Does that mean the LaCrosse will be a clone of the Aura?
Actually GM is getting out of the cloning business. Sure there are a couple that come to mind (equinox/Torrent and trucks) but overall most would not realize that the Malibu and G6 share architectures. Have not seen the new LaCrosse styling but I would look for styling lines along the Enclave. Beautiful flowing lines.
What I was getting at was that they are on the same platform. I think that the Enclave is to go into production as a large crossover vehicle and is said to be Buick last hope for recovery.
When GM developed the Aurora platform in 1995, the target body structure was the Mercedes E-class. Now, I do not think that GM had all the refinements that Mercedes builds in, but the basic strength is there. I have a Cadillac Seville from the 2002 model year, which is also an Aurora platform body, since the 1998 model year. I think that it is a fairly solid body structure.
The Velite concept was to be built on the Zeta platform. The Zeta platform that was in the development stage when the concept was built is no longer expected to become a global platform, or at least will not become a North American platform, as was intended. So the Velite is probably dead. What we will get instead is a lambda platform Enclave.
I think that the Enclave is to go into production as a large crossover vehicle and is said to be Buick last hope for recovery.
The new Lucerne is selling well. It is up 35% over the Park and LeSabre in January from 2005 January. And those old cars were heavy fleet. LaCrosse is holding it's volume but is selling at much higher ATP's than the old Century/Regal. Things are not great but Buick is doing OK.
I am sure that Mercedes has improved the E-class. GM has also improved the Aurora body design as other models moved onto the body design.
A basic problem in evaluating body designs is that the reports all say that the new design is an improvment over the old design by so & so much %. They (manufacturers) only release relative values instead of saying what the actual values are. GM said that the Aurora body had a vibration frequency of 25 hertz compared to the old bodies (1994 Oldsmobile 98 for example) value of 15 hertz. The E-class Mercedes was said to have the same 25 hertz frequency. Now the frequency may be up to 50 hertz??? :surprise: :P
The new Lucerne is selling well. It is up 35% over the Park and LeSabre in January from 2005 January
Is there any fleet sales numbers available for the Lucerne? I saw a Lucerne CXL yesterday with a very old guy behind the wheel and it had an Enterprise sticker on the back, apparently they are hitting the rental lots (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). It certainly has an upscale look to it. I can honestly say, I like the looks of the Lucerne over an Avalon.
So I decided to check out the local GM dealership at lunch yesterday. Why not? Not like there's anything else to do for an hour where I work...
The Chevrolet dealership - OMG. The cars were just sheets of plastic inside. Not even contoured, broken up, or even with a little vinyl or cloth on them. Just sheets of plastic. Thin plastic as well. Okay, REALLY COST CUTTING THIN. The leather shifter boot on their Cobalt SS was paper-thin. Thinner than a CD thin.
The HHR they had - 16K car. 8K in options. The Cobalt LS? 16,200 for one with automatic and nromal features. The Honda Civic? About the same price.
The Aveo? 14.5K. No, not kidding 14,500. The Honda Fit will sell for the same price, more or less.
In short, GM is pricing their cars with too many options and too high compared to the competition. Compare a Cobalt to the new Civic. GM deserves to die if they make junk like this. We, as consumer, deserve better.
Even the Chrysler dealership right next door had better vehicles. Just sad how thin and plasticky and ticky-tacky GM has become.
Side note - one exception... the PT Cruiser had the worst seats I've ever sat in, bar none. Dear lord they almost as bad as the seats in my Jr. High auditorium(you know the type - wood/metal with no padding.
I went over to the Saab dealership for a test-drive and some therapy. At least there's one company GM hasn't destroyed yet.
So, is this over 40 based on the city or highway number. Based on the combined, adjusted number, only the VW diesels manage besides a couple of hybrids.
I was just noticing it was odd they benchmarked a very old platform. That would have been the W124 platform for MB, since there has been the W210 and now the W211 for the E.
I've really never seen any stats on body vibration like that...I don't know if I know what it is all about save for something like rigidity.
Worked at Design Staff. Just to set the record straight we have some very good Designers coming up with great concepts. Unfortunately, the powers to be say either yae or nae. They have made bad calls 80 % of the time. I am not being cynical.....we just need someone with some balls.....who is willing to put them on the line and face the consequences.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20709.shtml Looks like Honda dropped the model this year. Oh well, it actually got MORE MPG than listed. Some people got closer to 50MPG and certainly the 44MPG was easy to do -- highway. The average is 39. Which I am sure can be bested. Looks like it made the hybrid not such a great buy, so it is gone.
Wrong. The PT Cruiser is noted as have very supportive and comfortable seats in front, unless you mean the back seats. I don't sit in the back - too hard to steer from that position. I own a 2005. Maybe they changed?
