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I saw your post and that you had been extended an offer but it was not carried out? It sounds like this was with your District Specialist? Given the way Christina and I divide and conquer (forum posts vs. emails), I don't have your case number. If you could get that to me or Christina we can check to see what happened on that.
Sarah, GM Customer Service
Remember, GM HAS PAID FOR MANY REPAIRS ON THIS FORUM. THEY WANT US ALL TO GO AWAY.... I hope you can be reimbursed. Also, our sunroof glass was not installed correctly when it was built and the glass was replaced as well.
Although there is currently no federal law concerning secret warranty programs, they are illegal in various states, including:
California
Connecticut
Maryland
Virginia
Wisconsin
Secret warranty laws typically require manufacturers to disclose their secret warranties by giving direct notice to affected owners, including information about the terms of the warranty program and reimbursements that may be available to those who already paid for repairs.
Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't.
Tell the local media about your secret warranty problem. Many consumers get reimbursed because a local Action Line, newspaper or television station starts to take an interest in a secret warranty. After all, if a manufacturer is trying to keep a secret warranty secret, the last thing the company wants is publicity on the secret warranty. A particularly good strategy is to announce the formation of a group to expose the particular secret warranty affecting your car. Even if the group is small as you and your neighbor, a group is powerful and attracts more attention than an individual.
Small Claims Court
Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.
Conclusion
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.
Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.
In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.
By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.
What is a secret warranty?
Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.
Examples of Secret Warranties
CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.
The Secret Warranty - Understanding After Warranty Assistance
Thank you for keeping us updated. If you don't hear anything from your agent by Tuesday please let us know. Thanks! Hope your weekend has went well!
Christina
GM Customer Service
This is not the first time, this has been the worst ongoing problem I've had. Shortly after I bought it I had it in more than once and then the recall came and the drain lines were too short so they were changed out. It has leaked a couple times on BOTH sides and dripping to the third row seat over the backup sensor. Today is really bad with all this rain!
My transmission went out in April, luckily in warranty, but warranty is now out. I paid alot to get the steering fixed at the same time though, it was grinding and power steering would fail when I went through water. So that must be fixed cause I was in alot of water today and no steering problem. But this leak is rediculous! GM should fix this ongoing problem! My mats were ruined long ago, but I'm afraid the airbags are also ruined, and I have water spots on the ceiling liner. Guess I'll call my local Chev dealer Monday but they couldn't find the leak last time I told them it was dripping from the backup sensor!
Any comments GM?
The solutions have ranged from short drain tubes (replaced via recall 1 month after purchase), to my fault for allowing leaves to accumulate outside the lower edge of the windshield. Both sunroofs have been removed and re-sealed more than once.
I have no doubt that the problems stem from an engineering defect in the design of the vehicle, and that GM should have probably recalled and replaced all vehicles as soon as this issue surfaced. By stonewalling customers, they have largely won.
I would suggest that everyone with continuing leak problems, be it the Saturn Outlook or sister vehicles from Buick and GMC, file a complaint with the NHTSA, citing serious concerns over potential airbag failure due to water intrusion into the pillar posts where the 4 side/corner airbags are located. Its a little late to find that an airbag has failed after a collision resulting in serious injury or death.
Have you opened a file with Customer Assistance yet on this issue? If you would like to get one started through us, please email us at socialmedia@gm.com with more details (including your name and Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and mileage, and the name of your dealership).
Sarah, GM Customer Service
Go to page 42 and you can read the information about Secret Warranties. It is also very informational to go back and read many of the other posts. It is criminal what has happened to the consumers of GM. These leaks have devastated people. We ended up giving our car back to the bank with over a 100 pages of documented communications with GM and repair statements. It ruined our credit and devastated us. Unfortunately, the bank could care a less and the car went to auction.... it looked brand new inside due to the extensive work done to stop the leaks. The electrical could not be fixed and the car was unsafe. It poured in the North West yesterday and all I could think about was some poor soul has our car and the disappointment to follow.... I did not go down without a fight!
I just want you to know GM paid for EVERY expense, my car was in the shop for a period of 2 months and still could not fix it. The repairs were extensive. GM paid for my rental car as well. GM pays for these expenses I believe because of the Secret Warranty to prevent a Class Action. I contacted the firm below and they informed me of laws in certain States that will protect consumers. Unfortunately, i don't live in those States. If you do, this will be helpful for you. I would like to know the steps taken to have this law in all states. When and if you talk to GM they will give you the run around and tell you things like pine needles get stuck in the tubes etc...and how each case is case by case. It's BS they are well aware of the problem. Good Luck to you and keep up the fight!!
Does your car company have a secret warranty program?
A "secret warranty" program, also known as a "silent recall," is a program where a car manufacturer offers repairs for free or at a discounted price to some, but not all, of its customers. Secret warranty programs are hidden, meaning that auto manufacturers do not notify consumers of their warranty program, leaving consumers to discover these programs on their own or pay for repairs themselves.
