What happens to your engine when you decide to change oil types either to or from one type (synthetic to conventional or vice versa) to another? And you are unable to drain all of the other fluid out, say because you may have an engine that incorporates an intank (radiator) cooler that can not be drained with each normal oil change?
Does having two types of different fluids lead to an engine problem until, after time, you have evacuated or dumped all of the other fluid out?
And what about bi-product contaminates that are a normal process of engine operation? Are these eliminated when you decided to switch to a "synthetic" oil? Or are they just reduced to the point that you believe you car will lsat longer. What about the statments from the manufactures "No need to change your oil as often as conventional oils". Does that mean you save money? Does it save you in repair costs because you won't have any sludge in your oil pan? Will using conventional oils and following the recommended maintenance schedule defeat or negate the cost of synthetic oils?
The idea of "synthetic blending" of oil types lead me to believe people will buy anything if they want to cut the "operational costs" of maintaining a vehicle. It has to right up there with "teflon additives designed inside your oil filter".
Marketing and Advertising... "How to sell anything from worms to bomb shelters.
I got to wonder what people won't buy.
In my experience, I say, "do it right or don't do it at all". Leave your minds open for learning new ideas while processing this information. Take it all with common sense and apply it wisely.
There are to many schemes that want us to "spend our money on" out there to count.
And although for the most part, this topic is will be debated till "cows learn to fly", it has had it's share of heated discussions aimed at justifying one persons right to be wrong. That is what America is... A place where the wrong have a right to be wrong without being attacked for a certain point of view. But they also have a responiblity as americans to remember the other person may be right.
Sorry if I confused NE1...
Oh and by the way, what is the answer to the first question about changing oil types? Does it really matter? Is the Mechanical Engineer still with us?
#364 The standards means that the various oils are already tested. If they don't pass the tests, they don't get to advertise or wear the logo of passing the test. If they do, they can. So yes, you can test the test, or test to see which oils surpass the test.
To me, it is far better to understand the test, rather than test what is already tested.
The biggest issue in testing the test is how consistent is the product from the test batch.
I run Castrol GTX or Havoline 3, 10-30wt is the general grade choice but I am thinking changing the Taurus wagon to 30wt due to high mileage(157k) and items I have noticed in performance and response. I live in Hawaii where the temps are stable. The vehicles driving habits are also stable. I run 87 to 89 octane with spurts to 92 about 20 times a year. I change filters and oils @ 3-4k depending on work load and color, feel and smell of the oil. I use AC or Wix filters if they are on sale. All other fluids, filters and pcv are change yearly except for the brake fluid. Every 2 years I change the brake fluid (depending on service and mileage and wear of the pads). I prefer to flush and change that fluid on change out of the calipers and cylinders. NOTE: I do this for personal reasons and not for any other reason.
As for the new car... well, I gotta admit I don't meet all of the critera for Synthetic oils. However, I am considering it. The oils on todays market ( I personnally feel) are pretty much the same in all of 4 fields.
My question to you was, what about left over / unremoved different types of oils, are not a concern in such small amounts after blending. How do you feel about it?
Tests and experience have continually supported the fact that the best oils for any car (except a brand new engine) are good quality synthetics. They show the leaset wear on moving parts and the least amount of accumluation of deposits over time. You are best off using the weight of oil as recommended in your owner's manual. If you feel you must go to a heavier weight go up slowly and find one that works for you. If your engine uses oil find the problem and fix it or get a new vehicle. Don't fix it with heavy oil weight or a lot of thick additives. Don't ever use additives with teflon. Teflon is a solid particle and is meant for frying pans not engines. If you are switching oils and are concerned about reminants of the "old" type of oil, just change it again after about 500 miles. And of course change the filter at each oil change. There are many brands of oil filters, but only aoubt three manufacturers. The best filter made today is probably K&N oil filters. There is a site with aan interesting filter study: http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html
First of all, let me state that at their last oil change both of my cars received synthetic for the first time. Mobil 1 (5w30, Maxima w/26k miles) and Pennzoil Performax 100 (10w30, Civic w/188k). Although I am not sure of the actual benefits, I feel like the extra $ bought me some piece of mind with car 1. (BTW, my piece of mind went out the window when I read the above-linked oil filter comparison!) Car 2 has been consuming about 2 quarts of oil between changes, and the color of the oil turns black way before I reach my chosen change interval (5000ish). I was curious if I would see lower oil consumption due to the lower volatility of the synthetic, or any effect on the premature blackness. Thus the switch.
Both said oils meet API category SJ. Both have the "Starburst" certification. So does every other 10w30 and 5w30 oil you can buy. I am just suspicious of a classification system where everything is classified as the same. I am sure that there are differences among the brands of oil just as any other product, but the API system just lumps them all together.
On the Mobil 1 bottle it says that it meets ILSAC GF-2, GM 4718M, European ACEA A1/B1-98, Japanese valve train wear, and engine performance requirements of BMW, MB, VW, Porsche, Volvo. Does anybody know if these non-API designations can be used to objectively differentiate among the oils? It seems to me that the engine manufacturers are pushing the envelope on motor oil performance standards, while the American Petroleum Institute is behind the curve.
Supposedly: It lubricates so good, the engine can't break in properly because there is no friction. Nowadays, the engines are pretty well broken in when you buy them, but that depends on the make of car too.
Seems syn oil would be bad, as one reason you change oil is to flush out the combustion by-products that build up in oil, esp in cold weather stop and go driving. Oil filters do not remove this stuff, only way is to drain oil.
In my researching this subject I have determined the Cen-Pe-Co racing oil a highly refined natural pariffin oil with synthetic additives is the most protective in my porsche 911 due to its ability to dissipate heat. I have compared it to Redline, NEO, and all the major synthetics from the big companies. I still of course change it and the Mobil 1 filter(best I've found) every 2500 miles.
I'm told that the US military will only buy oil that can be mixed with any ohter brand. They want the lowest bidder that can meat their specs, and for most engines any oil can, they don't want to change all the oil just because they change supplies ever month.
Even if not, most oil is comptable, and I wouldn't worry about mixing it. HOWEVER, if you mix a 10x30 with a 5x30 you don't get 7w30, you get some unknown mix that should always be considered the worse of the two mix. (ie when hot consider it 5w30, when cold consider it 10w30) That isn't what happens either, but you won't go wrong that way.
