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United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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Comments

  • berriberri Posts: 10,166

    When the quote is from the heritage organization, that's a very biased, far right lobbyist group. I seldom put much faith in anything a lobbyist puts out, and particularly when they are on the extreme right or left. I think you can find support from less controversial sources. Also, be careful of getting drawn into the micro-economic without consideration of the macro aspects as well. That said, the GM BK and extreme UAW settlement bias seemed an abuse of the American BK legal system and precedence. But then , our legal system and courts, including the Supreme Court, seem to have become politically biased and motivated like the other two branches of government. That is sad, and ultimately dangerous to our society.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238

    30BN, how long would it take for the Praetorian sector to eat that? I doubt the very biased Heritage cronies have questioned that particular financial black hole. No doubt some of the ways the money was used might have not been fair or just...no different from the pet sectors of the so-called right.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @berri said:
    When the quote is from the heritage organization, that's a very biased, far right lobbyist group.

    Yes it is a conservative think tank. However that is Congressional hearing material. I am thankful there are people that keep this kind of injustice before the powers that be. I consider our country to be in real bad shape as a result of poor decisions by both parties and their respective leaders.

    I consider Unions especially Public employees and the UAW to be a big part of our denigration. I spent 46 years in 3 different Unions. I was thankful for the pay and benefits. Most of the time it was a political balance, as most of the people were GOP even though the Teamsters backed the losing Democrats in Alaska. I don't see the Unions as being for the Workers as in the past.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,697
    edited March 2014

    The UAW lost an organizing attempt at a local Caterpillar warehouse that is relatively new.
    The author of the local newsletter for a Peoria Illinois UAW chapter says the company used every trick in the book to tell people not to vote for the union.

    I hadn't even heard about this mentioned on the news about an organizing effort. After the UAW was so strong her with all the GM manufacturing 20 or so years ago, I guess people don't trust them now.

    uawlocal974.org/Newsletters/archived/LOCAL_974_NEWS_-2013-_DECEMBER.pdf

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited March 2014

    The POTUS cannot spend a dime without approval or prior allotment. He may very well do discretionary spending that would tick off a lot of people, but that money got voted to him legally to spend. In other words, the POTUS has no checkbook. If he's "spending" money, he either asked permission from an oversight committee, gets a vote on it from Congress, or it was "his" to spend by prior allotment. He may even try to use a 'signing statement" (executive order) to over-ride say, a sudden "defunding" of an allotment (can't think of one offhand, but that's possible), or he can be tricky and re-name a position that was defunded for political revenge. So there are ways to wiggle around the system but the POTUS cannot just 'grab' money from the pot and spend it. Well, he CAN spend his own salary as he wishes---I think that's around 400K a year.

    OH---important one---the President is ordered under the Constitution to pay ALL DEBTS. So refusing to default may in fact be Constitutional---that interpretation is a bit over my head, but interesting.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    @imidazol97 said:
    The UAW lost an organizing attempt at a local Caterpillar warehouse that is relatively new.
    The author of the local newsletter for a Peoria Illinois UAW chapter says the company used every trick in the book to tell people not to vote for the union.

    I hadn't even heard about this mentioned on the news about an organizing effort. After the UAW was so strong her with all the GM manufacturing 20 or so years ago, I guess people don't trust them now.

    uawlocal974.org/Newsletters/archived/LOCAL_974_NEWS_-2013-_DECEMBER.pdf

    It's not like the UAW's activities over the last couple of decades have done anything to actually preserve or increase jobs. Most people are aware of that, which is perhaps why the UAW is having so much trouble.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @[email protected] said:
    The POTUS cannot spend a dime without approval or prior allotment. He may very well do discretionary spending that would tick off a lot of people, but that money got voted to him legally to spend. In other words, the POTUS has no checkbook.

    All true, I am still ticked about Solyndra. That was a very good example of politcal paybacks. It was against the advice of the DOE as well. They knew the company was not going to make it when they guaranteed the half billion dollar loan. And even worse the state of CA will end up picking up a tab for $millions to clean up their environmental mess in your neighborhood.

    http://nlpc.org/stories/2013/10/28/stimulus-dirty-little-secret-unaccounted-toxic-solar-waste

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited March 2014

    Let me know when they repeal Price-Anderson and maybe I'll get a bit upset over solar subsidies.

    Back to Tlong's comment, this op-ed from the Detroit Free Press fits right in.

    "Union dues are a tax.

