Those that bought diesels when the price of fuel was higher than RUG are now laughing all the way to the bank. Nationwide diesel is within 10 cents of RUG. CA a lot cheaper and NE still paying the premium. They are using too much to heat with.
Given that VW had/has a US market share of app 2.4%, (which I read in passing some time in the past and may be more/less in MY 2009) I was surprised to read that VW's world wide goal is to eventually snag the numeral uno...'s spot.
This is a reversal on my part, but:
1. because of the other OEM's diesel delays 2. being very impressed with VW's (head and shoulders) upgraded 2009 MY (2003 MY as a baseline comparison) 3. starting in 2010 VW (I have read) is planning on fully 40% ( US Jetta models) being diesel 4. NOBODY has even matched VW's 12 year rust through warranty.(minor selling point, but really major practical one)
I would (NOW) take a more critical eye toward other oems' diesel products going forward. Indeed while I understand most would charge a premium for future diesel offerings, my .02 cents is an MSRP price would be a deal breaker. In fact for a particularly hot offering, invoice plus would be a so called "premium"
This is a radical shift for me as I felt as if I was taking a GIANT leap with the 2003 MY. I am actually looking forward to the 200,000 mile marker rolling over. I might need new brake pads by then !?
Went to the tax man yesterday. He had his wife's VW Beetle Convertible. Asked him where the Passat was at. Getting fixed from someone running into him. I said you should get the new Jetta TDI. He went and drove one and liked it. His response. My Passat only has 140k miles and runs like new. By the time you hit 200K maybe there will be more choices and easier dealing on VW TDI models. I would not hold my breath on the Japanese coming up with a decent diesel offering for the USA. They are still trying to break into the EU diesel market. Where it is a much easier sell.
..." I would not hold my breath on the Japanese coming up with a decent diesel offering for the USA. They are still trying to break into the EU diesel market. Where it is a much easier sell. "...
It really makes more sense for the Japanese oem's to perfect their diesels' to market in Europe than the US, for no other reason than they dominate (% and volume) here and gassers are 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
Lack of viable European market diesel models effectively limits their competitiveness. (their concepts, not mine) Mine is it threatens their very survival .Most that read these diesel boards know that the majority of the European passenger fleet has been diesel for at least a decade. (60% and growing)
Diesel options are limited to, OH, about ONE option for the Average Joe.
That is sad. You notice that is the only major automaker that had a nice big fat NET Profit in 2008. They must be doing something the others have missed. They are supposed to bring 4 more diesels to the USA this year. I'm hoping for the 2010 Audi A4 TDI. I could get used to owning that little wagon.
..."Diesel options are limited to, OH, about ONE option for the Average Joe. "...
Indeed you/the average Joe can thank those oem's that do not offer other... options: and/or delayed up to "indefinitely" promised diesel offerings !!?
Funny how the one that is actually offering the "other option" is making 4/5 BILLION, while the others NOT offering them are each losing BILLIONS !!!?? Those are HUGE deltas for only one option, eh?
Those "other" carmakers *do* infact offer diesel options IN OTHER COUNTRIES across the globe. (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Suberu, Dodge, Fiat ...etc) But their engines DO NOT meet US EPA emmissions requirements
VW is the ONLY carmaker who jumped thru all the flaming hoops that the EPA threw in front of it and offers a Diesel engine which meets EPA requirements for all 50 states without urea-injection. (Mercedies Benz uses urea-injection to meet EPA)
The VW "clean diesel" engine may be the most complicated/sophiticated engine ever offerd by VW. (or perhaps anyone else!) Only the test of time will tell us if that hugely-complicated engine will stand up to 100s of thousands miles use without major issues. Woe be to the VW clean-diesel owner who tries to save a buck by not using the proper engine-oil.
My 2003 TDI has only 100,000 miles on it and is still good for another 200,000 miles so I can wait to see the answer...
Will let you know in app 4 years !! This ones also got the DSG, (direct shift gearbox) and that seems to be the sub assembly (component) most folks are watching CLOSELY. The TB/WP change is now at 120,000 miles. No kits available on the aftermarket yet.
..."My 2003 TDI has only 100,000 miles on it and is still good for another 200,000 miles so I can wait to see the answer... "
Mines @ 114,000 miles. It actually is getting the best mileage than at earlier stages! I still like to push it so I only get 48-50 mpg. Again the 5 speed manual transmission's the weak link. but I have heard some gurus say 400,000 is a can do easy. Even if it is 600-700 and pop an VR6 upgrade clutch in. I was at a GTG where a guy had a Rocket Chip, and did a Bosio nozzle upgrade and was doing various other upgrades, so we stood there debating whether he should do the clutch upgrade @ 230,000 miles. I grilled him and based on his responses told him no and to wear it out with the new upgrades then change. Long story short, the shop offered a clutch special and he went home to get the parts ( clutch upgrade). When he came back, the shops guru and owner had that puppy out and it looked good to go for a min of another 200k.
They are just taking a little longer to get hit by the recession, that's all. Not a bunch of financial geniuses. They had a 1.3 percent rise in sales 2008 over 2007. Not exactly scintillating, eh?
But if they were THAT smart, we wouldn't be complaining all the time about not having diesel options in the USA.
That is funny. VW has $10Billion more profit in 2008 than number one Toyota. Of course GM with $38B in loss is off the map and close to bankruptcy. VW will not have $6Billion profit in 2009 only $1.1B and the stock goes down. Do you really think that any car company will make even close to VW in 2009? VW has proven in the rest of the World it builds what the people want. Americans are so fickle it has destroyed the D3 and crushed Toyota's fat profits from 2007.
