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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2012
    There was still too much volleying going on to declare a winnah.

    Here you go - make a hot diesel that appeals to women. That'll mainstream the fuel.

    VW "says this is the sportiest application of its TDI powerplant, and consumers will be offered a choice between a traditional six-speed manual or VW's six-speed dual-clutch DSG transmission."

    2013 Beetle TDI debuts as Volkswagen's sportiest diesel (autoblog.com)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My wife loves that new Beetle. So it may be our main runabout in the near future. Still not what I would want for long trips.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Your wife? This was supposed to be the "manly" Beetle.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Road & Track says the Man Beetle still loses out to the Mini Cooper. (turbo vs. turbo).
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    My daughter had the base 2002 Gl model. She got it when she left for college and really liked the car. Her's was the base unit...gas, no frills, even hand crank windows, which some of her friends had never seen in a car and asked her if they were extra cost options.

    Her biggest complaint was the lack of rear passenger headroom for anyone over 5'6".

    Other than that, she really liked the car, and kept it for 7 years.

    I would think the newer TDI model would be a really nice car, based on her experience.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    I think that is why the car (2013) appears more bulbous. I haven't decided if I like the look of it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    It would be interesting to see a TDI vs TDI comparo. Clearly size wise, they appeal to different market segments. I have only seen one MiniCooper in the US. I don't even know if it is on the market. It had the full on attention getting graphics and made special note to indicate a TDI. It does not appear that MiniCooper will bring a diesel to the US market. I have read in passing that 30k would have to be the price tag.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah, a $32,000 subcompact diesel car is a loser in the USA, no matter how cute. That's too much money for a small TD. Besides a non-S mini gasser can duke it out pretty well with a Jetta TDI on MPG as it is. You'd save maybe $100 a year on the Jetta over the Mini on fuel per annum. Even if we gave the Jetta a 20% bump over EPA, and kept the MINI to EPA, and even if we put the MINI's gas cost per gallon at 10 cents more per gallon, we're still only talking about $300 a year difference.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    Yes, I am sure the John Cooper Works (29,900) and Clubman's pricing (31,400) stretches the MiniCooper pricing envelope.

    LOL. No report.

    As I think you posted earlier (Edmunds.com survey?), only a small minority of folks (6%) make buying decisions with mpg as a higher priority. The past mpg discussions are just a microcosm of that BIGGER picture. Now that is not to say that people don't SAY they want better mpg. It is just more often than not, doesn't convert. Here is an easy (like for like model) comparison. Listed on wwwfueleconomy.gov 2003 Jetta's

    24.5 mpg, PUG VR6,
    27.5 mpg, PUG 1.8T,
    29.9 mpg , RUG 2.0,
    46.4 mpg, ULSD 1.9 TDI

    This is NOT an easy to do, as not many OEM's do as VW does. That year most cars were gassers and the ULSD products were 4%.

    FF to models years 2009 and up ULSD are still a minority segment, albeit 25%.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I agree. Everyone talks FE, but they don't let it get in their way when they find a vehicle that they really like the look and feel of...

    I'm curious to see what happens to the BMW 3 series lineup. I've seen a couple of articles about them no longer offering the 335d in the US in the near future, because it's lost a lot of its FE advantage over the new 4 cylinder turbo gas engine.

    Of course, they could import 4 cylinder diesels in the 3 series, but will they?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    To me that is the apples to oranges comparison !!! The BMW 335 D was and remained a sleeper but nevertheless MONSTER. YET (to be kind and PC) sales were FAR from what was expected. Tsk Tsk, they even had to provide incentives (aka discounts.), something I am sure took BMW by complete surprise.

    I actually spend 5 hours (separate times) and a full day (they let me take it home overnight) with it and I was literally almost thoroughly impressed. 425 # ft of torque in a "small car," AW AW AW. This is a supremely competent road/touring car. It really was not cut out for the majority of miles my wife was going to put on it (commuting) No way THOSE tires were going to last much longer than 30,000 from the usual 112,300 miles. This is not to mention the higher freight at 3.74 times more frequent.

