Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy · September 2015

fezo said:

Stick - here you were indeed wise to lease this time.

Well, both of ours are gassers, so the recall is not an issue, but would not surprise me to see resale take a hit on those too.

plus if they go out of business, no place to get serviced!

Might have to point my son to something besides an Audi when he replaces the Jetta.

stickguy · September 2015

question for you experts (since I have been too busy to actually read all these articles!).

is their a consensus on exactly how much HP/MPG you would lose running the "test" tune all the time (since I assume that is the simple fix, just lock the software into the program)?

robr2 · September 2015

stickguy said:
question for you experts (since I have been too busy to actually read all these articles!).

is their a consensus on exactly how much HP/MPG you would lose running the "test" tune all the time (since I assume that is the simple fix, just lock the software into the program)?

I have not read anything that details that. I'm sure over the next few weeks, info will come out.

explorerx4 · September 2015

@stickguy, Running in test mode all the time, the cars could get the EPA mileage, but performance could drop and who knows if the whole system can handle it in the long run.

oldfarmer50 · September 2015

explorerx4 said:
@stickguy, Running in test mode all the time, the cars could get the EPA mileage, but performance could drop and who knows if the whole system can handle it in the long run.

I find it hard to believe that performing to legal specs could cause the engine to blow. That figure of putting out 40 X the permissible limits smells of potential prosecutor propaganda.

Hey Stick, wasn't it your son who had a job at Nanotec in Albany? I had a bus run down there today to pick up some of our school's best and brightest. Impressive place. Kind of a cross between future world and Disneyland. I always wondered why one building is shaped like a boat.

I went to grad school right across the street. Of course back then it was an empty field.

abacomike · September 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

@stickguy, Running in test mode all the time, the cars could get the EPA mileage, but performance could drop and who knows if the whole system can handle it in the long run.
I find it hard to believe that performing to legal specs could cause the engine to blow. That figure of putting out 40 X the permissible limits smells of potential prosecutor propaganda. Hey Stick, wasn't it your son who had a job at Nanotec in Albany? I had a bus run down there today to pick up some of our school's best and brightest. Impressive place. Kind of a cross between future world and Disneyland. I always wondered why one building is shaped like a boat.

The architects wanted the city to be ready for the great flood!

snakeweasel · September 2015

andres3 said:

suydam said:
1 mile, no, but 2 or 3, it would figure in.
Or 1 extra MPG, plus an extra 40 or so horses would do it. Better acceleration/performance AND better mileage; now that's a win win, even if it's 1 MPG and .2 seconds to 60 MPH.

Most, if not all, people wouldn't really notice a 1 MPG and 0.2 second to 60 increase. I really can't see it as a tie breaker.

snakeweasel · September 2015

robr2 said:
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the states with emissions testing will simply fail cars based on VIN's provided by VW that have not had the recall done. Further, the states could block registration of non repaired vehicles again based on the VIN list.

That would require massive daily updates to all testing sites. It would be better to have the cars computer tell the testing centers computer that it has been updated when it gets plugged in during the test.

snakeweasel · September 2015

suydam said:
OTOH, those who own VW/ Audi vehicles with gas engines, the majority in this country, won't see any difference.

If I were a VW/Audi owner with a gas engine I would be wondering what time bomb was ticking under my hood. There may be nothing but it would be in the back of my mind.

berri · September 2015

Well, I think it will go like the Ford Explorer went. Initially there were impacts to vehicle reputation and resale. But Ford eventually redesigned it and it is still a strong seller today. Plus, Audi has snob appeal, so VW models will probably be more impacted.

stickguy · September 2015

Yes Farmer, my son is still at the Nano lab there. Not sure if the "boat" building, but it is the first one in off the circle on Fuller. really is an impressive operation there.

snakeweasel · September 2015

oldfarmer50 said:
. I always wondered why one building is shaped like a boat.

That's what happens when you hire the architecture firm of Smith, Jones and Noah.

fezo · September 2015

I suspect all VWs will suffer in resale value as a result of this. Major, major black eye for the company. Whether the can survive it depends on if there are more shoes dropping. If what we have is pretty much the story they'll suffer for a few years but will manage their way back.