VW builds the best diesel cars in the World. They are Number one in the EU. They build the best 100% ethanol cars for Brazil and are number one in Brazil. When they ramp up here over the next 5 years and take market share from the failed US companies they could very well be number one here. They are also number one in the largest current car market China. I think the tint on your Camry Hybrid windshield does not allow you to see the big picture. Toyota like GM could fall from the top. They have deep pockets just as GM had at one time.
..."Well, they might be running a fairly tight economic ship. But it's not like they are unquestioned geniuses."...
Well you do have a point here. The unquestioned genius/es are running the companies that are losing massive amounts of money and asking YOU for the bail out !!! Some times you really do get.... what you wish for. :P
Why are they not selling more diesel cars in America, where the desire for diesel cars is apparently higher than they realize?
Could it be they are smart enough to keep the supply even with demand. Unlike an unnamed Japanese company that has 1000s of hybrids sitting in storage and on ships at sea. Building 10 and selling 10 is more profitable than building 100 and only selling 50. The Germans are about to grant your wish with a nice Diesel Hybrid.
The E300 BlueTec diesel hybrid will utilize a 200-hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder diesel engine and a 20-hp electric motor - enabling the E300 BlueTec diesel hybrid to achieve around 46 mpg.
It sounds like you have gotten 1 of 2 cars (there are more of course) currently suited to your go and mostly stop type of environment/s.
Seems a plug in electric would be the ideal solution. However that is not even on the market yet.
As the GW cists' logic goes: why are you using a car anyway? That type of driving is really the worst.
Another is (for lack of the proper term/s) diesel shut off hardware and software when "excessively" idling has BEEN on the market. So this is not only in the purview of the Prius/ Civic hybrid.
As a practical matter, once your HCH is paid , it only makes sense to replace your 34 mpg fuel guzzler with a plug in electric or one that gets 3x or 102 mpg. Of course by then, your battery/repair bill/s will probably be.... interesting.
As most of the answers to your statements are off the diesel topic, I will stop now.
PS Toyota is predicting $18Billion in losses for 2009
Actually, it is predicting $4.5 billion losses for its annual report next month. Its fiscal year ends March 31.
VW has $10Billion more profit in 2008 than number one Toyota
Last year in April, Toyota reported a $15.9 billion profit. VW reported profits of $26 billion last year? I must have missed that.
Whatever VW may do in the rest of the world, it certainly has not made the sale to Americans, where it sells a mere trickle of cars comparatively speaking. I can't account for it, but I don't think that going whole hog on the TDI thing is going to substantially ramp up their sales here.
The TB/WP change is now at 120,000 miles
When will VW go back to timing chains like the rest of the world has? For me with the amount I drive, a 120K timing belt and water pump means I have to budget another $100-150 per year towards this cost.
I just think it's kind of odd timing to be making a big push towards diesel now, after all these years when it was non-existent in our market, and given that several other technologies are now right on the cusp, including full-electric cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But again, VW is making a profit. Audi has also increased its market share against all comparable brands, even though it is an also-ran here. I think VW is doing very well in the USA, considering how unfavorable the exchange rate has been, how well-equipped (and expensive) their least expensive cars here are, and that they never did cater to the big SUV and big pickup demands--where until last year, the bulk of the sales have been. On top of that, it was little more than a couple of years ago, that VW was seeing large losses and decided to turn things around. In time they will have more vehicles that the average American wants. But they are doing OK right now with smaller American numbers, higher prices, fewer incentives, and and not having to firesale overproduced units.
1. Billions in profit when almost ALL are losing billions AND are digging into your pocket/s for multiple bail outs while living high on the hog is truly a strategic achievement.
I think this might need to be over emphasized, given Larsb's (sarcastic) responses. He after all represents a certain "constituency" So truly point #1 merits at WORST, even a begrudging respect.
..."it certainly has not made the sale to Americans, where it sells a mere trickle of cars comparatively speaking. I can't account for it, but I don't think that going whole hog on the TDI thing is going to substantially ramp up their sales here."...
1b. HARD to fault the strategy , did you really expect (after point one) to increase the chances they will LOSE a TON money.... like the REST of THEM.... by having more inventory than they can sell??
Keep in mind MY sales are conservatively minus - 40% across the board !!!!??? ( 16.5 M in a good year vs 10 M PROJECTED) Some of the big 4 model lines are approaching minus - 60 % sales or lack there of.
2. For my .02 cents I would NOT want them to go to a chain drive system. I am a "convert" in that regard. The 100k/120k really serves as a "major tune up." I will grant you that the fact most dealerships mostly can't do a TB/WP CORRECTLY is a major issue, it does create "small business" entrepreneurial opportunities.
It depends how you feel about CR TDI's being 500 k to 1 M miles machines..
a. Chain drives do wear out and really do need replacing and are not as accurate without radically intense re engineering. So for example on the chain driven) MB E320/350, CR turbo diesel, requires (I read in passing) technical inspection and POSSIBLE replacement @ 170,000 miles? This machine is easily 2x more than the Jetta TDI.
b. price a chain drive replacement b1. before breaking b2. after breaking c. the additional problem is once you make it so called "maintenance free" it fades into "out of sight out of mind. This is fine if it does not break. However if it does break point b2 is WAY more expensive and unfortunately much more likely.
c. the additional problem is once you make it so called "maintenance free" it fades into "out of sight out of mind. This is fine if it does not break
Well, and so it should be - out of sight, out of mind. Chain drives get very noisy when they are nearing replacement time, they give you lots and lots of warning. But they usually go more than 200K miles in my experince, which brings me to another comment you made about TDIs being 500K to 1M mile machines.
