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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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My only close to similar experience was when I bought a 2002 Honda S2000 in November 2001. MSRP was $33,300 with freight; I paid $32,000. Three months earlier, before 9-11, dealers were marking the car up to $38-$40k+ But this was as the first snowflakes were flying, and only 2 months after 9-11. When I checked six months later in April, the Edmunds "True Market Value" for a new car was $37,000 here in the DC area, and if you plugged in a California zip code, it was $40,000. Purely a supply/demand issue, because of Honda's limited production.
Diesel mileage is much improved as well. I loved driving the Passat. It was just too close to the ground for my tastes. I doubt I will ever make money buying and selling a new car again. That was a lucky deal for me.
I literally stumbled onto the 2003 Jetta TDI. (invoice+ broker fee) I had wanted and thought I had ordered a NB. Got it from a GM dealer in wine country (Napa, CA area) So I did not have to come back up, they offered to flat bed it to my garage, sans fees. It was hard to pass up doing an iconic wine country tour so I made a Sunday pick up date. My sales guy explained the dealership was not open on Sundays, but he was happy to open the dealership to pick up the vehicle. !??? I had brought a personal check, but VW was offering an almost no interest loan. I literally drove away on a signature. Longer story short, after adjusting to the fact there was a Jetta in front of me instead of a NB and a few phone calls to the wife, he took me on a three hour guided tour of the wine country. I think we wound up glad that the car even though it was not from around there, knew the way.
BMW X5 35 D =671 units
VW Touareg TDI =407 units
MB ML 350 CDI= 45 units
There are of course a much higher ratio of gassers left.
Where are you getting BMW inventory data?
It's not on the BMW USA website that I can find, and I'm pretty sure you aren't calling every dealer in the US to add them up. I've asked this question at least twice before and you seem to promptly respond to every other post, except that particular question. So maybe it's something that you would have to shoot me for if I knew??
per mile .0018653
@ 30 mpg .055959 cents per gal
per 1000 miles - $1.86
P.S. Thanks for the previous post on your inventory data source.
I do understand that the plastic dispensing product is standard in the BLUE DEF product space.
Before and after watching the techs doing the job, I already knew how and was bound and determined to be ABLE to do it myself. One caution I did pick up was that if you reused the smaller sized dispensing (1/2 gal) bottle with the bottoms cut out to was to use a rag over the cut off end to avoid air burping causing product backsplash.
Really the hardest thing about the procedure once you have the proper equipment is to pull the stuff out of your trunk, i.e., unbolt your spare tire and pull out. You can even use a long neck funnel, but the reused bottle dispensing system is GREAT if you are getting near filled as it stops the excess from splashing as a funnel will NOT, all over the floor of your trunk.
Peak 2.5 gal Blue DEF and hose adapter
Here is a sample of what the dispenser looks like:
AdBlue DEF Diesel Exhaust Fluid 1.89 liter 4 - 1/2 Gallon bottles 4 Bottles
Dispenser bottle AdBlue/DEF diesel exhaust fluid
Which is about 4%.
Do you know how many Passat TDI's were sold in MY 2012, versus the total number of Passats?
Last year (2011) between 22-23% of the VW fleet (app 324,500 units) were diesels. So that is app 74.6 k diesel units.
link title
On the 2012 VW Touareg, the best swag I have are 7,773 total units (7112 sold/661 unsold) manufactured. 2011 Touareg sales were 7535 units. (for app 3.2% more)
Today I got RUG for $3.52. Same station was selling diesel for $4.09 and I saw other stations selling it for $4.29 and $4.39.
Paying 57 cents a gallon more sounds a lot worse than the 16% percentage differential.
ULSD $4.35
RUG $4.33
PUG $4.53
We need CA state and Fed tax credits for having to put up with these inequalities. :P :lemon:
CA state of course blames the Fed. The Fed of course blames CA state. The refineries blame the CA state and FED and court systems and world wide taxation. I have even noticed that counties blame counties. They should work in county tax credits we can take on state and fed taxes !!