BTW, the reason most oils only have one rating is most manufactures only require the SG (sf? I can't remember) rating. Therefore your oil might be twice as good as shown by some independant test. Nobody recignises that test, but the automanufactures recignise the SAE test and void warenties if you don't have it.
I think corvette and porche require synthetic now, but they might do it only for the image that synthetic is better.
The claim for syntheic is that the oil lasts longer, so they put in longer additives too. regular oil brakes down over time, synthetics do not do this as badly. Therefore they don't need to be cahnged as often. Problem is your warentiee doesn't recingise this. Also you still need to change the filter every 6,000 miles, so you may as well change the rest of the oil then too!
If your car is using oil, I'd expect it to use more with synthetic, not less! There is no point in burning oil that is more expensive, so I would never put synthetic in a carthat uses oil.
The reason your oil is black in the car that uses oil is you need a ring job. Your burning oil, but also exhaust is getting into the oil. You should change the oil more often (if you care about this engine, unless your talking a collectors car I wouldn't bother with extra changes) as the combustion by-products getting into your oil are probably more then the oil additives are designed for.
I read most of the posts. I have used synthetic oil for 7 years. My most recent vehicle is a 93 Astro. I switched to synthetic at 47 k 5w-30 with the their own filter to complement the synthetic oil miles and now have 84 k. It has not used or leaked any oil. It is great to see the valve cover gasket and oil pan not leaking also. I own three other older chevys. I use 10w-40 semi-synthetic in them. They seep a little oil but do not have any major mechanical problems. My astro gets an oil filter and oil replace at 5k. For another 15.00 I take an oil sample for a spectro analysis. I have done two of these samples which showed the oil was still good for service.I have left the oil in for 10 k. That is the end of my comfort zone so then I do an oil and filter change. The $$$ is 5.50 quart for 100 percent. 9 dollars for their filter which is highly recommended to leave in longer than 3k. What would happen to the quick change industry if the changes went to 5 k??? Items checked during the analysis are: physical properties ie. glycol, water percent, fuel percent, viscosity at 100 Degrees C, and solids(contaminents). Oil degradation ie. soot(diesel engines), Nitration(causes sludge and varnish formation), NOX(oxidation), TBN Total Base Number(detergents depletes with use. There is a whole section dealing with spectrographic analysis in parts per million. I am completely satisfied and will continue to use synthetics.
Although my question was for Blugill I see that you agree with him. Thats great! By the way you two aren't related are you?
Since peace of mind seemed to be a concern. I would put the $15.00 toward six pack of oil at $12.00 and a new high quality filter at $3.00 and have total peace of mind. I agree that in doing that you would be following the manufactures schedule for maintenance, but what the heck, we love to live dangerously anyhow.
As for the leaks. How can using Synthetic oil stop oil leaks or to put it in context of your statment, how can it be that using synthetic oil in your Astro has allowed you not to use up any oil and it hasn't leaked out any gasket or seal? Are you saying that using Synthetic oils have stopped both the consumption of oil and any leaks that you had previously?
As for the original Question to Blugill... Do you really believe everything you wrote in post # 378? Please re-read what you wrote from an unbiased point of view and reply. I don't want to misunderstand what you are trying to say.
My 93 astro has never leaked or burned any oil. A well maintained vehicle of any brand name will do the same. New vehicles use a nitrile rubber type for gaskets. As such they are more durable to the ravages of day to day use. The synthetic oil does not cause leaks. An engine/transmission in poor condition will not benefit from synthetic. It will only cause the owner to get pissed off and blame it on the new oil. Synthetic oils have higher level of detergent additives.(Example)- So if there is a slight trickle(leak) with mineral, there could be a much larger leak with syn. Bottom line have a maintained car or truck, or insure that all leaks are sealed befoe using syn. Synthetic oils are used in jet aircraft so if you flown in a jet you have experienced synthetics in action. Synthetics are an alternative to mineral, if mineral is ok stick with it.
I do belive that synthetic is better then regular oil, but I'm also well aware that someone will eventially sell a synthetic that is worse the regular oil. That said, I don't use synthetics very often in my cars.
I do belive oil is compatable, and I do mix brands in my cars. I do not mix different weights of oil. Take that for what it is worth. I don't know if the US military has something to do with it though.
Yes I do belive in changing the oil filter every 6,000 miles even if your oil is still good. A clogged filter won't do you any good at best. Unless you have a test to find out if the filter is still good.
I guess I belive everything as it stands today, but I'm well aware that things change.
I have read all the posts and many articles and am like most others that I don't know what to do. I change my oil and filter every 5M miles, always have. I just feel that every 3M is overkill. I will hit that 5M mark every 3 to 4 months. I have always used regular oil, not synthetic. Now I just bought a new Land Rover and wonder if I should start using synthetic. Is it worth the extra money? If it is only offering piece of mind than I will stay with regular oil. If the synthetic really has a measurable benefit I would like to know. Unfortunately, discussing oil has become as personal as religion and politics and you can't be sure what to believe. Does spending all that extra money for synthetic oil really make a difference in an engine that gets regular oil changes?
#389 The main reasons for shorter cycle that a lube shop recommends (3k) is 1. economic, 2. you have no way practical way to test the serviceability of the oil and filter, 3. Fear of sludge and not doing the right thing for your engine (ash % build up resulting in that wonderful stuff called sludge) Manufacturers specs go to 7500 Which means if you could limit sludge buildup you could actually go to 9000 or 2.5 x- 3x times more than the typical change every 3000. So if you are an oil company would you rather have something once at 2.5x- 3 x the price or 3x at normal price. Keep in mind if you just use synthetics once instead of 2.5x- 3x you are using that much less in polluting products. But since is doesnt cost much downstream, you don't care. So if you see where you can go with this I will stop. If you have more I can go on.
Your cars will be fine every ~5K (or say about 9 months if miles are not there) with an oil change: use OEM appropriate vis, good filter (some are cheapo - search the net for more info) and I recommend a major oil brand with starburst on it.
For most folks 3K is overkill, this is easily substianted by oil testing [does any one know of a consumer service to test and report on Pass Car MO's?]--- we use commercial services at work. I have to be diplomatic here, there is a lot of "passion" around automotive chemicals (and a lot of folks trying to make a buck from that passion). I'd bet my next paycheck that data can show a lot of very premature oil changes an quicklubes...Consumer Reports easily proved this in there severe service testing.