    I think the new BMW 3 series "sipper" is probably an attempt to recover and a marketing experiment. It is certainly far LESS fun and capable, but wholly satisfactory for its target market.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I could certainly be wrong about this but judging from a) surveys of consumer wants in Europe b) new gas engine technology coming on line and c) current energy policies in the USA, I'm thinkin' that gasoline engines are about to (once again) kick the stuffings out of diesels in the U. S. market, and perhaps in Europe as well.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    No not at all. The gauntlet was thrown down years ago. I think it was really just recently they were able to get the new generation products to market. Diesels are not standing still either. Yet it remains to be seen if the new motors and drive trains are both durable and reliable. The real unmentioned hidden in plain sight secret is they can no longer rely on the old so called slush box automatic. The DSG (10+ years in the Euro markets) put everybody on notice about the mpg advantage, (aka low hanging fruit) So for example, if you look at the EPA of say the 2002 VW Beetle (slush box auto) vs 5 speed manual, from memory (which can be faulty) there is app 7 mpg disadvantage. F/F to 2011/2012, say TDI Jetta and the EPAs for the 6 speed manuals and DSG's are @ par. Now 6 speed manuals hold the RANGE advantage, but obviously the (7 mpg) gain is significant.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They did away with my favorite color, Gecko Green, so not sure I could get excited about the new Beetle. I think the Golf TDI is more practical.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    Neighbor has the screaming YELLOW !! . Yeah, my wish list is the Golf 2 door GDI (Golf GTI equivalent) or more practically the Touareg TDI.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2012
    Everyone talks FE, but they don't let it get in their way

    I think you can substitute "safety" for fuel economy too. Everyone talks about it until it's time to buy. So the government gets involved - otherwise I wonder if we'd even have many seatbelts installed, much less air bags and DFI and other fun mpg tweaks.

    In shocking (not) news, Diesel prices near record high.

    Well, that's from the London UK Evening Standard. Here in the US, it's averaging $3.943 a gallon. California, naturally, is highest, running $4.0209. Crude hit $100 a barrel too. (Land Line)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I loved the 335d performance, but I never understood why is was limited to the sedan. I know 2 owners of 335d's and they love them. Interestingly enough, mpg was secondary to them. Both of them bought the car because of its performance. I guess, in their mind, maybe is was a cheap man's M3 sedan.

    If it had been available, I would have bought my 2010 328 convertible with that diesel. I'm still a little bummed out about it, but I usually get over it on a sunny day when I have the lid lowered.

    IMO, a large part of nixing the 6 and replacing it with a turbo four had to do with fleet mpg averages to placate the government.

    I haven't seen the new F model 3 series "live" yet, but next Monday my local BMW dealer is having an open house to draw in potential buyers, and they are going to have a new 3 sedan on the floor.

    Plus... Free eats, so I'm thinking that I'm going...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I dunno.... It's gonna take some slick salespeople to convert The Germans I know from diesel to gas, but I guess anything is possible.

    On a related topic, the Feb.6, 2012 issue of Time magazine had a 1 page story on the "true cost" of hybrids/plugins ...

    Based on a car life of 100,000 miles, they said the cost to drive a mile was...

    Honda CR-Z. .29
    Mitsubishi MiEV. .34
    Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. ..35
    Volt. .35
    Prius Plug-in. .36
    Leaf. .41
    Chevy Silverado. .56

    Other than saying the cost was based on gas going for $3.38/gallon, and that it included the cost of an in home charger for electric vehicles, that was about all the detail given about how the numbers were derived.

    What do you think? Do the numbers look realistic?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Kind of difficult to tell on the plugins and EVs. When electric rates across the nation vary from a nickel to 35 cents or more per KWH the difference is huge. EVs should have the lowest maintenance.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    Again I think it tied into risk management on the front end. They probably wanted to test the diesel market without full integration into the product line. If there was overwhelming support, I think they would have started the integration. BMW likes to give you the feeling things can be semi custom, The pulling of the diesel option demonstrates it is really not. Like you, the sedan would not be MY first choice. But then again, if you are going to road and or tour that car, 4 door sedans make a lot of sense. My choice would be 2 door and 6 speed ) automatic only) etc etc. . My CPA would probably want a drop top and an automatic. The real shame is that automatic is well designed and robust.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those engines were not prone to sludge, what I said was it wasn't common.

