The Future Of The Manual Transmission

stickguy · February 2014

Toyota had it within the last few years. In theory.

elias · February 2014

I'm looking forward to ordering a manual-shift 2015 GMC colorado or chevy canyon in a few months... Extended cab... There won't be a regular-cab. Maybe I'll wait until 2016, but probably not, because in 8 months from now there will be a new driver in the house to drive my M6 chevy cruze.

(btw, All new regular-cab pickups will be disappearing soon due to change in how "CAFE" is measured, if they haven't already.)

Cruze M6 lifetime mpg has dropped below 33, over 58k miles so far, since I've been doing fewer long-highway cruises, and usually prefer the 22 mpg M6 GTO for the long rides.

manual-shift FTW !

nippononly · February 2014

Read an article this week that said 1/3 of all Corvettes are bought with a manual...I thought someone in here said it was a much lower number.

I don't get sports car buyers who buy automatics...it removes so much of the involvement of the drive...

ruking1 · February 2014

It was probably me that said it, with 20 % of the passenger vehicle fleet being M/T. But the lower % is more OVERALL not just 1/3 of Corvettes for one or two models years being M/T.

So for example the 2001 Corvette Z06 was 100 % 6 speed M/T's. I don't recalled the exact total Corvette sales that year but it was app 33/34k. So with 5995 Z06 sales that put Corvette MT sales @ a minimum of 18%. When you add app 20% of the other line being M/T (+5.6k) That year was more like 34% M/T's. So if Chevrolet offered a A/T option in the Z06, most certainly the % would have been FAR lower than 34%.

For me, I would prefer a sports car with an M/T.

mcdawgg · February 2014

@nippononly said:
Met someone today with a stick shift Camry, that rarest of all beasts! Toyota hasn't offered one of those in what, ten years?

I'm disappointed in Subaru over the Legacy...

2011 was the last model year for 6 speed manual transmission Camry.

ruking1 · February 2014

To state the obvious, NOT offering an M/T in the (bread & butter) Toyota Camry lines and other model lines ( too numerous to mention {continually diminishing MT offerings} ) has not hurt Toyota in any to all the metrics it choses to measure in the process of serving the markets, it choses to serve. If anything, they HIT habitually the #'s 1,2,3 place in world wide auto oem rankings.(other players are GM,VW)

On a practical level, I think they (the food chain) are more persuaded by the M/T equipped vehicles (any to all model lines) that either are hard to sell, have to discount abnormally or a combination of both or remain on the dealer's lots an "abnormally" long time. Do not discount the A/T sells for @ least 1k over the "standard" M/T. In terms of what folks ACTUALLY buy the term "standard" is actually misused to reversed.

The real improvement is even as it sits on one dealers' lot a LONG time, it is listed in the over all US logistics system. So in effect if there is a Toyota M/T buyer/driver in down town Washington D.C and the dream machine is in rural Georgia, there is an almost instant hook up.

stever · February 2014

CAFE probably has more to do with the switch away from manuals in the US than anything. There's nothing wrong with a manual that some savvy advertising couldn't "fix". New automatics and CVTs just get better mpg, at least on the EPA tests.

dudleyr · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
CAFE probably has more to do with the switch away from manuals in the US than anything. There's nothing wrong with a manual that some savvy advertising couldn't "fix". New automatics and CVTs just get better mpg, at least on the EPA tests.

Just not in real life. CR has been doing head to head tests of MT and AT of the same model for years and the MT always wins. And yes that includes automated manuals like the VW TDI. EPA favors automatics because they can be tuned to match the EPA test.

stever · February 2014

Kind of like having a crash that's not "in the book". You wind up with unintended consequences when you design for the test. So now we're stuck with automatics and the real world CAFE fleet numbers are a smidge lower than they could be.

That supposition overlooks the large numbers of "sporty" MT drivers who love to drag race from one red light to the next.

ruking1 · February 2014

@dudleyr said:
Just not in real life. CR has been doing head to head tests of MT and AT of the same model for years and the MT always wins. And yes that includes automated manuals like the VW TDI. EPA favors automatics because they can be tuned to match the EPA test.

You might agree with this (or not). The fly in the ointment , or what I refer to as the 800# gorilla in the room is the correct combination (12 Passat 2.0 L 4 cylinder TDI with (only a LOW tech) 6 speed manual transmission) TRUMPS LOADs of complicated high tech. This is assembled in the USA !! (Chattanooga, TN) The H EPA rating is @ 43 mpg, which is "segment leading".

