They will base their decision on customer feedback as well as other determining factors. If they believe an IS350 manual will make money, perhaps they'll make one available. However right now it's an unknown whether people will even buy an IS350. Why waste development money on a product that will can't pay for itself?
I wrote a letter to Lexus and let them know. A lady from their Product Development group called me and we chatted for about half an hour regarding the IS350 and manual trannies. When we were done she understood I am a BMW owner who would very much like to switch to Lexus but that will only happen if the car has DSG or a manual.
"Lexus isn't going to base their decision to offer an IS350 with a manual transmission just because sales slow"
It depends on the customer and if IS350 sales are not to expectations because quite a number of people want a car with a manual tranny---you can bet that stupidity would not be the reason for offering a manual tranny.
Makes you wonder what corporate pinhead estimated 5% sales for a manual IS250. In a sport sedan market that estimate is preposterous. Lexus must not confuse a IS with a 4 cyl. Camry.
Right now we have a Lexus TSX, and a Lexus C55 AMG. Greatness lies within that canyon-sized chasm.
This statement is spot on! I think the IS250 is (if priced correctly) perfectly setup to takeout the TSX; and the IS350 sans MT and priced high enough but below the Germans highest-end car in this class.
The middle is definitely where they should have aimed.
I currently spend most of my time in a 6 speed 93 Toyota supra TT with 63k miles and a 2006 Infiniti M 45 sport. The sup is in excellent condition, but I'd trade my supra tomorrow for a 6 speed IS 350 with a hardtop convertible. But that won't happen for awhile. I think Lexus wishes to remain a car company for geezers. I just don't see them making a car for the up and coming wealthy. The current IS is a "safe" car for offspring of wealthy geezers.
I think Lexus wishes to remain a car company for geezers. I just don't see them making a car for the up and coming wealthy. The current IS is a "safe" car for offspring of wealthy geezers.
How did you enjoy your test drive of the new IS350...any more details you could provide?
currently spend most of my time in a 6 speed 93 Toyota supra TT with 63k miles and a 2006 Infiniti M 45 sport.
What do you not like about your M45 compared to your IS350 test drive?
"Bottom Line: It's one of the most capable sport sedans on the market, yet BMW purists will hate it." I had the same feeling. They will and always will!
1. Why would a "BMW purist" be considering/evaluating another brand for purchase? Sounds like blasfamy. And, it would seem, purist would indicate a closed mind about the merits of other cars.
2. Who cares what BMW purists think (about my choice of a car)???
3. Regarding the Edmunds review, the *photo editor* (under "Second Opinions") seemed to be the most clued in...maybe Edmunds should reassess who is driving and who is taking the pictures. But, I will wait for all reviews and *a test drive* before drawing any conclusions.
4. Who cares what BMW purists think (about my choice of a car)???
P.S. I live the the D.C. area and I have recently seen several purists standing by the highway waiting for a tow truck...
In fact, if you were to ask us, "What's the most advanced, refined and confident sport sedan under $40,000 today?" we'd very likely tell you it's the Lexus IS 350. And if you then asked us, "Which modern sport sedan would you most like to own and drive?" we'd tell you "The BMW 3 Series."
Above is based on a test drive by Edmunds posted today!
So Rotoryman now I am beginning to understand why you can be so ambivalently indifferent and obsessed about the car with 3 initials
Is 350 not available yet. But you know that. IS 300 was ok. I almost bought one for my 16 yo daughter but went with celica gts instead. I did not like the snobbery of the Lexus.
I will predict what the M will absolutely smoke the IS 350. Handling with 4 wheel steer. V-8 rumble. Smoother ride. Better stereo. Quicker acceleration. Better interior/leather/seating comfort. Larger back seat/trunk. DVD player. You know, the factors that puts the M in the class of luxury sport. I could not wait to drive an M and the GS 430. And like every mag out there states, it ain't even close. I'll drive the IS 350 when I take my lx 470 in for service some time. And then I'll be disappointed. Just like I was when I drove a G35 coupe. Why can't Toyota just can't even come close to the twin turbo supra is beyond me. But Lexus makes the best geezer car in the world. And they have introduced only one bona fide sports car ever. And I drive it. But I'd consider a geezer is 350 with a hard top convertible and six speed manual. Give up some performance for a few creature comforts.
Wow, that is so true. I totally agree on your stance/basis for purchasing a car. When a "driving enthusiast" is buying a 3-Series, they are making a HUGE compromise on handling. Why not buy a Porsche Boxter S? That is a great handling car. The answer: convenience! (Although, the Boxter now has two trunks) The reason I am very intrigued by the IS 350 is because it looks to have everything that I desire in a sport luxury sedan.
The review for the IS 350 again reinforced my beliefs that this car is not an outright failure. The reviewers had stated that the car has "razor sharp handling". That kind of handling is just fine by my standards, after all, the way characteristics of handling is described is different by everyones standards. Theres always war between all car enthusiasts: Which has better handling, a Carrera GT, Enzo, Murcielago, SLR McLarren, Ford GT,...?
To boot, the IS 350 has the BEST luxury features of ANY of the competition, bar none! Afterall people, this IS a luxury sedan, don't forget the sport, which Lexus didn't.
What I want (Why I will buy an IS 350): SPORT/SPEED! ("The 2006 version has everything I liked about the last car, just more of it. More power, more comfort, better handling and sexy lines.", Road Test Editor, Dan Kan), amazing audio system (ML System... I'm a big Harman Itn'l fan and they have the best engineers), sexy sexy exterior (no explanation necessary!), sexy sexy sexy luxuriously supple interior, safety, and also reliability.
Why I will NOT buy a BMW: Reliability, I am not that obsessive over handling when for the majority of the time, I am not going to be driving the twisties on a daily basis, and if i WAS then a Boxter S, not a sedan, would do just fine. Therefore, I will not sacrifice that which is higher up in the priorities of wants in a luxury sport sedan.
