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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    yet I have not heard of a SINGLE PLAN to offer any diesel-powered Nissans here in the future

    Maxima diesel, though there hasn't been much news about it lately.
  • A TDI packaged in an affordable and reliable car. I know the engines are nearly bulletproof, but most TDIs are packaged in German cars that are either expensive (MB) or have reliability issues (VW) :lemon: . Gimme a Accord TDI and make the engine available across the line up, :) not just top of the line and I’ll be able to afford it. :blush:
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    There you have hit the nail on the head. Make one that reflects what people can afford. That is how Honda made its mark in the market as well as Toyota in the beginning. Toyota was even willing to sell the Prius at a loss to gain interest. It isn't like they need the consumer to help pay for R&D. If they don't promote affordable diesels now and Hybrids gain too much of a foothold diesels will fail again in this country. If people can get a Koren car made by Hyundai for 10 - 12 K that gets 30 - 35 MPG and that company has managed to get off of the bottom of the reliability surveys they sure aren't going to flock to a 40 MPG VW that cost 23+K and hasn't been five cars from the bottom of the same lists for 20 years. And if they are going to spend 23+K they will look at Hybrids from Toyota who has been close to the top of the list for as long as we can remember.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    are in freefall, yet diesel in my area is maintaining its price differential: $0.70. Today the cheap gas in my area is at $2.89, the diesel at the same station is at $3.59. It's still close to 25% higher. Betting on diesel fuel prices, which is what you do when you buy a diesel car, is betting on a loser it would seem....

    Of course if gas gets up to $4.50-$5 next summer and diesel is still $0.70 higher, it would only be 15% higher in price.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Gas prices are heading for $2 here. Diesel is way different (just under $3), as the freefall we saw with deisel prices preceding the gas price freefall has slowed. So the percentage difference is growing. However, I have gotten 51 mpg overall for the past four months, so I am not complaining. And $3 is way cheaper than the almost $5 prices earlier this year. We do need to change the taxing structure so that diesel is not penalized in this country. Meanwhile, I'm still sold on my ride.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    yet diesel in my area is maintaining its price differential: $0.70.

    Same thing here in SW PA. I wished it would narrow the spread, to make these things more viable.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    If they would just make an entry level car at about 10k with a small diesel people might give it a try. Maybe the Koreans will give it a shot? All we ever get from Europe is over priced cars of questionable dependability. The Old MB weren't bad but they were way over priced. After all these things are used as Taxi Cabs in Europe.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Posts: 1,060
    Your deisel is still less than down here in fla. There is a 90cent diff. in RUG and diesel. Go figure!!!!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    BP station nearby(Chicago area) a couple of days ago was RUG $2.34, Diesel 3.29.

    1. Diesel is messy to fill up your car with.
    2. Only about 1 out of 4 gas stations carry it.
    3. You might have to wait in line at the only pump at the station.
    4. Diesel engines take a long time to generate heat for the passengers in the winter.
    5. If you live where it gets to below -10 degrees I have read that you need to add additives. How much does that add to the price? Some people recommend additives of some kind at every fill regardless of the weather.
    6. Diesel cars cost more.
    7. I have read that one has to be very careful getting exactly the right service by somebody that really knows what they are doing or the engine can get screwed up. It seems you need to find a "really knowlegeable" mechanic to service diesel engines. How hard is that to do?

    All in all, it just seems like too much hassle at this point for the little bit of money saved. Now if the price per gallon was very close, I would put up with the small inconveniences but not until.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    around to more densely populated parts of the Bay Area this weekend, and discovered that in some places diesel and RUG are almost the same price! In particular one Chevron station had unleaded for $2.83 and diesel for $2.86.

    To me, this is not an argument for diesel pe se, but rather a cautionary tale of just how unpredictable diesel prices can be, and will be if more and more people need to buy it. My first instinct is to stay away from a diesel car, even though in principle I really want to like it because it makes a good fuel economy alternative to the hybrids and can often be had with a manual transmission.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think with proper planning most of the obstacles you mention can be easily avoided or overcome, but you're right, it does take a certain "diesel consciousness" to realize that you have to adapt from your old gasoline engine habits.

    As for additives, anything under about 15+ degrees Farenheit is cause for concern with diesel fuel. The fuel can actually gel up and thicken, so that's a no-start. In severe climates, like Alaska or Russia, they will often let their heavy trucks idle all winter unless they are doing short stops for lunch or fuel, etc.

    As for mechanics, this is true. You don't want a monkey messing with your diesel engine and guessing what to do, especially with the injection system.

