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BTW Tag, I think I am sensing the undertone in your posts about the Genesis. It must be the potential that finally a Hyundai may do to Lexus waht Lexus did to MB, at least in the US market. You are anticipating, nay salivating, about the prospects of Lexus getting hurt by Hyundai... To this I must say - not gonna happen.
m4d_cow wrote a pretty good piece a couple of pages back. Hyundai has wisened up and will be going after the lower class Avalons and Maxima's of this world. Lexus won't be losing any sleep over Hyundai, not now and not anytime soon. As for a Hyundai Equus, well, I can only agree with the sentiments expressed hy Howard... Its almost like VW/Phaeton all over again. Hyundai is adviced to perfect the art of cheap cars so well, they become the future Toyota. Only then could they take on the higher echelons like Lexus and BMW. A 7-er fighter from Hyundai? If it wasn't ridiculous it'd be funny... but nobody is laughing cos it is plain silly!!!!
Salivating? Me? Preposterous!
I'll tell you this, oac... Before this latest generation of LS emerged, we had some serious debates on this forum about the necessity of "value" in the Lexus equation. I maintained then, and I maintain now that Lexus needs the "value" card to stay highly successful. The quality/reliability gap between Lexus and its competitors will continue to shrink over time, and the previously huge Lexus quality/reliability advantage will eventually be a permanent loss to Lexus. But that's all OK, provided that Lexus maintains their repuatation for quality/reliability, yet still offers "value" in their price structure.
Well, some posters (most not here any more) were convinced that Lexus should RAISE their prices to become more exclusive in the marketplace. I couldn't have disagreed more!! And, when Lexus released their very high prices, I was shocked! The "value" card was no longer being played!! Now, of course, we see that Lexus sales are in decline, not unlike so many others. The bottom line is that Lexus is no longer a "value" purchase.
So, what ARE Lexus vehicles, if they are not a "value", nor are they as exclusively reliable?? Dependable, yet expensive appliances? The whole Lexus equation has shifted, and I now see Hyundai has taken that "value" card that Lexus so stupidly threw away. THAT's my "undertone", as you call it.
Do I really think that Hyundai is going to hurt Lexus? NOPE. Not yet anyway.
Do I think that anyone else is going to hurt Lexus? That's questionable.
So... who is going to hurt Lexus? The answer is... LEXUS is going to hurt Lexus!! That's right! They may very well shoot themselves in the foot. The further Lexus strays from the fundamentals that made them successful in the first place, the more likely it is for Lexus to lose market share. And, I believe that Lexus (overall) is indeed off track.
The Hyundai Genesis is just that... the very beginning... just as its name implies. And it's a very good beginning of a major strategic plan by Hyundai. The beginning further implies that there is more to come, and we already know that yet another larger more luxurious Hyundai will come soon, and we already know that the Tau V8 can be bored to 5.5L, although the intention is to take it to 5.0L very soon. We can anticipate more luxurious and more sophisticated models from Hyundai as time goes, and as the Genesis proves to us, we can expect them to be obvious "values" in their segments.
Perhaps in the near future, Hyundai will open a dedicated marque for their premium vehicles . It's entirely possible, and at the rate Hyundai is going, it is probable.
Frankly, after seeing what is coming from Acura, I'd rather see Acura close down and be replaced by a Hyundai luxury division!!... LOL.
TM
Indeed you may be right... somewhat, Tag. I am an ex-Lexus owner and I didn't ditch Lexus bcos they were off-track, but bcos I needed something different. Would I go back to Lexus? Of course... someday.. if they have something that excites me, like an IS-F
Lexus being a "value" play in the lux class makes sense cos back in 1989, Toyota was an econobox making company, at least the perception right here in the US. Making a large, solidly-built, top-of-the line features, with a silky-smooth V8 motor, all of the trappings of luxury, an almost xerox-copy of an older slab-sided MB, priced at $15K cheaper than the MB, and with an outstanding customer service experience, was a winning strategy for Toyota/Lexus. It included launching a luxury brand as well. Which of these factoids does Hyundai bring to the table? Hyundai does not even have anything remotely close to such a winning strategy. So does a Genesis make Hyundai a lux maker? Sheesh!!! That answer is quite obvious, isn't it?