So, all in all, the basis of purchasing a sport sedan should be weighed on your priorities. If the fact that the BMW 3 edges out the IS 350 in handling is the deal breaker for you, then faaaaaaaaantastic, I guess....uhhhh....there's nothing more to say. :confuse:
In fact, if you were to ask us, "What's the most advanced, refined and confident sport sedan under $40,000 today?" we'd very likely tell you it's the Lexus IS 350. And if you then asked us, "Which modern sport sedan would you most like to own and drive?" we'd tell you "The BMW 3 Series." Above is based on a test drive by Edmunds posted today! So Rotoryman now I am beginning to understand why you can be so ambivalently indifferent and obsessed about the car with 3 initials
dewey -
1. "And if you then asked us" - if you check the caption, the review is the opinion of ONE person (Karl Brauer). (I don't know why he says "us" in the review - maybe he carries a mouse in his pocket).
2. "why you can be so ambivalently indifferent and obsessed about the car with the 3 initials"
-- I don't know what the "ambivalently indifferent" means; as for BMW's - I like BMW's (actually, I have great admiration for german engineering, if not for the sterotypical American drivers of BMWs) but I look for the most *complete* (and reliable) package in my choice of car and maybe they are "over-engineered"?
-- "obsessed about..." - actually, I had hoped this forum would be about the new IS - it seems even the Edmund writer repeatedly ref'ed BMW and could only compliment the IS with oblique remarks - between BMW praise - wonder what is in his garage?
rotor...go ask him. he's got a forum here. he does have a ford GT on the way. AFAIK, Karl does not own a BMW. Could be wrong. I know he has a bike and the GT coming.
Better Stereo in an Infiniti... since when did BOSE make anything that sounded half decent?... You should really second guess that statement! And since when did the IS 350 not get a DVD player... And since when did an Infiniti get better leather appointments than the IS 350 (Did your test drive prove this as well? Please tell me about the quality of leather in detail on the IS 350. We all want to know.) Plus, since when were the Infiniti M and IS 350 competitors! For humour's sake, I would LOVE to see a comparo of the M35 and IS 350.
I could go on and on...
PS japcardriver: Let me know how the Mark Levinson system sounded in the IS 350, I would like to know your critique on it, furthermore, you should foreward your findings to the engineers at ML.
Does anyone ever test the lower configurations of these cars? Edmunds tests the 330i but not the 325i and looks like now that they've tested the IS350, they won't bother with the IS250.
Not just Edmunds but the car mags and other sites seem to go for the higher SKU, even though it's the lower-priced configurations which must have the much greater sales volumes.
Also, what's with putting in comments from posts in the forum from people who haven't seen the car, much less driven it?
Its not like Edmunds went to the Lexus dealer, looked over the 250 and 350, and said We need the finest IS350 you have. Toyota appears to have provided pre-production 350s, and only 350s to the press. They know its their strong suite and their going with their strength. You can't blame them. Thats just business. The 250 reviews will come down the road.....
I trust they also studied the demographics and preferences of their potential clientele I just wish they had drawn different conclusions and made available a IS350 manual. That is my only gripe. And it may affect my next car purchase. In any case, the new IS sounds like a breakthrough car for Lexus, and will be interesting to test drive it irregardless.
Also, what's with putting in comments from posts in the forum from people who haven't seen the car, much less driven it?
I agree with you, it is amazing some of the smug set-in-stone comments from people who have never seen this car in person, no less driven it. They appear to be defending BMW, Nissan, and others from charges that I haven't heard made. Clearly there are many here whose interests end with BMWs. For those of us who like cars, this should be fun.
There is nothing wrong with defending the IS when what the "defence" is saying is, "but why are you being critical of its handling abilities when you haven't driven the car yet".
I get the jist of what you are saying and agree, however, there's nothing wrong with liking how the car looks and the features it has. There is however something wrong with bashing the car saying it is a geezer mobile and that every single car on the road will drive circles around it especially when only a select few have driven it and things like "razor sharp handling" has been said about its character.
All FINAL opinions should be left for the test drive
I guess I am in the demographic target age for the new Lexus IS (mid 30's). I have owned a Lexus in the past, currently, I own an Infiniti, and have test driven a 330xi. Before shelling out 40K+ for another new car, I want to make sure that I can actually drive it and keep it running. I am very disappointed in Infiniti. After paying over 50K for a brand-new vehicle, I am seriously entertaining the thought of speaking to my attorney to lemon-law the car after 5000 miles. I have had a G35x loaned to me and it seems like an enjoyable car, but I am seriously concerned that the quality issues with my current Infiniti will also trickle down to the G35.
That said, that leaves the BMW 3 and the IS 350. I know with my old Lexus, all I had to do was to take it to the scheduled maintenance appointments, put gas in it, and it just drove beautifully without a single hiccup.
Maybe you guys make more money than I do and can afford tinkering with your vehicles all the time. Maybe you don't mind paying for expensive repairs. Or maybe I am just getting a little older and have better things to do than to go the the service department. But I am willing to sacrifice a small amount of performance for the assurance of a car I won't be taking to the shop all the time.
Maybe the IS 350 isn't much of a sacrifice in terms of performance at all. No one except for a few car reviewers has test-driven it. But I'll bet on its combination of performance, luxuriousness, and reliablity to be a great car. Now to just scrape up another 40K+.....
Isn't that the norm when there's no real info to talk about?
Lexus is not perfect - I'm sure you'll find someone who'll want to Lemon law their IS in the near future - the only diff is that they will do it easier than others.
>>nothing wrong with liking how the car looks and the features it has.<<
Is there anything wrong with with not liking an automatic tranny in the bigger six?