I haven't spent more than maybe 10 minutes in the seat of one, so I can't judge long-term, but I didn't really have anything to complain about. I prefer the PT to the HHR, because it just doesn't seem as claustrophobic inside. I think the HHR actually IS a bit bigger inside, but the smallish windows, thick pillars, and styling in general make it feel tighter.
And I know this is picking nits, as they're both slathered in hard plastic, but I prefer the grain of the PT Cruiser, which is kind of "elephant" for lack of a better word, to the HHR, which is more like "goosepimples"! :P
Still, it's like 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. I think they're both decent vehicles in their own right. If forced to choose, I don't think there's really a clear-cut winner.
To the poster who feels the Cobalt is a step above the Cavalier, I have to say that both vehicles are cheapo rides that satisfy the low end-low quality-low expectations portion of the consumer market. Slapping a "SS" badge on one don't change its DNA either. The smart thing to do would be to put that same amount of money into a used Honda.Better built,better resale. The Cobalt is a clump of dirt, low quality dirt, same as the Cavalier.
I had to trace back the above comment quite a ways back in time. Yes Cobalt is outselling the Corolla in january. 17,513 Cobalts to 15,600 Corollas. Will it continue? Good question. January was the first month of the new pricing but the ATP is about the same as before since the incentives were lowered.
How can some of you say that the future Pontiac G8 and 2007 Cadillac CTS and CTS-V (which haven't been released yet) can't or won't compete with Mercedes Benz or BMW ????
BTW-The 2006 STS-V held it own against the CLS55-AMG. I guess if you already have you mine made up (like many of you do) on who's the winner based on name recognition then Cadillac or a GM car is defeated before the comparison gets started. :confuse:
Your perception of GM is not totally correct. You take the Corvette for exapmple. The corvette is a great piece of engineering.Imagine, a 400 hp sports car that can get 28 mpg on the highway! Who else can make such a car for the price? Nobody!! That not to mention countless of other makes that has great engineering. Also check out GM's new two mode transmission that will be used on the soon to be introduce hybrids. If you know anything about mechanics, you will agree that is the way to go. That transmission will become the standard wait and see. In the meantime, good luck with you Japanese car!!
Why should the UAW "give up" more stuff ???? The workers already gave back 15 Billion dollars over "X" number of years in health insurance premiums. They now have a co-pay insurance plan and it also affects the "on a budget" retirees like my grandfather. What's he suppose to do if they take more ???? Turn off the heat and eat spam ????
Seriously why can't Rick Wagoner and the overpaid board of executives who's made/make tens of millions take another pay cut instead of it always being pushed upon the workers who are getting squeezed and are actually feel real affects. Hell they are laying off 30,000 workers at GM and you want more from the UAW when Rick is still making $1.1 million not including stock options and bonuses ?????
Is Uncle Rick who is in control of the biggest automotive company in the world and who is responsible for making the company a profit with products the american people desire and want to own (WHO'S FAILED) worth that kind of change ????? I like I've said before the easy answer is to squeeze the low man and is a excepted practice in this country. When leadership fails the low man is the scapegoat.
Why not lay-off Rick Wagoner and the rest of the idiots who've taken the biggest and greatest company "the world has ever known" and run it into the ground and rape it's wealth because of greed.
I do believe GM could pay it's UAW workers very well if not better than they are now, if only GM from a very long time ago (70's-on) would of been managed by people with a "vision" of long-term buisness success strategy like Toyota.
The LS-2 V-8 your talking about will soon get Displacement On Demand to shoot that HWY 28 mpg into the mid 30's. BTW- The new 2 stage hybrid system that was co-developed by GM, Diamler Chrysler, BMW, will be proven to be the best fuel efficient hybrid system on the market for years to come until Toyota and Honda can improve upon it. I gurantee they will be purchasing one to "break down" the American and German Engineering "brain trust". :P
However since it doesn't say "synergy" it will be overlooked by the brainwashed public. :mad:
You list two examples. The Corvette is a greay buy and a pretty fine car for the most part, but it does not enable GM to lead the world. Regarding the transmission, I'll have to see it to believe it, and that goes for those supposed 30mpg hybrids as a whole.
I'll await the "countless" examples of other great engineering. Not good or sound engineering mind you...but great...
I own an odd-couple pair of Mercedes, never have had a Japanese car apart from the 510 I had for a few weeks.
I do think - as do most people - that the UAW has a few excesses. Job banks, most of all. I'd also like to see them ease up on how inflexible workers are. In construction too, unions dictate what a guy can and can't do, and cause a lot of redundancy that way.
If GM really is at risk of Death, everyone's gonna have to sacrifice.
I do think - as do most people - that the UAW has a few excesses. Job banks, most of all.