Who is really keeping their cars this length of time? I have had Toyotas out to 250K with the original powertrain still intact, and I have been so deathly bored of them or so desirous of having a new car by then I sold them and moved on despite their longevity.
A timing chain with a 200K expected service interval is all I would expect engineering to foresee in terms of miles. But (and this is strictly a personal perspective, but I know I'm not the only one out there keeping me cars past 120K) I have taken every car I have had well beyond the 120K mile mark, which means I would be due for spending upwards of $1000 for my VW with TB/WP replacement and all the other items any car would require at that mileage.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So if I ready your post correctly, you want to increase( the sunk engineering and increased timing CHAIN replacement) costs almost exponentially with a greater chance for catastrophic failure, for an extra 50,000 to 80,000 miles of wear? For the stated reasons, we should agree to disagree here.
It would seem you are ignoring the same issue exists for GASSERS ( Honda's for example). My 04 Civic is due a TB/WP change @ 110,000 miles @ app the same cost as for a diesel. Sure I could have waited for the MY with the chain drive, but again the same principles.
If you are more into the throw away type mentality, increased resources use and increased costs, then for sure you are almost better off selling before EITHER the timing belt/ chain is due.
Unfortunately for the USED car buyer, another item for the buyer beware checklist.
It would seem you are ignoring the same issue exists for GASSERS ( Honda's for example). My 04 Civic is due a TB/WP change 110,000 miles app the same cost as for a diesel.
Yes, it was disgraceful that Honda continued to use the timing belt for the '01-'05 Civics. The SI did not, and neither did any of the other models Honda sold. They were very tardy there, but they did go back to a timing chain for all '06 Civics.
Yes, I think there are a great many people buying new that plan to still have the car at the 120K-mile mark, and very few who plan to still have it at 200K miles. I would bet it is at least 50% of all new car buyers. But we have already made much more of the TB/TC issue than I ever meant to, so with apologies I withdraw from that debate.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What you are saying is nothing more than "no change" to the average time and mileage data, the auto salvage industry (and other interested industry groups) keep. Defacto they almost all happen to be GASSERS (98%) .
So from memory, the average driver goes (pre current economic conditions) 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year with a 3.6% decrease (post)
The yearly salvage rate is app 7%. (- 17.9 M scraped- 255.7 M vehicles)
The average age of the fleet is 6.5 to 8.5 years old. (78,000 miles to 127,500)
So while I would also surmise ( and agree with you) that would be true if say 12-25% of the passenger vehicle fleet were diesel, the fact is and remains, the passenger diesel fleet is a much smaller subset, albeit less than 2% and probably more importantly different dynamics.
Some anecdotal information from GTG's, there are much greater numbers and percentages of diesels with much higher miles. The average age tends to be shorter as diesels have experienced short to long term banning and exclusion.
Unrelated to this would be what is the effect of the current economic conditions on the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet.?
One hypothesis: it would slow down (get older) as a percentage of overall passenger vehicle fleet growth in the context of slowing (gasser) overall growth, albeit 16.5 M MY sales to 10 M 2009 MY sales, aka minus- 40%. BUT it would paradoxically SPEED MY % diesel growth !? This of course creates a perfect storm for VW 2009 MY 25% of Jetta sales being diesel and the next year 2010 goal of 40% of sales being diesel. Upshot we still have a LONG way to 2% of the passenger diesel vehicle fleet. (sans light trucks)
I was basing my example on VWs $6B net profit for 2008. Combined with Toyota's $4B loss makes a $10B difference in Profit for 2008.
I think that VW is playing the US market very well. They have a past reliability problem to overcome. If VW follows through with plans to sell 40% of their Jettas with diesel that will be good. The Rabbit diesel and Touareg V6 diesel is due very soon. I am hoping the Tiguan gets the 4 cylinder TDI this year.
VW is down in sales, not down as much in profit. That shows they know something more than the other majors to me. -17% seems pretty mild next to GM's -51% and Toyota's -39%.
I am sure you can get a deal on a Jetta TDI right now. Not as as much as most other cars.
PS VW never gave up on diesel cars in the USA. They were limited in numbers sold in CA before 2004 and blocked until this year completely.
I think the TB on my Sequoia needs to be changed at 90K miles and it is a 2007. So Why did Toyota not use a chain for all the years past?
I don't recall such an expense on any GM truck engine for the 5 trucks I owned from 1988. Are you suggesting that GM engines were superior to Toyota up until 2008 when they did away with the TB?
VW is down in sales, not down as much in profit. That shows they know something more than the other majors to me. -17% seems pretty mild next to GM's -51% and Toyota's -39%.
Actually I think it's just a case of it's good to be small when a major recession hits. It's the Big 6 taking it in the shorts, not the small players. Mercedes almost had an up year, Subaru DID have an up year, I don't think either of them knows any special secret to automaking success, any more than VW does.
If you have the Sequoia with the 4.7 V-8, you have the very last Toyota to use a timing belt, except for the limited-run Solara convertible, and both use engines developed before 2000, which is why they still use those TBs. And yes, GM using a timing chain was superior to Toyota using a belt IMO, but the Toyota engine may have been superior in other ways. I don't know, I don't buy large trucks. And others may not prioritize this issue the way I do, so what I am saying is meant to be very subjective. I would certainly avoid buying anything new today that had a timing belt in it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
..."I would certainly avoid buying anything new today that had a timing belt in it. "...
You should have said that in the first place. However it still would be interesting to hear your research as to the costs to R/R a chain drive vs a TB in say a model you have. I already did ( more than three) and it is part of the reason for the "conversion". But I do have to say the time/mileage horizon is 450,000 miles for the Civic.
