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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
Maxima diesel, though there hasn't been much news about it lately.
Of course if gas gets up to $4.50-$5 next summer and diesel is still $0.70 higher, it would only be 15% higher in price.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Same thing here in SW PA. I wished it would narrow the spread, to make these things more viable.
1. Diesel is messy to fill up your car with.
2. Only about 1 out of 4 gas stations carry it.
3. You might have to wait in line at the only pump at the station.
4. Diesel engines take a long time to generate heat for the passengers in the winter.
5. If you live where it gets to below -10 degrees I have read that you need to add additives. How much does that add to the price? Some people recommend additives of some kind at every fill regardless of the weather.
6. Diesel cars cost more.
7. I have read that one has to be very careful getting exactly the right service by somebody that really knows what they are doing or the engine can get screwed up. It seems you need to find a "really knowlegeable" mechanic to service diesel engines. How hard is that to do?
All in all, it just seems like too much hassle at this point for the little bit of money saved. Now if the price per gallon was very close, I would put up with the small inconveniences but not until.
To me, this is not an argument for diesel pe se, but rather a cautionary tale of just how unpredictable diesel prices can be, and will be if more and more people need to buy it. My first instinct is to stay away from a diesel car, even though in principle I really want to like it because it makes a good fuel economy alternative to the hybrids and can often be had with a manual transmission.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As for additives, anything under about 15+ degrees Farenheit is cause for concern with diesel fuel. The fuel can actually gel up and thicken, so that's a no-start. In severe climates, like Alaska or Russia, they will often let their heavy trucks idle all winter unless they are doing short stops for lunch or fuel, etc.
As for mechanics, this is true. You don't want a monkey messing with your diesel engine and guessing what to do, especially with the injection system.
Basically the problem is a marketing one. People were told diesels required "less maintenance" which is a lie--they require DIFFERENT maintenance.
It is not.
2. Only about 1 out of 4 gas stations carry it.
I have never had a problem finding it.
3. You might have to wait in line at the only pump at the station.
I drive 400 miles a week and do not encounter lines.
4. Diesel engines take a long time to generate heat for the passengers in the winter.
I have heated seats.
5. If you live where it gets to below -10 degrees I have read that you need to add additives. How much does that add to the price? Some people recommend additives of some kind at every fill regardless of the weather.
I have never used additives, and that includes times when it is 20 below F.
6. Diesel cars cost more.
Yes they do, but the premium wouldn't be as much if more people bought them here. The penalizing tax structure must be changed first.
7. I have read that one has to be very careful getting exactly the right service by somebody that really knows what they are doing or the engine can get screwed up. It seems you need to find a "really knowlegeable" mechanic to service diesel engines. How hard is that to do?
Not hard at all. Never been a problem. For example, Fred's TDI web page.
Diesel Fuel in Cold Weather
I think the "messy" criticism is valid; otherwise, why would stations give you little plastic gloves? :P
I suspect that it was due to complaints/requests.
I would say the oily mess was the biggest turn off for me with diesel. The smell is not nearly as bad as Regular gas. Not as unhealthy either. That is why the expensive nozzles to trap all the carcinogens that the fumes contain. Breathing raw gas fumes is much more dangerous than diesel.
Still a small price to pay for 600+ mile range and that sweet low RPM torque without the scream of a little wimpy gas engine.
2. You confirmed my statement by saying you don't have trouble "finding" it. I don't have to "find" gasoline stations that sell RUG....they're everywhere.
3. I have seen people waiting for the diesel pump at the BP station I go to. Not a lot but appears to be a little inconvenient.
4. I have heated seats in two of my cars too but they are no substitute for nice hot air blowing from the heater and defroster after about three to four minutes of driving.
5. I'm glad you don't. I stated that I have read of this on these forums and don't know if it is really necessary or not.