    You seem to rely on outliers for many of your arguments. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would agree. I have never gotten a straight answer about the KWH to mpg conversion. They could even post an on line app and all you would have to do is plug in the figures cents per kWh, mpg, cost of fuels, etc. to get equivalent mpg.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    Mine and - minus 4,000 (at that time) would beg to differ (on a car worth 4,500) . how do owners who didn't have the problem help? Discussions with other owners, it was one of the common issues. At that time everyone thought they were the statistical anomalies. Like I said if they had picked up the tab or even paid partially, I would have said good on Toyota, buy another. (sludge monster) . So like I said subsequently, I have had ZERO sludge monster issues, for I avoided that type of engine for the last 27 MY's. Engine oil was changed by the VERY same dealer that fixed the SLUDGE issue (and many others)with 2 to 3k oil changes. Now my Toyota's I 6's have never been sludge monsters. They have run 15,000 to 20,000 OCI's for years and many miles.

    Indeed the question could have been deleted. Again you can also delete my response.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    edited February 2012
    Second dead horse being unmercifully beaten by the champion of outliers.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Oh, man, I would never go 20k miles between oil changes.

    I never felt that lucky.

    Besides, I do my own oil changes, and a few quarts of oil and a filter don't seem that expensive to me.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    That was my opinion. They listed the cost per gallon of gas, but omitted the cost per KwH.

    Overall, not very informative.

    I agree on the EV maintenance. An electric motor should run fault free for a very long time, with no oil changes...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the EV also has to be considered in terms of ease of repair in collision and degradation in severe weather. Extreme temperatures kill batteries, and that's a fact.

    Diesels in Germany -- I dunno, if that Germany-wide survey is to be believed, Germans are much hotter on gas engines than diesels, by a fair margin.

    I think diesels thrived in Europe out of necessity, not love.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2012
    Here's a link detailing gas/diesel sales in 2011 in Germany.

    http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2012/01/2011-diesel-sales-repor-market-share-in-g- - ermany-hit-49/

    I'm not quite sure what to make of it, other than its practically a 50-50 mix in 2011.

    My German friends tell me there is a sizeable additional diesel tax on cars sold there.

    Of the larger cars owned by the folks I know there, all are MBs, BMWs and larger VWs, like Passats, and they all are powered by diesel. The small cars they own, like the small Fords, VW Golf, Fiat and Peugeots are all gas burners.

    Maybe that's part of the explanation...I honestly don't know.

    Additionally, here's a link about diesel sales in England for 2010...

    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/09/sales-of-diesel-powered-vehicles-overtake-g- - - as-models-for-first-t/

    And one more link...

    http://www.eagleaid.com/dieselcarprospectsstudy.htm
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    On the diesels the interval CAN BE ( by specifications VW 507.00) up to 50,000 kms or 30,000 miles. Indeed if it does not meet that specification, it can NOT be VW 507.00 specification oil. Total Quartz INEO 5w30 504/507 oil

    Probably more recognizable in US markets are Mobil One 's products ESP 5w30 VW 504/507 and ESP 5w40 MB 229.51 specifications.

    It really has not much to do with luck.

    I also do my own oil changes and in many ways it is not the few quarts of oil and filter. Indeed the procedures to R/R takes all of 5 mins using the oem specified top side evacuation method. The rest of the time is making the stuff ready and recycling the containers and clean up.

    So yes I fully understand the 3,000 miles OCI time lock and warp we have been in for easily 55 years.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think that's simply a reflection of economics. Once the gas engines come closer and closer to diesels in terms of cost per mile, this will change (probably has already).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    I think you have to remember/mention that gassers have been dominate in the US markets for a very long time and percentage (95% and OVER) So in that sense to plug into your post, it has really rested on its laurels and for a long time. You might also use squandered and shameful if you would like. ;) Plenty of years to get the gasser efficiency up.