That is all I have ever said. But I don't think Lexus is gonna make a car like that. Because they make geezer mobiles. Name one car that hasn't fit that label yet? I've driven almost all of them.
And I agree with the poster that said Lexus makes the best cars in the world. They are. I question the reliability of my Infiniti. I traded in a 1990 Lexus 400LS for the M. The car had 200k miles on it and looked great.I had bought it new. It was just boring to drive. A new LS or GS did not do it for me either. BMW, Jag, Mercedes were maintenance nightmares. I reasoned Infiniti will come close to Toyota in reliability, but was much, much more fun. I'll probably drive the M for 5 or 6 years and give it to own of my children. I hope Lexus is building fun cars by then. The GS had some promise and actually is a pretty good car. LS is too vague on handling. No doubt Toyota can build a very fun car. The Supra is an example. They just have decided to build geezer mobiles. But don't worry, every male in a minivan will pretend to be talking on the phone when you pull up to the light.
The IS has promise. But the confiurations this year, just point to more of the same. Maybe a handicap license plate can add to the look.
FT -- 18" Alloy Wheels with Summer Tires (Not available for AWD) HW -- Headlamp Washers with Cleaner ML -- Mark Levinson Premium Audio Package with CD Changer with 14 Speakers NV -- Nav System PA -- Park Assist PM -- Leather Power Seats (a.k.a. Premium Package) PS -- PreCollision System (PCS) with Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (Not available for manual tranny) SR -- Moonroof
Packages:
LD -- Premium Luxury Plus 17" AWD (moonroof, HID/AFS, heated seats, wood, illuminated scuff pads, leather) LL -- Same as above, but for 17" RWD LT -- Same as above, but for 18" RWD
PT -- Premium Plus (moonroof, heated seats, wood, leather) SM -- Performance Luxury (18" allows with summer tires, HID/AFS, Sports Suspension, leather) ST -- Performance Luxury Plus (All of the above with heated seats)
VN -- Nav System with Mark Levinson Audio Package
-----------------------
Pretty much the same as the GS, except that you have a choice of 2 packages for the "base" Level 1 package:
Level 1: Premium Luxury Plus or Performance Luxury Plus Level 2: Navi/Levinson Level 3: PCS/DCC
What's with all the Geeze this and geeze that?? I'm sure you can find a more intelligent route than just saying that. You don't seem to understand that Lexus builds cars for the majority, that's were its gets its money and sales from. Obviously, according to sales, Manuals don't really sell that much. Lexus knows this. Most people that buy a lexus aren't buying it to race people at every light and skid around corners, if you want to do that, lexus isn't the company for you. People that buy lexus aren't geezers or anything like that, they are simply people that prefer excuisite luxury more than pure preformance.
Over the years, lexus has tried to change that, but they are still going to luxury first and performance second because that's what their customer base expects. That being said, wait around a few years and you'll see some high performance cars from lexus since they have said they will go that route in order to take on the BWM Ms and the Benz AMGs, as well as audi Ss.
I just think if you all you want to say is that I'm not getting the car becuase it doesn't have a manual, just say it and move on, don't start bashing the companies for making geezer mobiles and stuff like that. I think Toyota and lexus know what they are doing and they are going for profit, just like any other company out there and they seem to be damn good at it too. They make cars for the Average joe and the Average Joe isn't a racer.
For the Record, I'm one of those racer people and I own a car with a manual and I'd like to see one in the IS350 as well, but if I car get performance and luxury without a manual in the mix, then that's fine with me because I really like everything else about the car and it not having a manual wont stop me from getting, what I think is the most sexy looking car in the class as well as the one with finest interior.
Now lets all just wait for the testing of actual Production cars and not PREproduction cars.
The bimmer crowd are here simply to bash this car. Pure and simple. Or why are they here ? Except for BGDC who is at least willing to test drive the car, none of the other BMW apologists want one, just to find the weak links from test drives and say: "There, I told you so... it ain't gonna come close to our all-encompassing, omnipotent e90"
The IS350 review is a PREproduction car. That won't be the final car you buy at the dealership in October. Clearly there would be biases from one reviewer to another. Already, it is clear Edmunds' lead reviewer has a VDIM bias stemming from the new GS. If you read through the bias tho' what you find is an excellent car from Lexus in the IS350. It is a luxurious car, with class-leading safety features. The styling is a breath of fresh air from the stale e90 look, the interior is gorgeous unlike the spartan e90, and the handling and drive of the car is wonderful as well. Maybe the exhaust note could be louder and richer, maybe the car could use a 6MT, maybe the car could .... But, guess what, no car has it all, otherwise we'd all be driving the same vehicle.
Personally for me, about the single decision factor is PRICING. If Lexus gets that right, all these bashing will be for nothing cos demand will greatly outpace supply, if the price is right !
So Lexus, if you are listening, get the pricing right...and they shall come...
The bimmer crowd are here simply to bash this car. Pure and simple. Or why are they here ? Except for BGDC who is at least willing to test drive the car, none of the other BMW apologists want one, just to find the weak links from test drives and say: "There, I told you so... it ain't gonna come close to our all-encompassing, omnipotent e90"
There's the difference. I like my car, but I can be easily swayed to something else - like the IS350. I'm not loyal when it comes to cars and my car has betrayed me too many times to even consider loyalty to the brand.
I see what you are saying and the past Lexus cars are examples of "geezer mobiles", however the cars comming out of Lexus will prove this stereotype wrong. I agree, Toyota knows how to make fast sports cars. My parents owned an 89 Turbo Supra and that thing was fast for a car from the 80s and handled great. As an example of the new direction Lexus is going in: LS 460 (350+ HP), LS 500 (400+ HP), LS 600h ( 500 HP?). Talk about whiplash. Also, Lexus has been seen testing their IS 500 on Nurburgring (the IS had a modified hood, etc) and the LF-A, a true geezer car :P . In the reviews one of the reviewers had said that the IS 350 does everything that the IS 300 can do except better and the IS 300 was no doubt a very sporting car to drive.