I'll say it again. Hyundai needs to beat Toyota at Toyota's game before they can up the ante. They haven't earned any rep in any category worthwhile to a $40K buyer, so how the heck do they plan to win that market??? Hyundai doesn't outshine in sedans, trucks, sport sedans, or in anything... Hyundai may well bring a 6L TT V12 motor packing 600+HP output... would anyone even care??? A V8 bored to 5.5L with an output over 400HP scares nobody. Hyundai has no rep to live on. I cannot imagine going from a V6 Sonata to a V8 Genesis means much to me. Its still a Hyundai.... value-priced till the cows come home.... A hyundai cannot be anything else but be a "value" buy. You ain't gonna buy Hyundai cos it has better driving dynamics, sportier handling, more aerodynamic, better braking, better suspension, better motor, better customer service/experience, more luxurious than___, or is best at _____?? Does anything they do well come to mind???
Let it go Tag... Just take a wait-and-see attitude to Hyundai and don't get too far ahead of yourself. I am just afraid you'd stake too much of your rep around here on Hyundai :shades:
OK.
TM
Tag, we sure stand on different sides of the field on genesis, but I agree with oac, just wait and see. Also, I do agree with you that Lexus is killing itself right now, particularly with toyota's assembly quality falling apart.
No I dont agree that Lexus should be called a value luxo anymore, not because of the price but I believe Lexus has passed the "value player" image. Thats Acura and Infiniti's role right now.
Yes I also think the old M3 has that classier, even sportier look. The new one does look sporty, but too overwrought and somewhat less muscular looking than the old one.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I shut it down because the argument was getting lame.
There is only one way to settle this, Howard takes his beloved 335i and I take my F-sport modded IS350 to the track so we can walk the walk.
By the way, just to show that the 3er isn't all that head and shoulders above its competitors:
The X Package improvements also translate to the track, as our slalom test confirms. Although it's down over 100 hp on the IS 350, the IS 250 is nearly 4 mph faster through the cones with a 70.4-mph result. This is blazing speed, and it puts the IS 250 ahead of the BMW 335i, not to mention about a half dozen very capable sports cars.
Follow-Up Test: 2007 Lexus IS 250
So, Lou... I can't imagine why someone would choose an IS when they could just as easily have acquired the 3er. I sure hope it's not that old reliability thing again. Anyway, I'm sure you have your reasons... so could you elaborate on them? 'Cause I just don't get it.
TM
I thought I explained it multiple times...
- The IS looks better than 3er (subjective I know)
- The IS has better interior than 3er (again, subjective)
- The IS is a better value than 3er (spin it anyway but you know this is true)
- Agree that the back seat of the IS is small but since mine is empty about 99% of the time so that's a moot point for me
- I don't want a manual tranny
- For everyday driving the IS is just as good as the 3er
- When I purchased my IS350, the 335i wasn't available. Between the IS350 and 330i it was really a no brainer to me. After the 335i became available I went to test drive it twice (once with sport and another without) and if I have to do it again I'll still choose the IS350 over 335i. I just never got the "urge" that tempted me wanting to trade in my IS350 like I did after driving the e46 M3.
Reliability issue didn't even cross my mind when I was shopping...
Also, after Lexus announced the F-sport line for the IS250/350 I knew that I made the right choice. Currently my IS350 is riding on the F-sport sway bars, intake and Eibach springs, the driving experience is a lot different comparing to the bone-stock IS.
Maybe 2001gs430 can also share with us why he ditched the 328i for the IS350 just after one month of ownership.
I did. I've never purchased a car without driving it first. I like the 4.2 S-line quite a bit, but I still wanted to try the real deal, so I stopped by Riverside Audi in NJ to try one of their used ones. The S5 is a gorgeous car, congrats.
- The IS looks better than 3er (subjective I know)
- The IS has better interior than 3er (again, subjective)
I can understand that some might prefer the IS interior style. Exterior? Goodness, the 3er looks much better to my eye. (subjective, I know)
- The IS is a better value than 3er (spin it anyway but you know this is true)
No spin necessary. Perceived value associated with its lower price is clearly subjective. True for you? Perfectly fine. No problem at all. For others, however, the "value" in what the Bimmer offers for it's price tag beyond the IS could be perceived the other way around.
- Agree that the back seat of the IS is small but since mine is empty about 99% of the time so that's a moot point for me
Then, this point is irrelevant, as it is not a reason you chose the IS.
- I don't want a manual tranny
Both cars available with automatic.
- For everyday driving the IS is just as good as the 3er
OK... but if they are equal in that regard, that leaves the IS with no advantage.
- When I purchased my IS350, the 335i wasn't available. Between the IS350 and 330i it was really a no brainer to me.
Purely subjective (which is fine)... But, I don't see the reasons behind that statement.