In the meantime, I think the less Asian feeling Japanese brands will benefit - Mazda, maybe Subaru (I sure wish they'd bring back he Legacy wagon - a much better feel to driving one than an Outback). Buick could benefit - especially if they maybe advertised the German roots of some of their lineup.

Dang. There goes my would be GTI.

cdnpinhead · September 2015

roadburner said:
The Golf R was on my short list- but no longer.

Me too. OTOH, I bet I could pick up a "nice used" VW TDI for peanuts in the not-too-distant future. Register it up in the mountains (my cabin), and no need to pass pollution tests.

Hmmm.

stickguy · September 2015

yeah Fezo. Just look at the suddenly depressed prices as a buying opportunity!

stever · September 2015

Well, if VW quits selling them, the value of TDIs on the street could skyrocket.

oldfarmer50 · September 2015

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

suydam said:
1 mile, no, but 2 or 3, it would figure in.
Or 1 extra MPG, plus an extra 40 or so horses would do it. Better acceleration/performance AND better mileage; now that's a win win, even if it's 1 MPG and .2 seconds to 60 MPH.
Most, if not all, people wouldn't really notice a 1 MPG and 0.2 second to 60 increase. I really can't see it as a tie breaker.

Would VW really take the risk of these potential massive fines for those small gains? I'm thinking that when the facts come out the performance degradation they were trying to avoid is substantial.

Just think how stiffer pollution standards killed the muscle car. IIRC by 1975 a big block Corvette was only putting out 165hp.

Just saw a VW commercial where a local VW dealer was offering "$2000 over book" for all trades. Dealers must be getting worried.

sb55 · September 2015

fezo said:

Owners of these vehicles will be watching their resale or trade-in values plummet like VW stock.

My son has had a 2010 Jetta TDI for sale for 2 weeks. He is resigned to the fact that it will not sell now. He called a dealer and they told him they can't buy or sell any diesel now.

I'm kind of surprised to see the VW "clean" diesel advertisement right on this page! Thought

oldfarmer50 · September 2015

snakeweasel said:

oldfarmer50 said:
. I always wondered why one building is shaped like a boat.
That's what happens when you hire the architecture firm of Smith, Jones and Noah.

You can't really see the shape in this photo but believe me, it really does look like a boat.

robr2 · September 2015

Here in MA, the testing centers are online with the state so that wouldn't be an issue. I'm sure other states do the same.

snakeweasel said:

robr2 said:
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the states with emissions testing will simply fail cars based on VIN's provided by VW that have not had the recall done. Further, the states could block registration of non repaired vehicles again based on the VIN list.
That would require massive daily updates to all testing sites. It would be better to have the cars computer tell the testing centers computer that it has been updated when it gets plugged in during the test.

snakeweasel · September 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

oldfarmer50 said:
. I always wondered why one building is shaped like a boat.
That's what happens when you hire the architecture firm of Smith, Jones and Noah.
You can't really see the shape in this photo but believe me, it really does look like a boat.

A few months ago we went to a wedding in Milwaukee and the reception was held at the Milwaukee Art Museum on the lakefront. If you want to see a building shaped like a boat that is the one.

qbrozen · September 2015

VW - I think this will have to wind up in a forced buy-back of all 2009 and up 4-cyl VW diesels. I really can't see any alternative. The EPA can't allow the possibility that owners won't bring it in for a "fix." They need to get them all off the road to ensure it is done right. Whether VW can turn around and resell them is another matter. And this is just the 4xx,xxx units in the US. I wonder about the other 10.5 million in the world. I agree with isell that this could be massive and crippling.

tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.

Michaell · September 2015

qbrozen said:
tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.

q, hope you get moved without too much drama. I'm in the new house as of Monday, but there are still 1001 little things that need to be taken care of. The bigger projects are almost done, and the unpacking continues. I've got internet service (yay!), so I've got that going for me.

While I haven't posted much, I've been able to keep up with the various discussions I'm subscribed to. I haven't formed any opinions yet about the VW situation...

imidazol97 · September 2015

qbrozen said:
tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.