I do not have a lot of time to elaborate here (I'll look for some text at work to post), but the current ILSA GF-2 spec. is very, very strong in my opinion, insofar as engine protection and oil life. Baseline is good...in fact playing specsmanship can result in a suboptimized oil to to the complex mix of chemicals in the fluid.
Syn is "better" (see my older posts for why). But better does not mean materially beneficial for most motorists. As a quick aside, group II base oils (Chevron/Pennzoil/Conoco) offer a lot of syn benefits (oxidation resistance, better VI, much less volatility), but plain old solvent extracted base oils can make a very good oil as well with proper additives.
The racing syn oil vendors seem to create slightly more HP at high speed...I did not see a scientifically detailed explanation of why, believe it must simply be lower viscosity(flow resistance)in operation, and perhaps somehow related to the thermodynamics of better heat transfer from uniform syn bases. In any cases I don't drive at high speeds & racing high temps (oil films behave differently at high RPMs--apparent vis goes up), and remain suspicious of benefits using this stuff with traditional OEM engines. Not certain these guys can really do resource rich ($$$) testing with non-racing-type engines. That said, they probably are acceptable to good oils nonetheless, only very expensive. Again, things are so competitive, OEMs would push exotic technology if there is a quantifiable benefit...syns in Corvettes for examples are very beneficial. But these small vendor racing oils go way beyond Mobil 1 in claims and merchandising (costs).
Finally, I'd worry some about formulations made with non PAO syns, it can be tricky getting things to interact properly with the base oils --- given the extreme conditions in race engines that unusual mix may be the way to go, but in general PAOs are quite robust. I think some of the majors are dabbiling in non-traditional syn bases.
#390 So basically the "FEAR OF SLUDGE" drives most folks to 3k interval lube shop oil changes. (now that is extreme) Synthetics have much lower ash % than conventional oils (which is the one major reason for the ability to go 2.5x-3x the interval lengths, ie. 3k x 3x = 9,000 miles between syn oil changes. (Am I cursing in church now?)
I don't believe expensive outside testing is required. You can sample your oil from the dip stick on a clean white paper towel or rag. If it smells or looks bad enough to give you a question, change it! For the $12-$15 it costs for a new filter and oil why question it.
Just use high quality oil and filters and adjust your oil changes per your individual driving habits and requirements. No wizardry required.
Someone posted earlier that link to the Mopar site where the guy inspected and evaluated various oil filter brands (Fram, Purolator, Wix, Mobil 1, etc.) Interesting. Anyone know of other specific sites where filters, particularly OEM (Honda, etc.) are evaluated?
...is the only choice. When I get in my car after work on cold (0 or colder) winter evening, my car cranks and turns over like it was 80 degrees outside...while the other dino cars in the lot are struggling. No engine vibration during warm up. I use syn for peace of mind, but cold weather wear, tear and starting are OBVIOUS benefits, hands down, no questions asked.
Ash (in terms of PCMOs) means "%metals left over after burning away all the organic stuff"...most metal in PCMO is Zn left over form the EP (extreme pressure additive - what protects the engine for those moments before you get an oil film at startup typically) AND the Ca left over which is used to neutralize combustion acid by-products (as measured by TBN - total base number).
One can make a syn (and suppliers often do) using similar/same addpacks as in conventional oils, and thus having essentially the same ash level as conventional.
Syns DO resist oxidation better, and in extreme cases this could build "sludge" in an engine (gotta be pretty darn neglected to do it with either oil type, but syns do hold out for longer in this parameter).
I agree, it is FEAR driving too frequent oil changes (and the fact oil changes are cheap). In fact, a dirty oil is OK for a while as the addpacks keep everything suspended & neutralized quite nicely...for a period, at least past 6K to 7K in severe service taxis as Consumer Reports demonstrated (using ILSAC GF-1 oil, I think). Only chemical, not visual, analysis can tell when oil is "worn out"...big fleets do checking like this all the time. My practice is to let the oil get a "little" dirty, for a "little" while. Hence a change at 4 to 6K for me normally. This still leaves a big safety margin, that's why OEMs can spec a 7.5K change. I believe they also allow some significant safety margin in a 7.5K figure as well. My educated **"guesstimate"** is that a typical PCMO, in typical mixed semi-severe service, does not detramentally wear out until near or past 10K---WAY past my comfort level of leaving it in the car! I don't have data to support this, and if car is in a really consistently dusty place (particulate wear) all bets on life are off.
Of course all this ***assumes the darn oil meets the GF-2 spec*** in the first place, or hopefully exceeds spec in some tests. (I prefer GF-2 spec to SAE, virtually intechangable specs for most oils as sold, but GF-2 is actually more stringent than SAE SJ.)
Editorializing: My memory says, there is data from API (private results, but test now done independently of manufacturer as part of staburst licensing requirements), and the state of North Carolina (actually tests retail oil) indicating a significant number or oils **do not meet spec as sold** [Harts' Luburicant World, a trade mag ran a story awhile back methinks]. I believe the best protection from materially off spec, or poorly designed oils, is to buy a major brand that has resources and motivation to both design and manufacture oils properly. (Yep, I don't personally use discount store oils, or the generics at warehouse club...even though probably they are just fine.)
As I used to personally supervise the manufacture of many types of lubricants, as well as a production lube lab, I know firsthand how careful one has to be to make an on-spec oil day in and day out. I isn't hard at all to engineer and blend/package an oil that will come close to being OK for most people in most cases. BUT, to design it with some additional "safety" in the formulation, and make it meet production specs *everytime* takes Design & Manufacturing excellence. Since, like so many other auto chemicals (PTFE stuff for example), ***consumers cannot *reliably* or quickly tell (by simply looking at the product or engine), actual quality and performance of the lubricant, the best protection IMHO is to buy brand confidence. I just think the big guys can deliver a better product more consistently. If PCMOs were regulated, tested, and had the liabilities, of, say, generic drugs, then I'd consider off-brand and niche/small vendor oil. I am NOT saying those oils are bad at all, just where my personal confidence level is, and why. YMMV.