    UPSHOT all this "religious conversion" or finding godot should have been done many many years ago. In some ways it is a red herring issue.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2012
    I think gas pumps still dominate, gas mechanics outnumber diesel mechanics, and gas cars way outnumber diesel options. Lots of inertia there to try to budge.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    Indeed you acknowledge the 95% and (in the past )+ over percentage of gassers in the passenger vehicle fleet.

    I probably should not say this but never having to wait in line for a diesel pump is PURE gravy.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gas engines have been dominant for good reasons however. They have thus far defeated all comers. If you're saying "it's not a fair fight", I really don't agree with that.

    May the best engine win and all that. So far the conventional gas engine as used in the passenger car has already beaten, or beaten back, ---steam, (early 1900s) diesel, (beaten in 1930s, 1960s-80s, and again now) turbine (1960s), rotary (1970s/80s)...and there are no indications that future interesting tech like hydrogen, solar, compressed air, flywheel, are anywhere near reality.

    In the same way, diesels did very well in Europe because gasoline used to be way more expensive than diesel fuel there. You might say that cheap diesel fuel was the garden bed that diesels grew up in .

    This doesn't include coal cars and cars on eBay that run on water. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    I do have to say I like the LS V-8 engine. with tremec 6 speed manual transmission. I actually would like a turbo diesel V8 small block 350 cu in, Cummins comes to mind. If the same size diesel can be 30%+ more efficient with fuel, I am ok with 33-36 mpg over the 25 to 28 I am able to post with the V8 gasser. If I had got the 10% higher gearing, a lot of guys say 30-32 is can do easy. Just not the ones designed to pull stumps out of the ground with the gearing to go alone with it and pull 3 horses and a load of hay.

    It still amazes that a 2.0 L 4 banger can shoot you along all day (6.25 hours before I look for fuel @ app 584 miles) and still post 48+ mpg.

    I say just let in a fuller diesel product line from Europe, if the US oems do not want to build em or let em in here. This here is really the issue.

    The spin off is the cost to operate diesel here is way cheaper than operating it in Europe. It is still cheaper here to operate despite higher taxation and diesel fuel prices. (like for like models of course)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "I have never gotten a straight answer about the KWH to mpg conversion. They could even post an on line app and all you would have to do is plug in the figures cents per kWh, mpg, cost of fuels, etc. to get equivalent mpg."

    Ask, and ye shall receive.

    Try this calculator:

    http://www.befrugal.com/tools/electric-car-calculator/

    It even lets you compare diesels to gas/hybrid/EVs.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    Thank you.

    There are huge and many unknowns in the electrical logistics of the trips I would take as I take with the diesels (gassers for that matter). As you can imagine cost per KWH on the road, time to charge, etc. I can easily go 600 miles with no fuel.

    I plugged in the numbers and as I had rough calculated by what I had gleaned before, EV (Volt) is still more costly to run. The application stopped calculating the BE point, other than to say OVER 15 years. Are they built even to last over 15 years?

    So for example a neat solution would be 250 miles to 500 miles per charge with the 2.0 L turbo diesel engine as back up. That would trump the diesel only for range.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I compared a Volt to a SportWagen TDI and got this, using $3.52 for RUG and $3.94 for Diesel fuel, which is what the Guvmint published as the USA average prices as of Wednesday afternoon:

    Break-even time is 8 yrs 8 months.

    Annual fuel cost for:
    Volt = $667.38
    TDI = $1,663.71

    That includes my cost of electricity (cheaper than most at 8c per kwh) and the fact I only commute about 23 miles daily and have 2 annual trips of 2,500 miles. So my BE point is quicker than most.