Job Banks are no different than extra paper pushers the company keeps employed because they know Bob Lutz, Rick Wagoner, Jack Smith, J.T. Battenburg III, or some other big-wig. Our company does the exact thing and keeps excess people who know someone or have dirt on someone. Yes the perfectly ran company would have none of these issues. It's not all the UAW's fault like many are protraying because of there anti-union feelings.
I'd also like to see them ease up on how inflexible workers are. In construction too, unions dictate what a guy can and can't do, and cause a lot of redundancy that way.
Back in the 80's a guy did one job only, today some do as many as 3. Dad sometimes doesn't get to take a lunch break because he is so busy.
If GM really is at risk of Death, everyone's gonna have to sacrifice.
Very true. But the question is has the top sacrificed enough ???? Delphi's Top 600 paid themselves $980 million dollars in bonus cash. Delphi CEO-Steve Miller got a 3 million dollar bonus. To the eyes of the UAW members at Delphi that's not sacrifice.
Rick Wagoner would be more convincing if he would work for a dollar or up to $250,000 salary. The guy was making more than a 1 million dollar salary back when he was V.P. of North American Operations when my grand father still worked there back in 92-93. How rich do you think he is ????
The most sacrifice should come from the already rich guys calling the shots. They can actually afford it.
he new 2 stage hybrid system that was co-developed by GM, Diamler Chrysler, BMW, will be proven to be the best fuel efficient hybrid system on the market for years to come until Toyota and Honda can improve upon it.
Toyota and Honda has nothing to prove when in comes to hybrids becuase they have been mass producing them for well over a five years now, some models are into second re-design already.
However johny-come-lately of hybrids: GM, Diamler Chrysler, BMW has everything prove. Their single propulsion vehicles have not been exactly hardly paragons on reliability. You don't really need to buy a gas-electric S-class to get stranded on the highway due to electronics failure, a gasoline only version will do just fine; will GM hybrid pickups have special circuits to compensate for piston slap
So who thinks hybrid Cobalt will deliver better gas mileage than a non-hybrid corolla?
So, is this over 40 based on the city or highway number. Based on the combined, adjusted number, only the VW diesels manage besides a couple of hybrids.
Considering Diesel cost more than premium gas where I live, it hardly a bargain. An unscheduled stop for repair at VW dealership is all it takes to offset savings from driving a TDI for one year.
Of course, all auto makers probably dissect and analyze each others' products.
However since it doesn't say "synergy" it will be overlooked by the brainwashed public.
The Prius won a 2004 award for technical excellence from the same Wired magazine quoted above. Now suppose GM's yet to be produced hybrid doesn't win similar accolades in the future--my question to you "media conspiracy" theorists out there is, why not? Or more precisely, why would the media deliberately overlook or ignore GM's offerings? What's in it for the media to malign GM/Ford/DC? What's their motivation? :confuse:
Rocky, you make some very good points. It will be interesting to see how things play out with Delphi and how it affects other car manufactures.
In my job, I never like it when someone had the attitude, "Be reasonable. Do it my way." It sounds like that is what management is saying to the UAW - "Be reasonable. Take a lower salary."
If management really cared about the company, they would take a much lower salary themselves.
However, I do not believe George W, who I think is a wonderful president, should get involved. The best way to find a realistic solution is to let the free market have its way.
The 2006 STS-V held it own against the CLS55-AMG. I guess if you already have you mine made up
Rock,
You basically said the CTS-V would eat an M5 for lunch. Quite different from holding it's own.
I haven't read anything regarding the G8 or '07 CTS-V. To date, GM (along with everyone else) has come up short when trying to out "BMW" BMW. Why will 2007 be any different? GM might be able to generate the numbers, but it's the "feel" that nobody has been able to recreate.
The only engine GM currently has that could beat the v-10 in the M5 is the LS7 and I'd be shocked it if makes it's way into a CTS-V. The supercharged Northstar can't beat it, unless they revise it for more power. I just looked in this months MT and the test numbers from the XLR-V don't beat the M5 they tested in the same issue and the XLR-V weighs less.
Quite frankly, a CTS-V competes on a different level due to the price point. It's kind of like comparing a vette to a 911. Performance is similar, but you pay for the enhanced tactile feel and driving experience in a 911. Before you flame away, I'm not taking anything away from a Corvette, it's a hell of a sports car.
From that article about teardowns: *** A teardown of the 2004 Prius two years ago helped sour GM on hybrid technology. The company is slowly rolling out hybrid trucks and buses, but it's focusing its innovation efforts on fuel cells. *** Translation: OMG, there's no way we can build a car like this, so screw it.
