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First, I too owned an Aerostar, and it was hands down, the worse Ford I ever owned. Not the worst car, my Chevy Vega took that prize, but this Aerostar was just awful, and I was thrilled when my wife totalled it, even though it had new heads and new tires installed a month before the accident. So, I hear ya. The Aerostar could drive you to Toyota faster than anything, IMO.
I was the guy with the 0 ring comment on my 99 Navigator, and no other damage was caused. Maybe I caught it early enough, there was a green spot on the garage floor which tipped me off (R-134 is leak-detector ready), and the temp was fluctuating a bit inside. But the leak was fixed pronto, and it never gave me another issue.
I feel, I must state here, that Ford Factory Air is one of the things I like best about Ford products, as I live in the Southwest, and good air is essential here. I've driven most makes, and the Fords have satisfied me best in this area, Aerostar not withstanding, which had leaks we could never find. Most of the Fords I've had blow hard and blow cold. The 99 Navigator was no exception. Even in Black, the A/C was outstanding.
Now, here's the clincher that will probably make your decision easy. My 03 Navigator has goofy air, and I'm pretty hot (pun very intentional here) about it at this moment. It runs cold, then hot, then cold, etc., and cycles about every mile or so while driving. Having been told the first time I inquired that, "this system is different than your old one, sir", I decided to wait until the weather warmed up to see if in fact, it was my imagination. Yesterday, it got into the 80s, and it sure as hell is different than the old one, it's not cold, and I'm not cool. Took it back in yesterday, got the service adviser to ride with me and witness the strange phenomenon, which I assumed was low refrigerant. Went home in a Hertz Taurus, dealers cost. Got the car back today, diagnosed, but unfixed.
The problem is a stuck, or hanging up expansion valve, which of course, they have to order. Could take up to 2 weeks. They asked me if I wanted the car back, or to stay in the Taurus. I picked up my car. If they think I'm going to stay in the Taurus, fine utilitarian car that it is for 2 weeks, they're wrong. They'll call me when the part is in, and I'll be sort of cool for a while. In August, I would have made a different decision. But I digress....
Sorry for the ramble. I'm quite sure you'll steer clear of the Navigator after hearing this. Not sure I blame you. All I can say in summary is, I've had a lot of Ford products over the years, and I have had a couple of stinkers, but most of them have treated me very well. And it's really rare that the A/C is the problem, even on the couple of bad ones. Having said that, I may be re-writing history as we speak, who knows? Give me a few weeks, and I can update you. Other than this irritating issue, I really like the new Nav, as I really liked the old one.
We have a few used ones and they lean a little when not running. I also confirmed this with one of our Lincoln tech's.
If it does not level off once the navi has been running for a minute or so...then you might have a problem which should be looked at..
I noticed different cargo volume specs as well, is there really a diference?
And what do you think of the Seqoia?
Thanks.
75-80 mph both ways
going up, locked out of o/d multiple times
min rpm- 2500 (cruise)
max rpm- 4100 (long climb)
going down, locked out of o/d once
min rpm- 2200 (descent)
max rpm- 4000 (brief climb)
going up- 22 mpg
going down- 32 mpg
400lb of passengers
150lb of cargo (trunk)
Altima 2.5S
engine has 7500 miles on it
check out coming back
hows your mileage?
Steve, Host
Second: Something sounds fishy about the the just-published Edmunds lux SUV comparison. The ESCALADE at #1? I can certainly live with the LX470 topping all others but the Cadi just doesn't seem to cut it in my eyes. It may have a bit more power (The 4X2 has considerably less though) but that is it. Also: the navigator tested had the old cd-rom navigation system -- new Navigators now come with a state of the art voice activated DVD system -- that should have been noted in the article. Also, at one point the author stated that the LX470 has HID's -- it does not. Also, one of the testers noted that they did not like how the rear DVD system screen blocked the view in the rear view mirror. Unless you get an after market system with the screens on the headrests don't ALL factory rear entertainment systems block the view when the screen folds down? I know it does on the LX.
I agree that in terms of overall refinement, quality feel, and reliability, the LX 470 is still ahead (slightly) of the Navigator. In terms of features, room, and "bang-for-the-buck" the Navigator blows all of the others out of the water - and again, the ESCALADE at # 1??? Something just doesn't feel right about that. Perhaps I'm just blinded by the outdated, low grade-feel interior of that truck. I still say give me the features and room of a navigator with the quality-feel, smooth ride, and refinement of the LX470 and I am in LUX SUV heaven!!!
Just my 1.5 cents. I'd be curious to see what other navigator owners thought about that article.
How about rear seat mats? Anybody bought any for the 3rd row seats?
03 Ultimate 4x2 owner
Steve, Host
I think the current 300 Horses are fine for me. Also, even though I'm sure I am in the minority on this view,I think those rims are a bit too "yo homey wuz ahh" for my tastes.
Also:
That Nissan Pathfinder Armada looks like a real Expedition fighter... Infinity's QX56 (this truck's lux twin) due out later this year or early next year just might give my Navigator a run for the money during lease renewal time.