    And what do workers get for paying this work tax? Better wages? No.

    Job security? Not quite.

    A voice? Please."

    Back to the strange bedfellows part, VW against interveners in Chattanooga union vote appeal. (timesfreepress.com).

    "Volkswagen says in a letter to the National Labor Relations Board that the company doesn’t support groups representing some Chattanooga plant workers seeking to intervene in the United Auto Workers appeal of last month’s union vote."

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    "Volkswagen says in a letter to the National Labor Relations Board that the company doesn’t support groups representing some Chattanooga plant workers seeking to intervene in the United Auto Workers appeal of last month’s union vote."

    There is a poll on that link. I see about 53% think they should get another vote. I think the UAW wants the NLRB to over turn the vote and make them the winners. Another vote could be very dangerous for UAW credibility. If the 200 people that did not vote come out and make it a worse defeat for the Union, what then?

    My guess is a lot of Michigan members will bail on the UAW when this contract expires in 2015. Like the article says what are they getting for those dues. And the increase that was announced before the VW election probably had more negative effect than all the political blathering. They would not need an increase in dues if the workers were getting an increase in pay. The dues are self rising. Two hours pay is plenty. My dues in the Teamsters was less than an hours pay.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited March 2014

    I missed the poll. Another losing vote in Chattanooga for the UAW would really hurt, but I don't know what choice they have. Well, actually, they'd probably be better off chilling on the vote, take another year to work on VW organizing and refocus on their midterm election efforts.

    Tossing in some education about why unions actually offer something useful to workers would be a big help too.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @[email protected] said:
    I missed the poll. Another losing vote in Chattanooga for the UAW would really hurt, but I don't know what choice they have. Well, actually, they'd probably be better off chilling on the vote, take another year to work on VW organizing and refocus on their midterm election efforts.

    Tossing in some education about why unions actually offer something useful to workers would be a big help too.

    If the UAW is able to get rid of the two tiers and bring the bottom up above the transplants, they may have a better shot at expanding in the South. It looked to the most casual observer that VW and the UAW were in cahoots against the workers. Just to satisfy the Union in Germany. The average worker at VW would take a cut in pay if they joined the UAW working for one of the D3.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,697

    @gagrice said:
    If the UAW is able to get rid of the two tiers and bring the bottom up above the transplants...

    I believe that will never happen. Big mistake on the part of the UAW and administration not to have required the Big Dogs with high seniority to give up some pay for the benefit of the lower tier. However, keeping the top pay earners with their outrageous pay and benefits maintained the support for the vote support machinery in the UAW.

    On the other hand the lower tier workers see that they are expendable to the high seniority guys and the UAW leadership with their own superior pay and retirement packages all on the backs of the workers at the lower wages.

    Here in this area, there were so many people burned by only being employed at the new low wage in various GM/Delphi shops, only to be the first to be laid off OR to be required to move to Louisiana or Mexico or similar to keep a Delphi job, that people have learned.

    Worse was that most of those who moved, bore that expense and then lost their job there in the end and moved back to Ohio.

    The more I think about the UAW's having lost the vote at the Caterpillar warehousing location here near Dayton, the less surprised I am. People here learned how some unions work to the benefit of the leadership and the Big Dogs--not to the general workers' benefits.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @imidazol97 said:

    The more I think about the UAW's having lost the vote at the Caterpillar warehousing location here near Dayton, the less surprised I am. People here learned how some unions work to the benefit of the leadership and the Big Dogs--not to the general workers' benefits.

    To me when the UAW accepted the current contract with the D3 they were no longer a viable Union. Having wage steps is fine. When the newbies can only dream about making the big bucks there is a disconnect between the members of the Union. When Oil prices went in the toilet in the mid 1980s our work load was cut in half. We laid off half the crew. The company said there is no way we can continue to work the 10 hour per day schedule. They offered to keep the top seniority guys, me included on 10 hour days and cut the other half of the crew to 8 hours. We said no way would that work. So we all got cut back to 8 hours a day. We lost 3 hours pay per day which was a significant cut in pay. We did not give up our unity in the crew. I consider the top guys in the UAW as plain greedy. The UAW will continue to lose people and elections.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    @[email protected] said:

    Back to Tlong's comment, this op-ed from the Detroit Free Press fits right in.

    "Union dues are a tax.

    And what do workers get for paying this work tax? Better wages? No.

    Job security? Not quite.

    A voice? Please."