I felt forced into driving a BMW back in the late 1990s due to the steady decline of available sporty sedans with a stick shift, and as such, I welcome any and all other alternatives in that market space. A considerable number of other BMW drivers that I've communicated with over the years have also expressed similar sentiments. That having been said, when the brass at Toyota/Lexus stated that they were bringing to market a car targeted directly at the 3-Series, I took note as did many other folks. Unfortunately I don't even need a test drive to know that Lexus missed the mark by a wide enough margin that it won't be my next car. That statement is in no way bashing what is promising to be a fine car, it is a simple statement of fact that it doesn't meet my personal criteria for a new car.
Paranoia? Not from me. Bashing? No. Critical of the folks that made early statements regarding the new IS? Yes, I quite simply feel like I was given a look at a nice juicy lolly-pop, only to have it whisked away from my grasp at the last minute.
Nicely said, except for the Lexus being for the "average joe". I don't think the average joe buys a Lexus being that its least expensive model sells for say a little bit over 30k. Average joes buy the Camry. We here are "above average joes" all into/ looking for that level of vehicle that gives you "wow" factor when you first open the driver side door, that "damn" factor when you start it up and take it out for its inaugural drive but still gives that feeling everytime you get into it(for some its the way it handles for others its the way it feels and looks, or a combo of both). and of course that "reaction you get from the people in the chevy malibu next to you when you creep up beside them in the "BMW,Lexus, or Infiniti. We want that feeling (well I do) with out breaking the bank and all of these vehicles do that(But we all know BMW do get pricey). I believe we are the ones washing our vehicles for 3 hrs every weekend only to go back inside and constantly look at it from your living room window checking it out from different angles on a regular basis as if it's going to change.. Wether or not you prefer the Bimmer, Lexus or Infiniti we are all in the same "gang" (I know that sounded corny)lol This forum is starting to sound like Democrats and Republicans bickering lol. To each his/her own I personally have a 2002 330 CI that I love for its driving performance but it will be traded in this October for an AWD IS250 for the simple fact I prefer the Luxury factor 1st they put in rather than to the driving performance 2nd.Would rather have the 350 but it snows alot where I am so I'll same some money and lose some horspower but lose nothing in style and comfort which is what I prefer anyway.. Quick note ... not to discredit the BMW (cause I love them, as if my words could discredit a bimmer lol) really I do but I just hate their pricing and maybe mine was a lemon but had it at the dealership way to many times while under warranty for a 43k$$ vehicle... So its Lexus for me baby!!! Only reason not wanting the Infiniti is I think the coupe is gorgeous but the 4 door is crummy looking and I need a sedan..
I could not agree with you more. I've own three BMW's (1994 525i, 2000 325Ci, 2000 328Ci), and all three have had poor quality and reliability issues. The BMW dealership experience I've received hasn't been all that good either. I used to take my father's Lexus in for service and always had a pleasant experience with the dealership. Even though I love the way my Bimmers handled, my next car will be a Lexus. I think Lexus makes the best quality, luxury autos. I haven't decided on whether it will be an IS250 AWD, an IS350, a GS300 AWD, or a one-year old LS430 (a new LS430 would be out of my price range). What I really want is an Infiniti G35 coupe, but my wife and I will start a family soon and will need a sedan. Maybe we should wait to see what the IS350 coupe/convertible will look like first.
"I could not agree with you more. I've own three BMW's (1994 525i, 2000 325Ci, 2000 328Ci), and all three have had poor quality and reliability issues."
Well I don't know what country you live in but here in the U.S.A. at least, there was never any such a thing as a 2000 325Ci.
BMW residual values are the highest in the industry!! Depreciation not maintenance is the biggest financial killer of car ownership! If you want to save money buy a BMW and not a Lexus--please refer to the article below:
But your anecdotal evidence is as good as mine( I am a frugal accountant who managed to service a 3 series for 7 years without breaking my piggy bank).
So let us look at the REAL WORLD versus our own small worlds.
The 3 series rated by JD Power, CR and IQS are IMPRESSIVE. Quality/reliabilty in BMW 3 series are a NON-ISSUE for the general population(unless you are a IS apologist)
It appears now reliability is the key reason to buy an IS! That really would be a sad situation especially when a Hyundai Sonata is the most reliable car in USA(CR for 2004 cars)
I just put down a deposit for the IS...dealership said it comes out in OCtober now...I thought it's coming out in August. THen they told me September and now October. It better be one hell of a car!
That compares to a GS430: 6,300,000Yen; (which we know the U.S. Price) Or if you use 1US$=110 Yen, the IS350 starts $43,636, while 2WD IS250 starts $35454? GS430: $57272 (using Japan price)
GS430 MSRP: $51,775 (US)
So looks like Toyota use $1US = 122 Yen or so?
That will make the IS250: $31967. IS350: $39344.
So maybe under $32K for IS250, and under $40K for IS350. In either case, IS250 won't be cheapr than the IS300 it replaces.
One only has to take a look at the 2006 Camry price to figure that out! come 2006 Spring, 2007 Camry will be another 3% - 5% more. The Brand name of Toyota is like Gold! It ranked ahead of Benz and BMW in the Business week world brand name ranking at 2005.
I am sure a lot of people would rather have a fun car that doesn't need to go to the shop frequently than a fun car that does. It is the whole service experience that most are talking about, even if money is not an issue; people just want the best. With Lexus moving its products up in market prestige, the residual values of their cars will go up.
yeah i was shopping for a 3-series. I really need a new car soon since the car im driving now is going to my brother. He's going off to college. But i dont want to buy the BMW without first driving the IS. I know the deposit doesnt really commit you to anything. Just dont wanna buy the bmw and then regret it when the IS come out.