Towing at altitude can be a challenge for the Navigator, so I think more power is a must, especially when compared to the GM products.
Anyone else hear the same thing?
I am new to this forum but I wanted to bounce a few questions off of you. Also, I apologize in advance for such a long post <SMILE>.
I am a former 2002 GMC Envoy SLT owner and ended up selling it several months ago due to the ongoing problems that plagued the first model year of this vehicle. Immediately after selling the Envoy, I placed an order for a 2003 GMC Yukon Denali (since I loved my dad's 2002 model so much). After careful consideration, I decided to cancel the Denali order and save my "duckies" so that maybe I could consider a 2004 model SUV.
With all of the APR specials going on, I've been getting the "itch" to move forward on purchasing my next SUV. Thus far, I am really torn between the Cadillac Escalade (being able to take advantage of my father's GM employee discount) and the Lincoln Navigator (possibly at invoice pricing), but more so leaning towards the Navigator due to its more luxurious (and not overly flashy) looking exterior and attention to detail. For instance, I love how the wheels fit the wheel wells without looking gawdy (whereas the Caddy's wheels look too small and you can see the entire wheel well..ick) and I also like the solid "THUNK" of the exterior panels as opposed to the Caddy's "TINK" sound! Different sheet metal or usage of fiberglass perhaps??
I've been to two Lincoln dealerships thus far pretending that I didn't know anything about the vehicle because I wanted to hear the sales pitch and take long test drives. Just for reassurance, I will hit another dealership just to get a third opinion and hope to cure my worries about the "not so brisk" acceleration.
If I purchase the Navigator, the vehicle will be equipped with EVERY option which hopefully includes the following:
* Navigator ULTIMATE 4x4 Package
* Power Moonroof
* Power Deployable Runningboards
* Rear Entertainment System
* DVD Based Navigation System
* Tire Pressure Monitoring System
* Chrome Wheels
Ok.. with that being said, here are the questions:
#1. Does anyone have the Tire Pressure Monitoring System on their Navi and if they do, does it show each individual tire's pressure on the dash? Also, is it available yet? I've heard yes and no from dealers.
#2. During my test drive, I noticed the driver or passenger mirrors will do "curb-view" when the vehicle is engaged in reverse. My Envoy would allow you to "fine-tune" the reversing mirrors so that you could see the curb at your own setting. Will the Navigator allow you to do this as well? I was really not able to get a good view of the curb while in reverse mode, but my sales people were clueless?? In other words, the curb view doesn't really give me a curb view!!
#3. Will the Rear Seat Entertainment system allow you to project the sound through the cabin speakers instead of using the headphones?
#4. Can you fine-tune the "Easy Exit" seat to exit in the manner that you choose? I particularly liked this feature in my Envoy because I could have it go to the floor and NOT slide back. I adjusted the seat setting and then pushed the "Easy Exit" seat button to lock in my selection.
#5. Can you program your automatic headlight exit delay time? (i.e. 10,20,30,40 second intervals)
#6. Is the driver's side exterior mirror electrochromatic with the inside rear view mirror?
#7. Have anyone heard of proposed changes for the 2004 model?
#8. In a nutshell, is there any particular problems that I should be aware of IF I purchase a Navigator with a post-April build date? I say post-April because I am looking for one that has the new touch-screen DVD based navigation system.
#9. Any worries or know issues about the power running boards or power lift gate?
I must admit, my 2002 Envoy came with some pretty "cutting edge" features that have spoiled me. I really liked how GM took a feature and personalized it in every way, making it much more adaptable to the owners (i.e. tilt-down mirrors to your specs, Easy Exit seat preference... just to name a few) and I am hoping that the Navi will perform similar functions. From my quick test drives, it seems as if the programmable features are somewhat generic in terms of preference (i.e. Yes/No, On/Off).
I've looked at the 2003 Denalis and Escalades and they've pretty much inherited the 2002 Envoy's dash and technological features that I like so much, but I really want to look outside of the General this time around. Also, just for the record, I am looking at the vehicle for myself, I am a single guy with no children. Any assistance that you all could offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for reading this!
Sincerely,
Ingenious Guy
PS: Just for the record, other vehicles that I have considered:
#1. Infiniti FX 45 -- Too hard of a ride, no interior room.. Looks like a PT Cruiser on steriods.. kinda cool though, but for my $50K+, I want a TRUE SUV with room for a new washer and dryer if I needed to bring it home from SEARS! Oh.. most important, got it STUCK in snow during the test drive WITH the salesguy along for the ride! I was apalled!!!! But.. thank goodness the ATV dealership was open, and came to our rescue with ATV's to get us out!!
#2. Volvo XC 90 SUV -- Hmm... too much Turbo lag and basically gizmo DEAD. Although safe for those with kiddies!
#3. Mercedes Benz M-500 -- Ok.. looks better now.. lots of cool stuff, kinda a third choice thus far. Torque rich V-8, cool German Engineering features, somewhat aging platform. Loaded @ $52K! Cool..