    Basically the problem is a marketing one. People were told diesels required "less maintenance" which is a lie--they require DIFFERENT maintenance.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    If that were true nationally, the diesel rollout would be staggering. Anyone have a reasonable explanation why diesel is cheap in CA, and so much higher than RUG seemingly everywhere else?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    It's NOT cheap in CA, only apparently in parts of California. Here in norther CAL (north of Santa Barbara) it's outrageously expensive and has been for years. This is one reason I ditched my diesel Benz. I completely lost the economy advantage of having a large comfortable 26 mpg sedan, and price-adjusted, it became about an 18 mpg sedan. Not BAD but not what I signed up for. So now I have a 26 mpg gas sedan. I drive a LOT--it matters to me.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    1. Diesel is messy to fill up your car with.
    It is not.
    2. Only about 1 out of 4 gas stations carry it.
    I have never had a problem finding it.
    3. You might have to wait in line at the only pump at the station.
    I drive 400 miles a week and do not encounter lines.
    4. Diesel engines take a long time to generate heat for the passengers in the winter.
    I have heated seats.
    5. If you live where it gets to below -10 degrees I have read that you need to add additives. How much does that add to the price? Some people recommend additives of some kind at every fill regardless of the weather.
    I have never used additives, and that includes times when it is 20 below F.
    6. Diesel cars cost more.
    Yes they do, but the premium wouldn't be as much if more people bought them here. The penalizing tax structure must be changed first.
    7. I have read that one has to be very careful getting exactly the right service by somebody that really knows what they are doing or the engine can get screwed up. It seems you need to find a "really knowlegeable" mechanic to service diesel engines. How hard is that to do?
    Not hard at all. Never been a problem. For example, Fred's TDI web page.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    That might change for you, so watch out. Here's an article on how the "new" diesel fuel is less resistant to waxing in cold weather:

    Diesel Fuel in Cold Weather

    I think the "messy" criticism is valid; otherwise, why would stations give you little plastic gloves? :P
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    You can just as easily spill or not spill gas on your hands. That smell isn't easy to removed either. I just don't spill either one...problem solved.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I don't like either one, but gas seems to evaporate faster than "oily" diesel. The diesel seems to wind up spilled around the pump area and gets on your shoes worse than gas too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Yeah but they don't give you little gloves for gas pumps, that's what so interesting. So how did that service get started? Are diesel owners sloppier? Doubt it.

    I suspect that it was due to complaints/requests.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I think part of it is the diesel nozzles are not the air tight type in CA. When they are pumping into big tanks on trucks the shut off allows more slop over. I found most of the ARCO/BP stations in San Diego were more for PU and cars than the truck stops. The handles were not as messy and the ground was not as diesel soaked.

    I would say the oily mess was the biggest turn off for me with diesel. The smell is not nearly as bad as Regular gas. Not as unhealthy either. That is why the expensive nozzles to trap all the carcinogens that the fumes contain. Breathing raw gas fumes is much more dangerous than diesel.

    Still a small price to pay for 600+ mile range and that sweet low RPM torque without the scream of a little wimpy gas engine.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I agree. The pumps have a lot to do with the problem. And getting the stuff on the soles of my feet was really a problem. I used to wipe my shoes off after every fill up. Some people are slobs!!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    1. It is messy. I used to drive a fuel oil delivery truck and deliver to homes and farms. Don't tell me it is not a lot messier than gasoline.
    2. You confirmed my statement by saying you don't have trouble "finding" it. I don't have to "find" gasoline stations that sell RUG....they're everywhere.
    3. I have seen people waiting for the diesel pump at the BP station I go to. Not a lot but appears to be a little inconvenient.
    4. I have heated seats in two of my cars too but they are no substitute for nice hot air blowing from the heater and defroster after about three to four minutes of driving.
    5. I'm glad you don't. I stated that I have read of this on these forums and don't know if it is really necessary or not.
    6. I state again. They simply cost more.....doesn't make them bad just a factor in the equation.
    7. I was referring to what I have read on these forums regarding VW dealership expertise when it comes to servicing the diesels. It seems that very concise specifications on the oils and/or fluids had better be adhered to or there could be trouble.

    I'm not bashing diesels. I'm just commenting on the topic of what it would take for me to buy a diesel. The plus and minuses are not lining up in favor of the diesels for me at this time. Like I said, if the price per gallon was more equitable, I would happiliy buy a diesel.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    To each his or her own. Have had my TDI six years now. The fuel has never made a mess for me...but of course it could. I find gasoline easier to spill, and although it is more volatile (and more dangerous), the gas smell lingers after it has evaporated. Your other concerns seem more valid to me. If everyone drove diesels, people would complain about the smell and mess of those weird gassers.