Wow, color me impressed - you plan to keep the Civic to 450K miles? The new car bug always bites me way before I can get to that kind of mileage.
The only time I have ever had a chance to compare costs on TB/TC replacement was about 15 years ago, on similar vintage Celicas - I had an '83 and an '86, and the '86 (using a belt) was $100 cheaper to replace than the '83, which used a chain.
But that was only because I asked out of curiosity - I had the '83 to 249K miles, and it was still running its original timing chain when I sold it. The TB on the '86 I paid several hundred $$ to replace, including the WP. That was in 1992 or something like that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
VW is down in sales, not down as much in profit. That shows they know something more than the other majors to me. -17% seems pretty mild next to GM's -51% and Toyota's -39%.
Actually I think it's just a case of it's good to be small when a major recession hits. It's the Big 6 taking it in the shorts, not the small players. Mercedes almost had an up year, Subaru DID have an up year, I don't think either of them knows any special secret to automaking success, any more than VW does.
Whaaaaaat?
Volkswagen Group, or Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft (German), (listed as Volkswagen AG) is a German automobile manufacturing group, currently the third largest automobile maker in the world[4], and the largest in Europe.
They are the biggest of the big boys, larger than most others.
They are the biggest of the big boys, larger than most others.
That is correct. They are now bigger than Ford. If GM and Toyota continue to miscalculate VW will be Numero Uno.
VW also has the best array of fuel efficient cars in the WORLD. It is only American's obsession with 0-60 MPH stats that has kept US in the dark ages of fuel efficiency.
"With California debating even tougher clean-fuel standards and the Obama administration's high-priority environmental goals, diesel vehicle demand will shift into a higher gear, analysts said.
In a so-called well-to-wheels study of fuels and their greenhouse-gas emissions, diesel vehicles outperformed comparable gasoline-powered vehicles, showing 15% lower emissions, according to the Energy Information Administration. However, diesel emissions were 20% to 25% higher than emissions from gasoline- or diesel-powered hybrid electric vehicles. Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles produced 16% to 32% less emissions than vehicles using diesel fuel.
Still, "on-road driving experience appears to suggest that, under some circumstances, diesel vehicles can achieve higher fuel efficiencies than comparable gasoline-powered hybrids," said the EIA, the statistical arm of the U.S. Department of Energy."
With less than 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet being diesel the overall effect of D2 is barely measurable to IM measurable, let alone statistically verifiable.. So another way of looking at it is because it is barely measurable they refuse to statistically verify it: ergo Self Fulfilling Prophesy.
So another spin off way to ask: since the Prius has been in say the LA area since 2003 or 6 years, who has done a statistically verifiable study on the Prius improving the over all air quality in the metro LA area? Ergo another inverted Self Fulfilling Prophesy?
Yes, I see now that I stated that poorly. I meant, the Big 6 depend on the U.S. as their number one market and have a lot of sales to lose in the U.S., and the U.S. is the one that tanked earliest and loudest. None of those niche players I mentioned could be very hurt by the U.S. because they sell more elsewhere. VW, while it is not a niche player globally, is a niche player in the U.S., hence its exposure to the auto slide here was very limited.
Limited exposure, not the perfect vehicle line-up or some well-guarded secret to the auto industry, is what helped VW and some other small automakers be less hurt by the downslide than the so-called Big 6.
I hereby note for the record (:-P) that the term Big 6 is very U.S.-centric, because the Big 6 I mean do not include the world's 6 biggest sellers, one of which is certainly VW.
OK VW, STUN us with your magic diesels, and let's see if you can sell more total vehicles this year than Toyota sells Camrys alone. And then we will compare full fiscal year results in 2010. :-P
Diesel is finally down to the same price as regular unleaded here in my little suburban town. Too bad none of VW's super-duper cheap leases include the Jetta diesel.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
who has done a statistically verifiable study on the Prius improving the over all air quality in the metro LA area?
I don't see anything in a quick search but it's a great question. Toyota should do such a study and run ads (assuming that Prius sales have in fact reduced air pollution).
Or VW could do one touting clean diesel in one of the European markets where they have significant cars registered.
Is your post a plea, apology, rambling or rant? :confuse:
I read this in passing in any number of places. UPSHOT: 1. 40% production 20% market share. massive LOSS!!!! WOW quite the surprise? 2. In addition management agreed to unsustainable costs that labor pushed for, 3. even if they sold ALL of the so called "overproduction" ! 4. So now management and labor want those that did NOT buy their products to pay for the products,... they didnt buy??? 5. If I did that I'd be prosecuted for grand theft auto, a felony!!?? I am not sure it takes a lot of explanation!? 6. In addition, add to that addition legacy costs that EXCEED the cost of raw materials to make the new cars.
Hey, this is an on-line forum, I am allowed to do all four in one post! :-P
If BMW would import its 123d 3-door to the States, I would be MUCH more interested in diesels, all of a sudden. :-)
The 335d is a case of ridiculous engine overkill, and consequent overpricing.
If Mini imported its Cooper diesel to the States, it would all but GUARANTEE there would be a diesel in my driveway.
I'm just not a big fan of VWs. If the Japanese would import a genuinely sporty car with a hybrid powertrain and a stick shift, I would forget diesels even EXISTED.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If the Japanese would import a genuinely sporty car with a hybrid powertrain and a stick shift, I would forget diesels even EXISTED.
Kind of an oxymoron. Take one underpowered gas engine, then add an electric engine and a heavy battery pack to compensate for the underpowered gas engine, and just to make sure the drivetrain never works in harmony, lets not have any computers controlling it and have the driver do it...
Hybrids are good at point a to point b transportation, and some are good at providing excellent fuel mileage, but I have yet to see anything resembling sporty.
