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I've seen lots of noise about Mobil using Group III base oil for their Mobil 1 EP product line, however, I've never seen any evidence that the Mobil 1 (non-EP) product line is manufactured with anything other than a full PAO base. Do you have any references to any science suggesting that any of the Mobil 1 (non-EP) oils are anything other than a Group IV base oil?
FWIW, per the MSDS for the Mobil 1 EP 5W-30, even EOM admits that they are using a Group III for that oil by saying, "Contains: Base oil severely refined...". With that in mind, I personally have no doubt at least some of the Mobil 1 EP oils are built with a Group III base.
"I saw specs published on the net that indicated that as of March of 2003, Mobil 1 only used a TBN of 5.0 in their grade of 5 W 30..."
I just checked dozens of Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 EP VOAs going back to 2002, and the lowest TBN of any of them was from an old Mobil 1 0W-20 VOA, and that was still 9.5. The lowest Mobil 1 5W-30 (non-EP) that I found was 10.7 and the lowest Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 that I found was 10.6. Said another way, I think your data suggesting a 5.0 TBN for a 5W-30 Mobil 1 oil is highly suspect. Could you possibly have been looking at a UOA or a VOA from one of the conventional oils sold by EOM?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Don't know for sure but there are plenty of potential reasons:
1) Over the years they've consistently stated that Synthetic Oil = PAO, and they are still maintaining that assertion.
2) With #1 in mind, reading the MSDSs for every non-EP Mobil 1 product line, EOM claims "Contains: Synthetic base oils..." Hmmm, sounds like a synthetic to me.
3) With #1 in mind, reading the MSDSs for the Mobil 1 EP product line, one will encounter such language as, ">"Contains: Base oil severely refined..." as well as "...Synthetic base oils..." for at least one of the three. Ohhh, this sounds like a Synthetic Blend to me.
4) EOM isn't the only maker of engine oil these days that is holding their formulation cards close to the vest (so to speak). In these days of Gas Chromatograph testing, it is very difficult to keep proprietary formulations secret.
Points one through three say to me that they (EOM) are being as forthcoming as they need to be or even should be. Why "should be"? Well, it's possible that I have a slightly different perspective maybe on this issue compared to most folks. As a U.S. Patent holder, intellectual property is very important to me, and that leads me to point #4. Why give your competition any indication whatsoever about what you are doing? I say to the management at EOM, "Folks, be as cagey as possible."
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
So for example, the 2004 Honda Civic oem's recommendation is a 5w20 (conventional oil) meeting HONDA specifications. The OCI recommendation is 10,000 miles and for those with the OLM, at a specific % left.
The manual (for example) also says pretty plainly the MAJORITY of drivers do fall into the NORMAL cycle. Translation? If you happen to be that 30,000-50,000 mile per year driver, i.e, courier or post person AND you moonlight as a NYC pizza delivery driver towing a heating oven, yah might fall into the severe category.
Driving in city, or in hot places, or in cold ones, or in mountains, or even in hilly terrains is not considered normal.
Normal is 95% highway driving somewhere in KS...
I have an oil monitor on my car; with my driving pattern it asks for oil change after 6,000 miles. According to the manual, normal is 7,500 miles, and severe is 3,000 miles. I live in Hamden, CT - a suburb of New Haven. New Haven is a small city, but there is still a lot of stop signs and traffic lights here. No mountains, but the terrains are hilly.
My previous cars did not had the oil monitors. I used to change oil every 5,000 miles to be safe.
According to your own definitions, you are NOT in the severe category.
Upshot, the most objective is an oil analysis, which costs anywhere from 20-40. I know and will point out is probably 99.9% of drivers do NOT do oil analysis let alone know what it is or know what to do with them.
But that as it may, it might be arcane to uncommonly known that some engines (in different segments) are harder on oil than others. While I didn't buy the 2004 Honda Civic because it was easy on oil (per se), it is easy on oil. This is some what confusing in that for example the 10,000 mile recommendation is on conventional oil. Conventional oil has a TBN of 7 so miles per TBN with a safety of say 1/2 TBN = app 1700-2000 miles per.