    I wish diesel fuel wasn't penalized here the way it is. Still, with an overall average of 51 mpg and diesel selling here for $2.93, I don't have much to complain about.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    I'm trying to figure out some kind of rhyme or reason for the large discrepancies in RUG vs diesel prices. Diesel used to be cheaper than gas now it is so much more. Is it taxes? Is it supply/demand? I read about the the economies of China and India sucking up huge amounts of diesel in construction equip etc. You mention that diesel is "penalized". I took a trip to Texas from IL in Sept and saw differences of $1.00 down to less than .10 difference between RUG and diesel. So I don't think it could be federal taxes. Can you explain how that works?

    The Shell station in my small suburb of Chicago yesterday was $1.05 more for diesel than RUG. Thats over 40% higher. BTW, what vehicle do you have that gets overall 51mpg? That would be like at least an average of 60MPG hwy wouldn't it? From what I read on the Jetta TDI forums the new ones are averaging overall around 38-40mpg and around 46-48 on hwy.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Here is a good post of the reasons diesel is higher:

    This will 'splain it
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I have a 2003 Golf TDI. It has consistently gotten better than even the old (higher) EPA estimates. My sister's 2005 TDI gets similar mileage. My friend Sybil's TDI Beetle approaches those numbers as well. My mechanic reports the chipped TDIs also do better than EPA, unless of course you get into the throttle and use the extra hp and torque a lot.

    At least half are highway miles. The newer Jettas don't do as well, but the hp and torque are significantly higher, so it is a good trade-off. Also, I drive 68 mph, not 78 or 88.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    With any small displacement engine, and especially with a diesel, the difference between MPG at 65 mph and 75-80 mph is significant, and at 55 mph it's even more significant.

    I once did a pretty careful test on my 1.5L Scion and got these results

    Driving 55 and under: (75% hwy/25%city) 41 mpg
    Driving 65 and under 34 mpg
    Driving 75 and under 31 mpg
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    "a general slump in passenger car sales in Western Europe is partly to blame for its decision -- diesels account for about 60 percent of new car sales over there.

    But sales of diesel vehicles in Europe also are being hurt as gas prices sink faster than diesel prices, in some cases erasing the price advantage diesel fuel once had."

    Bosch Cuts Diesel Components Production Amid Slowing European Demand (Green Car Advisor)
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    in my area today: $2.19/gallon. Cheapest diesel, $3.15. Boy would I feel silly if I owned a diesel car right now. When I was over in the next county earlier today however, I noticed a station where gas was $2.23 and diesel was $2.79, so that's only $0.56 difference, or about 20%. Diesel prices are so unpredictable!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Yes, now here it is 1.95 v. 2.69. Since I get 50 mpg overall, I am still ahead of the game, but first diesel fell faster than gas...now it is definitely the other way around. Still and all, my diesel price is over $2 lower than it was in July.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Yeah but you're only $20 ahead, per year, against a gas car getting 35 mpg. Next to a Dodge Ram V-10, yeah, you're making out like a bandit.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    However, you are forgetting that fuel prices fluctuate all the time in a year, and I am way ahead at this point--comparing fuel costs for my 30 mpg car v. my 51 mpg car. Also, I have had this little 2003 gem since 2002 and so there have been times a few years ago when diesel cost far less than gas. Buying a new Jetta now is different, I grant you. Average mpg would be more like 41 and diesel prices are likely to stay higher over the life of a 2008 vehicle. Am waiting to see what the 2010 diesel Rabbit will do mileage-wise. If it is 45 or so in the real world, I might do a trade for the increased power, quiet, stability control and so on.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    The price differential this morning here between regular and diesel is 84 to 88 cents a gallon.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I am hoping the difference remains to help my bargaining on an X5 diesel. Though my wife and I are considering a European delivery on an E320 CDi with a month touring the EU and visiting friends in Greece. So many decisions. None of the diesel SUVs are available for EU delivery. I think MB & BMW SUVs are built in the USA.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Too bad, that would be a fun option.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    If you are taking European delivery, isn't there a CDi E-series wagon you could get instead of the sedan? Just a thought - that's a big wagon.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Nothing available for EU delivery that is not sold here. Yes the E wagon CDI would be a great option.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    Drove by a station an hour ago. RUG=$1.89....... Diesel=$3.09. $1.20 higher or 63%! Ridiculous.