You got that right. Why would any one think a hybrid is sporty. Even most diesels are not what I would consider sporty. They are the best source of power for cruising the highways and byways. Also off road where lots of low end torque is great. They do not blast off the line like a gas engine. Though the 335D does get to 60 in about 6 seconds.
To me the main reasons for owning a diesel or even a hybrid if you must is superior fuel mileage. That pretty much means NO 0-60 sprints if you want that tank to be a good one. And maybe my favorite is long time between fuel stops. I hate the smell of RUG that permeates so many gas stations. It is so noxious and toxic.
the 335d does 0-60 in about FIVE seconds. Apparently the tiny little 123d does it even faster: 201 hp and 295 lb-ft from a 2L turbo diesel pushing a little hatchback weighing less than 3000 pounds. Yesss! :-)
No lilengineer, it doesn't HAVE to be Japanese, but I think they are the only candidates likely to design and sell such a vehicle.
Numerous magazines, gagrice, have pointed out that having a hybrid electric powertrain is essentially like having electric turbo-charging that makes its max torque at 0 rpm. That should interest even you. If they make a light 2-seat sport coupe or sports car and give it a small gas engine with a decent-size electric motor, it could be very fun while making better than 40 mpg. The fact that they haven't yet is merely because they had to sell people on hybrids' fuel economy first. Well, it has been a decade since that first hybrid was sold here, it's time for some branching out, and a sport hybrid could be one way to do so. Honda's CRZ should prove to be just such a car, as they have insisted it will be hybrid-powered, but the manual shifter is a lot less certain.
I guess I might be sorta interested if VW sold a diesel GTI that could run with the 2.0T, but I can't even IMAGINE how huge the pricetag would be on that one. :sick:
A 370Z with the 6-cylinder diesel they were going to put in the Maxima would be an awfully interesting car to test out, but I fear it would be well into the $30Ks, and hence out of my price range.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We did 700 miles today @43 mpg. It was a climb to 4200 ft and back down to sea level. Mt Shasta is covered in snow. Three folks in the car and the trunk packed to the gills. I did the climb @app 80-85 up highway 5.It rained a lot of the travel day. This 09 VW Jetta TDI is a pretty neat road machine.
Comments
This is a reversal on my part, but:
1. because of the other OEM's diesel delays
2. being very impressed with VW's (head and shoulders) upgraded 2009 MY (2003 MY as a baseline comparison)
3. starting in 2010 VW (I have read) is planning on fully 40% ( US Jetta models) being diesel
4. NOBODY has even matched VW's 12 year rust through warranty.(minor selling point, but really major practical one)
I would (NOW) take a more critical eye toward other oems' diesel products going forward. Indeed while I understand most would charge a premium for future diesel offerings, my .02 cents is an MSRP price would be a deal breaker. In fact for a particularly hot offering, invoice plus would be a so called "premium"
This is a radical shift for me as I felt as if I was taking a GIANT leap with the 2003 MY. I am actually looking forward to the 200,000 mile marker rolling over. I might need new brake pads by then !?
It really makes more sense for the Japanese oem's to perfect their diesels' to market in Europe than the US, for no other reason than they dominate (% and volume) here and gassers are 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
Lack of viable European market diesel models effectively limits their competitiveness. (their concepts, not mine) Mine is it threatens their very survival .Most that read these diesel boards know that the majority of the European passenger fleet has been diesel for at least a decade. (60% and growing)
Me too, for the time being.
Diesel options are limited to, OH, about ONE option for the Average Joe.
That is sad. You notice that is the only major automaker that had a nice big fat NET Profit in 2008. They must be doing something the others have missed. They are supposed to bring 4 more diesels to the USA this year. I'm hoping for the 2010 Audi A4 TDI. I could get used to owning that little wagon.
Indeed you/the average Joe can thank those oem's that do not offer other... options: and/or delayed up to "indefinitely" promised diesel offerings !!?
Funny how the one that is actually offering the "other option" is making 4/5 BILLION, while the others NOT offering them are each losing BILLIONS !!!?? Those are HUGE deltas for only one option, eh?
VW is the ONLY carmaker who jumped thru all the flaming hoops that the EPA threw in front of it and offers a Diesel engine which meets EPA requirements for all 50 states without urea-injection. (Mercedies Benz uses urea-injection to meet EPA)
The VW "clean diesel" engine may be the most complicated/sophiticated engine ever offerd by VW. (or perhaps anyone else!) Only the test of time will tell us if that hugely-complicated engine will stand up to 100s of thousands miles use without major issues.
Woe be to the VW clean-diesel owner who tries to save a buck by not using the proper engine-oil.
My 2003 TDI has only 100,000 miles on it and is still good for another 200,000 miles so I can wait to see the answer...
..."My 2003 TDI has only 100,000 miles on it and is still good for another 200,000 miles so I can wait to see the answer... "
Mines @ 114,000 miles. It actually is getting the best mileage than at earlier stages! I still like to push it so I only get 48-50 mpg. Again the 5 speed manual transmission's the weak link. but I have heard some gurus say 400,000 is a can do easy. Even if it is 600-700 and pop an VR6 upgrade clutch in. I was at a GTG where a guy had a Rocket Chip, and did a Bosio nozzle upgrade and was doing various other upgrades, so we stood there debating whether he should do the clutch upgrade @ 230,000 miles. I grilled him and based on his responses told him no and to wear it out with the new upgrades then change. Long story short, the shop offered a clutch special and he went home to get the parts ( clutch upgrade). When he came back, the shops guru and owner had that puppy out and it looked good to go for a min of another 200k.