Synthetic oil, such as Mobil One 5w20 has a TBN of 12. Using the same short hand, the figures now extend out to 17,000 to 20,000 miles.
2nd upshot: the most objective is an oil analysis, which costs anywhere from 20-40.
So for example, I have one that the oem specifies Mobil One 5w30 synthetic oil and up to 15,000 and or 1 year. It also has an OLM. The way I drive it, the olm recommends app 14,500-14,800 miles. To be safe I change it between 14,500 to 14,800 miles.
I have another that recommends 10,000 miles, but supporting oil analysis done by a wide range of folks who have the similar car using similar oil(Mobil One T & SUV 5w40 aka Delvac One 5w40) run it between 15,000 and 25,000 miles. The good news, With the advent of ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) FROM LSD (low sulfur diesel), indications are it is good to go to 30,000 miles.
Yes, but not in the normal one either. Somewhere in-between.
I am no expert, but...
Now that is just silly. "Normal" would be the way most people drive. Dealers like to claim that everyone is in severe category to sell more oil changes...which is odd since they often have coupon specials that seem to price the oil changes as a loss leader :confuse: .
Contrary to this, some manufacturers seem to be more aggressive in claiming extended non-synthetic OCIs, like 7,500 mi. I have had Ford's recently and their normal OCI is 5000 mi or 6 months. From what I have absorbed from various sources, this is probably a reasonable OCI with conventional oil for almost everyone.
With synthetic, I feel safe in following our VW's recomendation of 10,000 mi or 12 months.
And yes, the monitor does not distinguish between even the best synthetic oil and the cheapest non-name one, as long as it meets the minimal design specs...
Now about 7,500 miles OCI: we have two almost identical cars in our family, a 2000 Buick Regal GS, and 2004 one. "Normal" (i.e. ideal) OCIs are, respectively, 7,500 and 10,000 miles or one year. Or may be even 12,000 miles for the 2004 Regal - I do not remember exactly. And yes, according to oil monitors, the 2004 Regal can ran for longer distances between oil changes in similar driving conditions. My wife drives more smooth, though.
Now, I do not think the OSIs are aggressive. The classic 3,800 engine is bullet-proof, and it runs mostly at 1,800-2,200 rpm. Few seconds of 3,000-3,600 rpm when entering on highways or in similar cases. Supercharger almost does not matter.
We are using Mobil 1 nevertheless - just because it is a better oil.
Ford say "normal", if you only occasionally operate your vehicle under the following conditions:
Towing a trailer or using a camper or car-top carrier
Extensive idling and/or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use such as delivery, taxi, patrol car, or livery
Operating in dusty conditions such as upaved or dusty roads
Off-road operation
Most will clearly be in the "normal" category, based on this.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Our VW is more vague...just says extremely low temps, dust, "etc."
The Sandman
The Sandman
Your civic is designed to use 5w20 which by its very nature is a highly refined petro oil. Switching to 5W20 Mobil 1 or Amsoil and then just changing the oil once a year by time would be a good idea.
If you are doing such low mileage then just changing the oil about once a year should be fine.
Some of the reasons I use Mobil One 0w20,5w20
1. fuel savings due to synthetic vs conventional oil actually make it cheaper (per mile lubricated) to use the more expensive (up front) synthetic oil
2. As cited, I do use the longer OCI
2b this saves time, resources,
2c. money for shop time/labor at dealer/vendor charges.
3. as robust as the 5w20 conventional oil is the Mobil One is even more so
The Sandman
The yearly commute use is app 16,000 per year, so that puts oil changing at every 1.25 years. I really like the way synthetic runs in this car. I have 10,000 miles on OEM 5w20 conventional fill as a comparison.
So I think you know what I am doing.