Lol. It's been fun, but GM - time to call it a day. As for the hybrid they are developing, unless it is either a true hybrid in that the car is electric with an onboard generator or uses a planetary gear assembly in the CVT, it's junk. A CVT with steps and hooked up to a torque converter becomes a $3000 repair bill with the lifespan of an automatic. All of the ones that I have seen also are made to be replaced as a single unit, so you can't actually fix it or rebuild it. (note - the Prius is the exception - it uses a proper CVT)
You've got to be joking when you say Asians rule when it comes to electronics.Lets get the facts straight.We Americans invent and they manufacture our inventions. Why? Because it is cheaper for companies like IBM to have it manufactured there. Name me some of the great things they've invented and I'll name you a hundred for everyone you name! Take for example, the new chip that IBM has invented recently- yesterdays news. Where do you think this computer chip will be manufactured -- in Japan!! Who takes credit for it? The Asians. It seems we can not give ourself credit for anything these days. We treat the Japanese like they can not do anything wrong. In fact,they just look at our mistakes and capitulates on them. Your an example of this.
All you guys are so excitedly calling the end of BMWs dominance based on a couple of GM's 2007 models. What about the current models? "The only problem with the CTS-V is a little wheel hop off the line". Is this a $50,000 sport sedan or a jacked up 69 Nova? The power numbers look great on paper but it's just not the same when you drive it. Anyone that's driven a GTO and a 3 side by side will know what I mean.
They were supposed to do the job and they haven't and the Malibu/G6 haven't done a thing to dent the Camcord.
The General keeps on coming out with new models and promising "This is the new GM" and then the next year they're like "We know that the Malibu fell short but just wait till you see the Cobalt. This is the new GM".
I also think that most of you guys are overestimating the allure of RWD. The majority of Camcords and Altimas roll off the lot the 4 bangers. The front drive layout has some inherent advantages in traction and interior room that a rear drive can't match. Chrysler has done very well with the 300 family, but new entrants are only going to cut into that pie. I think that for a mid-market car, most people prefer front drive.
The GM two mode transmission will be a true hybrid. It will provide power by batteries only or by engine only or both. GM holds 60 patents on this. GM is sharing this technology with Chrysler. If you want to know more about this, go to this site. http://autoadvice.about.com/od/gm/ss/GMTwoModeSys_4.htm
You probably own a BMW and can not over the fact you could have bought a GM for a whole lot less money and have it be out performed. Time will tell how those so call lousy GM vehicles perform!
...is wrong with the Cobalt and Aveo? I love the Cobalt coupe. They should've put those taillights on the sedan as well. I've driven a Cavalier and the Cobalt is much nicer. Take off the blinders, dudes! There's really not much difference between them and the glorious imports. The Honda Fit seemed nice, but the Toyota Yaris really left me cold. Why bother? Isn't that what Scion was for?
My Mom really likes her Aveo. She's had it for nearly two years and has had no problems with it. I've sat in the back seat of this tiny car. I'm 6' and I can't believe how roomy it is. A sharp new Aveo is coming out soon.
Of all the subcompacts, the Dodge Caliber seems the most promising. It's a mini-Magnum!
As for the acres of plastic comments, what do you expect at this price point? Shoot, back in the day you'd either get bare metal or cardboard! Oh yeah, I sat in the new Corolla and it has a choice of interiors by Fendi, Prada, Versace, or Gucci.
The GM two mode transmission will be a true hybrid. It will provide power by batteries only or by engine only or both. *** That's not a true hybrid, as I stated, and they don't use a planetary gear method like Toyota does, so their so-called transmission is $3000 to replace with the lifespan of a normal automatic, due to needing a torque converter to work)
True hybrids use electric motors only. These provide way more than enough power, or should. The hybrid part is a small gas/diesel/hydrogen/whatever generator/turbine that powers up the batteries. The advantage is it should only need 4-6 batteries instead of a thousand pounds worth AND still have nearly unlimited mileage.
But nobody is making them yet.
As for what's wrong with the Aveo and Cobalt? PLASTIC. My 1987 Buick LeSabre, piece of junk that it was, was ten times better inside and out. Gosh - nice cloth. A bit of accents and velour here and there. Real metal bumpers rated at 5mph(!). And it got about the same mileage as the current models, despite all that "extra weight" of those bumpers. Oh - and the doors were solid enough to shrug off parking lot mishaps. And even though it had a "worthless" SOHC 3.8L engine that ran like new at 150K miles, it still put out 165HP and blew the doors off of most 4 clyinder cars.
Face it - they've made cars into tupperware lately and it is horrendous. There's no way that I should pay $16,000 for a car that is all plastic and cost-cutting. If they could make a better car twenty years ago, what in the world is going on? Kill them already if this is all twenty years gets us. Put them out of our misery.
Leaving out the fact that the execs at GM have taken pay cuts, as well not getting any bonuses (the real money), the simple fact is that the legacy costs of U.S. based manufacturers in every industry puts them at a huge competitive disadvantage.