201 HP, 295 ft-lbs of torque and, on the test drive, 39 MPG.
All that plus BMW ride and handling.
What's not to like?
But if they were THAT smart, we wouldn't be complaining all the time about not having diesel options in the USA.
18March2009-Report on 2009 profit drop hits VW shares
VW builds the best diesel cars in the World. They are Number one in the EU. They build the best 100% ethanol cars for Brazil and are number one in Brazil. When they ramp up here over the next 5 years and take market share from the failed US companies they could very well be number one here. They are also number one in the largest current car market China. I think the tint on your Camry Hybrid windshield does not allow you to see the big picture. Toyota like GM could fall from the top. They have deep pockets just as GM had at one time.
Toyota is predicting $18Billion in losses for 2009. Makes that $1.1B profit look pretty darn good to me the investor.
Why are they not selling more diesel cars in America, where the desire for diesel cars is apparently higher than they realize?
Why are their cars not rated higher in owner satisfaction/reliability?
Why are they so far down the popularity tree in America?
Have they decided to spend their efforts to "rule the rest of the world and ignore American buyers?"
Where's the Polo Diesel? Where is the diesel Passat?
Don't try to make it look like they are so smart. Running a good economic ship does not make them the "best carmaker" by any means.
Well you do have a point here. The unquestioned genius/es are running the companies that are losing massive amounts of money and asking YOU for the bail out !!! Some times you really do get.... what you wish for. :P
Lathering the sarcasm a bit thick today, eh?
Could it be they are smart enough to keep the supply even with demand. Unlike an unnamed Japanese company that has 1000s of hybrids sitting in storage and on ships at sea. Building 10 and selling 10 is more profitable than building 100 and only selling 50. The Germans are about to grant your wish with a nice Diesel Hybrid.
The E300 BlueTec diesel hybrid will utilize a 200-hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder diesel engine and a 20-hp electric motor - enabling the E300 BlueTec diesel hybrid to achieve around 46 mpg.
The E300 BlueTec falls short in two of those three areas.
VW could do that with a Polo diesel hybrid.
Besides the Polo TDI gets 60+ MPG highway without all the hybrid crap to shorten its lifespan...
Seems a plug in electric would be the ideal solution. However that is not even on the market yet.
As the GW cists' logic goes: why are you using a car anyway? That type of driving is really the worst.
Another is (for lack of the proper term/s) diesel shut off hardware and software when "excessively" idling has BEEN on the market. So this is not only in the purview of the Prius/ Civic hybrid.
As a practical matter, once your HCH is paid , it only makes sense to replace your 34 mpg fuel guzzler with a plug in electric or one that gets 3x or 102 mpg. Of course by then, your battery/repair bill/s will probably be.... interesting.
As most of the answers to your statements are off the diesel topic, I will stop now.
PS
Toyota is predicting $18Billion in losses for 2009
Actually, it is predicting $4.5 billion losses for its annual report next month. Its fiscal year ends March 31.
VW has $10Billion more profit in 2008 than number one Toyota
Last year in April, Toyota reported a $15.9 billion profit. VW reported profits of $26 billion last year? I must have missed that.
Whatever VW may do in the rest of the world, it certainly has not made the sale to Americans, where it sells a mere trickle of cars comparatively speaking. I can't account for it, but I don't think that going whole hog on the TDI thing is going to substantially ramp up their sales here.
The TB/WP change is now at 120,000 miles
When will VW go back to timing chains like the rest of the world has? For me with the amount I drive, a 120K timing belt and water pump means I have to budget another $100-150 per year towards this cost.
I just think it's kind of odd timing to be making a big push towards diesel now, after all these years when it was non-existent in our market, and given that several other technologies are now right on the cusp, including full-electric cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. Billions in profit when almost ALL are losing billions AND are digging into your pocket/s for multiple bail outs while living high on the hog is truly a strategic achievement.
I think this might need to be over emphasized, given Larsb's (sarcastic) responses. He after all represents a certain "constituency" So truly point #1 merits at WORST, even a begrudging respect.
..."it certainly has not made the sale to Americans, where it sells a mere trickle of cars comparatively speaking. I can't account for it, but I don't think that going whole hog on the TDI thing is going to substantially ramp up their sales here."...
1b. HARD to fault the strategy , did you really expect (after point one) to increase the chances they will LOSE a TON money.... like the REST of THEM.... by having more inventory than they can sell??
Keep in mind MY sales are conservatively minus - 40% across the board !!!!??? ( 16.5 M in a good year vs 10 M PROJECTED) Some of the big 4 model lines are approaching minus - 60 % sales or lack there of.
2. For my .02 cents I would NOT want them to go to a chain drive system. I am a "convert" in that regard. The 100k/120k really serves as a "major tune up." I will grant you that the fact most dealerships mostly can't do a TB/WP CORRECTLY is a major issue, it does create "small business" entrepreneurial opportunities.
It depends how you feel about CR TDI's being 500 k to 1 M miles machines..
a. Chain drives do wear out and really do need replacing and are not as accurate without radically intense re engineering. So for example on the chain driven) MB E320/350, CR turbo diesel, requires (I read in passing) technical inspection and POSSIBLE replacement @ 170,000 miles? This machine is easily 2x more than the Jetta TDI.
b. price a chain drive replacement
b1. before breaking
b2. after breaking
c. the additional problem is once you make it so called "maintenance free" it fades into "out of sight out of mind. This is fine if it does not break. However if it does break point b2 is WAY more expensive and unfortunately much more likely.
Well, and so it should be - out of sight, out of mind. Chain drives get very noisy when they are nearing replacement time, they give you lots and lots of warning. But they usually go more than 200K miles in my experince, which brings me to another comment you made about TDIs being 500K to 1M mile machines.