If you drove more miles a year then using pure true synthetic and extendeing the OCI to 15,000 or more would make sense. Time effects oil quality too so you don't want to leave the oil in the engine for nearly two years just to get up to 15,000-18,000 miles on the OCI.
If you don't mind the little extra expense then running a pure synthetic and just changing it yearly while ignoring the oil change monitor is not a bad way to go either. It will cost you a little more for each oil change but will save you money in the long run with better fuel economy and a cleaner engine.
I used to swap oil & filter every 4k miles or so, but I think it's best that I follow the oil monitor & stick with my dino juice...5W20. Thanks for the great advice guys!!!
The Sandman
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As you probably are aware, a daily drive of 5 miles R/T. indeed meets the definition of "severe". Incomplete, unburnt, and lower temperature conbustion by-products are not given the operating time, mileage and temperature to burn off more completely (one (to 2) hour/s at full operating temp (freeway miles) is optimium). Thus the oils additives are called on to neutralize a greater %, thus lowering additive life. So in the case of the Honda Civic (again the nexus is what the oem owners manual recommends) severe is 5,000 miles OCI.
I found nothing about synthetic oil in my owners manual.
The real way to drive this cost home to DIYer's is ask how would folks would feel if their employer asked them to change the company vehicles' oil on their lunch hour. I am thinking that in the majority of cases, this would not be well received.
So to me, the math on longer oci's has always been very compelling. This alone makes the upfront more expensive oil, eg. Amsoil)look down right CHEAP.
There's a rousing endorsement. The implication of your post is that since Amsoil works for you and your company, it is the best oil out there and all others are worthless. :P
Rhetoric like the stuff you post is one of the primary reasons why many folks, myself included, won't use Amsoil, even if it became the last fully synthetic oil on Earth.
Best Regards,
Shipo
There are lots of Amsoil sellers who will tell you that it is the best product on the market. It is sold in a very peculiar way as well.
In my case, the autrageous claims about 25k to 35K miles OCI's it made me distrust the product but I purchased it anyway with the intention to do an oil analysis to disprove its so called qualities.
After half a dozen oil analysis I must say it has worked very well for me, not better but equal to Mobil 1.
Am I making this clear???
How good is this Amsoil as compared to Mobil 1?
The Sandman :confuse:
The Sandman :confuse:
A comment about Amsoil sellers. The constant drumbeat reminds me of Zaino posts to the point that a group on Edmunds here bans Zaino posts in one topic.
Store Bought Waxes Part II (No Zaino Posts)
I'm trying to decide if I want to use a synthetic in my newer car at least in warmer weather for extended oil change interval, so I'm reading this with open ears to learn.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
For example, 10,000 mile OCI with CONVENTIONAL oil will convert to 18,377 miles using synthetic. The olm, since you can not adjust it (for synthetic)(in other words the algorithms are based on an assumed TBN of 7, (other factors too) will still calculate for 10,000 miles (for example). SOOOOOOO for synthetic you would go to 18,377 miles to compensate.
So for ANOTHER example, for me 18,377 is too weird a practical number to remember, even as it is such a weird number; you will probably remember it.
The Sandman :confuse:
I "had been" a faithful user of Mobil 1 for a number of years in several different vehicles. Prior to Mobil 1, I had used Castrol Syntec for a number of years as well. I must admit that I had fallen for the advertising of Castrol and Mobil that consequently led me to become a faithful follower of both products, just as you currently seem to be with the massive oil giant. Prior to the Syntec usage, I was a loyal user of Castrol dino juice, especially after an experimentation I conducted back in the early 1980's where I found that Castrol 10W40 allowed me to wind 1st gear at a higher RPM that kept the engine much more silent than its competition at the time (Valvoline and Pennzoil). Also a certain consumer magazine (that does not like its name mentioned in any publication) did a lab comparison test of most of the major oils back in the mid 1980's, where the Castrol 10W40 came out on top in its particular grade for maintaining its vicosity under the punishing test. The only synthetic that this magazine tested at the time was Mobil 1 in the 5W30 grade, which beat its competition in that particular grade, but then again all of its competition in the 5W30 grade was all dino juice, so no particular surprises, right?