    I compared it to the car I drive now (2007 TCH) and got a BE of 6 yrs 11 months.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2012
    As you can see there is a considerable difference between.295 cents per KWH and 8 cents per KWH, order of magnitude of 3.69 times .(369% more) To say the area where you are at is cheaper than most would be a severe understatement. Too bad we could not internet shop for fuel ;)

    In some ways that is like saying diesel is slightly cheaper than RUG

    @4.09 (my current price) and RUG is (current price of 3.79) @ 13.98 per gal. I guess that depends on what one considers SLIGHT.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Don't use the lowest Kw rate on your bill as your actual cost. All electricity is "tiered" in many ways, by time of day and also overages after the base rate. You'd have to add up all the different charges on your bill and average them out.

    I would use the average rate specified on the chart of .15 cents, or at least .12 cents. I don't think anyone actually pays less than that once you calculate all the tiers.

    And of course, if you live in Hawaii, your Kw cost is sky high at the base rate, and I'd imagine the worst case scenario in Hawaii could go as high as .50 cents a Kw.

    So results in "real life" vs. this chart could be enormous.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited February 2012
    That is the average rate I pay....I'm on a "time-based" system and I also have solar panels. The 8c is what my average rate is, with all else considered.

    Don't hate me because my rates are beautiful.... :blush:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh well, you have another system in place to lower the rate then, in effect. Your rate seems to be a very unusual outlier rate compared to the national average. You must never exceed your baseline in other words and never break the "tier".

    But with an EV fast charge system, I'm sure you would exceed baseline.

    Here's roughly how my rates are calculated:

    12¢ / kWh - up to the baseline
    14¢ / kWh - 101 to 130% of baseline
    29¢ / kWh - 131 to 200% of baseline
    40¢ / kWh - >200% of baseline

    I bet with an EV charging station you wouldn't be paying anything close to .8 cents.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, your assumptions are correct in MANY cases, but not mine.

    Here is my price plan, from my utility company's website:

    http://www.srpnet.com/prices/home/ez3faq.aspx#1

    Since my "Peak Time" is from 3PM to 6PM M-F, I never pay the top rate. Because of my solar panels, my usage in the last 12 months for that time of day is (MINUS) 97 kwh. Meaning I generated 97 more kwh than I used in that time period.

    My "Off Peak" rates vary from 7.29c to 7.88c year round. So when I figure in my "monthly fees and taxes UNRELATED to the kwh hours I pay for" I get about 8c per kwh all year round.

    And since I would only charge my EV/Volt after 6 PM daily, I would *ALWAYS* be paying less than 8c per kwh for that charging.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well what I meant was you are an outlier because you would strictly adhere to the time of day you would charge and you also have solar input. You are to be commended, not criticized.

    But---what you are doing would alone would eliminate most of the US population from duplicating your results.

    That's all I meant. You are, in a non-perjorative way, gaming the system so to speak.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Agreed, for now. But hopefully, solar panel installations will increase as EVs gain popularity also.

    Most people who own a home, live in a sunny climate, and have a 700+ credit score can get a SolarCity solar panel system for $0 down like I did....
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    When determining your effective KwH rate, do you factor in the costs of the solar panels, both installation costs and ongoing maintenance and insurance, reserve for replacement, etc?

    The question isn't an argument... I'm just curious...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not much of that applies in my case:

    1. It's a lease for which I pay Solar City $41 per month.
    2. They maintain it and guarantee the output.
    3. The insurance did not go up when I added the panels, as the coverage I had already in place covers the replacement cost of the system.
    4. Installation was free.

    If I add the $41 per month lease cost to my "electricity usage" total, that adds about 5c to the total, putting my effective rate at 13c.

    So either way, I'm below the national average probably....
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    No doubt about it, that's a pretty sweet deal.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,617
    I think diesels thrived in Europe out of necessity, not love.

    Much as electrics are being forced down our throats over here.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,617
    however, areas with time-of-day rates like Phoenix make it possible to charge up the electric vehicle in the middle of the night when demand and costs are lowest.

    Anyone who uses an electric outside of city limits or on a long trip deserves what they get. Here in the desert the A/C probably uses more energy than the wheels, given regenerative braking in town.

    They're upsized golf carts for city use only.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
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