There are literally millions of retired people who depend on GM for pensions and health care. I suppose if one uses the argument that GM should just cut them off to save money, maybe you would also agree that the federal government should just cut off social security to the old as well to balance the budget.
The social contracts between employer and employee have been broken in this country, and the problems of GM and Delphi are only a milepost for all of U.S. manufacturing - American old line companies simply cannot compete unless they pull the rug out from under their social responsibilities they have taken on for retirees.
Everyone is looking for the cheapest priced items - it is easy to do when you have little or no responsibilities to the citizens of this country, unlike GM and Delphi.
At the end of the day, the retirees and employees are going to lose out, whether bankrupcty happens or not. It is going to be very ugly 20 years from now when the generation with no employer provided benefits starts to retire.
Excellent post, Sylvester. You summarized the situation perfectly.
I think GM will go bankrupt and liquidate, selling their manufacturing plants to a new company Sylvester Motors who will have no responsibility to support the GM retirees.
Sylvester will then produce cars, sell them cheaply, and make a nice profit. The GM retirees will be left out in the cold.
From what I can tell from reading the papers, that is what Bethlehem Steel did.
The STS is more of a BMW 5-series kind of car. The CTS is a 3-series sort. The V series Cadillacs are halo cars with a very high price and limited production. The BMW M3 & M5 models are also halo cars with limited production. The M5 is not the sort of car that one would drive in city traffic I think, while the STS_V is more suited to everyday use.
I don't think that the next generation CTS will be out until the 2008 model year. It could be an early 2008 model.
We have pretty much the same car. The old Seville was significantly larger than the current one. I'd say the old Seville is closer to the 7-Series in size.
If management really cared about the company, they would take a much lower salary themselves.
They have taken more from the company, then they have earned. Like Hyenas or something.
However, I do not believe George W, who I think is a wonderful president, should get involved.
That's his problem he already has gotten involved with buisness. Look at the hand-outs ($30+ Billion) the airline industry has gotten from President Bush BTW- Big Oil got $15 Billion too.
(I do) think the presidents job is to protect american workers and buisness from slave labor.
If a small U.S. buisness is making shoes for U.S. consumption and is paying American wage scales, then it's the job of the american government to tariff foreign made shoes so the U.S. company can stay in buisness for the overall good of the U.S. economy and tax base. The foreign company avoids U.S. Taxes all togeather except sales-tax of course.
I will go to my grave believing this way. Both dems and repubs, have let the american manufactoring sectors that are still left down. It's either close or move over seas to stay in buisness. Globalization isn't fair for the people trying to start a buisness and live the american dream. :mad:
And do you think the government is going to protect the unions? Do you think they're going to be probusiness in the trade agreements they sign orenforce?
We have the best politicians money can buy, everyone's money except the working stiffs' money. The labor unions just need to contribute more than the big companies have contributed, e.g., Tyson, Walmart, Hunt, Texas companies I don't know.
You have to watch what they actually do in DC, rather than listening to the sound bites chosen by the media to slant their coverage. Triangulation became a watchword in previous administrations. And the current is paying attention to what happens. A long strike and downturns in the economy resulting from that could sway the next presidential election. Or can you say "Patco"?
Comments
Actually GM is getting out of the cloning business. Sure there are a couple that come to mind (equinox/Torrent and trucks) but overall most would not realize that the Malibu and G6 share architectures. Have not seen the new LaCrosse styling but I would look for styling lines along the Enclave. Beautiful flowing lines.
But....they don't.
It's a conspiracy! Those evil media people...it has nothing to do with the product.
The new Lucerne is selling well. It is up 35% over the Park and LeSabre in January from 2005 January. And those old cars were heavy fleet. LaCrosse is holding it's volume but is selling at much higher ATP's than the old Century/Regal. Things are not great but Buick is doing OK.
A basic problem in evaluating body designs is that the reports all say that the new design is an improvment over the old design by so & so much %. They (manufacturers) only release relative values instead of saying what the actual values are. GM said that the Aurora body had a vibration frequency of 25 hertz compared to the old bodies (1994 Oldsmobile 98 for example) value of 15 hertz. The E-class Mercedes was said to have the same 25 hertz frequency. Now the frequency may be up to 50 hertz???
Is there any fleet sales numbers available for the Lucerne? I saw a Lucerne CXL yesterday with a very old guy behind the wheel and it had an Enterprise sticker on the back, apparently they are hitting the rental lots (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). It certainly has an upscale look to it. I can honestly say, I like the looks of the Lucerne over an Avalon.
rental fleet was way down on Buicks but January may have changed that.
Honda Civic HX
-loren
The Chevrolet dealership - OMG. The cars were just sheets of plastic inside. Not even contoured, broken up, or even with a little vinyl or cloth on them. Just sheets of plastic. Thin plastic as well. Okay, REALLY COST CUTTING THIN. The leather shifter boot on their Cobalt SS was paper-thin. Thinner than a CD thin.