I asked my friend in upper South Carolina (close to the edge of the Smokey Mountains) how his tankless water heater was doing. He has his set at 140 deg F. No problem with multiple users taking shower and starting dishwasher. He bought the unit that uses the exhaust gases to preheat the incoming water within the unit. His neighbor, on the other hand, bought the same unit, set it at 110 deg F for safety and has all kinds of lack of adequate flow. Yes, flow, not just water not hot enough. Company has tried to diagnose problem.

I suspect their water temperature in the cold seasons is still much warmer than our water temp here in winter and spring in Ohio.

Michaell · September 2015

imidazol97 said:

qbrozen said:
tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.
I asked my friend in upper South Carolina (close to the edge of the Smokey Mountains) how his tankless water heater was doing. He has his set at 140 deg F. No problem with multiple users taking shower and starting dishwasher. He bought the unit that uses the exhaust gases to preheat the incoming water within the unit. His neighbor, on the other hand, bought the same unit, set it at 110 deg F for safety and has all kinds of lack of adequate flow. Yes, flow, not just water not hot enough. Company has tried to diagnose problem.

I suspect their water temperature in the cold seasons is still much warmer than our water temp here in winter and spring in Ohio.

My folks in Southern California installed a tankless water heater several years ago. On my visits there, it seems that it takes a long time for the water to heat up in the shower. I don't know what temperature they have it set to; I'll need to ask.

oldfarmer50 · September 2015

qbrozen said:
VW - I think this will have to wind up in a forced buy-back of all 2009 and up 4-cyl VW diesels. I really can't see any alternative. The EPA can't allow the possibility that owners won't bring it in for a "fix." They need to get them all off the road to ensure it is done right. Whether VW can turn around and resell them is another matter. And this is just the 4xx,xxx units in the US. I wonder about the other 10.5 million in the world. I agree with isell that this could be massive and crippling.

tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.

This kind of unexpected repair?

imidazol97 · September 2015

In the meantime, I think the less Asian feeling Japanese brands will benefit - Mazda, maybe Subaru (I sure wish they'd bring back he Legacy wagon - a much better feel to driving one than an Outback). Buick could benefit - especially if they maybe advertised the German roots of some of their lineup.

I've pointed out before that many on Edmunds, in other topics, don't even act like GM exists unless it's something negative! LOL. I'm glad to see Buick mentioned here, and I would think some GM's would benefit beyond Buick.

Indeed, as mentioned the Malibu's platform was designed in Rüsselsheim, Germany, by Opel. That would explain the ride that it has that I find firmer and well controlled compared to my leSabre, but is still pleasant unless some of the Asian/Koreans that I drove which were "brittle" in their ride. I would think those GM Europe-developed vehicles should benefit some. The list of those which start with the medium and long wheelbase versions of the Epsilon II platform by Opel include the Saab and laCrose, XTS, and Impala, along with the Regal and Malibu.

I probably would have liked the Passat's drive when I was test driving for the last purchase, but the reliability thing kept me away from the VW/Audi BMW Volvo store here and I have not driven a Passat. I did drive a German Jetta a decade back.

abacomike · September 2015

As I posted recently, my tankless water heater is 10+ years old and is electric because we have no access to natural gas. It operates by hot water demand. The unit is always in "off" position. When there is a demand for hot water, an LED light goes on at the top of the unit indicating the water coming into the unit is being heated. Once demand ends, the unit shuts down (LED goes out).

The water pressure in my condo unit is not always stable because of condo units above and below me. When pressure drops because of water usage by all 4 condo units on my line (4 story building), obviously it affects hot water pressure. So if both showers are going at the same time, it gets a bit dicey. But that only happens when I have visitors or family here. That happens very seldom.

My electric bill in the warm months (June-October) is averaging $50.00 a month. Florida Power & Light estimates my bill will be in the mid to upper $30.00 range during the cooler months.

FPL just initiated a new feature on their mobil and regular website when I log in to view my bill. It shows daily usage of electricity on a graph showing average daytime high temperatures. It also shows an extension of that same graph for the next billing month based on expected high daily temps and prior usage of kWh's. A truly helpful feature.