With secret warranties, an auto company avoids the costs of having to offer the program to every eligible customer. These programs are inherently unfair and are illegal in several states. At Girard Gibbs, our attorneys represent consumers in class action lawsuits involving unlawful secret warranty programs. Learn more about our secret warranty lawsuits.
Car Secret Warranty Laws
Although there is currently no federal law concerning secret warranty programs, they are illegal in various states, including:
California
Connecticut
Maryland
Virginia
Wisconsin
Secret warranty laws typically require manufacturers to disclose their secret warranties by giving direct notice to affected owners, including information about the terms of the warranty program and reimbursements that may be available to those who already paid for repairs.
Any advice for successful tactics to get this resolved by GM is appreciated!
Issues w/2009 Saturn Outlook after and/or during rainy weather:
- water leaking from both driver and passenger front airbag badges
- water streaming down inside passenger windshield when stopping/breaking
- water dripping from overhead light between front and middle row seats
- audible sounds of water splashing around in the ceiling and trickling to either side when turning corner
- parking break light came on and warning signal chimed for hours
- radio no longer works
- backlight on left side of dashboard is out
- parking assist/back up signal not working
- blinker no longer sounds (no clicking sound when you signal)
- car continued to run after removing keys from ignition after rain last week
- dead battery later that day
- keyless entry didn't work yesterday—began functioning again after opening doors with key
- musty/moldy odor beginning to set in, particularly on warmer days
While we cannot promise up front what the end resolution will be, we would be willing to check into this further with you. Please email us at socialmedia@gm.com if you would like for us to do so, and include a brief recap of the situation, your name and contact information, the last 8 digits of the VIN and mileage, and the name of your preferred dealership.
Thank you,
Sarah
GM Customer Service
There's now a leak in the right front passenger panel as well.
I took the car in today to the dealership and he flat out told me that his manager would not approve them doing anything for free as they're "getting rid of this car." I reminded him that I've been in here every winter and he told me, "except for last year, and because it's been over a year I don't know what we can do."
Seriously?? I told him I've read this blog post and that I know GM knows about this problem and while the guy was really nice, he told me there's nothing they can do but run a diagnostic (which I'm sure I'll have to pay for) and get back to me. He added, "Unfortunately, you're looking at 5-6 hours of labor at $180/hr." $900 to start fixing a problem I've been telling them about for years and GM knows about??
Not to mention our transmission just had to get completely replaced and it still doesn't work right. I've seen Customer Service respond to posts here. I'm hoping they see this and can give me a course of action that I can take. A couple weeks ago during a rain (and the car was leaking) the radio started to short in and out. I'm now concerned that this leak is affecting other things in the car.
We can certainly understand why you're frustrated and are available to check into this further (although we cannot promise up front what the end resolution will be). Please contact us at socialmedia@gm.com and include the following information: your name and contact information, the last 8 digits of your VIN and mileage, and a brief summary of the situation so far.
Regards,
Sarah
GM Customer Service
NOW it leaks endlessly. We are in the Pacific Northwest and have had 18 inches of rain this year.. Guess where it all ends up.. INSIDE THE CAR. Comes out the airbag hole, out the seam between the roof material and the plastic of the corner, splashes all over my husbands head if he stops quickly. We've had the Chevy dealer deal with the drain tubes.. AGAIN at our expence $350.. just add it to the rest of the money we've spent. Im all for a class action suit and would gladly sign on. Will watch this forum for details. No one will take responsibility for these cars. We're screwed, essentially. Never buying a GM car again as long as I live. Hope my kids, husband and I live through this car.
Sarah, GM Customer Service
I emailed the gm customer service about the leaky roof and it was suggested I take it to my dealer. This Outlook has been to the dealer several time for the issue and I still have a problem.
I plan on scheduling another appointment for the problem with my GM dealer.
Thanks for the link. I am going there now. And then Consumer Reports if they have a place for these kinds of complaints.
I think this vehicle broke the Bank for GM and that is why they had to take the Government bail out. Wow ! Now things are starting to make sense. That could be one of the reasons to the end of Saturn ? Just a Thought.
I am starting to question my devotion to GM.
Goodbye GM. Wish I could say it was a great experience. At this point, if our Ford doesn't work out, we will go back to buying Japanese.
I am going to look into a class action suit because clearly this is ridiculous. You start to type it in google and the sentence gets finished for you. That is clearly pathetic!! Comment after comment same troubles. So what I should put more money out on this car?? I would love to make them buy it back. Piece of junk!! Makes me never want a GM again. Can't wait to get rid of it after I go after them for to doing what they should have fixed to begin with!! :mad:
I took it home after they stated the drains just had to be cleaned and now I have leak again plus the DVD Map error.