The HHR they had - 16K car. 8K in options.
The Cobalt LS? 16,200 for one with automatic and nromal features.
The Honda Civic? About the same price.
The Aveo? 14.5K. No, not kidding 14,500.
The Honda Fit will sell for the same price, more or less.
In short, GM is pricing their cars with too many options and too high compared to the competition. Compare a Cobalt to the new Civic. GM deserves to die if they make junk like this. We, as consumer, deserve better.
Even the Chrysler dealership right next door had better vehicles. Just sad how thin and plasticky and ticky-tacky GM has become.
Side note - one exception... the PT Cruiser had the worst seats I've ever sat in, bar none. Dear lord they almost as bad as the seats in my Jr. High auditorium(you know the type - wood/metal with no padding.
I went over to the Saab dealership for a test-drive and some therapy. At least there's one company GM hasn't destroyed yet.
I've really never seen any stats on body vibration like that...I don't know if I know what it is all about save for something like rigidity.
Unfortunately, the powers to be say either yae or nae. They have made bad calls 80 % of the time. I am not being
cynical.....we just need someone with some balls.....who is willing to put them on the line and face the consequences.
Looks like Honda dropped the model this year. Oh well, it actually got MORE MPG than listed. Some people got closer to 50MPG and certainly the 44MPG was easy to do -- highway. The average is 39. Which I am sure can be bested.
Looks like it made the hybrid not such a great buy, so it is gone.
Loren
Loren
Hybrid a great buy? That's a laugh.
And I know this is picking nits, as they're both slathered in hard plastic, but I prefer the grain of the PT Cruiser, which is kind of "elephant" for lack of a better word, to the HHR, which is more like "goosepimples"! :P
Still, it's like 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. I think they're both decent vehicles in their own right. If forced to choose, I don't think there's really a clear-cut winner.
I had to trace back the above comment quite a ways back in time. Yes Cobalt is outselling the Corolla in january. 17,513 Cobalts to 15,600 Corollas. Will it continue? Good question. January was the first month of the new pricing but the ATP is about the same as before since the incentives were lowered.
(which haven't been released yet) can't or won't compete with Mercedes Benz or BMW ????
BTW-The 2006 STS-V held it own against the CLS55-AMG. I guess if you already have you mine made up
(like many of you do) on who's the winner based on name recognition then Cadillac or a GM car is defeated before the comparison gets started. :confuse:
Rocky
Seriously why can't Rick Wagoner and the overpaid board of executives who's made/make tens of millions take another pay cut instead of it always being pushed upon the workers who are getting squeezed and are actually feel real affects. Hell they are laying off 30,000 workers at GM and you want more from the UAW when Rick is still making $1.1 million not including stock options and bonuses ?????
Is Uncle Rick who is in control of the biggest automotive company in the world and who is responsible for making the company a profit with products the american people desire and want to own (WHO'S FAILED) worth that kind of change ?????
I like I've said before the easy answer is to squeeze the low man and is a excepted practice in this country. When leadership fails the low man is the scapegoat.
Why not lay-off Rick Wagoner and the rest of the idiots who've taken the biggest and greatest company "the world has ever known" and run it into the ground and rape it's wealth because of greed.
I do believe GM could pay it's UAW workers very well if not better than they are now, if only GM from a very long time ago (70's-on) would of been managed by people with a "vision" of long-term buisness success strategy like Toyota.
Rocky
BTW- The new 2 stage hybrid system that was co-developed by GM, Diamler Chrysler, BMW, will be proven to be the best fuel efficient hybrid system on the market for years to come until Toyota and Honda can improve upon it. I gurantee they will be purchasing one to "break down" the American and German Engineering "brain trust". :P
However since it doesn't say "synergy" it will be overlooked by the brainwashed public. :mad:
Rocky
I'll await the "countless" examples of other great engineering. Not good or sound engineering mind you...but great...
I own an odd-couple pair of Mercedes, never have had a Japanese car apart from the 510 I had for a few weeks.
If GM really is at risk of Death, everyone's gonna have to sacrifice.
Job Banks are no different than extra paper pushers the company keeps employed because they know Bob Lutz, Rick Wagoner, Jack Smith, J.T. Battenburg III, or some other big-wig. Our company does the exact thing and keeps excess people who know someone or have dirt on someone.
Yes the perfectly ran company would have none of these issues. It's not all the UAW's fault like many are protraying because of there anti-union feelings.
I'd also like to see them ease up on how inflexible
workers are. In construction too, unions dictate what a guy can and can't do, and cause a lot of redundancy that way.
Back in the 80's a guy did one job only, today some do as many as 3. Dad sometimes doesn't get to take a lunch break because he is so busy.