Ever since I put in a new Whirlpool refrigerator, my daily usage of electricity decreased by 20%. The old GE refrigerator was 25 years old and probably leaked air from the old door seals. It was constantly running. The new one is energy efficient and runs half as much.

As for electric usage, obviously it has been cut by 1/4 since Dad passed on July 1st. He was almost blind so he did not watch TV very much.

abacomike · September 2015

@imidazol97:

I agree with your assessment of GM vehicles that might benefit from VW's woes. The Buick line (mid-sized German engineered models) definitely should compete nicely for those looking for performance and more of a European ride. Also, any other models (Chevy Malibu and Cadillac ATS/CTS) in GM's line with more of a European feel.

My take on the future of Diesel powered cars here in the US, at least in the short run (2-3 years), will see a decrease in demand until faith/trust in emissions and fuel economy is restored.

ab348 · September 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

Just saw a VW commercial where a local VW dealer was offering "$2000 over book" for all trades. Dealers must be getting worried.

I think that is the real story here that the media has so far completely overlooked. The impact on VW dealers, especially smaller family-owned dealerships, might be devastating.

driver100 · September 2015

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Just saw a VW commercial where a local VW dealer was offering "$2000 over book" for all trades. Dealers must be getting worried.

I think that is the real story here that the media has so far completely overlooked. The impact on VW dealers, especially smaller family-owned dealerships, might be devastating.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dealers must really worried....customers canceling orders. My good neighbor wanted to trade in his 08 diesel Jett a for a new one. I order what he will end up doing.

I know I hold a grudge for much too long but I wrote to my pal, the president of Audi Canada. I reminded him I bought an Audi and the clutch went in 10000 miles, and wasn't covered. I said it is obvious VW/Audi was an arrogant and dishonest company and it finally caught up with them.

But, dealers must be shaking in their boots. What about sales staff, it will probably be pretty quiet in the showroom right now.

But, people forget, they forgot about GM, Hyundai, Audi brakes, Ford Explorer, Honda, and the airbags, and then there was ExxonMobil and BP.

Of course the president of the company is sorry and promises to change, and they probably will just so they don't get into more trouble until the next time.

Amsterdam is a great city, especially Hop On Hop Off canal tour by boat.

stever · September 2015

Some of us still avoid, oh, Volvos and Exxon stations. It's funny what people pick and choose to avoid, and the reasons why are often inexplicable.

henryn · September 2015

Dealers must really worried....customers canceling orders. My good neighbor wanted to trade in his 08 diesel Jetta for a new one. I order what he will end up doing.

But, dealers must be shaking in their boots. What about sales staff, it will probably be pretty quiet in the showroom right now.

But, people forget, they forgot about GM, Hyundai, Audi brakes, Ford Explorer, Honda, and the airbags, and then there was ExxonMobil and BP.

I agree, memory these days seems to be a very short term thing. I believe if VW can survive the short term direct consequences, they will recover, and in fairly short order (2 to 4 years?).

But … and this is a big “but” – can they survive the short term? Will they have to buy back those 500k cars here in the US as @qbrozen has speculated? And what about the millions and millions in Europe?

This is going to take a while to play out. And should be very interesting.

henryn · September 2015

stever said:
Some of us still avoid, oh, Volvos and Exxon stations. It's funny what people pick and choose to avoid, and the reasons why are often inexplicable.

I used to be a really big fan of the NFL and the Houston Oilers. When they moved to Tennessee in 1997, I swore off. I have not watched an NFL game in the last 18 years. If the NFL and the teams in the NFL have zero loyalty to their fan base, then they deserve none from us.

So, yes, some of us do remember. But we are a very small minority.

imidazol97 · September 2015

henryn said:

stever said:
Some of us still avoid, oh, Volvos and Exxon stations. It's funny what people pick and choose to avoid, and the reasons why are often inexplicable.
I used to be a really big fan of the NFL and the Houston Oilers. When they moved to Tennessee in 1997, I swore off. I have not watched an NFL game in the last 18 years. If the NFL and the teams in the NFL have zero loyalty to their fan base, then they deserve none from us.