I purchased a Lexus service contract so car went back to Lexus dealership I bought it from. Lets see what dealer says about leak.
Do I have a recourse for the listing the sunroof leak on the bil of sale if they cannot fix it?
We'd be happy to check into this further for you, although we cannot make any promises up front as to what the results of our inquiry will be. Please email us at socialmedia@gm.com with more details, including your name and contact information, the last 8 digits of your VIN and mileage, and a summary of the situation.
Sarah, GM Customer Service
Clearly this is an extreme manufacturer defect. You start to type it in google and the sentence gets finished for you. That is clearly a problem. Comment after comment same troubles. So what I should put more money out on this car?? I would love to make them buy it back. Piece of junk!! Makes me never want a GM again. Can't wait to get rid of it now problem after problem. :mad:
I see that you've already contacted Customer Assistance via phone. Were you issued a Service Request number at all when you called (71-**********)?
Sarah, GM Customer Service
Sorry to hear that the AC noise came back. Keep us posted on your progress with your dealership as we're available if you should need anything.
Sarah, GM Customer Service
Want to send a quick reply here - long story, but our 07 Outlook is now entering week 3 at Gm dealer - with full host of electrical water damage - fuse box, wiring harness, ECU, etc... (I had to tell them where to look!) In our experience thus far, dealing with Gm social media will get you NOWHERE. They will reply briefly in email, no phone # ever, and will not even read your email, unfortunately. Our experince with 'sarah' and 'ashley' lead us to believe they are actually not human, and some sort of automated computer response. Though I don't know the specifics of your current situation, my best advice is to go through a Service Manager (not just the Service rep - has to be someone with some decision making ability) at your GM dealer. in our case, though yet unresolved, our service manager had his own contact at GM - wouldn't give a name or # - and had never heard of 'Ashley' or 'Sarah'. Our service manager had to 'build a case' for us, and convince GM to cover the repairs. Will post more here when our issue is resolved, if that happens, but hope that helps in some small way. I am convinced you are wasting your time with GM social media.
If you haven't heard back yet I would recommend trying to resend the message. My apologies that we haven't been speedier!
Sarah, GM Customer Service
You do only have 30 days to get the work done for the diagnostic to stay current. However, this is something that would normally be covered uner the bumper bumper warranty but it is expired due to both age and mileage on the vehicle. We apologize for the frustrations.
Brandon
GM Customer Service
Funny how convienent it is that it would "normally be covered"! If that's the case WHY are so many other people experiencing the same problems right after getting the vehicle and still can't get it fixed!! I will take your advise tallgolf and see if that will help us....this is just crazy! We are at a loss of what to do. Please keep me updated on your issue....Thanks!
After 5 weeks at GM dealer, got my Outlook back. As described before, they replaced seemingly every electronic component, Fuse box, wiring harness, ECU, etc. Again, to their credit, my local GM dealer went to bat for me with GM and I DID NOT PAY A DIME for this repair (a $3000 + estimate for repair) - I believe largely because I had already paid to have the leak repaired prior -and as we all know, the leak is not fixable. So, just prior this last round of repairs, I too did use some silicone sealant on both the sunroof and the moonroof - and I truly believe this was working - and in my case, it was the moonroof, not the sunroof. So, long story short GM, buy some $7 tubes of silicone and seal the you know what out of the moonroof! (though, I'm sure GM can't 'prescribe' this fix, as that would admit the problem exists, then lawyers get involved, etc..) I basically filled the 'gutter' of the moonroof with the silicone (a 'marine' type sealant) on the first dry day I could.
After getting the Outlook back, I had absolutely no faith that the problem was permanently solved, in fact the dealer admitted as much - only the broken parts fixed. Sadly, I gave up on GM and traded in the Outlook. Though I believe it is fixed in it's current state, I simply could not drive that car anymore, as there is no real guarantee it wouldn't leak again a year from now.
Good luck to you all.
The dealership covered this so I have no idea on cost.
Hope this helps anyone.
I really do love my Outlook, but I'm faced with the decision of a possible hefty dealership fix of many issues (that may or may not be related to the leak).
They believe all of the current problems I am having are from the leaking:
Parking brake light on when the parking brake isn't on
service air bag
engine issues (doesn't turn off when key is removed)
steering noise
back hatch won't automatically open.
They said that leaks aren't covered even if we are under warranty. The service rep even said "you've been bringing this car in since 2010 every 10 months for leaks." Yes, I have and every time I've asked if it will cause greater damage and have always been told "Nah, it's fine."
The car leaks from:
The driver and passenger side air bags
The parking break and same area passenger side
visors
inside the front windshield
the back seat belts
Any ideas of cost? Do we just start looking for another car? Will the dealership cut me a break since this isn't new?