    No wonder I'm starting to see new Jetta TDIs going for less than MSRP and closer to invoice on the prices paid forum.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Timing is everything. When I bought my Passat TDI in April 05 diesel was way higher than RUG. When the price of diesel came back to reality a year later I sold the Passat for $3000 more than I paid new and had it to drive for 13 months. We have diesel for $2.45 all over town now. I would say you should get a Jetta TDI close to Invoice.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    "Citing growing uncertainty over market demand for the vehicles, Toyota Motor Corp. has called off an18-month-old joint venture to develop a 1.6-liter diesel engine for passenger cars with diesel specialist Isuzu Motors.

    Honda earlier this year put its U.S. diesel plans on hold because the price gap here between diesel fuel and gasoline has erased the more expensive diesel engine's fuel efficiency cost advantage."

    Toyota, Isuzu Cancel Pact to Build Diesel Engines for Toyota Passenger Cars
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    To me the unsaid or sound of one hand clapping, is that new "higher mpg" standards might be put on hold indefinitely. It makes no financial sense to totally stop manufacturing SUV's: ie., 20-30 year phase out. They are also loathed to approve, invest, make and deploy a series 1,150,1500 V-5- 6-8 turbo diesels !! .

    I think we are in for SOS DD ! Despite the bru ha ha about better mpg standards global warming/ climate change; i.e., winter, spring, summer, fall, as it has always been called) RUG to PUG is THE order of the realm ! Return to single digit year over year growth in consumption world wide is almost a slam dunk.

    So as a result (my .02 cents) two markets segments that might make sense:

    1. American SUV's Trucks with under invoice pricing, .09% financing, tax credits and vouchers. If you do 12-15kmiles per year, essentially you control cost vs use metrics.

    2. Diesel cars that actually will hit the US market. VW Jetta TDI indeed has a modest tax credit, ala hybrid tax credits do.

    So for example like model VW's @ 24/34 mpg @ per mile driven .0704 RUG/.0703 D2 is @ PAR(1.69/RUG/2.39 D2). SO do you think the RUG to PUG to D2 prices will remain low and go lower? :P I will let the doubters do the math at 4 per gal.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Exxon Is Spending $1 Billion to Increase Diesel Pollution.

    Oops, minor typo there. :blush: :shades:

    "Expanding its output of lower-emission fuel, Exxon Mobil Corp. said it would spend more than $1 billion to increase diesel production at two Gulf of Mexico refineries and a third in Belgium."

    Exxon Is Spending $1 Billion to Increase Diesel Production (WSJ)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    It would be hard to make anything about the WSG headline unless it is just an add to see WSJ on line subscriptions.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    This should be the free linky. Until Google gets shut down over it anyway. It's the top story at the moment.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    Thanks for the extra effort, I know you monitor a lot of threads. I am not sure why this is a top story. The greater D2 demand is probably world wide rather than domestic. The domestic market actually gives tax credits and pays more at the pump for RUG to PUG to EXPORT D2 used world wide. (this tidbit is NOT in the WSJ story)
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Oh, I should have said it's top in the search list (because of the time stamp I think). Give it an hour or two, and it'll drop down.

    Three weeks from now someone will complain that they want to read that story and none of my links will work. :P

    And yeah, it won't surprise me if the Gulf refineries send the diesel to the EU or somewhere other than the US.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    Thanks for the clarifications.

    .."And yeah, it won't surprise me if the Gulf refineries send the diesel to the EU or somewhere other than the US."...

    Yes, actually I didn't save the reference, as I read an article in passing. It was along the lines of feeling disgusted, as they mentioned WE in effect pay easily .50 cents MORE per gal min for RUG to PUG to export D2 overseas. In the same misguided vane, they charge more for diesel as one more tool in the quiver to discourage its use.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Hopefully it does not affect the price of diesel until I get my new diesel SUV. Then they can sell diesel for half the price of gas and I will be smilin' :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I remember the days when I drove my diesel car and the price of diesel was below that of gasoline. I was easily pushing 26 mpg at that time, while other cars "my size" were getting half that. Life was sweet back then.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,751
    I have always liked diesel trucks but the only car to date I ever wanted was an old 300D. It was a great road car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I had two of those. As legendary as they were, they had their shortcomings.

    Modern diesel cars that I've driven are light years ahead of an old 300D or SD in performance, noise level, comfort and economy----but I'm not so sure they are ahead of the old tanks in build quality and reliability.

    There is a certain allure to rugged simplicity.
This discussion has been closed.