So, yes, some of us do remember. But we are a very small minority.

That was just discussed on morning talk radio earlier today! It was in conjunction with how those same teams use the threat of moving a team as a wedge to get a stadium built for a wealthy private business operation at public expense. The Bengals stadium deal in Cincy is often described as the worst deal for a stadium ever--for the public taxpayers in Hamilton County (Metro Cincy).

I see a great parallel with how the auto companies manipulate the state and local communities for subsidies for their auto plants along with their worker training and pay. I wonder how Tennessee is feeling about their subsidies to VW/Audi in Chattanooga?

stever · September 2015

I have family in Chattanooga, including a nephew who works for an auto supplier who makes a few interior bits for VW. My nephew had barely heard of the issue when I emailed him yesterday (he works way too hard). He doesn't think their company will be affected.

The flack in the paper down there is two-fold - the potential loss of jobs (they are making the Passat there, including the diesel flavor). VW is hinting about a second assembly line to build SUVs and that's at risk. We're talking about ~2,000 VW jobs, another 2,000 potential hires to build SUVs and perhaps 6,000 supplier jobs. Indirect employment is even bigger I suppose, from selling Krystal burgers to employees and all the rest.

The other griping I've read about is just as you say. TN and Chattanooga have given VW a lot of money and "free" infrastructure (a road to the freeway and an upgraded railspur are the most visible things) and there apparently are no clawback provisions if VW mothballs the factory.

VW (and the other Euro carmakers) need to do a 180 and go hybrid and EV fast. Chattanooga would be a great place to do that; lots of semi-cheap TVA hydro and downtown has been served by free electric shuttles for years now. It really changed from a polluting factory town when I lived there in '74-'77 to a place with a bike share program and enough fiber bandwidth to embarass Google.

houdini1 · September 2015

robr2 said:
The difference is intent. VW designed their emissions system to do something illegal. GM didn't.

But didn't GM deliberately refuse to fix the known the fault for about 10 years ?

PF_Flyer · September 2015

stever said:
Some of us still avoid, oh, Volvos and Exxon stations. It's funny what people pick and choose to avoid, and the reasons why are often inexplicable.

Sort of reminds me back when most people had favorite brands of gas. My Dad was a Texaco guy and would never go to a Sunoco station. Funny

andres3 · September 2015

roadburner said:
I'm no cheerleader for GM, but I think VW's conduct was more serious as they set out to cheat/deceive from the get-go. The Golf R was on my short list- but no longer.

So your argument boils down to VW being smartly and cleverly criminal, whereas GM is just negligently incompetent..... often...... However, I think a calculated $$ for XX part vs. $$ for potential future wrongful death lawsuits was considered at GM at some point.

I suppose one could argue that this wasn't very clever on VW's part as it might end up costing them far more than it benefited them for the last decade or so. Short term gain for long term pain.

driver100 · September 2015

My Dad would only buy Shell. Then we found out, in Canada at least, almost all gas came from the same refinery and was delivered by the same trucks. Each company adds their own extras later.

abacomike · September 2015

PF_Flyer said:

Some of us still avoid, oh, Volvos and Exxon stations. It's funny what people pick and choose to avoid, and the reasons why are often inexplicable.
Sort of reminds me back when most people had favorite brands of gas. My Dad was a Texaco guy and would never go to a Sunoco station. Funny

I won't buy Citgo gas because of where the oil that is refined to produce it originates from. Also, I only buy top tier gasoline so that eliminates at least half the brands of gas.

andres3 · September 2015

robr2 said:

andres3 said:

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

roadburner said:
PMD thinks VWoA is toast.
That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

So I can get stoned to the beejeezus belt on booze and drugs, get behind the wheel of my GM car and wrap it around a tree at 70mph and blame GM for my injuries, but VW can build 11 MILLION VEHICLES that would not be allowed to be sold because they break the laws of the land in whatever country they were shipped to, and that is just fine?