The Taylor's set a one tank record of 84 mpg +PLUS . Wayne Gerdes (who actually is an Edmunds.com posting alumnus) set an app 8,200 miles trip @ 77+plus mpg trip record

autotrader.com/research/article/car-news/210689/volkswagen-passat-tdi-sets-world-record-for-fuel-economy.jsp

Notice it beat HIS own hybrid record. Nobody else threw up a hybrid against either of them that beat EITHER record, including himself.

The M/T nexus here:

IF a slush box 4/5/6/7/8/9 speed, 6/7/8 speed DSG, CVT, et al., could have beaten the (relatively) low tech 6 speed M/T, they most certainly would have !!!!! So the interesting thing given the 7 speed Tremec in the 14 Corvette Stingray (rumored to post 30 mpg) all VW would have to do is to add another GEAR !! ???

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

@nippononly said:
Read an article this week that said 1/3 of all Corvettes are bought with a manual...I thought someone in here said it was a much lower number.

I don't get sports car buyers who buy automatics...it removes so much of the involvement of the drive...

I'll give you my theory---it's not much fun rowing a gearshift in big, heavy, wide supercars. With that size and enormous power a gearshift is just one more distraction you don't need if you are the type of driver who likes to go 9/10th sometime.

also the Corvette demographic is rather aged, and you know, creaky knees and elbows and all that.

If I ever bought a new or near new Vette or Ferrari, I'd certainly opt for the DSG type of transmission because I'd intend to drive the crap out of it. I mean, it's ridiculous (to me) to have a car that goes 65 mph in first gear. To what purpose?

ruking1 · February 2014

I have never had any issues taking a Corvette on two lane winding rolling hills kind of roads; Highway One as the iconic example (about as west as one can get within eye shot of falling in the western drink, aka Pacific Ocean. However those iconic roads were not ever designed to carry huge loads of traffic, nor for "higher speed" conveyance. Now if one likes the engine screaming like a banshee, and working the clutch and shifting gears like a mad person, wind in the hair, etc. then really the "Japanese" Triumph/Bug Eye Sprite (you know the drill) Miata, Mini might be in the element, until one comes up on a SLOW moving RV dragging a small car behind it. They are usually not local types and understand that CA law about holding up 5 cars...... Now can you really blame them? They just don't want the breakfast dishes to go flying around in the house.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Well sure in a Bug Eye the acceleration is about as fast as the earth's crust cooling, but a supercharged Mini can move out right quick for passing and there's still room at the guard rail. In a Corvette on the Pacific Hwy you only need one gear, like 3rd, for the entire day's journey.

ruking1 · February 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Well sure in a Bug Eye the acceleration is about as fast as the earth's crust cooling, but a supercharged Mini can move out right quick for passing and there's still room at the guard rail. In a Corvette on the Pacific Hwy you only need one gear, like 3rd, for the entire day's journey.

10 to 12 seconds pass ( in the WRONG lane) can feel like forever, or can be the gateway TO forever !

Be careful out there ! (as they used to say in an OLD cop show !)

One gear pass? Works for me !! (in a pinch or IF I mess up) Normally it is a signal, lamps on, double declutch, drop into the appropriate gear, signal, pull out to pass, pass, (sometimes shift) put back in, up shift. It almost takes longer to put this to print. While I love the sounds, I can see why some folks do not like them. Anymore, I am into "let sleeping dogs lie."

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Any gear is a passing gear in a new Corvette. The Mini has about 180HP, that's plenty good for passing, after a downshift of course, to spool up the turbo or the supercharger.

ruking1 · February 2014

Either in a Corvette, 385 hp, Jetta TDI, 90 hp, its all good ! (your case Mini 180 hp) ! Actually just got back from a client's site, rowing over and back on highway one ! Only did 50.7 mpg . So sad!

hpmctorque · February 2014

I enjoy the manual transmission in my Fiat 500, but agree with Shifty regarding the newer Corvettes and similar cars. Any late model, high powered car I would own would be automatic. That wouldn't have been the case with the performance cars of the '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s, when automatics had fewer gears and more slippage. The exception, back in the day, was the Hydra-Matic, before it was coupled with a torque converter. It featured 4 speeds, at a time when most manuals had 3, and little slippage.

ruking1 · February 2014

They are probably some of the good reasons why you don't have one (Corvette or a Corvette M/T) or are in the dwindling demographic GM aims @ or sells to. Additionally, we are not going back to those days: whether M/T's die a death, expand, contract or stay in arrested population decay.