6. I state again. They simply cost more.....doesn't make them bad just a factor in the equation.
7. I was referring to what I have read on these forums regarding VW dealership expertise when it comes to servicing the diesels. It seems that very concise specifications on the oils and/or fluids had better be adhered to or there could be trouble.
I'm not bashing diesels. I'm just commenting on the topic of what it would take for me to buy a diesel. The plus and minuses are not lining up in favor of the diesels for me at this time. Like I said, if the price per gallon was more equitable, I would happiliy buy a diesel.
I wish diesel fuel wasn't penalized here the way it is. Still, with an overall average of 51 mpg and diesel selling here for $2.93, I don't have much to complain about.
The Shell station in my small suburb of Chicago yesterday was $1.05 more for diesel than RUG. Thats over 40% higher. BTW, what vehicle do you have that gets overall 51mpg? That would be like at least an average of 60MPG hwy wouldn't it? From what I read on the Jetta TDI forums the new ones are averaging overall around 38-40mpg and around 46-48 on hwy.
This will 'splain it
At least half are highway miles. The newer Jettas don't do as well, but the hp and torque are significantly higher, so it is a good trade-off. Also, I drive 68 mph, not 78 or 88.
I once did a pretty careful test on my 1.5L Scion and got these results
Driving 55 and under: (75% hwy/25%city) 41 mpg
Driving 65 and under 34 mpg
Driving 75 and under 31 mpg
But sales of diesel vehicles in Europe also are being hurt as gas prices sink faster than diesel prices, in some cases erasing the price advantage diesel fuel once had."
Bosch Cuts Diesel Components Production Amid Slowing European Demand (Green Car Advisor)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No wonder I'm starting to see new Jetta TDIs going for less than MSRP and closer to invoice on the prices paid forum.
Honda earlier this year put its U.S. diesel plans on hold because the price gap here between diesel fuel and gasoline has erased the more expensive diesel engine's fuel efficiency cost advantage."
Toyota, Isuzu Cancel Pact to Build Diesel Engines for Toyota Passenger Cars
I think we are in for SOS DD ! Despite the bru ha ha about better mpg standards global warming/ climate change; i.e., winter, spring, summer, fall, as it has always been called) RUG to PUG is THE order of the realm ! Return to single digit year over year growth in consumption world wide is almost a slam dunk.
So as a result (my .02 cents) two markets segments that might make sense:
1. American SUV's Trucks with under invoice pricing, .09% financing, tax credits and vouchers. If you do 12-15kmiles per year, essentially you control cost vs use metrics.
2. Diesel cars that actually will hit the US market. VW Jetta TDI indeed has a modest tax credit, ala hybrid tax credits do.
So for example like model VW's @ 24/34 mpg @ per mile driven .0704 RUG/.0703 D2 is @ PAR(1.69/RUG/2.39 D2). SO do you think the RUG to PUG to D2 prices will remain low and go lower? :P I will let the doubters do the math at 4 per gal.
Oops, minor typo there. :shades:
"Expanding its output of lower-emission fuel, Exxon Mobil Corp. said it would spend more than $1 billion to increase diesel production at two Gulf of Mexico refineries and a third in Belgium."
Exxon Is Spending $1 Billion to Increase Diesel Production (WSJ)
Three weeks from now someone will complain that they want to read that story and none of my links will work. :P
And yeah, it won't surprise me if the Gulf refineries send the diesel to the EU or somewhere other than the US.
.."And yeah, it won't surprise me if the Gulf refineries send the diesel to the EU or somewhere other than the US."...
Yes, actually I didn't save the reference, as I read an article in passing. It was along the lines of feeling disgusted, as they mentioned WE in effect pay easily .50 cents MORE per gal min for RUG to PUG to export D2 overseas. In the same misguided vane, they charge more for diesel as one more tool in the quiver to discourage its use.
Modern diesel cars that I've driven are light years ahead of an old 300D or SD in performance, noise level, comfort and economy----but I'm not so sure they are ahead of the old tanks in build quality and reliability.
There is a certain allure to rugged simplicity.