#396 Add packs as you noted; are roughly the same for conv and syn oils. Using Mobil One as an example, add packs are virtually identical. The difference is that the conventional and syn difference is just that; one is syn and one is conventional. Would you call them one of the biggie boys? The primary difference is that the synthetic is a superior lubricant? Would you agree? The part that seems of secondary issue is is it worth the 2.5 to 3x the cost. As you know, there are many different options whether or not you agree with the basic premise?
something no one addresses is that with regular oils, your changing the oil removes the acid from the combustion by products. With syn it just builds up over a longer time. Filters don't take out acids and other contaminants unless they are particles, which they are not. Hence I like reg oil at 5000 miles.
My Silverado has a oil change light that appears based on number of starts, average temp of the oil, and probably a couple of other things. It doesn't evaluate the oil in any way, just uses a "counter" based system to trigger oil changes.
I have around 8,000 miles on this engine, live at 7,000 ft elevation, and drive back and forth to work about 6 miles each day. Tow a trailer on weekends or haul my dirt bike.
I have been following a 3,000 mile oil change interval since the vehicle was new using mostly WalMart semisythetic (QS oem).
Oil light triggered at around 3,400 miles the first time and 3,600 miles the second time. Will probably follow the idiot light change interval from now on.
Yep, we agree that the key difference is the syn base not the addpack. Of course, it is proprietary (if Mobil or anyone else) uses *exactly* the same addpack in syn or conventional base products from same "family"---there could be other goals to use a different addpack (make one oil closer to spec and cheaper, use a different supplier for sourcing strategy reasons, maybe some of the proprietary chemicals need a different addpack formula to mix correctly in the particular syn vs. mineral base, etc...).
In any case, the prime difference is almost always the syn, and could be the only difference worth discussion between two different base products.
Yes, I'd agree syn is superior lube in some circumstances. So one could broadly say syn is "superior" in a sense. As an Engineer (nerd on), I could define superior meaning a *measurably reliable* & improved result for the end-user of the product. So, for the guy with a delivery pickup truck in Fairbanks syn is "superior"; for the turbo driver syn is superior vs. most solvent refined base oils; for my Dad's Crown Vic in Alabama, it is really a stretch for me to say syn is superior in that application. Due to both base and probably a more premium addpack as well, it does provide a larger margin of safety against some types of lubrication failures; but is not clear that safety margin would ever be close to being used. He can likely get 150K to 200K w/o an oil related failure using say, most quicklubes at 5K intervals (well perhaps, I read some things on filters some outfits use I did not like, but the oil will be OK). Some commercial diesel engine oils will give a million mile warranty to truck owners against oil-ralted failures, and they do it with *conventional (or perhaps group II conventional stocks)*.
Issue of cost is a personal one, unless you are in a *clear* need syn mode. For me, I'll use syn in my 2000 Mazda...Even though there is probably little measurably demonstrable benefit, I want the safety margin and the "best" in the car, and ..."Life is short, oil is cheap" (even most syns at a 5K interval are not too rich for many folks). I keep my cars about 10 years though. A Leased vehicled?...for me it's due diligence at OEM intervals at a quicklube. Even that minimalist is *probably* quite adequate to prevent oil failures for the next owner of the car...
# 398 If you use syn as the basis for an extendid drain, you are depending on the TBN to neutralize acids over a longer time. This is not a problem for a well formulated oil, but to safely go beyond OEM spec, one need data from oil testing. Testing is beyond most consumers willingness. There is some logic to getting the stuff (acid) out rather than relying on Ca-based additive to neutralized it. I am not a fan of extending the drain to cost-justify consumer oils.
My '92 LeSabre Limited has a similar thing (oil idiot light), and I do a fair amount of shorter trip driving (around 7-10 miles each) and get the thing popping off at about 4+ to 5+ K. That agrees with my own logic too.
I think those things are really good for the more typical driver, that tend to be a little maintenance lax. Good feature in a used car. I'd ask the owner if they changed the oil, and see if they mention the device, etc. Increses odds car sees at least basic maintenance. Always shy of lease returns in shopping used cars, as I bet most lease drivers don't do many oil changes, a light could help the more responsible ones remember their contractual obligation.
I don't believe that chemical testing is required nor practical for the average vehicle owner. Large corporations do this for cost reduction reasons.
As Mwinkle states in #396 "Only chemical, not visual, analysis can tell when oil is "worn out"...big fleets do checking like this all the time." I believe his experiences are invaluable to our decisions.
I stated in #393 that checking with a white paper towel or rag tells me (along with mileage and usage) when to change my oil. I prefer to do around 3-4k. I also said that this was a personal choice to have this type of maintenance schedule. As for oil changing, apparently Mwinkle agrees with that based on his comment in post #396 which is "My practice is to let the oil get a "little" dirty, for a "little" while." Although he did not state that he sent his oil out for testing prior to changing, I have but to seem that he just checked it like the rest of us based on time, mileage, usage and appearance (visual checking).
I like to change the oil and filter at those times. It gets me "under there to have a look see" and if I prolong the change out I feel guilty about not doing it when I feel I should.
Did a search on the web for folks offering consumer used oils testing and found www.titancheckup.com. . I know little about this outfit. There may be others used by car enthusiasts, I don't know. We use CTC, based in Cleveland, at work a lot-but they seem commercial only NOT retail Has anyone used this? Sample report, seemed focused on engine analysis, and indications of gross oil problems.
The sample report does not tell "exactly" how worn out the oil is...'tho viscosity increase is given data, and this is one good indicator of significant oil depeletion. Fleets can trend certain metals not given (Ca & Zn compounds typically), as well as "fingerprint" the formula with an IR scan, and thus get a pretty good idea of how an oil depletes (even if the suppliers exact formuala is a trade secret for competitive reasons). Most of this analysis is done with diesel fleets where one sees a loading of soot over time, and a decrese in base from combustion and sulfur acid formations. Gas engines are less agressive on the oil in some ways. I used to get customers who could tell if we tweaked or changed the formula of the oil (now that's being in tune with your engine and its lubricant performance~!).
The report looks pretty good though. It will not tell you precisely "how much life" is in the oil (like trending analysis ith commercial fleets), but it will let you know things are OK. Be great for a used car (if you could get a sample of old oil!). Combine this info with common sense, and one could feel pretty good about whatever oil change interval you are comfortable with.
I do use a variation of the "dirty rag test", my comfort is not to change it as soon as it dirty (at 2 to 3K typically for me), but after it has been dirty for say 1K to 2K maximum. I never let it get "really dirty". How is that for science?