More demand could tighten supply and drive prices up for the truckers, in which case they'd start running over TDIs.
I suspect the supply would simply increase though. Toss in some tax relief and you could increase the number of diesel cars on the road.
We hav only filled up 3 times, but in all cases in the DC area, diesel is less than premium and usually about the same as mid grade. All of the other vehicles we were considering (BMW, Acura, Audi, Mercedes) and currently own require premium, so that is our relevant comparison and we are usually saving 10-20 cents per gallon with diesel.
I can't quite figure out what's up with the Shell station in DC:
RUG: 4.09
MUG: 4.35
PUG: 4.45
Diesel: 4.15
The are much higher than suburban stations for gas and we would never go there, except as a last resort, but they are actually relatively competitive with suburban stations relative to diesel.
Diesels (passenger vehicle fleet) have LONG been SEVERELY disincentivised. CA state levies a The 5% diesel passenger vehicle population with 95% being gasser after 30+ years is proof positive. Indeed a greater passenger diesel population (23%) would cut back the barrels of oil, for the same number of vehicles. Now how that would "start running over TDI's" would be something you might need to explain in greater detail.
Ruking1, what happens if the powers that be decide to actively encourage diesel car ownership by lowering the fuel cost? Would the semi drivers get upset and protest that policy change, fearing that supply would get crimped and prices would actually go up with demand (I know, it's hard to think it could go much higher).
So for example, since most folks own gassers, (95% passenger vehicle fleet) Obama denied having ANY control over prices. Since it seemed to affect his poll numbers he did actually give the wink and nod and (magically) prices did come down some. Of course it was explained as "normal" adjustments.
Indeed the system has been trying to get rid of independent truckers by making it economically impossible for them to operate. So if truck drivers "protest" they lose monies which makes it ever HARDER to do business as an independent trucker.
Now things are pretty easy to equalize, just give tax credits for any given price, no matter what the pump price. An example would be $4.35 per gal. Just give an independent truck driver a tax credit for 2.50 per gal which would make the effective price per gal @ 1.85 . As you would agree, THAT is NOT going to happen.
I have read an independent has to do something along the order of 100,000 to 120,000 miles per year to make a "decent living" @ 6 mpg that is up to 20,000 gals. So if they got 2.50 per gal that would be tax credits for 50,000 per year.
THERE'S WATER IN THAT HAY
"In 2012, the drought stricken Western United States will ship more than 50 billion gallons of water to China."
Alfalfa is a legume; it takes a lot of water to grow it; and cows love it (or at least farmers like to feed it to them). And China, which has been dramatically building up its stock of dairy cows over the last few years, has been importing lots and lots of American alfalfa. Messrs. Culp and Glennon see more cause for worry than celebration in this U.S. export boom. A list of their concerns can be found in the opinion piece they wrote for The Wall Street Journal, "Parched in the West but Shipping Water to China, Bale by Bale."
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs020/1101547782913/archive/1111216012522.htm- l
It's not just water. US may soon become world's top oil producer. (Anchorage Daily News) The article doesn't say how much of our production is getting exported. Of course, when a bunch of it leaks into what's left of the Ogallala aquifer, the hay exports will stop. :shades:
Back to diesels, there's another new study out this week:
Diesel fumes more polluting than gas, new California study finds (LA Times)
"Researchers concluded that diesel exhaust is responsible for 65% to 90% of a region's vehicle-related SOA emissions, depending on the mix of traffic.
"We can now say that, while both motor vehicle sources are important for these 'secondary' particles, diesel is responsible for a larger proportion, especially in regions such as the San Joaquin Valley with a lot of diesel use"
And who is to say the SOA is not from the ships in the harbors spewing 5000 PPM sulfur from bunker oil.