Gotcha.
If the driver was stoned and/or drunk, I think that makes blaming the ignition for the crash a weak(er) case. I have a feeling that out of all the people that died where the ignition is being blamed, only a small percentage were drunk and/or high on drugs, but I could be wrong.

I'm not saying what VW has done is fine, just pointing out that it appears VW motives for doing what they did actually improves the customer's experience, whereas what GM has done in the past is anti-customer. If you are buying a vehicle because it has low emissions; shouldn't you be getting a Prius anyway?

I know we chose a TDI not because it was supposed to be green, but because it gets great mileage.

VW deliberately gamed the system, but they didn't put people's lives at risk.
But what if I bought a TDI due to it being advertised as a clean alternative? Such false advertising did nothing for my customer experience. In fact now I would feel that I was duped.

Yes, a customer that bought for GREEN reasons is immediately cheated and should be compensated by VW.

If regulators force me to be cheated in HP and MPG then I should be compensated as well (by VW, gov't, EPA, and whoever else is responsible).

If VW runs out of money to make this right with everyone, where do customers stand in line vs. other creditors? Will Obama bailout a German company instead of an Italian or American one? VW does employ people throughout the USA, and especially in TN.

Competition is good for consumers, right, we should all want VW to survive? At least that's one of the arguments I heard back in 2008 & 2009.

driver100 · September 2015

The flack in the paper down there is two-fold - the potential loss of jobs (they are making the Passat there, including the diesel flavor). VW is hinting about a second assembly line to build SUVs and that's at risk. We're talking about ~2,000 VW jobs, another 2,000 potential hires to build SUVs and perhaps 6,000 supplier jobs. Indirect employment is even bigger I suppose, from selling Krystal burgers to employees and all the rest.

Last I heard fines could be about $18 billion for the US. But VW is worth something like $128 billion, and they have lots of infrastructure in place. Just like BP, fines were huge, but income is even more. It is a huge setback, especially for stock holders, but vw will probably survive. Government might cut them a deal as they did with GM and Chrysler to save jobs.
They'll have big sales, cut profit for awhile, make deals people can't refuse, and the public will forget, they always do. I stopped buying Exxon gas after their big spill, but now I don't even think about it, and I buy ExxonMobil most of the time.

We buy cars that are built in countries we went to war with. It's probably a good thing we forgive and forget.

imidazol97 · September 2015

andres3 · September 2015

qbrozen said:
VW - I think this will have to wind up in a forced buy-back of all 2009 and up 4-cyl VW diesels. I really can't see any alternative. The EPA can't allow the possibility that owners won't bring it in for a "fix." They need to get them all off the road to ensure it is done right. Whether VW can turn around and resell them is another matter. And this is just the 4xx,xxx units in the US. I wonder about the other 10.5 million in the world. I agree with isell that this could be massive and crippling.

tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.

If the EPA's goal is to get polluter's off the street, then a forced full price buy-back (maybe a small deduct for mileage) is all that is feasible. Can VW simply turn around and resell them in Mexico or China where Eco-Weenies aren't as strict?

dino001 · September 2015

andres3 said:

roadburner said:
I'm no cheerleader for GM, but I think VW's conduct was more serious as they set out to cheat/deceive from the get-go. The Golf R was on my short list- but no longer.
So your argument boils down to VW being smartly and cleverly criminal, whereas GM is just negligently incompetent..... often...... However, I think a calculated $$ for XX part vs. $$ for potential future wrongful death lawsuits was considered at GM at some point.

Essesntially yes, except no "clever and smart" adjectives to VW conduct. More "myopically deceptive". You can fool all some time, you can fool some all the time, but you can't fool all all the time. VW thought they could. That is not really smart. It's smart a**.

oldfarmer50 · September 2015

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:
VW - I think this will have to wind up in a forced buy-back of all 2009 and up 4-cyl VW diesels. I really can't see any alternative. The EPA can't allow the possibility that owners won't bring it in for a "fix." They need to get them all off the road to ensure it is done right. Whether VW can turn around and resell them is another matter. And this is just the 4xx,xxx units in the US. I wonder about the other 10.5 million in the world. I agree with isell that this could be massive and crippling.

tankless water heater - thanks for the reviews, guys. Unfortunately, an unexpected repair bill here at my current house is really hurting our chances of getting anything like that done at the new house anytime soon.
If the EPA's goal is to get polluter's off the street, then a forced full price buy-back (maybe a small deduct for mileage) is all that is feasible. Can VW simply turn around and resell them in Mexico or China where Eco-Weenies aren't as strict?