The sad part for me is the Supra Turbo as probably the best sports car EVER to leave Japan, and 5 YEARS ahead of any sports car on the market.
If Toyota puts here head down, and concentrates, they can build a better 3, ust like the LS was the best luxury car you could buy from 1989 on.
Edmunds' report tells menothing that would make me want to buy the car, UNLESS DRIVING ENJOYMENT is an extremely low priority.
Since the ES has boredom perfected, what is the point of the IS?
It has sexy, non-Lexus style, so at least they did something, but why buy it over an ES?
It has a smaller back seat, less power (250), no resale value, smaller trunk, harder ride. And 5 or six babysitters, telling you not to have fun in this car? What's the point of this car?
Now it's over 6 seconds to sixty? Add 2 seconds for the 250, easy.
I like that Japanese currency conversion. $32k for the 250, $39k for the 350 sounds rght to me (as what Lexus will do).
The GS430 I MIGHT understand turning out as a psuedo-sports-sedan. The IS is supposed to have an edge, bring in conquest sales.
Who is their target buyer? TSX-intenders who want .1 liters dispalcement? 64MPH through the cones with 18's? Are you kidding me? What a let down!
" It's one of the most capable sport sedans on the market, yet BMW purists will hate it."
The IS was never designed to be a 3-Series. It's a Lexus, and it would be silly for Lexus to ignore its heritage by making a sport sedan. From what I gather, the IS is still plenty sporty and rather fast, but not BMW nimble. So? It's a lot more luxurious. Poser's car? That's a rather cheap shot. I would personally call any of these cars (3, IS, A4, G35) poser cars because in most cases, they offer the posh nameplate without the luxury.
It's a Lexus, and it would be silly for Lexus to ignore its heritage by making a sport sedan
EXACTLY RIGHT!!
But unfortuantely Lexus and the chief engineer of the IS think of the IS as a sport sedan! Lexus should call a spade a spade and refer to the IS for what it really is:
An entry level luxury car that is below the GS.
But if that is the case, where does the ES fit in? It appears that the future of the Lexus ES may follow the same track to oblivion as the Infiniti I30/35.
Lexus should call a spade a spade and refer to the IS for what it really is:
An entry level luxury car that is below the GS.
Phew ! what a revelation !!!! And all this based on a single drive of a PRE-production car..... Are we making a mountain out of a molehill or what ? Some will simply look at glass is half-empty and proclaim the car is a dud, others see it differently. All signs, so far, points to a very successful car. Whether the Bimmer crowd likes it or not, the new IS will be a HUGE success. In fact, Lexus won't be able to keep up the demand for the IS350, that will be the problem Lexus will have.
I think most people will agree that this new IS will sell a lot of the new IS, but not to the demographic that usually frequents these discussions (ie, enthusiasts). Lacking a manual tranny in the 350 and a kill switch for the electronic aids is a bit of a no-sale for a lot of us.
My hope was for a 3-series caliber car with Lexus reliability (and manual transmission in the 350)... it would be a no-brainer.
But, based on this latest review (and the specs) sounds like we'll still have to choose between driving excitement and reliability.
But if that is the case, where does the ES fit in? It appears that the future of the Lexus ES may follow the same track to oblivion as the Infiniti I30/35. If the IS starts stealing a lot of sales away from the ES then it might happen - otherwise it will be around for a while. Lexus just can't kill it even if it doesn't fit in the lineup - just too much of a cash cow. Considering that the ES will get another model lifeline (ES350 based on the next Camry) -I can't se how Lexus would kill it off in the next 4-5 years at the earliest. Lexus could care less what combination of cars it takes at the entry level as long as they can sell 80-100k of them per year - I'm sure they wouldn't mind if they're all ISes.
Comments
I wrote a letter to Lexus and let them know. A lady from their Product Development group called me and we chatted for about half an hour regarding the IS350 and manual trannies. When we were done she understood I am a BMW owner who would very much like to switch to Lexus but that will only happen if the car has DSG or a manual.
It depends on the customer and if IS350 sales are not to expectations because quite a number of people want a car with a manual tranny---you can bet that stupidity would not be the reason for offering a manual tranny.
Makes you wonder what corporate pinhead estimated 5% sales for a manual IS250. In a sport sedan market that estimate is preposterous. Lexus must not confuse a IS with a 4 cyl. Camry.
Toyota isn't exactly famous for building enthusiast cars... Who knows? They may be right..
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This statement is spot on!
I think the IS250 is (if priced correctly) perfectly setup to takeout the TSX; and the IS350 sans MT and priced high enough but below the Germans highest-end car in this class.
The middle is definitely where they should have aimed.
How did you enjoy your test drive of the new IS350...any more details you could provide?
currently spend most of my time in a 6 speed 93 Toyota supra TT with 63k miles and a 2006 Infiniti M 45 sport.
What do you not like about your M45 compared to your IS350 test drive?
"Bottom Line:
It's one of the most capable sport sedans on the market, yet BMW purists will hate it."
I had the same feeling. They will and always will!
"Bottom Line:
It's one of the most capable sport sedans on the market, yet BMW purists will hate it."
I had the same feeling. They will and always will!
1. Why would a "BMW purist" be considering/evaluating another brand for purchase? Sounds like blasfamy. And, it would seem, purist would indicate a closed mind about the merits of other cars.
2. Who cares what BMW purists think (about my choice of a car)???
3. Regarding the Edmunds review, the *photo editor* (under "Second Opinions") seemed to be the most clued in...maybe Edmunds should reassess who is driving and who is taking the pictures. But, I will wait for all reviews and *a test drive* before drawing any conclusions.
4. Who cares what BMW purists think (about my choice of a car)???
P.S. I live the the D.C. area and I have recently seen several purists standing by the highway waiting for a tow truck...
