dealer is right across the street from the Saturn dealer, and very soon, the Enclaves will enter the rebate/haggling zone, offering a supposedly upscale version of the Outlook at a lower price.

    As for the rear crash data, I don't think manufacturers actually rear end their cars, but only measure the headrests and simulate the effects of a rear collision putting the front seats on a sled. Some claim that the lambdas fared so poorly on the measurement that no one bothered to put the seats on a sled, but I could not find any concrete information about it.

    As for facts regarding a supposed Outlook deficiency, the 2nd and 3rd row headrests are not adjustable.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557're basing your conclusion on the postings of one or two people???

    Do yourself a favor and go test drive one of the Lambda vehicles for yourself to see if you have any issues with it.

    I truly don't think the rear visibility is poor, it's just a vehicle that sits up higher off the ground. If you consider it to be bad in one of these, what do you think a full sized SUV would be like? Honestly, it's nothing a back up camera couldn't fix. Personally...I don't have an issue with the rear visibility.

    To be specific, there are no problems with the seats themselves. It's more an issue of anatomy for the drivers.

    Fixed pricing??? Where have you been, that's been Saturns niche since day 1. If you want to haggle the price, then go after the Acadia or Enclave, or any of the other CUV's on the market if you're looking for one.
  • Where have you been, that's been Saturns niche since day 1.

    How did they ever move things like the Ion and the Relay? $5K factory rebates? :blush:
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    If you want to haggle the price

    Or take a trade-in with you.
  • Hmmmm....are you implying that Saturn may overestimate your trade in for slow selling vehicles?
  • My wife and I took an Enclave test drive today---nice. Checked the sticker afterward----approx. $37K. But there was a hand written add-on for 'market conditions'---$4,000.
    This dealer is in Houston. No, thanks.
  • Give it 6 months - if you can - otherwise you are going to lose those 4k and some more.
  • That is why I think that a comparably equipped Outlook is probably the better deal right now in some areas. The no-haggle plus the $1,000 incentive probably makes it a better deal.
  • My wife and I have noticed a couple of changes in the design of front seats since we bought our Suburban in 2000. First, the seat cushions seem to be getting shorter, front-to-back, which causes pressure points mid-thigh. Second, and most critical to us, is the fact that manufacturers seem to think that you can never have enough lumbar support. We are 40 and 41, and have never had a problem with any seats in any cars we have owned or driven. However, starting with a Honda Odyssey we bought new in January '06, we have noticed the two problems mentioned above. The Odyssey's seats caused my wife so much pain, that we had to get rid of it after 2 months. We did not take an extended test drive since we had never experienced this problem in the past. The only seats that we didn't have any lumbar issues with were in an '06 Caravan and the '06 Hyundai's (Sonata, Azera, Entourage). Heck, we rented a Grand Marquis for a couple of days, thinking the seats would be like a big comfy couch (you know, for all of the old people :) ). It was the worst of the bunch, and we returned it early.

    Is there, indeed, an industry-wide move to make auto seats more orthopedically 'correct'? Is our posture so bad that these 'correct' seats cause us more harm then good?

    We are now in an '07 Outlook. I'm still not thrilled with the lumbar support, as it's only the 'least-bad' of everything we looked at that met our needs. I think the only saving grace is the fact that the Outlook lets you move the lumbar up and down, as well as in and out. I just wish it would move in a little more.

    Prior to the last 18 months, I had never given any thoughts to seats. Now, I think about it every time I drive. I'd really like my Suburban back, even with the high gas prices. (and yes, we did look at new Suburbans - they weren't nearly as comfortable or roomy as our 2000, IMO).

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    are you implying that Saturn may overestimate your trade in for slow selling vehicles