I do not keep up with this, but Chevrolet Corvette management for YEARS have only built cars with someone's NAME on it, i.e.., a pretty definite paying customer (dealer, entities, individuals, etc.), albeit the majority being A/T with optional to standard 6/7 speed M/T's IN the minority. Now there are folks that do a deposit and cancel or change their minds for one reason or another. I am swaging they are an unknown smaller percentage. I also have seen in passing that 13 Corvette sales are @ app 17.291 k. I do not know what they expect to sell in 14 MY. So in effect, new car buyers really do not need to "settle" for A/T, M/T.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Corvette is off to a really good start in 2014. Sales have been dropping steadily since 2002 (drastically, actually) but 2013 was an uptick.

ruking1 · February 2014

I am not sure what 14 MY YTD sales @ 2,261 portends.

I do know that the rest of GM is not shy about usings its parts bin ! ? Cadillac makes almost no secret it uses Corvette engines (variants) . I have seen in passing that Cadillac also offers at least one manual transmission option? LOL, this ain't yo daddies caddie?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

It portends well, based on past January sales since 2010. I think the Cadillac still IS your daddy's Cadillac, but Daddy is just a bit more hip.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2014

2015 Mazda 2 (codenamed Hazumi)

The future of the manual transmission is alive and well, dudes.

stickguy · March 2014

looks a lot nicer than the current model.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2014

stickguy - the current model looks so "econobox" and the new one looks much sportier. Driving dynamics may not end up differing all that much when it's all built and done, though. That'll be one of those things ta check closely on when test-driving and researching the new car online.

xwesx · March 2014

Hopefully it has more head room in the rear seats! The current M2's vertical rear seat space is atrocious. I wrote it off immediately after trying the "sit behind yourself" test. Never even bothered to drive it (the fact that the dealer didn't have any MT models in stock was a contributing factor on that count, I'll admit).

kristin409 · March 2014

Does anyone have any idea for a 4wd or Awd manual? I can't, and won't, flex on either of those options. I miss a stick sooooo bad, and I have the driveway of death in the winter. Basically, all I can find is a wrangler (not doing it, poc) or subys. I could go as high as 32k, but no more. I hate that the charger is awd, but no manual available, and the challenger is a manual, but no awd. Can anybody give this girl any ideas?

dudleyr · March 2014

Mini Paceman or Countryman. Both start at about $27-28 with AWD and a manual. . Coopers are great little cars and very frugal, but not the most reliable. They will have a decent warranty if you get them new. I would probably be more inclined to get a Mazda CX-5 and put really good snow tires on in the winter.

If you don't mind a pickup, I think you can still get a 4WD stick from Toyota and Nissan.

Jeep Patriot has AWD and manual as do Kia Sportage, Nissan Xterra, Toyota FJ Cruiser, and Suzuki SX4.

bpeebles · March 2014

@kristin409 said:
Does anyone have any idea for a 4wd or Awd manual?

I am pretty sure that Subaru offers manual xmission in all of its models. Subie makes one of the best awd systems in the world. All they sell is awd and their end-to-end design is around awd. If there is traction, a subie will find it and get you moving.

There are several youTube videos which scientifically matchup Subaru with other AWD vehicles. (Audi, Honda, KIA/Hyundi....etc) In EVERY case, the Subaru is able to get moving when ANY SINGLE WHEEL has traction. (not so much the other contenders)

Additionally, Subaru has proven to be very reliable over the years and has been awarded top-safety-picks too. BONUS: Subaru sells the MOST FUEL EFFICENT awd in America.

xwesx · March 2014

I think you pretty much summed up your options, Kristin! Most of the other manufacturers that even offer manuals on vehicles with a 4WD/AWD option do not make the MT available on the 4-wheel drive trains. It's a sad deal, but the truth often is.

I think you can still get mid-size pickups (Nissan for sure, not sure about Toyota or GM products) with 4WD and a manual, but still limited to the low-level trims. Also, are there no other Jeep models with an MT/4WD option?

Even Subaru is slimming the MT options. Forester selection is X model only now (as opposed to X-Premium in the prior gen and throughout the lineup in G1/2), I think the Impreza models are the same, and Outback/Legacy, which are limited to low trims through 14, will be gone in 15 altogether. But, you can get a WRX in any trim with a manual!