Above is based on a test drive by Edmunds posted today!
So Rotoryman now I am beginning to understand why you can be so ambivalently indifferent and obsessed about the car with 3 initials
I will predict what the M will absolutely smoke the IS 350. Handling with 4 wheel steer. V-8 rumble. Smoother ride. Better stereo. Quicker acceleration. Better interior/leather/seating comfort. Larger back seat/trunk. DVD player. You know, the factors that puts the M in the class of luxury sport. I could not wait to drive an M and the GS 430. And like every mag out there states, it ain't even close. I'll drive the IS 350 when I take my lx 470 in for service some time. And then I'll be disappointed. Just like I was when I drove a G35 coupe. Why can't Toyota just can't even come close to the twin turbo supra is beyond me. But Lexus makes the best geezer car in the world. And they have introduced only one bona fide sports car ever. And I drive it. But I'd consider a geezer is 350 with a hard top convertible and six speed manual. Give up some performance for a few creature comforts.
The review for the IS 350 again reinforced my beliefs that this car is not an outright failure. The reviewers had stated that the car has "razor sharp handling". That kind of handling is just fine by my standards, after all, the way characteristics of handling is described is different by everyones standards. Theres always war between all car enthusiasts: Which has better handling, a Carrera GT, Enzo, Murcielago, SLR McLarren, Ford GT,...?
To boot, the IS 350 has the BEST luxury features of ANY of the competition, bar none! Afterall people, this IS a luxury sedan, don't forget the sport, which Lexus didn't.
What I want (Why I will buy an IS 350): SPORT/SPEED! ("The 2006 version has everything I liked about the last car, just more of it. More power, more comfort, better handling and sexy lines.", Road Test Editor, Dan Kan), amazing audio system (ML System... I'm a big Harman Itn'l fan and they have the best engineers), sexy sexy exterior (no explanation necessary!), sexy sexy sexy luxuriously supple interior, safety, and also reliability.
Why I will NOT buy a BMW: Reliability, I am not that obsessive over handling when for the majority of the time, I am not going to be driving the twisties on a daily basis, and if i WAS then a Boxter S, not a sedan, would do just fine. Therefore, I will not sacrifice that which is higher up in the priorities of wants in a luxury sport sedan.
So, all in all, the basis of purchasing a sport sedan should be weighed on your priorities. If the fact that the BMW 3 edges out the IS 350 in handling is the deal breaker for you, then faaaaaaaaantastic, I guess....uhhhh....there's nothing more to say. :confuse:
Above is based on a test drive by Edmunds posted today!
So Rotoryman now I am beginning to understand why you can be so ambivalently indifferent and obsessed about the car with 3 initials
dewey -
1. "And if you then asked us" - if you check the caption, the review is the opinion of ONE person (Karl Brauer). (I don't know why he says "us" in the review - maybe he carries a mouse in his pocket).
2. "why you can be so ambivalently indifferent and obsessed about the car with the 3 initials"
-- I don't know what the "ambivalently indifferent" means; as for BMW's - I like BMW's (actually, I have great admiration for german engineering, if not for the sterotypical American drivers of BMWs) but I look for the most *complete* (and reliable) package in my choice of car and maybe they are "over-engineered"?
-- "obsessed about..." - actually, I had hoped this forum would be about the new IS - it seems even the Edmund writer repeatedly ref'ed BMW and could only compliment the IS with oblique remarks - between BMW praise - wonder what is in his garage?
Better Stereo in an Infiniti... since when did BOSE make anything that sounded half decent?... You should really second guess that statement! And since when did the IS 350 not get a DVD player... And since when did an Infiniti get better leather appointments than the IS 350 (Did your test drive prove this as well? Please tell me about the quality of leather in detail on the IS 350. We all want to know.) Plus, since when were the Infiniti M and IS 350 competitors! For humour's sake, I would LOVE to see a comparo of the M35 and IS 350.
I could go on and on...
PS japcardriver: Let me know how the Mark Levinson system sounded in the IS 350, I would like to know your critique on it, furthermore, you should foreward your findings to the engineers at ML.
Edmunds also got 6.1s for the 2003 260hp G35 in their full test three years ago.
Anyways, the full test is pretty much a repeat of what they said about in their first drive. "Like the car in most respects except VDIM ...."
The thing that kinda disappoints me is the anemic legroom. Combined legroom:
IS350: 74.5 inches
330i: 76.1 inches
G35: 77.2 inclhes
The 3 already feels too cramped for me, so this isn't good news. At least the IS has more trunk space than the GS I guess.
Not just Edmunds but the car mags and other sites seem to go for the higher SKU, even though it's the lower-priced configurations which must have the much greater sales volumes.
Also, what's with putting in comments from posts in the forum from people who haven't seen the car, much less driven it?
I trust they also studied the demographics and preferences of their potential clientele I just wish they had drawn different conclusions and made available a IS350 manual. That is my only gripe. And it may affect my next car purchase. In any case, the new IS sounds like a breakthrough car for Lexus, and will be interesting to test drive it irregardless.
Also, what's with putting in comments from posts in the forum from people who haven't seen the car, much less driven it?
I agree with you, it is amazing some of the smug set-in-stone comments from people who have never seen this car in person, no less driven it. They appear to be defending BMW, Nissan, and others from charges that I haven't heard made. Clearly there are many here whose interests end with BMWs. For those of us who like cars, this should be fun.
I get the jist of what you are saying and agree, however, there's nothing wrong with liking how the car looks and the features it has. There is however something wrong with bashing the car saying it is a geezer mobile and that every single car on the road will drive circles around it especially when only a select few have driven it and things like "razor sharp handling" has been said about its character.
All FINAL opinions should be left for the test drive
That said, that leaves the BMW 3 and the IS 350. I know with my old Lexus, all I had to do was to take it to the scheduled maintenance appointments, put gas in it, and it just drove beautifully without a single hiccup.