If GM really is at risk of Death, everyone's gonna have to sacrifice.
Very true. But the question is has the top sacrificed enough ????
Delphi's Top 600 paid themselves $980 million dollars in bonus cash. Delphi CEO-Steve Miller got a 3 million dollar bonus. To the eyes of the UAW members at Delphi that's not sacrifice.
Rick Wagoner would be more convincing if he would work for a dollar or up to $250,000 salary. The guy was making more than a 1 million dollar salary back when he was V.P. of North American Operations when my grand father still worked there back in 92-93. How rich do you think he is ????
The most sacrifice should come from the already rich guys calling the shots. They can actually afford it.
Rocky
Toyota and Honda has nothing to prove when in comes to hybrids becuase they have been mass producing them for well over a five years now, some models are into second re-design already.
However johny-come-lately of hybrids: GM, Diamler Chrysler, BMW has everything prove. Their single propulsion vehicles have not been exactly hardly paragons on reliability. You don't really need to buy a gas-electric S-class to get stranded on the highway due to electronics failure, a gasoline only version will do just fine; will GM hybrid pickups have special circuits to compensate for piston slap
So who thinks hybrid Cobalt will deliver better gas mileage than a non-hybrid corolla?
Considering Diesel cost more than premium gas where I live, it hardly a bargain. An unscheduled stop for repair at VW dealership is all it takes to offset savings from driving a TDI for one year.
Hey why not?
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html
Of course, all auto makers probably dissect and analyze each others' products.
However since it doesn't say "synergy" it will be overlooked by the brainwashed public.
The Prius won a 2004 award for technical excellence from the same Wired magazine quoted above. Now suppose GM's yet to be produced hybrid doesn't win similar accolades in the future--my question to you "media conspiracy" theorists out there is, why not? Or more precisely, why would the media deliberately overlook or ignore GM's offerings? What's in it for the media to malign GM/Ford/DC? What's their motivation? :confuse:
Would you rather have Sony/Panasonic or Emerson/RCA?
In my job, I never like it when someone had the attitude, "Be reasonable. Do it my way." It sounds like that is what management is saying to the UAW - "Be reasonable. Take a lower salary."
If management really cared about the company, they would take a much lower salary themselves.
However, I do not believe George W, who I think is a wonderful president, should get involved. The best way to find a realistic solution is to let the free market have its way.
Rock,
You basically said the CTS-V would eat an M5 for lunch. Quite different from holding it's own.
I haven't read anything regarding the G8 or '07 CTS-V. To date, GM (along with everyone else) has come up short when trying to out "BMW" BMW. Why will 2007 be any different? GM might be able to generate the numbers, but it's the "feel" that nobody has been able to recreate.
The only engine GM currently has that could beat the v-10 in the M5 is the LS7 and I'd be shocked it if makes it's way into a CTS-V. The supercharged Northstar can't beat it, unless they revise it for more power. I just looked in this months MT and the test numbers from the XLR-V don't beat the M5 they tested in the same issue and the XLR-V weighs less.
Quite frankly, a CTS-V competes on a different level due to the price point. It's kind of like comparing a vette to a 911. Performance is similar, but you pay for the enhanced tactile feel and driving experience in a 911. Before you flame away, I'm not taking anything away from a Corvette, it's a hell of a sports car.
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A teardown of the 2004 Prius two years ago helped sour GM on hybrid technology. The company is slowly rolling out hybrid trucks and buses, but it's focusing its innovation efforts on fuel cells.
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Translation: OMG, there's no way we can build a car like this, so screw it.
Lol. It's been fun, but GM - time to call it a day. As for the hybrid they are developing, unless it is either a true hybrid in that the car is electric with an onboard generator or uses a planetary gear assembly in the CVT, it's junk. A CVT with steps and hooked up to a torque converter becomes a $3000 repair bill with the lifespan of an automatic. All of the ones that I have seen also are made to be replaced as a single unit, so you can't actually fix it or rebuild it.
(note - the Prius is the exception - it uses a proper CVT)
It seems we can not give ourself credit for anything these days. We treat the Japanese like they can not do anything wrong. In fact,they just look at our mistakes and capitulates on them. Your an example of this.
They were supposed to do the job and they haven't and the Malibu/G6 haven't done a thing to dent the Camcord.
The General keeps on coming out with new models and promising "This is the new GM" and then the next year they're like "We know that the Malibu fell short but just wait till you see the Cobalt. This is the new GM".
I also think that most of you guys are overestimating the allure of RWD. The majority of Camcords and Altimas roll off the lot the 4 bangers. The front drive layout has some inherent advantages in traction and interior room that a rear drive can't match. Chrysler has done very well with the 300 family, but new entrants are only going to cut into that pie. I think that for a mid-market car, most people prefer front drive.
http://autoadvice.about.com/od/gm/ss/GMTwoModeSys_4.htm
Time will tell how those so call lousy GM vehicles perform!