Who is really keeping their cars this length of time? I have had Toyotas out to 250K with the original powertrain still intact, and I have been so deathly bored of them or so desirous of having a new car by then I sold them and moved on despite their longevity.
A timing chain with a 200K expected service interval is all I would expect engineering to foresee in terms of miles. But (and this is strictly a personal perspective, but I know I'm not the only one out there keeping me cars past 120K) I have taken every car I have had well beyond the 120K mile mark, which means I would be due for spending upwards of $1000 for my VW with TB/WP replacement and all the other items any car would require at that mileage.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It would seem you are ignoring the same issue exists for GASSERS ( Honda's for example). My 04 Civic is due a TB/WP change @ 110,000 miles @ app the same cost as for a diesel. Sure I could have waited for the MY with the chain drive, but again the same principles.
If you are more into the throw away type mentality, increased resources use and increased costs, then for sure you are almost better off selling before EITHER the timing belt/ chain is due.
Unfortunately for the USED car buyer, another item for the buyer beware checklist.
Yes, it was disgraceful that Honda continued to use the timing belt for the '01-'05 Civics. The SI did not, and neither did any of the other models Honda sold. They were very tardy there, but they did go back to a timing chain for all '06 Civics.
Yes, I think there are a great many people buying new that plan to still have the car at the 120K-mile mark, and very few who plan to still have it at 200K miles. I would bet it is at least 50% of all new car buyers. But we have already made much more of the TB/TC issue than I ever meant to, so with apologies I withdraw from that debate.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So from memory, the average driver goes (pre current economic conditions) 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year with a 3.6% decrease (post)
The yearly salvage rate is app 7%. (- 17.9 M scraped- 255.7 M vehicles)
The average age of the fleet is 6.5 to 8.5 years old. (78,000 miles to 127,500)
So while I would also surmise ( and agree with you) that would be true if say 12-25% of the passenger vehicle fleet were diesel, the fact is and remains, the passenger diesel fleet is a much smaller subset, albeit less than 2% and probably more importantly different dynamics.
Some anecdotal information from GTG's, there are much greater numbers and percentages of diesels with much higher miles. The average age tends to be shorter as diesels have experienced short to long term banning and exclusion.
Unrelated to this would be what is the effect of the current economic conditions on the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet.?
One hypothesis: it would slow down (get older) as a percentage of overall passenger vehicle fleet growth in the context of slowing (gasser) overall growth, albeit 16.5 M MY sales to 10 M 2009 MY sales, aka minus- 40%. BUT it would paradoxically SPEED MY % diesel growth !? This of course creates a perfect storm for VW 2009 MY 25% of Jetta sales being diesel and the next year 2010 goal of 40% of sales being diesel. Upshot we still have a LONG way to 2% of the passenger diesel vehicle fleet. (sans light trucks)
Good idea, thanks. (Used Car Buying Checklist)
I think that VW is playing the US market very well. They have a past reliability problem to overcome. If VW follows through with plans to sell 40% of their Jettas with diesel that will be good. The Rabbit diesel and Touareg V6 diesel is due very soon. I am hoping the Tiguan gets the 4 cylinder TDI this year.
VW is down in sales, not down as much in profit. That shows they know something more than the other majors to me. -17% seems pretty mild next to GM's -51% and Toyota's -39%.
I am sure you can get a deal on a Jetta TDI right now. Not as as much as most other cars.
PS
VW never gave up on diesel cars in the USA. They were limited in numbers sold in CA before 2004 and blocked until this year completely.
I don't recall such an expense on any GM truck engine for the 5 trucks I owned from 1988. Are you suggesting that GM engines were superior to Toyota up until 2008 when they did away with the TB?
Actually I think it's just a case of it's good to be small when a major recession hits. It's the Big 6 taking it in the shorts, not the small players. Mercedes almost had an up year, Subaru DID have an up year, I don't think either of them knows any special secret to automaking success, any more than VW does.
If you have the Sequoia with the 4.7 V-8, you have the very last Toyota to use a timing belt, except for the limited-run Solara convertible, and both use engines developed before 2000, which is why they still use those TBs. And yes, GM using a timing chain was superior to Toyota using a belt IMO, but the Toyota engine may have been superior in other ways. I don't know, I don't buy large trucks. And others may not prioritize this issue the way I do, so what I am saying is meant to be very subjective. I would certainly avoid buying anything new today that had a timing belt in it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You should have said that in the first place. However it still would be interesting to hear your research as to the costs to R/R a chain drive vs a TB in say a model you have. I already did ( more than three) and it is part of the reason for the "conversion". But I do have to say the time/mileage horizon is 450,000 miles for the Civic.
The only time I have ever had a chance to compare costs on TB/TC replacement was about 15 years ago, on similar vintage Celicas - I had an '83 and an '86, and the '86 (using a belt) was $100 cheaper to replace than the '83, which used a chain.
But that was only because I asked out of curiosity - I had the '83 to 249K miles, and it was still running its original timing chain when I sold it. The TB on the '86 I paid several hundred $$ to replace, including the WP. That was in 1992 or something like that.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually I think it's just a case of it's good to be small when a major recession hits. It's the Big 6 taking it in the shorts, not the small players. Mercedes almost had an up year, Subaru DID have an up year, I don't think either of them knows any special secret to automaking success, any more than VW does.
Whaaaaaat?
Volkswagen Group, or Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft (German), (listed as Volkswagen AG) is a German automobile manufacturing group, currently the third largest automobile maker in the world[4], and the largest in Europe.
They are the biggest of the big boys, larger than most others.