Also, after Lexus announced the F-sport line for the IS250/350 I knew that I made the right choice. Currently my IS350 is riding on the F-sport sway bars, intake and Eibach springs, the driving experience is a lot different comparing to the bone-stock IS.
OK, now you have defined some reasons, but BMW also has all sorts of performance mods available... and besides, I thought your focus is daily driver, which would have put aside the BMW's performance advantages So, does performance matter or not? I'm getting a mixed message on this one.
So far... what I get from this is that you were motivated and swayed enough by the IS's lower price, a style you prefer, and perceived value... that you considered it a no-brainer, and voted with your wallet.
TM
Torture!!
I waited twice for my 135i. You'll be gazing at pics, dreaming of the car, and going a bit stir-crazy by the time those last days finally roll around... which will seem like an eternity from now!... LOL.
Congrats!!!!!!... and good luck!!
BTW, I personally think the S5 is an incredibly gorgeous car!! In my eye, it just begs to be a convertible. The S5 is a style winner by a country mile. Stunning!
TM
The F-sport didn't come out until 2 years after I purchased my car so that was irrelevant at the time of purchase. I threw that in there just to make a point that if one is looking for performance/handling the 3er isn't all that head and shoulders above the IS. The best part of the F-sport is that one can custom modify the car to the way of his/her liking without being restricted by the bundled options.
Performance definitely matters and like I said I don't think the 3er has an overwhelming advantage over the IS in that area. Not now and definitely not 2 years ago with the 330i. Even without the F-sport I would still choose the IS over 3er even though it is a slightly less performer when pushed the envelope. As I mentioned, for everyday driving it is really a moot point. Oh, and did I mention that the IS350 has about 40 more hp at the time?
So let me see... lower price/better value, better style and way more power at the time... No brainer, I would think so.
Really? Let's see...
I posted:
So far... what I get from this is that you were motivated and swayed enough by the IS's lower price, a style you prefer, and perceived value... that you considered it a no-brainer, and voted with your wallet.
You posted:
... lower price/better value, better style and way more power at the time... No brainer, I would think so.
I missed the point? OK, if you say so. :confuse:
Looks like quadruple bullseyes to me!!
TM
It was never factored into my purchasing decision since I didn't know that Lexus would introduce it 2 years later.
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TM
Thanks for the clarification, however. I do understand more completely now.
TM
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TM
Cool... just say what you mean next time. :P
TM
Oh wait, yeah, the same idiots who asked for X6...
Never mind.
Actually I did, you just need to read it more closely next time.
Oh wait, yeah, the same idiots who asked for X6...
Is that how you see it?
From my vantage point, the X1 could tie into the trend towards smaller more fuel-efficient vehicles, while providing the historically successful SUV body style. It would counter the competition and their upcoming small SUV models. And, I'll add, if it drives like the current 1-Series, it could be a nice addition to the lineup.
The X6, however, is a total loser, IMHO. Senseless.
TM
Yes.
BMW should just bring us the 3- / 5-door version of the 1-series and call it a day.
Maybe they are since I caught a 5-door 1er on PCH several months ago. Here are the shots I took with my cell phone:
If this is true then that just makes the X1 idea even more pointless.
TM
But, that cool vehicle is actually dysfunctional in terms of interior cargo/ room/ layout. An X1 will probably solve those issues and be competitively marketed in the more-acceptable SUV or CUV body style.
TM
With the rear seat folds down I wouldn't be surprised that the 5-door 1er has about the same cargo area as the would be X1.
Check out my previous post, I've uploaded some pictures I took.
Then we agree!
link title
TM
With the rear seat folds down I wouldn't be surprised that the 5-door 1er has about the same cargo area as the would be X1.
Not necessarily. If we are talking rear-wheel drive, then the drivetrain can be less intrusive in an SUV than a hatchback, resulting in more interior passenger and cargo capacity. My guess is that's why we'll see an X1 and not a 1-Series hatchback.
TM
The X1 will be smaller than the X3 right?
Personally the X3 is already a compact SUV and doesn't provide much cargo volume. Who the heck in their sanity would go get a X1 if interior space is top on the priority list? :confuse:
Genesis receives a 5-Star safety rating.
Genesis ad states that Lexus should be nervous, and later in the ad it is revealed that it was Motor Trend that said that, giving credibility to the statement.
And finally... Initial sales of Genesis are way better than projected!
TM
You are right about the poor provision of interior space in the X3. Hopefully, the X1 will do a decent job with interior room. I'd bet large that the next X3 will be improved.