When I bought my 2010 Forester five years ago, one of the reasons it was so easy to choose that car was because there really were not any other options that fit the bill and came in at the price we wanted.

nippononly · April 2014

@xwesx said:

Even Subaru is slimming the MT options. Forester selection is X model only now (as opposed to X-Premium in the prior gen and throughout the lineup in G1/2),

Good news on that front! For 2015 Soob is bringing BACK the Forester Premium trim with the stick (now with 6 speeds of course), so you can get a power seat and the big moonroof without having to settle for the godawful CVT - yay Soob! :-)

Next step: to convince them how insane it is to have a turbo Forester with only a CVT for a transmission choice. ;-)

ruking1 · April 2014

Good luck with that !! One reasonable way to send a "real message" is for turbo Forester customers to ONLY buy NON CVT's. The other issues are the cost advantages (less cost to them) are overwhelming. Another practical one is I am sure the 6 speed manual they use is top notch. However the range of durability and reliability is really dependent on individual drivers: from lasting 500,000 miles to trashing a clutch in one track session.

xwesx · April 2014

@ruking1 said:
the range of durability and reliability is really dependent on individual drivers: from lasting 500,000 miles to trashing a clutch in one track session.

That's the case for any car's mechanical parts, albeit to a slightly lesser degree. That said, overall, I agree with you on the "good luck with that" sentiment! Forester is not intended to be a sporty car, even in the turbo trim, so maintaining two transmission choices in a halo trim level just doesn't add up.

stickguy · April 2014

A loaded stick forester. Could be a nice option vs. a next gen Golf. If I hit lotto.

ruking1 · April 2014

@stickguy said:
A loaded stick forester. Could be a nice option vs. a next gen Golf. If I hit lotto.

Good luck with that one !! One of the latest $425 M winners of "CA Power Ball" got his ticker close to the house. It hasn't rubbed off on me.

I read that he elected the lump sum option and after taxes $ 265 M and probably some change.

stever · May 2014

"A whopping 40 percent of buyers equip their Corvette Stingray with the manual transmission. The rest of the buyers select the six-speed paddle-shift automatic transmission."

2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Buyers Love Manual Transmission, Z51 Performance Package

kyfdx · May 2014

What a timely post... was just looking at my friend's new C7, this morning.. manual tranny.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2014

With all that torque you could eliminate about half those gears and not even notice!

ruking1 · May 2014

As good as the Corvette 6 speed A/T has been, it almost seems a crime that a 6 speed A/T is continued to be offered as an option against a 7 speed M/T (Tremec? best of breed) It would seem an 8 speed A/T (bullet proof) is more in order.

stever · May 2014

"Next year, an optional eight-speed automatic transmission will debut on Corvette, although GM has not spelled out whether the base car or the uplevel Corvette Z06 will get the new transmission."

ruking1 · May 2014

Yes I did read the article. Seems like they might have had and still have a myriad of concerns, as GM bought an A/T ZF factory, (I read in passing somewhere in Ohio, not long after they sold an excess capacity A/T plant somewhere else) , not long ago. (GM makes 8 speed A/T under ZF license/franchise or whatever operating/legal procedue)

Mr_Shiftright · May 2014

if it's a really good AT, and fast and intelligent, that's the way to go on this car I think.

ruking1 · May 2014

Yes for sure ! BUT there can be a Grand Canyon type chasm between should and IS. Otherwise it would seem totally killer to offer a 7 speed M/T and 8 speed A/T in such an ALREADY awesome package.

stever · May 2014

@ruking1 said:
Yes I did read the article.

That extra quote was for the benefit of those skimming.

Way too many shift points though - one thing that's appealing about the xB (on paper anyway) is that it's "just" a five speed.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2014

I could see with a gimpy engine like on an xB, the car would be hunting all day for one of the 8 gears, but on a Corvette I don't think the trans would hunt very much at all.

stever · May 2014

Hm, don't know what the automatic is in the xB offhand. The 5 speed I was referring to was the manual.

I'd probably stick the manual Vette in second and call it good for the rest of the day.

kyfdx · May 2014

We have an 8-speed automatic in our X3. It's very unobtrusive. I never notice it... and, I hated the 6-speed auto that came in the '08 model..

nippononly · May 2014

@cunhaefc said:
Man the day the manual transmission disappears altogether will be a sad day indeed. It's the connection between driver and machine that get's lost and well, that's just a shame.

And we have already lost the steering with the transition to electric - now the wheel is just this limp thing with weird, programmed resistance off center and no indication of what is going on with the front tires.

elias · May 2014

good point re the electric steering, n.o.
it may be time for a new forum subject 'the future of hydraulic power steering' ? let us lament its disappearance.
(fwiw, many performance-car-people seem to prefer electric steering now since it takes zero power from the engine. alternatively they use under-drive-pulleys on the power-steering-pump.)

Michaell · May 2014

Apparently, there is one place that still demands 3 pedals:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/06/quebecs-obsession-with-no-frills-cars/

Mr_Shiftright · May 2014

ca marche pour moi!

The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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