That is correct. They are now bigger than Ford. If GM and Toyota continue to miscalculate VW will be Numero Uno.
VW also has the best array of fuel efficient cars in the WORLD. It is only American's obsession with 0-60 MPH stats that has kept US in the dark ages of fuel efficiency.
In a so-called well-to-wheels study of fuels and their greenhouse-gas emissions, diesel vehicles outperformed comparable gasoline-powered vehicles, showing 15% lower emissions, according to the Energy Information Administration. However, diesel emissions were 20% to 25% higher than emissions from gasoline- or diesel-powered hybrid electric vehicles. Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles produced 16% to 32% less emissions than vehicles using diesel fuel.
Still, "on-road driving experience appears to suggest that, under some circumstances, diesel vehicles can achieve higher fuel efficiencies than comparable gasoline-powered hybrids," said the EIA, the statistical arm of the U.S. Department of Energy."
Diesel Finds Role In US Clean Fuels Mix (Downstreamtoday)
So another spin off way to ask: since the Prius has been in say the LA area since 2003 or 6 years, who has done a statistically verifiable study on the Prius improving the over all air quality in the metro LA area? Ergo another inverted Self Fulfilling Prophesy?
Yes, I see now that I stated that poorly. I meant, the Big 6 depend on the U.S. as their number one market and have a lot of sales to lose in the U.S., and the U.S. is the one that tanked earliest and loudest. None of those niche players I mentioned could be very hurt by the U.S. because they sell more elsewhere. VW, while it is not a niche player globally, is a niche player in the U.S., hence its exposure to the auto slide here was very limited.
Limited exposure, not the perfect vehicle line-up or some well-guarded secret to the auto industry, is what helped VW and some other small automakers be less hurt by the downslide than the so-called Big 6.
I hereby note for the record (:-P) that the term Big 6 is very U.S.-centric, because the Big 6 I mean do not include the world's 6 biggest sellers, one of which is certainly VW.
OK VW, STUN us with your magic diesels, and let's see if you can sell more total vehicles this year than Toyota sells Camrys alone. And then we will compare full fiscal year results in 2010. :-P
Diesel is finally down to the same price as regular unleaded here in my little suburban town. Too bad none of VW's super-duper cheap leases include the Jetta diesel.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't see anything in a quick search but it's a great question. Toyota should do such a study and run ads (assuming that Prius sales have in fact reduced air pollution).
Or VW could do one touting clean diesel in one of the European markets where they have significant cars registered.
I read this in passing in any number of places. UPSHOT: 1. 40% production 20% market share. massive LOSS!!!! WOW quite the surprise? 2. In addition management agreed to unsustainable costs that labor pushed for, 3. even if they sold ALL of the so called "overproduction" ! 4. So now management and labor want those that did NOT buy their products to pay for the products,... they didnt buy??? 5. If I did that I'd be prosecuted for grand theft auto, a felony!!?? I am not sure it takes a lot of explanation!? 6. In addition, add to that addition legacy costs that EXCEED the cost of raw materials to make the new cars.
Hey, this is an on-line forum, I am allowed to do all four in one post! :-P
If BMW would import its 123d 3-door to the States, I would be MUCH more interested in diesels, all of a sudden. :-)
The 335d is a case of ridiculous engine overkill, and consequent overpricing.
If Mini imported its Cooper diesel to the States, it would all but GUARANTEE there would be a diesel in my driveway.
I'm just not a big fan of VWs. If the Japanese would import a genuinely sporty car with a hybrid powertrain and a stick shift, I would forget diesels even EXISTED.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Kind of an oxymoron. Take one underpowered gas engine, then add an electric engine and a heavy battery pack to compensate for the underpowered gas engine, and just to make sure the drivetrain never works in harmony, lets not have any computers controlling it and have the driver do it...
Hybrids are good at point a to point b transportation, and some are good at providing excellent fuel mileage, but I have yet to see anything resembling sporty.
Does it have to be a Japanese vehicle?
You got that right. Why would any one think a hybrid is sporty. Even most diesels are not what I would consider sporty. They are the best source of power for cruising the highways and byways. Also off road where lots of low end torque is great. They do not blast off the line like a gas engine. Though the 335D does get to 60 in about 6 seconds.
To me the main reasons for owning a diesel or even a hybrid if you must is superior fuel mileage. That pretty much means NO 0-60 sprints if you want that tank to be a good one. And maybe my favorite is long time between fuel stops. I hate the smell of RUG that permeates so many gas stations. It is so noxious and toxic.
Diesel fumes do not have the toxicity of RUG.....
No lilengineer, it doesn't HAVE to be Japanese, but I think they are the only candidates likely to design and sell such a vehicle.
Numerous magazines, gagrice, have pointed out that having a hybrid electric powertrain is essentially like having electric turbo-charging that makes its max torque at 0 rpm. That should interest even you. If they make a light 2-seat sport coupe or sports car and give it a small gas engine with a decent-size electric motor, it could be very fun while making better than 40 mpg. The fact that they haven't yet is merely because they had to sell people on hybrids' fuel economy first. Well, it has been a decade since that first hybrid was sold here, it's time for some branching out, and a sport hybrid could be one way to do so. Honda's CRZ should prove to be just such a car, as they have insisted it will be hybrid-powered, but the manual shifter is a lot less certain.
I guess I might be sorta interested if VW sold a diesel GTI that could run with the 2.0T, but I can't even IMAGINE how huge the pricetag would be on that one. :sick:
A 370Z with the 6-cylinder diesel they were going to put in the Maxima would be an awfully interesting car to test out, but I fear it would be well into the $30Ks, and hence out of my price range.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)