Addpack is shorthand for "additive package" that's the stuff oil companies either make (if they have a speicalty chemical company division) or buy to manufacture (or "blend" as we say in the trade) the finished oil. Companies like Lubrizol/Paramins/Oronite/Ethyl sell addpacks. In some cases there is "off the shelf" chemical technology they will provide to all customers, in other cases they make it with specific vendors help and do not sell it to other suppliers. It is possible one vendors oil contains the same (or essentially the same addpack) as anothers. That's not usually true for the all oils, especially premium ones, as some are looking for an "edge". Oil vendors combine various addive packages for many finisfed oils, each addpack imparting different properites to the finished lubricant.
I have developed this paranoid habit of changing the Oil in my 94 Ford Ranger every 2,000 to 2,500 miles. Does anyone see any potential problems with changing the oil more frequently than the recommended interval of 3,000 miles? I bought the car with 42,000 miles on it, and have put 40,000 miles on it in 17 months. I figure with all the driving I do, it's better to be safe than sorry. I don't want the engine to burn oil, EVER.
I used to change my Integra's oil every 1500 miles. If it gives you piece of mind, and keeps the crankcase spotless, it is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with changing too often. I hope you have the ability in your area to recycle the used oil.
I just bought a new Olds Intrigue that has a built in oil life sensor that it used, along with historical temperature/RPM/mileage information to tell you when the oil need changed (max period is 7500 miles in any case).
Does anyone have experience with this system, and do you trust it?
#405,406 IMHO, I don't see it doing the car any harm, but how about the environment? Dino juice is a non renewable resource, and I hate to encourage oil changes at a period which the oil is practically brand new. If it makes you feel better, spend that extra money on quality synthetic oil and leave it in for the recommended period.
Changing your oil proir to documented time intervals dosen't hurt anything but your wallet. I was really surprised to find that the manufacturer (of my car) has recommended oil changes every 7500 miles and changing the filter every other oil change. And that was for both maintenance schedules (normal and hard driving).
No way in this lifetime of mine, would I follow such a schedule. I just changed my oil in the Concorde for the first time (3500 miles) and it was really dark. I know that is not a true verification of the oils ability to protect the internal parts. But for me it is an acceptable one. BTW, I replaced the mopar oil filter (STP/Champion) with an AC Delco and will do so at every oil change. I replaced the oil with Castrol GTX 10-30wt. We take our oil to a recycling facility when my two 5 gallon containers are full. Please all, do the same.
just bought 95 325iC... saw your post about using mobil1 (which i planned to put in it, thanks for confirming it...
2 questions...
1) what are you using for filters? 2) what about the "oil service" light? saw a product from peake research on bimmer.net for a tool to reset it. any input?
I know this is somewhat off the subject but I thought this would be an appropriate place to ask. Does anyone know of a product which could remove the large oil stain on my garage floor? We had a car which developed a serious oil leak and made a terrible mess. That car is gone now but the stain remains. If anyone has a solution please respond. I will be putting my home on the market soon and wish to have the garage nice and clean. Thank you.
Does the garage floor have a sealer on top of the concrete? Most do. Some do not. If it does, than just about any concrete cleaner should work. Some require mulitple applications for really bad stains. If it doesn't have a sealer that could be a problem. Oil tends to seep deep into the concrete in it leachs back out over time. Still check with some auto parts stores for help.
I don't know what they call them: A power washer hooked to a diesel heating unit. Blasts ultra hot water, and cleans anything from concrete and cement. A very patient friend of mine does his drive every couple years to keep it like new. You can rent one.
Ummm...that orange powdered soap. Anyone recall the name? Gas stations use it to clean the floors.
Gspinelli, used oil can be recylcled quite efficiently. As I recall, 3 used quarts can be used to make 1 new quart. I'm not sure, but they may get other useful things from the old oil.
I've only used BMW OEM filters bought from BMW dealers.
Once I tried to buy an aftermarket oil filter from NAPA auto store and the filter I got did not fit at all.
As far as resetting the lights, you need to buy a special tool to do it. the peek research tool is very popular and works very well and is really easy to do.
You can also do it with a paper clip but it is some what tricky and in my mind, dangerous.
Comments
Does having two types of different fluids lead to an engine problem until, after time, you have evacuated or dumped all of the other fluid out?
And what about bi-product contaminates that are a normal process of engine operation? Are these eliminated when you decided to switch to a "synthetic" oil? Or are they just reduced to the point that you believe you car will lsat longer. What about the statments from the manufactures "No need to change your oil as often as conventional oils". Does that mean you save money? Does it save you in repair costs because you won't have any sludge in your oil pan? Will using conventional oils and following the recommended maintenance schedule defeat or negate the cost of synthetic oils?
The idea of "synthetic blending" of oil types lead me to believe people will buy anything if they want to cut the "operational costs" of maintaining a vehicle. It has to right up there with "teflon additives designed inside your oil filter".
Marketing and Advertising... "How to sell anything from worms to bomb shelters.
I got to wonder what people won't buy.
In my experience, I say, "do it right or don't do it at all". Leave your minds open for learning new ideas while processing this information. Take it all with common sense and apply it wisely.
There are to many schemes that want us to "spend our money on" out there to count.
And although for the most part, this topic is will be debated till "cows learn to fly", it has had it's share of heated discussions aimed at justifying one persons right to be wrong. That is what America is... A place where the wrong have a right to be wrong without being attacked for a certain point of view. But they also have a responiblity as americans to remember the other person may be right.
Sorry if I confused NE1...
Oh and by the way, what is the answer to the first question about changing oil types? Does it really matter? Is the Mechanical Engineer still with us?
You left out the concept of the current standards that is printed on the oil for sale; that is the baseline.
The standards means that the various oils are already tested. If they don't pass the tests, they don't get to advertise or wear the logo of passing the test. If they do, they can. So yes, you can test the test, or test to see which oils surpass the test.
To me, it is far better to understand the test, rather than test what is already tested.
The biggest issue in testing the test is how consistent is the product from the test batch.
What would you buy if it was your money
Just curious, from a fellow engineer.....
As for the new car... well, I gotta admit I don't meet all of the critera for Synthetic oils. However, I am considering it. The oils on todays market ( I personnally feel) are pretty much the same in all of 4 fields.
My question to you was, what about left over / unremoved different types of oils, are not a concern in such small amounts after blending. How do you feel about it?