    One thing the union seems to give workers is less likelihood of being fired unless the offense is especially grevious. If you're just "lousy", the job stays secure. Also, pay is seniority-dependent and not performance-dependent, unlike many non-union jobs.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238

    Save for the public sector, which nobody is yet willing to call out, not to mention touch.

    @tlong said:

    unlike many non-union jobs.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    This shows what Union mentality can do to a whole country. It breeds entitlement. This short piece on the French brain drain talks about Good Year bailing on the lazy French workforce at their tire factory.

    http://www.cbn.com/tv/3254023064001

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462

    @gagrice said:
    When the newbies can only dream about making the big bucks there is a disconnect between the members of the Union.

    Could be worse - instead of being Tier 2, they could be employed by a staffing agency.

    "Lead us not into Temp-nation.

    Yates is like a company within a company, with separate bulletin boards and rules and procedures. The bona fide Nissan employees are easily recognizable through their logoed shirts, which Yates workers don't receive. And the disparity isn't just symbolic. Yates pays between $10 and $18 an hour, which is about half what Nissan employees make. Plus, the gap in benefits is wide. "

    This is what a job in the U.S.’ new manufacturing industry looks like (washingtonpost.com)

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    This is what a job in the U.S.’ new manufacturing industry looks like

    This is Hope and Change:

    Tennessee went from having 51,867 temporary workers in 2009 to 80,990 in 2012, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics -- while median wages have stayed flat.

    How can you blame the manufacturers? We live in a temporary age. There is NO stability. You can set up shop and the next year the EPA says you can't do that anymore it is polluting. Or the state says you are making too much money we are going to raise your taxes. We are at the Beach home of a very successful lady we went to High School with. She tells us horror stories about dealings with employees and worse the state. Her family has over 1000 apartments, a long stretch of commercial buildings and a resort. They are losing about half a million a year. They would sell it all if they could find a buyer or buyers. And they do pay 100% of their employee's HC. Which has just gone up significantly. Their construction company is Union, but has been idle since the crash. The 1% that are getting richer have moved their manufacturing offshore or better yet just contract it out to companies in Asia. We are lucky to have companies like Nissan, Honda and Toyota willing to go through the BS involved with manufacturing in the USA. Fortunately not all states are horrible to deal with. So they get the jobs.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238
    edited March 2014

    Median wages staying flat - pretty much the story for most Americans in the race to the bottom globalized new reality for many years No hope and change about that - Daddy's Wallet couldn't solve that. Nobody moves to TN or similar areas for prosperity, they do it because lower wages beat no wages.

    Offshoring and similar moves should be treated as a form of treason. Use an existing system to build up (often unearned) wealth, then run away when it comes time to pay it forward. Just like those who escape to tax havens should be treated as persona non grata.

    If someone has a family empire with 1000+ units and other properties and is losing a mere 500K, they might not be doing too poorly. They could sell, they probably expect 2006 prices, or bought in at the wrong time. Some born lucky property holdings can be kind of sketchy, used as job creation tools for devilspawn who will pretend they built it themselves. Hard for me to have sympathy, with what I witness in my area anyway.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    edited March 2014

    The economy was destroyed in 2006 and it's never coming back to pre 2006 levels. When you take out all the chips from a poker game, the game stops.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238

    Even in my relatively affluent area, prices still lag late 2006 bubble levels by a bit. I know in places like much of the southeast, it might never return even with inflation. It was a mess that makes any bubbles today look like nothing. And cutting wages and benefits won't right the ship.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490

    I suspect the criticism and dire warnings of some noted economists might be coming true--that capitalism, for all its merits as a wealth-generating engine, is basically at heart pathological in nature and does not know when to stop before it kills the host.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    @fintail said:
    Save for the public sector, which nobody is yet willing to call out, not to mention touch.

    Agreed.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    This is a real switch. Suing your employer so they will not help the UAW.

    Lawyers for three Chattanooga Volkswagen workers who have sued the carmaker in federal court have asked for a preliminary injunction to prevent VW from providing organizing assistance to the United Auto Workers in the event of a revote.

    "Obviously, the Volkswagen employees who filed this case hope first and foremost that their vote is not overturned as requested by UAW officials," said Patrick Semmens of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation. "But in the event that the NLRB does throw out the results of the vote, a preliminary injunction would help ensure a more level playing field during a rerun."