Maybe you guys make more money than I do and can afford tinkering with your vehicles all the time. Maybe you don't mind paying for expensive repairs. Or maybe I am just getting a little older and have better things to do than to go the the service department. But I am willing to sacrifice a small amount of performance for the assurance of a car I won't be taking to the shop all the time.
Maybe the IS 350 isn't much of a sacrifice in terms of performance at all. No one except for a few car reviewers has test-driven it. But I'll bet on its combination of performance, luxuriousness, and reliablity to be a great car. Now to just scrape up another 40K+.....
Lexus is not perfect - I'm sure you'll find someone who'll want to Lemon law their IS in the near future - the only diff is that they will do it easier than others.
Is there anything wrong with with not liking an automatic tranny in the bigger six?
That is all I have ever said. But I don't think Lexus is gonna make a car like that. Because they make geezer mobiles. Name one car that hasn't fit that label yet? I've driven almost all of them.
And I agree with the poster that said Lexus makes the best cars in the world. They are. I question the reliability of my Infiniti. I traded in a 1990 Lexus 400LS for the M. The car had 200k miles on it and looked great.I had bought it new. It was just boring to drive. A new LS or GS did not do it for me either. BMW, Jag, Mercedes were maintenance nightmares. I reasoned Infiniti will come close to Toyota in reliability, but was much, much more fun. I'll probably drive the M for 5 or 6 years and give it to own of my children. I hope Lexus is building fun cars by then. The GS had some promise and actually is a pretty good car. LS is too vague on handling. No doubt Toyota can build a very fun car. The Supra is an example. They just have decided to build geezer mobiles. But don't worry, every male in a minivan will pretend to be talking on the phone when you pull up to the light.
The IS has promise. But the confiurations this year, just point to more of the same. Maybe a handicap license plate can add to the look.
FT -- 18" Alloy Wheels with Summer Tires (Not available for AWD)
HW -- Headlamp Washers with Cleaner
ML -- Mark Levinson Premium Audio Package with CD Changer with 14 Speakers
NV -- Nav System
PA -- Park Assist
PM -- Leather Power Seats (a.k.a. Premium Package)
PS -- PreCollision System (PCS) with Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (Not available for manual tranny)
SR -- Moonroof
Packages:
LD -- Premium Luxury Plus 17" AWD (moonroof, HID/AFS, heated seats, wood, illuminated scuff pads, leather)
LL -- Same as above, but for 17" RWD
LT -- Same as above, but for 18" RWD
PT -- Premium Plus (moonroof, heated seats, wood, leather)
SM -- Performance Luxury (18" allows with summer tires, HID/AFS, Sports Suspension, leather)
ST -- Performance Luxury Plus (All of the above with heated seats)
VN -- Nav System with Mark Levinson Audio Package
-----------------------
Pretty much the same as the GS, except that you have a choice of 2 packages for the "base" Level 1 package:
Level 1: Premium Luxury Plus or Performance Luxury Plus
Level 2: Navi/Levinson
Level 3: PCS/DCC
Over the years, lexus has tried to change that, but they are still going to luxury first and performance second because that's what their customer base expects. That being said, wait around a few years and you'll see some high performance cars from lexus since they have said they will go that route in order to take on the BWM Ms and the Benz AMGs, as well as audi Ss.
I just think if you all you want to say is that I'm not getting the car becuase it doesn't have a manual, just say it and move on, don't start bashing the companies for making geezer mobiles and stuff like that. I think Toyota and lexus know what they are doing and they are going for profit, just like any other company out there and they seem to be damn good at it too. They make cars for the Average joe and the Average Joe isn't a racer.
For the Record, I'm one of those racer people and I own a car with a manual and I'd like to see one in the IS350 as well, but if I car get performance and luxury without a manual in the mix, then that's fine with me because I really like everything else about the car and it not having a manual wont stop me from getting, what I think is the most sexy looking car in the class as well as the one with finest interior.
Now lets all just wait for the testing of actual Production cars and not PREproduction cars.
The bimmer crowd are here simply to bash this car. Pure and simple. Or why are they here ? Except for BGDC who is at least willing to test drive the car, none of the other BMW apologists want one, just to find the weak links from test drives and say: "There, I told you so... it ain't gonna come close to our all-encompassing, omnipotent e90"
The IS350 review is a PREproduction car. That won't be the final car you buy at the dealership in October. Clearly there would be biases from one reviewer to another. Already, it is clear Edmunds' lead reviewer has a VDIM bias stemming from the new GS. If you read through the bias tho' what you find is an excellent car from Lexus in the IS350. It is a luxurious car, with class-leading safety features. The styling is a breath of fresh air from the stale e90 look, the interior is gorgeous unlike the spartan e90, and the handling and drive of the car is wonderful as well. Maybe the exhaust note could be louder and richer, maybe the car could use a 6MT, maybe the car could .... But, guess what, no car has it all, otherwise we'd all be driving the same vehicle.
Personally for me, about the single decision factor is PRICING. If Lexus gets that right, all these bashing will be for nothing cos demand will greatly outpace supply, if the price is right !
So Lexus, if you are listening, get the pricing right...and they shall come...
The bimmer crowd are here simply to bash this car. Pure and simple.
Do I sense a bit of BMW paranoia here?
Not everyone who is not ecstatic about the new IS is a Bimmer fan, including Karl Bauer.
There's the difference. I like my car, but I can be easily swayed to something else - like the IS350. I'm not loyal when it comes to cars and my car has betrayed me too many times to even consider loyalty to the brand.