As far as the sale of Alfalfa to the Chinese, will you be drinking the milk they send back to US, after our dairy farmers are bankrupted? And that is not water from the Ogalala Aquifer. It is from the Colorado river. This is Imperial Valley hay that is going to China.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-09/hay-cheaper-to-ship-to-china-than-calif- ornia-hits-dairies-freight-markets.html
As for the SJV. Agricultural diesel is higher ppm and AGAIN totally no emissions mitigation.
Another which the studies do not DARE go are airports. Again large ppm sulfur AND aviation engines, AGAIN have NO emissions mitigation.
So just for openers what do you think would happen if they shut down LA airports, shipping ports and Oakland shipping and airport and SF airport? Shut down Wash DC area airports? PLEASE !! It is a TOTAL NON ISSUE.
They could shut down all the airports and it would suit me fine. I won't fly until the TSA goons are gone along with their X-ray machines. I would rather spew pollution all across America in a BIG SUV as to let them take my rights away.
There's a reason Valley Girls talk like they do. :shades:
(You're talking to the guy with the electric mower and weed whacker - I'm not overly fond of gassers either, but plug-ins don't have enough range or a cheap enough price tag yet).
So for example if one looks at PM Euro 5 standards they are EXACTLY SAME @ .005 each, gasser/diesel. CO is HALF of the petrol/gassers. Now one question along regulatory lines is CO needs to be the same for gassers (LESS like diesels?) !!! Really come on !! NOT !
Euro ES
US ES
Gasser emissions?
I am just fine with folks getting 28.6 mpg in a gasser, while a TDI gets 45% BETTER fuel mileage 41.5 mpg ( both 2012 VW Passat A/T)
But as said in other posts, everybody knows that (per gal) diesel prices are MUCH higher 4.35 vs 4.27 RUG :P
That's just wrong. We get Brent crude, though, so we're competing with Europe's strong demand for diesel. Sucks.
My brother-in-law told me he buys oil about twice a year. So he'll fill up when prices are low before winter, but he has no choice when he runs out during winter and pays an arm and a leg.
It's hard to even calculate a break-even because around here diesel and gas prices don't move together as we might expect.
..."Bloomberg writes that to offset weak U.S. demand, refiners exported 439,000 barrels a day more than were imported the year before. In 2010, daily imports averaged 269,000 barrels, according to the Petroleum Supply Monthly report."
Pandora's box has long been opened
If you let the crude pile up here though, there's no excess refining capacity to deal with it.
..."When the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) began its program, an estimated two million regulated tanks existed. According to a recent survey sponsored by the Petroleum Equipment Institute, only about 750,000 tanks remain-a 62.5 percent decrease in the number of tank units. These figures suggest that five of every eight tanks in existence in 1988 are no longer in service."....
Less Tanks courtesy of the EPA
Well I did decline to state that period has been app 40 years.
Again another reason for diesel in passenger cars. Why have the capacity to go 581 miles on gas, when on the same tank size you can go 800 miles !? Or 38% longer?
Everyone can run their own numbers.
An example can be: 27 miles/54 R/T commute, app 14,000 miles per year 14,000/30= 467 gals/25 gal fill= 19 fill ups/12 mo or 1.56 fills per month.
So what,... you say?
If I got 20 mpg (same vehicle but gasser)20 mpg/ 700 gals/25 gal= 28 fills/12mo or 233 gals more (50% more fuel use) or 2.33 fills per month. @$ 4.13 RUG that would be $62.29 more/12= $80.19 mo more.
Funny, 24 years have passed since '88 and I have more leaks. :P
At one time in a former work life, I would have been ACUTELY interested in fuel tanks construction and latest technology employed.
On a more current note, well... how about those elections ? The day must be soon upon us, diesel fuel pricing dropped .02 cents to 4.33 !! Woo HOO !! That is only a 134.1%, 33.5% per year rise since 4 years ago (1.85)
Probably too small for our market, at least to the thinking of the marketing departments.