There's a business opportunity if I ever saw one. Come on down south of the border to Oldfarmers used VW showroom where the deals are muy caliente'.

andres3 · September 2015

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Just saw a VW commercial where a local VW dealer was offering "$2000 over book" for all trades. Dealers must be getting worried.

I think that is the real story here that the media has so far completely overlooked. The impact on VW dealers, especially smaller family-owned dealerships, might be devastating.

Heard a report that VW was already compensating USA VW dealers with some cash. That was fast if true. Now I think customers should come first, but that's just me.

dino001 · September 2015

andres3 said:

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Just saw a VW commercial where a local VW dealer was offering "$2000 over book" for all trades. Dealers must be getting worried.

I think that is the real story here that the media has so far completely overlooked. The impact on VW dealers, especially smaller family-owned dealerships, might be devastating.
Heard a report that VW was already compensating USA VW dealers with some cash. That was fast if true. Now I think customers should come first, but that's just me.

Let's not lose perspective - those are not immediate death traps. The conduct was criminal and brazen, but customers can wait even a few months. Dealers on the other hand had to borrow money to buy the inventory they can't sell - not just directly affected units, but also expect dramatic slowdown in other units as a fallout. The bank doesn't care, they want their interest payment now. This is an immediate problem that could threaten dealers' liquidity. The customers can simply drive those cars with knowledge that, while perfectly functional and legal (the government does not prohibit them from using the vehicles, nobody tells them to park the car), they are not worth as much today as they were a week ago and may also require some action before next emission certification. Completely different issue.

Let's not demagogue the issues or overdramatize it. While serious long term, we are not talking immediate danger, exclusion, or cash losses.

BTW, in comparison to GM, my stance is that VW's behavior seems clearly more criminal in terms of the intent and scope (number of cars affected), the customers' situation and damage is not as dire that those who could have suffered death or injury due to the malfunction. GM's damnation came from stonewalling (and series of other steps, like possible coverup when the new part was issued with same part code, which is clearly against the rules of conduct), what was an early mistake in a process. VW set to have an illegal intent from the conception. From the point of view of prosecution, I'd take VW's case over GM (clear intent and admission after the fact).

From point of view of human suffering, it's probably GM's - the injury was greater to fewer people and immediate and can be given a face, VW's injury can only be assessed statistically, but it does have more people affected by much smaller way. 40 times the limit is terrible, but I would like to see limits for those school buses and dump trucks spewing clouds of black smoke I have not seen such clouds behind those new TDI's. Also, specifically to the US, half million vehicles sold is really small vs. the entire population.

fezo · September 2015

Certain things are happening fast. Their CEO who swore to stay on has been booted. I think this going to get bigger relatively quickly.

driver - yes, many companies get their gasoline from a common refinery, but those additives are what differentiates one gasoline from another. The best being top tier. If you're only using Exxon or Mobil you're in fine shape. That's what they are. Shell, BP, 76 are in the same boat along with several others. If while travelling down you hit a Connoco station you're good to go. In Florida Chevron and Texaco.

As for what I wouldn't but I wouldn't but Citgo unless I was desperate but that's because I think it's bear pee. Same for Gulf. If I want to boycott based on clear and present danger I's skip Lukoil (which I think is only in a piece of the Northeast) and Getty as they are owned by the Russians who are far more serious threat to us than Venezuela. If I could find a company that sold gas that didn't originate in Saudi Arabia sign me up. No need to finance terrorism if I can avoid it. I realize that that particular barrel of oil is going to be bought somewhere and I'm essentially I'm tilting at windmills but so is anyone taking a moral stand on gasoline. Buying only top tier is another story. I know some people don't believe that but I find it makes a difference and besides, it's cheap.

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