I felt forced into driving a BMW back in the late 1990s due to the steady decline of available sporty sedans with a stick shift, and as such, I welcome any and all other alternatives in that market space. A considerable number of other BMW drivers that I've communicated with over the years have also expressed similar sentiments. That having been said, when the brass at Toyota/Lexus stated that they were bringing to market a car targeted directly at the 3-Series, I took note as did many other folks. Unfortunately I don't even need a test drive to know that Lexus missed the mark by a wide enough margin that it won't be my next car. That statement is in no way bashing what is promising to be a fine car, it is a simple statement of fact that it doesn't meet my personal criteria for a new car.
Paranoia? Not from me. Bashing? No. Critical of the folks that made early statements regarding the new IS? Yes, I quite simply feel like I was given a look at a nice juicy lolly-pop, only to have it whisked away from my grasp at the last minute.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Well I don't know what country you live in but here in the U.S.A. at least, there was never any such a thing as a 2000 325Ci.
Best Regards,
Shipo
http://biz.yahoo.com/weekend/value_1.html
But your anecdotal evidence is as good as mine( I am a frugal accountant who managed to service a 3 series for 7 years without breaking my piggy bank).
So let us look at the REAL WORLD versus our own small worlds.
The 3 series rated by JD Power, CR and IQS are IMPRESSIVE. Quality/reliabilty in BMW 3 series are a NON-ISSUE for the general population(unless you are a IS apologist)
It appears now reliability is the key reason to buy an IS! That really would be a sad situation especially when a Hyundai Sonata is the most reliable car in USA(CR for 2004 cars)
Chevy and Ford build cars for the majority. Toyota has a wide mark. Lexus builds for the 150k/yr, 50 something. Geezers.
IS350 2WD: 4,800,000Yen;
IS250 2WD: 3,900,000Yen;
IS250 4WD: 4,250,000Yen;
That compares to a GS430: 6,300,000Yen; (which we know the U.S. Price)
Or if you use 1US$=110 Yen, the IS350 starts $43,636, while 2WD IS250 starts $35454? GS430: $57272 (using Japan price)
GS430 MSRP: $51,775 (US)
So looks like Toyota use $1US = 122 Yen or so?
That will make the IS250: $31967. IS350: $39344.
So maybe under $32K for IS250, and under $40K for IS350. In either case, IS250 won't be cheapr than the IS300 it replaces.
One only has to take a look at the 2006 Camry price to figure that out! come 2006 Spring, 2007 Camry will be another 3% - 5% more. The Brand name of Toyota is like Gold! It ranked ahead of Benz and BMW in the Business week world brand name ranking at 2005.
What does a deposit commit you to?
To buy at MSRP? Did you get to specify color and option choices?
Infiniti G35 is not.
Acura TSX.
So where is Toyota getting it's estimates?
The sad part for me is the Supra Turbo as probably the best sports car EVER to leave Japan, and 5 YEARS ahead of any sports car on the market.
If Toyota puts here head down, and concentrates, they can build a better 3, ust like the LS was the best luxury car you could buy from 1989 on.
Edmunds' report tells menothing that would make me want to buy the car, UNLESS DRIVING ENJOYMENT is an extremely low priority.
Since the ES has boredom perfected, what is the point of the IS?
It has sexy, non-Lexus style, so at least they did something, but why buy it over an ES?
It has a smaller back seat, less power (250), no resale value, smaller trunk, harder ride. And 5 or six babysitters, telling you not to have fun in this car? What's the point of this car?
Now it's over 6 seconds to sixty? Add 2 seconds for the 250, easy.
I like that Japanese currency conversion. $32k for the 250, $39k for the 350 sounds rght to me (as what Lexus will do).
The GS430 I MIGHT understand turning out as a psuedo-sports-sedan. The IS is supposed to have an edge, bring in conquest sales.
Who is their target buyer? TSX-intenders who want .1 liters dispalcement? 64MPH through the cones with 18's? Are you kidding me? What a let down!
Poseurs, your chariot awaits!
DrFill
" It's one of the most capable sport sedans on the market, yet BMW purists will hate it."
The IS was never designed to be a 3-Series. It's a Lexus, and it would be silly for Lexus to ignore its heritage by making a sport sedan. From what I gather, the IS is still plenty sporty and rather fast, but not BMW nimble. So? It's a lot more luxurious. Poser's car? That's a rather cheap shot. I would personally call any of these cars (3, IS, A4, G35) poser cars because in most cases, they offer the posh nameplate without the luxury.
EXACTLY RIGHT!!
But unfortuantely Lexus and the chief engineer of the IS think of the IS as a sport sedan! Lexus should call a spade a spade and refer to the IS for what it really is:
An entry level luxury car that is below the GS.
But if that is the case, where does the ES fit in? It appears that the future of the Lexus ES may follow the same track to oblivion as the Infiniti I30/35.
An entry level luxury car that is below the GS.
Phew ! what a revelation !!!! And all this based on a single drive of a PRE-production car..... Are we making a mountain out of a molehill or what ? Some will simply look at glass is half-empty and proclaim the car is a dud, others see it differently. All signs, so far, points to a very successful car. Whether the Bimmer crowd likes it or not, the new IS will be a HUGE success. In fact, Lexus won't be able to keep up the demand for the IS350, that will be the problem Lexus will have.
My hope was for a 3-series caliber car with Lexus reliability (and manual transmission in the 350)... it would be a no-brainer.
But, based on this latest review (and the specs) sounds like we'll still have to choose between driving excitement and reliability.
If the IS starts stealing a lot of sales away from the ES then it might happen - otherwise it will be around for a while. Lexus just can't kill it even if it doesn't fit in the lineup - just too much of a cash cow. Considering that the ES will get another model lifeline (ES350 based on the next Camry) -I can't se how Lexus would kill it off in the next 4-5 years at the earliest. Lexus could care less what combination of cars it takes at the entry level as long as they can sell 80-100k of them per year - I'm sure they wouldn't mind if they're all ISes.