My Mom really likes her Aveo. She's had it for nearly two years and has had no problems with it. I've sat in the back seat of this tiny car. I'm 6' and I can't believe how roomy it is. A sharp new Aveo is coming out soon.
Of all the subcompacts, the Dodge Caliber seems the most promising. It's a mini-Magnum!
As for the acres of plastic comments, what do you expect at this price point? Shoot, back in the day you'd either get bare metal or cardboard! Oh yeah, I sat in the new Corolla and it has a choice of interiors by Fendi, Prada, Versace, or Gucci.
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That's not a true hybrid, as I stated, and they don't use a planetary gear method like Toyota does, so their so-called transmission is $3000 to replace with the lifespan of a normal automatic, due to needing a torque converter to work)
True hybrids use electric motors only. These provide way more than enough power, or should. The hybrid part is a small gas/diesel/hydrogen/whatever generator/turbine that powers up the batteries. The advantage is it should only need 4-6 batteries instead of a thousand pounds worth AND still have nearly unlimited mileage.
But nobody is making them yet.
As for what's wrong with the Aveo and Cobalt? PLASTIC. My 1987 Buick LeSabre, piece of junk that it was, was ten times better inside and out. Gosh - nice cloth. A bit of accents and velour here and there. Real metal bumpers rated at 5mph(!). And it got about the same mileage as the current models, despite all that "extra weight" of those bumpers. Oh - and the doors were solid enough to shrug off parking lot mishaps. And even though it had a "worthless" SOHC 3.8L engine that ran like new at 150K miles, it still put out 165HP and blew the doors off of most 4 clyinder cars.
Face it - they've made cars into tupperware lately and it is horrendous. There's no way that I should pay $16,000 for a car that is all plastic and cost-cutting. If they could make a better car twenty years ago, what in the world is going on? Kill them already if this is all twenty years gets us. Put them out of our misery.
There are literally millions of retired people who depend on GM for pensions and health care. I suppose if one uses the argument that GM should just cut them off to save money, maybe you would also agree that the federal government should just cut off social security to the old as well to balance the budget.
The social contracts between employer and employee have been broken in this country, and the problems of GM and Delphi are only a milepost for all of U.S. manufacturing - American old line companies simply cannot compete unless they pull the rug out from under their social responsibilities they have taken on for retirees.
Everyone is looking for the cheapest priced items - it is easy to do when you have little or no responsibilities to the citizens of this country, unlike GM and Delphi.
At the end of the day, the retirees and employees are going to lose out, whether bankrupcty happens or not. It is going to be very ugly 20 years from now when the generation with no employer provided benefits starts to retire.
I think GM will go bankrupt and liquidate, selling their manufacturing plants to a new company Sylvester Motors who will have no responsibility to support the GM retirees.
Sylvester will then produce cars, sell them cheaply, and make a nice profit. The GM retirees will be left out in the cold.
From what I can tell from reading the papers, that is what Bethlehem Steel did.
Not a pretty picture, is it?
I don't think that the next generation CTS will be out until the 2008 model year. It could be an early 2008 model.
-Spring of 2007 as a 2008 model (rumor). I think the G8 could/would be released around the same time.
Rocky
If management really cared about the company, they would take a much lower salary themselves.
They have taken more from the company, then they have earned. Like Hyenas or something.
However, I do not believe George W, who I think is a wonderful president, should get involved.
That's his problem he already has gotten involved with buisness. Look at the hand-outs ($30+ Billion) the airline industry has gotten from President Bush
(I do) think the presidents job is to protect american workers and buisness from slave labor.
If a small U.S. buisness is making shoes for U.S. consumption and is paying American wage scales, then it's the job of the american government to tariff foreign made shoes so the U.S. company can stay in buisness for the overall good of the U.S. economy and tax base. The foreign company avoids U.S. Taxes all togeather except sales-tax of course.
I will go to my grave believing this way. Both dems and repubs, have let the american manufactoring sectors that are still left down. It's either close or move over seas to stay in buisness. Globalization isn't fair for the people trying to start a buisness and live the american dream. :mad:
Rocky-(one mans opinion)
We have the best politicians money can buy, everyone's money except the working stiffs' money. The labor unions just need to contribute more than the big companies have contributed, e.g., Tyson, Walmart, Hunt, Texas companies I don't know.
You have to watch what they actually do in DC, rather than listening to the sound bites chosen by the media to slant their coverage. Triangulation became a watchword in previous administrations. And the current is paying attention to what happens. A long strike and downturns in the economy resulting from that could sway the next presidential election. Or can you say "Patco"?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,