    Court papers said the workers want to keep Volkswagen from paying or delivering "organizing assistance, and things of value similar to the organizing assistance, to the UAW."

    http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/25015994/chattanooga-vw-workers-seek-injunction-in-uaw-case

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited April 2014

    "Expansion talks at Volkswagen’s lone U.S. plant have ground to a halt amid disagreements about the role of organized labor at the Tennessee factory.

    [T]he governor has suggested the state has been unable to negotiate incentives with a VW official with final decision-making power."

    Volkswagen expansion talks at standstill in Tennessee (Detroit News)

    Meanwhile, in the same paper, UAW to hold strike vote in Bowling Green.

  • genericramgenericram between Indy and CincyPosts: 12

    "I suspect the criticism and dire warnings of some noted economists might be coming true--that capitalism, for all its merits as a wealth-generating engine, is basically at heart pathological in nature and does not know when to stop before it kills the host."

    Anti-trust law's s'posed to address some of this, but it can't do much about what goes on outside the USA, and has other flaws.

    "From each according to his ability-to each according to his need" doesn't seem to work too well either, in practice. Whoever's in charge decides his friends are the ones who "need".

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @[email protected] said:
    "Expansion talks at Volkswagen’s lone U.S. plant have ground to a halt amid disagreements about the role of organized labor at the Tennessee factory.

    [T]he governor has suggested the state has been unable to negotiate incentives with a VW official with final decision-making power."

    I doubt they will get anything done until the NLRB makes a decision on the complaint by the UAW. Just have to wait until the Legislature is back in session. What are the odds anyway on jumping the gun with the market as tepid as it is?

    If the Corvette workers go on strike, it would be a perfect time to bust the UAW. Looks like the UAW thinks they can decide on who managers want to keep or lay off. If there is a contract violation that is one thing. To say certain positions are grounds for a strike seems like they just want to get in a fight over nothing.

  • slorenzenslorenzen Posts: 694

    "The German model of management-employee collaboration is a fascistic political vehicle known by the euphemism Betriebsrat, or works council. In order to secure greater productivity and labor peace, U.S. companies generally do something sensible, like, for example, giving workers an opportunity to buy stock in the company for which they work. But in works councils, labor and management essentially come together and sing Kumbaya, at least in theory."

    http://americanthinker.com/2014/04/labor_fascism_in_chattanooga.html

    What say you?

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462

    Too many isms for my blood. Frankly, I don't see why you can't have both. Have a union to negotiate wages and a council to improve product quality.

    Guess you should ask Enron employees whether it's a good idea to own a lot stock in the company that issues your paycheck.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238
    edited April 2014

    Fascism? Really? Oh, "American Thinker".

    Looking at the overall higher quality of life enjoyed by the German industrial worker tells me all I need to know.

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399

    Although we don't have a works council we do have input into improving the quality and production processes ( and can do so without the union needing to be involved). It works along the lines of a suggestion box, and there are rewards if your ideas are implemented, if you save the company enough ( from for example less rework required) you can even have a chance to win a voucher for a car ($35,000), I do think the union is supposed to work with management as well ( though wether this is in a non-confrontational manner is another question).

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462

    Can the workers on the floor "stop" the line?

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @[email protected] said:
    Too many isms for my blood. Frankly, I don't see why you can't have both. Have a union to negotiate wages and a council to improve product quality.

    Guess you should ask Enron employees whether it's a good idea to own a lot stock in the company that issues your paycheck.

    My understanding there was pressure to buy Enron stock. The workers probably figured the company would keep on doing well. Like so many GM/C workers, both UAW and management.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @scwmcan said:
    Although we don't have a works council we do have input into improving the quality and production processes ( and can do so without the union needing to be involved). It works along the lines of a suggestion box, and there are rewards if your ideas are implemented, if you save the company enough ( from for example less rework required) you can even have a chance to win a voucher for a car ($35,000), I do think the union is supposed to work with management as well ( though wether this is in a non-confrontational manner is another question).

    My 37 years in the Alaska Teamsters we never came close to a strike. We may have used a bit of work slowdown to make a point. When I worked for RCA under a Teamster contract, they initiated the process for us to become Unionized. They had Unions all around the World. And they also had a great program for suggestions that could reap the employee cash rewards. Later owners were less open to good relations. Especially AT&T.