Rick
You are best off using the weight of oil as recommended in your owner's manual. If you feel you must go to a heavier weight go up slowly and find one that works for you. If your engine uses oil find the problem and fix it or get a new vehicle. Don't fix it with heavy oil weight or a lot of thick additives. Don't ever use additives with teflon. Teflon is a solid particle and is meant for frying pans not engines.
If you are switching oils and are concerned about reminants of the "old" type of oil, just change it again after about 500 miles. And of course change the filter at each oil change.
There are many brands of oil filters, but only aoubt three manufacturers. The best filter made today is probably K&N oil filters.
There is a site with aan interesting filter study: http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html
For this reason I agree that if one was to be worried then just change it again after a given short period of time.
Would you please explain your comment about Synthetic oil being good for engines "except for a brand new engine".
Do some engines require "Synthetic Oil"? If so, what about when it was new? Why is Synthetic not good for a new engine?
Both said oils meet API category SJ. Both have the "Starburst" certification. So does every other 10w30 and 5w30 oil you can buy. I am just suspicious of a classification system where everything is classified as the same. I am sure that there are differences among the brands of oil just as any other product, but the API system just lumps them all together.
On the Mobil 1 bottle it says that it meets ILSAC GF-2, GM 4718M, European ACEA A1/B1-98, Japanese valve train wear, and engine performance requirements of BMW, MB, VW, Porsche, Volvo. Does anybody know if these non-API designations can be used to objectively differentiate among the oils? It seems to me that the engine manufacturers are pushing the envelope on motor oil performance standards, while the American Petroleum Institute is behind the curve.
Even if not, most oil is comptable, and I wouldn't worry about mixing it. HOWEVER, if you mix a 10x30 with a 5x30 you don't get 7w30, you get some unknown mix that should always be considered the worse of the two mix. (ie when hot consider it 5w30, when cold consider it 10w30) That isn't what happens either, but you won't go wrong that way.
BTW, the reason most oils only have one rating is most manufactures only require the SG (sf? I can't remember) rating. Therefore your oil might be twice as good as shown by some independant test. Nobody recignises that test, but the automanufactures recignise the SAE test and void warenties if you don't have it.
I think corvette and porche require synthetic now, but they might do it only for the image that synthetic is better.
The claim for syntheic is that the oil lasts longer, so they put in longer additives too. regular oil brakes down over time, synthetics do not do this as badly. Therefore they don't need to be cahnged as often. Problem is your warentiee doesn't recingise this. Also you still need to change the filter every 6,000 miles, so you may as well change the rest of the oil then too!
If your car is using oil, I'd expect it to use more with synthetic, not less! There is no point in burning oil that is more expensive, so I would never put synthetic in a carthat uses oil.
The reason your oil is black in the car that uses oil is you need a ring job. Your burning oil, but also exhaust is getting into the oil. You should change the oil more often (if you care about this engine, unless your talking a collectors car I wouldn't bother with extra changes) as the combustion by-products getting into your oil are probably more then the oil additives are designed for.
Oil degradation ie. soot(diesel engines), Nitration(causes sludge and varnish formation),
NOX(oxidation), TBN Total Base Number(detergents depletes with use. There is a whole section dealing with spectrographic analysis in parts per million. I am completely satisfied and will continue to use synthetics.
Since peace of mind seemed to be a concern. I would put the $15.00 toward six pack of oil at $12.00 and a new high quality filter at $3.00 and have total peace of mind. I agree that in doing that you would be following the manufactures schedule for maintenance, but what the heck, we love to live dangerously anyhow.
As for the leaks. How can using Synthetic oil stop oil leaks or to put it in context of your statment, how can it be that using synthetic oil in your Astro has allowed you not to use up any oil and it hasn't leaked out any gasket or seal?
Are you saying that using Synthetic oils have stopped both the consumption of oil and any leaks that you had previously?
As for the original Question to Blugill... Do you really believe everything you wrote in post # 378? Please re-read what you wrote from an unbiased point of view and reply. I don't want to misunderstand what you are trying to say.
I do belive that synthetic is better then regular oil, but I'm also well aware that someone will eventially sell a synthetic that is worse the regular oil. That said, I don't use synthetics very often in my cars.
I do belive oil is compatable, and I do mix brands in my cars. I do not mix different weights of oil. Take that for what it is worth. I don't know if the US military has something to do with it though.
Yes I do belive in changing the oil filter every 6,000 miles even if your oil is still good. A clogged filter won't do you any good at best. Unless you have a test to find out if the filter is still good.
I guess I belive everything as it stands today, but I'm well aware that things change.
I change my oil and filter every 5M miles, always have. I just feel that every 3M is overkill. I will hit that 5M mark every 3 to 4 months. I have always used regular oil, not synthetic.
Now I just bought a new Land Rover and wonder if I should start using synthetic. Is it worth the extra money? If it is only offering piece of mind than I will stay with regular oil. If the synthetic really has a measurable benefit I would like to know. Unfortunately, discussing oil has become as personal as religion and politics and you can't be sure what to believe.
Does spending all that extra money for synthetic oil really make a difference in an engine that gets regular oil changes?
The main reasons for shorter cycle that a lube shop recommends (3k) is 1. economic, 2. you have no way practical way to test the serviceability of the oil and filter, 3. Fear of sludge and not doing the right thing for your engine (ash % build up resulting in that wonderful stuff called sludge)
Manufacturers specs go to 7500 Which means if you could limit sludge buildup you could actually go to 9000 or 2.5 x- 3x times more than the typical change every 3000. So if you are an oil company would you rather have something once at 2.5x- 3 x the price or 3x at normal price.
Keep in mind if you just use synthetics once instead of 2.5x- 3x you are using that much less in polluting products. But since is doesnt cost much downstream, you don't care.
So if you see where you can go with this I will stop. If you have more I can go on.
For most folks 3K is overkill, this is easily substianted by oil testing [does any one know of a consumer service to test and report on Pass Car MO's?]--- we use commercial services at work. I have to be diplomatic here, there is a lot of "passion" around automotive chemicals (and a lot of folks trying to make a buck from that passion). I'd bet my next paycheck that data can show a lot of very premature oil changes an quicklubes...Consumer Reports easily proved this in there severe service testing.
I do not have a lot of time to elaborate here (I'll look for some text at work to post), but the current ILSA GF-2 spec. is very, very strong in my opinion, insofar as engine protection and oil life. Baseline is good...in fact playing specsmanship can result in a suboptimized oil to to the complex mix of chemicals in the fluid.