TM
Doesn't seem likely, not unless the dollar hugely strengthens against the Euro.
You decide.
Good Night!
Regards,
OW
Whether BMW is comparable or not is relative.
Those looking for balanced out luxury sports sedan find BMWs incomparable, while those looking for similar experience on a budget (willing to sacrifice a bit) will find Infiniti the best car ever.
Those looking for greatest comfort and ride will probably find Lexus and MB incomparable.
Those looking for true awd sedan will find Audi and its legendary quattro hard to beat.
While people expecting top notch customer service will most likely think twice before choosing BMW. hpowders, youre not alone. BMW's rather poor service for a premium brand is a well known subject. Even my local dealer wasnt that friendly, they're just, arrogant, until the Audi dealer across town outsell them in 2005.
Its that subjective, people. If BMW isnt for you, just dont buy it, noone require you to buy one, thats why there are competitors all over the board.
That said I never said no other car can be as safe, just may take more time or effort adjusting to it's behavior. BMW doesnt make a better driver, a driver who knows his/her car's limits, habits, and can adjust to it, is the better driver. And better driver goes anywhere safe in any car he/she drives. BMW in this sense, is the EASIEST to deal with, requiring less adjustments than many others. It's drivability limits is also among the highest in class, few can match the numbers. I believe G35 come closest to matching BMW, with braking even surpassing 3er's. But the feel is different, for instance: with the 3 you can brake gradually, smoothly and still stop at, say 100ft. You can do the same in G35, but the brakes are grabby its hard to brake smoothly. Matching the numbers is easy, matching the feel is the hard part. Whether the BMW is worth the extra $$$ for the driving feel depends on the driver.
Before anyone starts to doubt my point, I used to drive an '04 3er for a few years (until it got t-boned by a sucker running through a red light, that is). Then I switched to my TSX, therefor I can tell the difference. The TSX is a capable car, less balanced than my 3, but once I got used to it, it can be as safe as my BMW. But, and its a big one, I just cant push it the same way I pushed my beemer. (to be fair the front wheeler TSX is easier to drive in snow than any RWD 3er I know)
Now if you ask me, what car has the best handling, most balanced car for its class? BMW. What car is the worst in its class? BMW with Active Steering!!! Yes you read it right. At least even Acura TL's torque steer is predictable, not so with active steering. BMW is, imo, the best AND the worst.
Like I said, its totally subjective.
A shocking statement regarding Active Steering. Unfortunately, not all that uncommon. It is a feature that is widely misunderstood. I'm going to set the record straight here about Active Steering.
I have tested and purchased BMWs with Active Steering and also without it. Every model BMW does not have the exact same steering ratio without Active Steering, so it is kind of absurd to make one blanket statement regarding the steering capabilties of BMWs.
Specifically, I'll do best to reference the 1-Series, since I owned the 2008 135i Coupe without the A.S. before ordering my 2008 135i convertible, which has the Active Steering option. For the record, I thoroughly tested A.S. to see if it was a benefit or not before ordering it on my 135i convertible.
The NON-A.S. 135i has a terribly slow standard steering ratio. While it is still considered a good handling vehicle, at slow to moderate vehicle speeds it takes an abundance of wheel turning to bring about a response, due to that slow ratio. It's noticeable. The Active Steering enhances the response by quickening that steering ratio at slow vehicle speeds, which includes most cornering and tight handling conditions (as well as parking, which is irrelevant to me personally). A faster steering ratio is The PERFECT solution for slow to moderate vehicle speeds. Most interestingly and incredibly, the Active Steering also enhances performance by slowing its steering ratio at high vehicle speeds, to provide steadiness and stability to the handling... even to the point of a ratio that ends up being slower than the standard steering's ratio. In this case, the slower steering ratio is PERFECT for very high vehicle speeds.
So.. the A.S. provides a steering ratio that adjusts in direct response to vehicle speed, within a range that goes from a much quicker more-responsive steering ratio at slow vehicle speeds, where needed, to a slower less-responsive steering ratio at very-high vehicle speeds, which enhances vehicle stability. Unlike the fears of a steering system that is unpredictable, the more responsive steering ratios of the A.S. system become extremely intuitive, natural, and seamless in their feel, as they are directly proportional to the vehicle's speed. In addition to these terrific ratio adjustments, the A.S. system is tied in to the vehicle's stability system, so that in the event of an emergency maneuver, the driver's sudden reactions will be stabilized as necessary to avoid typical driver over-reaction of the steering wheel.