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399

    Yes the workers can stop the line if they se a quality problem ( or need to catch up) on our line it doesn't seem to be a big deal unless it is for a long time ( if you have a quality issue you call the team leader anyway so they make the decision to reject the engine or fix it there, so the worker only initiates the process). On the new V8 line I am told when the line stops the team leaders and group leaders are there in less than a minute ( probably because the line is new and they want to make sure that any issues are being dealt with). In any case at our plant the emphasis is on not letting a problem go to the next workstation. This is the way that GM's quality management system is supposed to work in all their plants worldwide, and from what we were told in my orientation and training, is very different from the way things were run 10 or even 5 years ago.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462

    Sounds good and makes the most sense. Saves customer heartache and warranty dollars for the manufacturer.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    @[email protected] said:
    Sounds good and makes the most sense. Saves customer heartache and warranty dollars for the manufacturer.

    I think the beancounters may have finally realized that the apparent savings of cutting corners still cost a lot, only way down the line. Short versus long-term thinking.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238

    How many suits ever think of the long term?

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    @fintail said:
    How many suits ever think of the long term?

    I'm sure there are some, but certainly the incentive programs put into place at many companies (plus the pressure of being a public company) encourage shorter-term thinking.

    People like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk seem to think long term. Probably many more in smaller companies. But certainly many short term thinkers as well.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @tlong said:

    Long term thinkers become Billionaires like Buffett & Bezos, the rest have to settle for being mere millionaires.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,238

    Indeed, gagrice. Failure is still rewarded for our esteemed executive set.

    @gagrice said:

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited April 2014

    Wasn't expecting this.

    UAW suddenly retreats from fight at Tennessee VW plant (Reuters)

    "The United Auto Workers, surprising even its supporters, on Monday abruptly withdrew its legal challenge to a union organizing vote that it lost at a Volkswagen AG plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee in February.

    Labor experts said the union's move would allow it to devote more energy to trying to win representation at other Southern plants: the Nissan Motor Co plant near Jackson, Mississippi where the UAW has sought worker support for more than two years; or the Daimler AG Mercedes-Benz plant near Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

    "It's a significant setback for the UAW," said Dennis Cuneo, a pro-management attorney with long auto industry experience. "Losing the election, then pursuing an appeal only to withdraw it at the last minute. It has to be seen as a huge setback."

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @Stever said:
    Wasn't expecting this.

    UAW suddenly retreats from fight at Tennessee VW plant (Reuters)

    I am not surprised at all. If the UAW got to have another election and lost by a bigger number, what then? The politicians they were trying to lure into the hearings had NOTHING to gain and everything to lose. The hearing would have been one sided and the NLRB would proabably have granted a second election. I would bet secretly the US VW management are relieved. VW management in Germany may be also. This is not the same kind of company Union they have in Germany where they all drink beer together.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited April 2014

    Now you have me wondering if the US midterm elections played a role in the UAW folding. Lots more to lose than gain at this point?

    The heat will be back on the TN pols to renew the incentives for the new car line VW says they want to build.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432

    @Stever said:
    Now you have me wondering if the US midterm elections played a role in the UAW folding. Lots more to lose than gain at this point?

    The heat will be back on the TN pols to renew the incentives for the new car line VW says they want to build.

    No doubt about that. TN better put up now or be shut up at the polls.

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited April 2014

    @gagrice said:
    VW management in Germany may be also. This is not the same kind of company Union they have in Germany where they all drink beer together.

    Given the history of the UAW, you might be correct.

    Personally, I think its a shameful and distorted policy that prevents workers and management from getting together to share ideas and increase product quality and reliability.

    That's what VW has in Europe, and that's what they want here.

    Maybe its time for some forward thinking politicians to propose some labor law changes that would allow both sides to meet without such an adversarial relationship.

    There's no physical or logical reason that a structure such as that couldn't be created...

    Call it "Union lite".

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192

    @busiris said:
    Call it "Union lite".

    Not sure there are enough "forward thinking politicians" left in this country, unfortunately.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited April 2014

    They're kind of like corporate execs - always worrying about the next quarter or next election instead of focusing on longer term goals.

    (Did I mention I recently went to a union meeting?)

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,301

    Sadly, stockholders often are only concerned with the next quarter.

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462

    "The UAW and a global labor group called IndustriALL are asking the U.S. State Department to oversee mediation talks with Nissan at its Canton, Miss., plant over workers’ right to organize a union.

    “This is not a standard textbook organizing drive,” said Kristin Dziczek, director of the industry and labor group for the Center for Automotive Research, adding that the UAW cannot afford to back away from its organizing goals just because it lost the Volkswagen vote."

    UAW seeks mediation to settle dispute with Nissan in Mississippi (Detroit Free Press)

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