Syn is "better" (see my older posts for why). But better does not mean materially beneficial for most motorists. As a quick aside, group II base oils (Chevron/Pennzoil/Conoco) offer a lot of syn benefits (oxidation resistance, better VI, much less volatility), but plain old solvent extracted base oils can make a very good oil as well with proper additives.
The racing syn oil vendors seem to create slightly more HP at high speed...I did not see a scientifically detailed explanation of why, believe it must simply be lower viscosity(flow resistance)in operation, and perhaps somehow related to the thermodynamics of better heat transfer from uniform syn bases. In any cases I don't drive at high speeds & racing high temps (oil films behave differently at high RPMs--apparent vis goes up), and remain suspicious of benefits using this stuff with traditional OEM engines. Not certain these guys can really do resource rich ($$$) testing with non-racing-type engines. That said, they probably are acceptable to good oils nonetheless, only very expensive. Again, things are so competitive, OEMs would push exotic technology if there is a quantifiable benefit...syns in Corvettes for examples are very beneficial. But these small vendor racing oils go way beyond Mobil 1 in claims and merchandising (costs).
Finally, I'd worry some about formulations made with non PAO syns, it can be tricky getting things to interact properly with the base oils --- given the extreme conditions in race engines that unusual mix may be the way to go, but in general PAOs are quite robust. I think some of the majors are dabbiling in non-traditional syn bases.
So basically the "FEAR OF SLUDGE" drives most folks to 3k interval lube shop oil changes. (now that is extreme) Synthetics have much lower ash % than conventional oils (which is the one major reason for the ability to go 2.5x-3x the interval lengths, ie. 3k x 3x = 9,000 miles between syn oil changes. (Am I cursing in church now?)
I don't believe expensive outside testing is required. You can sample your oil from the dip stick on a clean white paper towel or rag. If it smells or looks bad enough to give you a question, change it! For the $12-$15 it costs for a new filter and oil why question it.
Just use high quality oil and filters and adjust your oil changes per your individual driving habits and requirements. No wizardry required.
Ash (in terms of PCMOs) means "%metals left over after burning away all the organic stuff"...most metal in PCMO is Zn left over form the EP (extreme pressure additive - what protects the engine for those moments before you get an oil film at startup typically) AND the Ca left over which is used to neutralize combustion acid by-products (as measured by TBN - total base number).
One can make a syn (and suppliers often do) using similar/same addpacks as in conventional oils, and thus having essentially the same ash level as conventional.
Syns DO resist oxidation better, and in extreme cases this could build "sludge" in an engine (gotta be pretty darn neglected to do it with either oil type, but syns do hold out for longer in this parameter).
I agree, it is FEAR driving too frequent oil changes (and the fact oil changes are cheap). In fact, a dirty oil is OK for a while as the addpacks keep everything suspended & neutralized quite nicely...for a period, at least past 6K to 7K in severe service taxis as Consumer Reports demonstrated (using ILSAC GF-1 oil, I think). Only chemical, not visual, analysis can tell when oil is "worn out"...big fleets do checking like this all the time. My practice is to let the oil get a "little" dirty, for a "little" while. Hence a change at 4 to 6K for me normally. This still leaves a big safety margin, that's why OEMs can spec a 7.5K change. I believe they also allow some significant safety margin in a 7.5K figure as well. My educated **"guesstimate"** is that a typical PCMO, in typical mixed semi-severe service, does not detramentally wear out until near or past 10K---WAY past my comfort level of leaving it in the car! I don't have data to support this, and if car is in a really consistently dusty place (particulate wear) all bets on life are off.
Of course all this ***assumes the darn oil meets the GF-2 spec*** in the first place, or hopefully exceeds spec in some tests. (I prefer GF-2 spec to SAE, virtually intechangable specs for most oils as sold, but GF-2 is actually more stringent than SAE SJ.)
Editorializing: My memory says, there is data from API (private results, but test now done independently of manufacturer as part of staburst licensing requirements), and the state of North Carolina (actually tests retail oil) indicating a significant number or oils **do not meet spec as sold** [Harts' Luburicant World, a trade mag ran a story awhile back methinks]. I believe the best protection from materially off spec, or poorly designed oils, is to buy a major brand that has resources and motivation to both design and manufacture oils properly. (Yep, I don't personally use discount store oils, or the generics at warehouse club...even though probably they are just fine.)
As I used to personally supervise the manufacture of many types of lubricants, as well as a production lube lab, I know firsthand how careful one has to be to make an on-spec oil day in and day out. I isn't hard at all to engineer and blend/package an oil that will come close to being OK for most people in most cases. BUT, to design it with some additional "safety" in the formulation, and make it meet production specs *everytime* takes Design & Manufacturing excellence. Since, like so many other auto chemicals (PTFE stuff for example), ***consumers cannot *reliably* or quickly tell (by simply looking at the product or engine), actual quality and performance of the lubricant, the best protection IMHO is to buy brand confidence. I just think the big guys can deliver a better product more consistently. If PCMOs were regulated, tested, and had the liabilities, of, say, generic drugs, then I'd consider off-brand and niche/small vendor oil. I am NOT saying those oils are bad at all, just where my personal confidence level is, and why. YMMV.
Add packs as you noted; are roughly the same for conv and syn oils. Using Mobil One as an example, add packs are virtually identical. The difference is that the conventional and syn difference is just that; one is syn and one is conventional. Would you call them one of the biggie boys? The primary difference is that the synthetic is a superior lubricant? Would you agree? The part that seems of secondary issue is is it worth the 2.5 to 3x the cost. As you know, there are many different options whether or not you agree with the basic premise?
It doesn't evaluate the oil in any way, just uses a "counter" based system to trigger oil changes.
I have around 8,000 miles on this engine, live at 7,000 ft elevation, and drive back and forth to work about 6 miles each day. Tow a trailer on weekends or haul my dirt bike.
I have been following a 3,000 mile oil change interval since the vehicle was new using mostly WalMart semisythetic (QS oem).
Oil light triggered at around 3,400 miles the first time and 3,600 miles the second time. Will probably follow the idiot light change interval from now on.
In any case, the prime difference is almost always the syn, and could be the only difference worth discussion between two different base products.