I then stopped using Castrol Syntec when I discovered on one cold winter day that I was barely able to start my car. It cranked very slowly and almost did not start. When it did start, the engine exhibited all the symptoms of dino juice, where the engine runs very rough and no doubt it is during this cold start/warm up phase where some metal to metal contact is being made that leads to needless engine wear (where the thick as molasses oil cannot be easily pumped by the oil pump). Later, I read that Syntec is nothing more than super refined dino juice, which is probably why I found it hard to start on that cold winter day (whether the article was true or not, I'll never know). Dino juice, comes out of the ground containing some nasty stuff, such as wax, tar, asphalt, sulpher, water, etc and as hard as refineries try to get this nasty stuff eradicated from the oil, they are not entirely successful, which is why so many synthetic oil fans keep searching for the pure PAO formula, which is free from all these impurities.
After abandoning the Syntec, I then started using Mobil 1, since once again, I had fallen for their advertising. I had toyed with the idea of using AMS Oil over the years, but the price initially kept me from doing it until I took the plunge last March. I can tell you that the AMS Oil made a world of difference to me in real performance in comparison to the Mobil 1.
AMS Oil was the first oil company in the world to produce a sythetic oil that was approved by the American Petro Institute back in approximately 1972 and Mobil came out a few years later with Mobil 1. At that time, Mobil said you could use Mobil 1 for up to 25,000 miles.
Take it from me, Shipo, I have used both products and I can attest which one is better. "Seeing is Believing," or in this case "Using is Believing." I can only assume from your posting that you have not tried AMS Oil, so how can you make the statement that Mobil 1 is the king of the hill, if you have never tried AMS Oil for yourself? An analogy would be if you only consummed white wine and never tried red wine, how would you be able to state that the white wine was the best wine in the world? An ancient Chinese master once remarked to a student that in order to try the master's brand of tea, the student had to first "empty" his cup. Your cup, Shipo, appears to be overflowing with Mobil 1, so there appears to be no room for AMS Oil anyway.
Since you like third party tests, Shipo, how about the third party tests that show Mobil 1 producing more scarring to the metal on the four bearing tests than AMS Oil? That in essence means that AMS Oil does a better job in protecting the metal of the engine and isn't that the "MAIN OBJECTIVE" why we are searching for the best oil???
Why would you want to use a 0W40 Oil anyway, if you are not operating a newer European vehicle that was designed for that weight of oil? What do your owner's manuals say about the preferred weight of the oil?
In closing, I would like for you to answer of question from me whether you are either an employee of Exxon Mobil or a stock holder. I admit that I am a former stock holder of XOM (Exxon Mobil). I swear that I own no stock in AMS Oil and I am neither a dealer nor a direct jobber for that company. I am only a preferred customer of AMS Oil (where I have to pay a annual $20.00 fee), that allows me to purchase their projects at a discount. I am interested, however, in becoming a dealer of theirs, since I believe that much in the company after "personally testing" its products against the competition.
Another so called expert on oil and Amsoil troll. Geez, you don't even know what a UOA is (much less have comparative UOAs to use to support your assertions) and yet you would have the rest of us believe that you are some kind of an expert. Sorry, not buying.
Regarding one of Amsoil’s most ridiculous "Proofs", the four-ball test (which you incorrectly identified as a "four-bearing test"), the shearing forces of this particular test are found nowhere in a modern IC engine, and as such are totally irrelevant. Shouting about it to the Moon won't change the fact that the test is still irrelevant.
After you've gone out and gotten yourself educated so that you can question validity of the Amsoil bilge water you're parroting around here, and after you've followed that up with collecting some good comparative scientific tests (UOAs will suffice) to prove your arguments, I welcome you to come back here so that we can have a good quality conversation of the subject. In the meantime, I'm putting you on "Permanent answering machine punishment."
Best Regards,
Shipo