    Never tried it, but why not? Shouldn't be too hard to finagle the numbers to bump up the value of your creampuff.
  • It took just under a week to start noticing my hip/back problem with the Jeep GC. At first, I thought maybe I needed steprails to help me get in and out, so I purchased some. No help. I soon realized it was a combo of me being short, the seat sitting high, and the pedals sitting slightly to the left of the very wide center console. Funny part is, I had driven a Grand Cherokee as a loaner a few months earlier and had it for about 4 days with no problems -- in fact that's what made me start looking at Jeeps. And since nobody lets you take a week-long test drive, what can you do? I returned to Saab because i think their seats are about the most comfy out there. Especially if you can get the ventilated seats with the cooling fans --oh my God! I had those in my old saab, didn't get them with this new one and boy do I miss 'em! Listen though, lose the money, get outta your pain machine, maybe find a nice pre-owned more traditional car, where you don't have to deal with high seating positions. I was literally in tears because I tried to tough it out in the Jeep for those 2.5 months. It's not worth it!
  • I agree with you on the shorter seat bottoms. Terribly unsupportive. And I'm only 5ft 2in! Or, if they give you decent front seats, the back seat is really short, I guess to give you the illusion of legroom. Based on my own experience, I'm sticking with station wagons. I've had a Merc Sable and now two Saab 9-5s. I get the cargo room I need, and I have small family (hubby, son and dog), which helps. And i don't have to feel guilty about gas mileage or depleting the ozone! : )
  • That would be even more interesting considering that the trade-in value is discounted from the sales tax. Sweeeet :-)
  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    Sorry, I do not agree. Bottom line: Market conditions pricing is just a scam. If you fall for it, then shame on you! If you walk away, the dealers will not employ this insulting tactic, but you cannot really blame them because as we all know there plenty of suckers born every minute.

    In my opinion, the no-haggle price is also another scam. It is like paying full MSRP (and in many cases more) for a car. It reminds me of a saying my Grandmother always told me when I wanted to purchase something 'a f--l and his money will soon part!'

    For me, the no-haggle price combined with the other issues (although not completely substantiated by the current sample size) associated with the Outlook make this car a poorer value when compared to other cars in this class. I like GM's idea (it is a nice car), but when you compare price, safety, design, etc.. Mazda and Hyundai seem to be a better overall value. There seems to be a general consensus among automotive experts to substantiate this claim.

    To each their own, that is what makes this country a great place. Good luck!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    NOt everyone enjoys/will like to negotiate a price with a salesperson. Hence Saturn. If you think the price is too high then walk away and go to a GMC store. Easy as that. If Saturn does not sell enough of a product and they feelit is due to price it will be adjusted. So far I have not heard of any price adjustments at Saturn (Did they drop prices with the rest of GM 3 years ago when GM cut incentives?).
  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    There is your first mistake, negotiate with a salesperson. You need to have some understanding of the business before you walk on the dealer's lot.

    I fully understand that no one really enjoys dealing with a car dealership over the price of a car.

    On the other hand, you pay a high premium for the no-haggle deal.

    Additionally, Saturn uses incentives to sell their cars. Current the Outlook XE has a $1K allowance. I have seen postings claiming that the Outlook will lower its price because of direct competition with GMC. We will see.

    Good luck!
  • I agree about the seats. Many of them are too short, and offer poor thigh support for that reason. That was my impression of the Honda Odyssey that I drove.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    There is your first mistake, negotiate with a salesperson. You need to have some understanding of the business before you walk on the dealer's lot.

    I think I know the business pretty well. Like I said many potential customers do not want anything to do with negotiating a deal. So Saturn has a business plan that offers them a place to go. I have never needed to negotiate for a new vehicle in my life since I always bought with a discount since I was 21. :blush: Ahyway in 8 months I should have my enclave and cannot wait!
  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    So you are a car salesperson that is collecting intelligence on us common folk. Then you know first hand what a great deal the no-hassle price is for the dealership.

    I understand that the Enclave is a very nice car. Once the initial demand for this car decreases, some good deals should be available in 8 months.

    I enjoyed our chat. Good Luck.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Not a carsalesperson but have worked with the dealerships.

    understand that the Enclave is a very nice car. Once the initial demand for this car decreases, some good deals should be available in 8 months.

    As far as future deals on Enclave it certainly is a good question.

    The Acadia has been out about 10 months and there surely is no heavy discounting yet. In fact what are people getting off MSRP on these? In 8 months it is very possible though that GM will have caught up to demand with the Lamdas. They are putting in a 3rd shift at Lansing. A lot has to do with two things though. What gas prices will do and, more importantly, our economy. If it goes further into the tank look for some great deals. If gas prices stay the same look for more folks moving from SUV's to CUV's like the Lamdas. If gas prices go down SUV's will sell again. If they go way up even the CUV's will have problems.
This discussion has been closed.