Yes, I'd agree syn is superior lube in some circumstances. So one could broadly say syn is "superior" in a sense. As an Engineer (nerd on), I could define superior meaning a *measurably reliable* & improved result for the end-user of the product. So, for the guy with a delivery pickup truck in Fairbanks syn is "superior"; for the turbo driver syn is superior vs. most solvent refined base oils; for my Dad's Crown Vic in Alabama, it is really a stretch for me to say syn is superior in that application. Due to both base and probably a more premium addpack as well, it does provide a larger margin of safety against some types of lubrication failures; but is not clear that safety margin would ever be close to being used. He can likely get 150K to 200K w/o an oil related failure using say, most quicklubes at 5K intervals (well perhaps, I read some things on filters some outfits use I did not like, but the oil will be OK). Some commercial diesel engine oils will give a million mile warranty to truck owners against oil-ralted failures, and they do it with *conventional (or perhaps group II conventional stocks)*.
Issue of cost is a personal one, unless you are in a *clear* need syn mode. For me, I'll use syn in my 2000 Mazda...Even though there is probably little measurably demonstrable benefit, I want the safety margin and the "best" in the car, and ..."Life is short, oil is cheap" (even most syns at a 5K interval are not too rich for many folks). I keep my cars about 10 years though. A Leased vehicled?...for me it's due diligence at OEM intervals at a quicklube. Even that minimalist is *probably* quite adequate to prevent oil failures for the next owner of the car...
# 398 If you use syn as the basis for an extendid drain, you are depending on the TBN to neutralize acids over a longer time. This is not a problem for a well formulated oil, but to safely go beyond OEM spec, one need data from oil testing. Testing is beyond most consumers willingness. There is some logic to getting the stuff (acid) out rather than relying on Ca-based additive to neutralized it. I am not a fan of extending the drain to cost-justify consumer oils.
I think those things are really good for the more typical driver, that tend to be a little maintenance lax. Good feature in a used car. I'd ask the owner if they changed the oil, and see if they mention the device, etc. Increses odds car sees at least basic maintenance. Always shy of lease returns in shopping used cars, as I bet most lease drivers don't do many oil changes, a light could help the more responsible ones remember their contractual obligation.
As Mwinkle states in #396 "Only chemical, not visual, analysis can tell when oil is "worn out"...big fleets do checking like this all the time." I believe his experiences are invaluable to our decisions.
I stated in #393 that checking with a white paper towel or rag tells me (along with mileage and usage) when to change my oil. I prefer to do around 3-4k. I also said that this was a personal choice to have this type of maintenance schedule. As for oil changing, apparently Mwinkle agrees with that based on his comment in post #396 which is "My practice is to let the oil get a "little" dirty, for a "little" while." Although he did not state that he sent his oil out for testing prior to changing, I have but to seem that he just checked it like the rest of us based on time, mileage, usage and appearance (visual checking).
I like to change the oil and filter at those times. It gets me "under there to have a look see" and if I prolong the change out I feel guilty about not doing it when I feel I should.
The sample report does not tell "exactly" how worn out the oil is...'tho viscosity increase is given data, and this is one good indicator of significant oil depeletion. Fleets can trend certain metals not given (Ca & Zn compounds typically), as well as "fingerprint" the formula with an IR scan, and thus get a pretty good idea of how an oil depletes (even if the suppliers exact formuala is a trade secret for competitive reasons). Most of this analysis is done with diesel fleets where one sees a loading of soot over time, and a decrese in base from combustion and sulfur acid formations. Gas engines are less agressive on the oil in some ways. I used to get customers who could tell if we tweaked or changed the formula of the oil (now that's being in tune with your engine and its lubricant performance~!).
The report looks pretty good though. It will not tell you precisely "how much life" is in the oil (like trending analysis ith commercial fleets), but it will let you know things are OK. Be great for a used car (if you could get a sample of old oil!). Combine this info with common sense, and one could feel pretty good about whatever oil change interval you are comfortable with.
I do use a variation of the "dirty rag test", my comfort is not to change it as soon as it dirty (at 2 to 3K typically for me), but after it has been dirty for say 1K to 2K maximum. I never let it get "really dirty". How is that for science?
Addpack is shorthand for "additive package" that's the stuff oil companies either make (if they have a speicalty chemical company division) or buy to manufacture (or "blend" as we say in the trade) the finished oil. Companies like Lubrizol/Paramins/Oronite/Ethyl sell addpacks. In some cases there is "off the shelf" chemical technology they will provide to all customers, in other cases they make it with specific vendors help and do not sell it to other suppliers. It is possible one vendors oil contains the same (or essentially the same addpack) as anothers. That's not usually true for the all oils, especially premium ones, as some are looking for an "edge". Oil vendors combine various addive packages for many finisfed oils, each addpack imparting different properites to the finished lubricant.
guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference
Does anyone have experience with this system, and do you trust it?
#405,406
IMHO, I don't see it doing the car any harm, but how about the environment? Dino juice is a non renewable resource, and I hate to encourage oil changes at a period which the oil is practically brand new. If it makes you feel better, spend that extra money on quality synthetic oil and leave it in for the recommended period.
No way in this lifetime of mine, would I follow such a schedule. I just changed my oil in the Concorde for the first time (3500 miles) and it was really dark. I know that is not a true verification of the oils ability to protect the internal parts. But for me it is an acceptable one.
BTW, I replaced the mopar oil filter (STP/Champion) with an AC Delco and will do so at every oil change. I replaced the oil with Castrol GTX 10-30wt. We take our oil to a recycling facility when my two 5 gallon containers are full. Please all, do the same.
2 questions...
1) what are you using for filters?
2) what about the "oil service" light? saw a product from peake research on bimmer.net for a tool to reset it. any input?
thanks
Anyone else got any ideas to help Kate12?
Ummm...that orange powdered soap. Anyone recall the name? Gas stations use it to clean the floors.
Gspinelli, used oil can be recylcled quite efficiently. As I recall, 3 used quarts can be used to make 1 new quart. I'm not sure, but they may get other useful things from the old oil.
guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference
Once I tried to buy an aftermarket oil filter from NAPA auto store and the filter I got did not fit at all.
As far as resetting the lights, you need to buy a special tool to do it. the peek research tool is very popular and works very well and is really easy to do.
You can also do it with a paper clip but it is some what tricky and in my mind, dangerous.