In addition to the terrific ratio changes, and vehicle stability, the Active Steering system's brilliant design inherently maintains road feel. Mechanical connection is always present to assure road feel. I absolutely love the Active Steering in my 135i. When I had the first 135i Coupe without it, I was kind of disappointed with the slow steering ratio and sluggish response. Of course, I loved the car enough to forgive it, but it was still there regardless. It was particularly noticeable when I switched from the Porsche to the BMW. At those moments, the difference was horrible. The Porsche's fantastic responsive steering put the standard BMW's to shame. But the addition of Active Steering in my current BMW 135i convertible has changed all that. It is absolutely awesome.
Yes, you said that it is totally subjective. And, I agree. But, I really want to make sure that everyone here knows the facts about Active Steering. It has been one of the most misunderstood features of the BMW for quite a while. The reason for this is that it is an expensive option. When confronted with that, most people believe that the standard BMW steering must be good enough. In addition, the dealers don't order it on most occassions for their inventoried cars. Again, it's due largely to the price, and since there are often few cars in inventory with A.S. installed, there is slim chance to test drive an Active Steering equipped vehicle. Most folks don't want to take the "chance", so they discover that the standard steering really isn't all that bad, and they end up not ordering the Active Steering, which is an awesome option, if it can be afforded
That all said, it does take a little getting used to. The first short trip in a vehicle with Active Steering is likely confusing and will feel unusual. After a while, though, it is the only way to fly!
If anyone here wants to know more about Active Steering, please feel free to ask. I may very well be one of the only posters here that has a genuine hands-on ownership experience with BMW's Active Steering.
I love my BMW 135i convertible, as you all know, but many of you had no idea that I so much appreciate the enhanced performance provided by its Active Steering.
Here is a video which will educate anyone that is interesting in learning the interesting truth about BMW's Active Steering...
BMW Active Steering Video
God Bless BMW and BMW Active Steering.
TM
m4d_cow,
I'm very sorry to have to straighten you out tonight, but I promise it's with all due respect.
First, I had to straighten you out regarding BMW's Active Steering. And now, your reference to your BMW as a "beemer" can be considered a criminal offense in some circles... LOL.
So... the truth is...
A "Beemer" is a BMW motorcycle.
A "Bimmer" is a BMW car.
There!! Now, you have the facts in your possession. You are armed and dangerous.
TM
Not feeling the front lip.
The rear lip is okay but not great.
Love the rims though.
No thanks. A proper design doesn't need a bunch of tacky "Fast and Furious" bits thrown on. Doing this kind of thing to an Aston or Maserati should be treated as criminal. Also, 10 bucks say the front tires rub when the wheel is at full lock.
If anybody has grabby brakes, its BMW. My wife's X3 isn't even the worst of the BMW lot, and its still difficult to roll up to a red light smoothly, something that is no problem with my Jag or Audi, or in any of the Infinitis I've tested recently.
I remember hating the AS system in the 545i I drove. It was changing ratios wildly in the 20-40mph range, you would go to make a turn and wonder "what's it going to do this time?". Road feel compared to the standard 5 was also MIA. Tag says the system is great in the 1 though, so they've either hugely improved it in the last couple of years, or the 1 just has a better system. At some point I'll have to drive a new 5 with AS to be sure.
Grabbiest brakes I ever drove? The Lexus LS460 L I tested. Horrible.
Second grabbiest? My previous FJ Cruiser.
Third... My wife's MDX.
My Active Steering has no wild ratio swings as you questioned. That would be unnacceptable and undesireable. If it wasn't simply awesome, I wouldn't have purchased it. Road feel isn't missing in action, but the steering is easier and feels a bit lighter than the non-AS. I'd prefer a little "heavier" feel, given the choice. Is it perfect? Maybe not, but it's benefits far outweigh any nit-picking.
The first miles behind the wheel with AS are weird. Feedback seems different... Heck, it IS different! But, after getting acclimated, I was hooked. Now, realize that if the 1er's standard steering wasn't so pitifully slow (it's ratio), I would not have had any real reasons to pursue the alternative, and ultimately have purchased the AS.
I wouldn't want it in my Porsche, for example. Choosing AS depends upon the quality of the vehicle's standard steering. In my case, AS is a HUGE improvement. Hope that's a little clearer!
TM
As much as I love the 1er 'vert, the Schnitzer mods aren't my favorites. I'm with Lou and LG. If you want to see some incredible pics, however, PM me, and I'll set you in the right direction, cause they are WAY too big for this forum's limits.
TM
Regards,
OW