But.. no special incentives (no 0%, 1.9, etc.).
You get 302hp, most all of the bells & whistles (automatic running boards, hatch, and rear seat are not available on the Aviator, but DVD, Navigation, heated and cooled seats, HID, etc. are), and the same seating capacity as your Envoy.
Here is a link to the 2003 Navigator owners manual.. it should answer any other questions you might have.
https://web.msslib2.dealerconnection.com/RightSite/getcontent/myf- ile.pdf?DMW_OBJECTID=09000c588037e84c
I think you will like the 03 Ultimate.. I have one and it has been pretty special so far. Some of these trucks can have their issues (just like any brand) but if you pick a good dealer they'll make the bumps feel a lot smoother.
Good Luck!!
You get 302hp, most all of the bells & whistles (automatic running boards, hatch, and rear seat are not available on the Aviator, but DVD, Navigation, heated and cooled seats, HID, etc. are), and the same seating capacity as your Envoy.
If you had a Job1 navigator you got the CD based system with multiple CD's. If you got a mid year (job2) navi you have a single disc DVD system.
By the way, I was just curious and asked my dealer what it would cost to swap the old navigation system for the new and they quoted $2500. Since I'm on a short term lease I'm not going to spend the bucks now and will just wait for my next gator -- if that's what I get.
The CD-based navigation system has been pretty good (at least as good as the Lexus system on my wife's car) and I do not travel out of state so multiple cd's are not a problem for me. The main reason I would prefer the newer system is to get the front loading CD changer on the dashboard and not in "no-man's" land on the lower passenger-side foot well.
Navigation CD updates can be bought at Navtech.com so yes, they are upgradeable. DVD's are also upgradeable (don't know that company though). Having used both CD (Lincoln) and DVD (Lexus) based systems I prefer the DVD system EXCEPT for the fact that that the radio station preset buttons are integrated into the touchscreen and not separate buttons like on the CD system.
To get the DVD to start playing from the front seat I use the media button the steering wheel (this is the only way right?), but sometimes hitting the media button won't go to the DVD. I will go through the FM, FM2, AM, CD, but not DVD even though a DVD is present, so I have to eject the DVD and reinsert it to get it to play which is a pain?? Anybody have this problem?
Before I took ownership in March 2003, the rear liftgate motor had to be replaced as the rear liftgate didn't even open at all. Should have known then not to choose this car on the lot, but it was the 4x2 Ultimate package, black on black, very nice.
In the past two months, I've been to the service department 5 times; each time the service manager has not been able to duplicate the problem. My husband even showed him and his technicians the very recent videotape I filmed of just this problem --- clear as can be.
Was told that since they didn't see the problem first-hand, I had to go along with what Ford Motor Co.'s customer service representative said I had to do --- document each time the problem arose, listing the time and location. However, no one could tell me how long of a documentation was needed for the problem to be "accepted" and, therefore, be covered under warranty.
Does anyone have any advice? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!
Admittedly, you need some cooperation from the service department, but depending on how often this happens, I'd press it. You don't pay $55M for a car, and tolerate annoying problems like that. At least, I don't. So far, in over a decade of Lincolns, I've always won, and rarely have had to be nasty about it. If all this fails, call Lincoln. They need to put a new motor in and try that. Good luck!
Can't seem to understand why the service manager would not accept a non-digital videotape (with over 20 liftgate malfunctions filmed) of the problem. He had thought it was a good idea in the first place! In your experience, does videotaping have any value as proof that this problem exists?
You make a good point about the computer diagnostics though, and they do have a problem there. No error codes generally means, Ford won't pay for them to go exploring for problems. It's the manufacturers way of stopping some dealer fraud. An error code gives authorization to repair. Otherwise, a lot of paperwork has to go in to justify the repair. But keep trying. Don't give up! You may need to demand a factory rep look at the car. I'd be marching into the General Manager's office by now.....with a copy of the video tape. What's your lemon law in that state?
I've also contacted the Lincoln Hot Line five times now --- each time my concerns have been documented. Got to the point where the supervisor there gave me his direct line and said he will monitor my situation and make sure the dealership and its service dept. go out of their way to make sure this problem gets resolved accordingly. He certainly viewed my videotape as a logical step and was surprised that the service manager didn't do anything more after seeing the tape. I say, an inch towards progress.
Yes, the lemon law in California certainly applies to this situation. We'll see if the FSE can pinpoint a solution to this perplexing problem before I go this route. Good point in bringing this up.
Patience (plus doggone, teeth-in-the pantleg determination) is the key here, isn't it?
Thank you again!
This Lincoln dealership is brand new, too--- just opened two months. You would think its top brass down to their service managers would want to establish a good rapport with us Lincoln owners and ensure we have a great experience with their vehicles. The only person in that dealership who showed any class was Jose, the shuttle driver.
We'll keep our fingers crossed for a positive outcome.