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The product labeling I have makes absolutely NO references to "synthetic blend" etc.
So to use the per mile lubricated yardstick $1./10,000=.0001 cost per mile driven. The 4 buck rebate is just GRAVY!! This simply sets the bar at a very very high level.
Strictly from a cost point of view, the only thing that "makes it economically sense" to run a 4/5 dollar synthetic oil such as 0w20 Mobil is the 1-3 mpg or average of 2 mpg FUEL savings, trumps the more expensive up front cost of synthetic.
I clicked on your link and it failed. I checked around at the various EOM web sites and could find no reference to Superflo (an old Exxon oil?) of any sort. That said, I checked the Mobil oil site and found that their Mobil Clean 5000 oil is indeed certified for 5W-20 Hondas and yet the Data Sheet for that oil explicitly states that it is not a synthetic or a synthetic blend oil.
Best Regards,
Shipo
http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLEXSuperflo.asp
Not sure why there is not access. Sorry if it is not accessible.
It is a very very robust oil, as concluded by oil analysis. I read about the brand and product in a few places including bobistheoilguy.com. The prices and rebates seemed a bargain to me at the time.
BUT... if you are addressing me, what in the cited post was "picking on the Amsoil guy"? And why would you think the Amsoil guy is being picked on?
Amsoil like Redline, Neo, ELF, Schaffer's to name a few, offer great products. I have even said this in prior posts, if you care to look. Some folks might not like the WAY Amsoil is marketed. Just like some folks might think it the end of western civilization that Mobil One is marketed right along side the SUPERTECH brand oil at the local WALLYMART. Some folks also don't like Mobil One because it is marketed at so called "club" type outlets, right next to the 40 pack, 100% cotton, made in Pakistan, industrial rags.
Incidently in my msg #6811, if you substitute the EXAMPLE of Mobil One for Amsoil, it indeed holds true; IF one does get a 1-3 mpg or 2 mpg fuel savings WITH Amsoil.
(of course at a slightly higher price per quart. )
Picking apart the rhetoric in your posts? Not by a country mile. You've made quite a few unsubstantiated claims that do nothing to support your case. Continue writing the kind of stuff you've been writing (without backing it up) and I'll/we'll continue picking it apart. Deal?
Like it or not, the methods that Amsoil (and by extension most of its dealers) employs for its/their marketing efforts leave a very nasty taste in the mouths of many folks. Said another way, your only hope of encouraging a constructive and informative dialog here is if you drop the Snake Oil Salesman(ish) product pitching and start talking verifiable facts and science.
As a suggestion, you might want to browse the UOA and VOA database over on BITOG so you can bone up on just how good your competition is (and how optimistic a 25,000 mile OCI is for most gasoline engines). You can then follow that up with some UOAs of your own cars, say at the 5K, 10K, 15K, 20K and 25K mileage points. If Amsoil is really good for a full 25,000 mile OCI on a gasoline engine, performing those UOAs will go a long way toward backing up what you (and Amsoil by extension) have been saying. Personally my bet is that you'll find, much to your dismay, that the Amsoil is pretty much spent at or before the 15,000 mile mark. Errr, that is unless your engine(s) consume lots of oil meaning that "make-up" oil will reinforce what is already in the engine, effectively rendering the UOAs irrelevant.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So for example if I do an oil analysis at 20-45 dollars and am not happy with the Amsoil results at 25,000 miles, Amsoil will pay for the oil analysis and give me a refill of new oil needed for this vehicle product? Specifically 5 quarts. "...
I missed your response!?
Same question! Or is it the same answer? NADA!? Or perhaps the reason the Ams(oil) did not perform as well as those folks did not ask for warranty support, i.e., new oil to actually go the 25,000 miles.? So that I am not vague the oil needs really to be changed at 12,500. So if Amsoil provides the replacement oil, at that interval, indeed it is warranteed for 25,000 miles. Again this is very easy to measure with oil analysis. One EASY measure is the TBN. So for example if the TBN is 12 and at 12,500 miles 7 to 11 TBN or more is already used up, chances are it will not go to 25,000 miles. I think you can fill in the rest with warrantee information here?
Nor have I ever been able to record a fuel mileage increase that could be reliably calculated using odometer and gas pump...I would need instruments from NASA I think to get a plausible increment in increase.
It really started off that I had made the decision to switch from oem fill ExxonMobil 5w20 (aka ExxonMobil Superflo) based on app 1/2 mpg on other vehicles, AND Honda specific, other folks anecdotal experience. So for me this is an historic look back. I essentially drove no differently but just drove how I did and recorded the fuel load with no expectation of an A/B test. So I ran the oem fill CONVENTIONAL for the first 10,000 miles as per oem Honda technical data. I did the oil change. So I ran the next 10,000 miles on Mobil One 0w20 and it only SEEMED to run so called better, specifically 1-3 mpg or an average of app 2 mpg better. Then I said as such on the thread and some guy said (sort of a challenge), so I went back and took the average of three tank fuls right after new oil (oem) and three tankfuls right before the change to Mobil One. I did the same for the second 10,000 miles (@20,000 miles). I also changed the oil FILTER, again per Honda recommendation.
Essentially the data reflected the range (1-3 mpg) and the AVERAGES reflected 2 mpg BETTER. I also ran the 3rd 10,000 miles with the same results. So why did I switch from oem conventional oil ?
1. past experiences with Mobil One products 830,000 miles. It also needs to be said that one really has nothing to compare it with if ONLY synthetic oil is used (like I have)
2. wanted to go to 20,000 mile OCI's which I thought would be a stretch to disasterous with ExxonMobil Superflo.
3. Saving of app 18.00 per oil change @ 3000/120 dollars,@5000/72 @10,000/36 @ 20,000/18. (to see actual savings, chose the interval and do the math)
4. Use way less product.
5. Given my anecdotal results, the fuel savings makes me using the WAY cheaper upfront conventional oil; CHEAPER than the clearly WAY more expensive upfront synthetic oil.
So currently I get 38-42 during a normal 54 mile R/T commute in a Honda Civic. SAME commute, on a diffrent car VW Jetta TDI (which just happens to use Mobil One 5w40) I get 48-52. Make of it what you will.
i've tested synthetic oil also, on...gee I guess about 5 cars now, and switched back and forth (I'm even doing it now) and I get no fuel mileage increase that isn't explained by statistical variation.
If someone claimed on a 1/3 to 1/2 of a mile per gallon increase, I'd accept that because faster warm ups and less time on fuel enrichment mode would explain that.
You'll notice that some synthetic oil companies claim a "4% increase in fuel mileage using synthetic LUBRICANTS"...and this was after a supposed one million mile testing period....you know what that means??...that means using synthetic oils in transmissions and differentials as well as the engine.
So, on a car getting 25 mpg, if you flush your engine, trans and differential and add synthetic lubricants, you might get 26 mpg. This flush and change, would easily cost you over one hundred dollars.
So the payback on fuel mileage increase?
Not worth it IMO.
PS: The 4% claim is from AMSOIL testing, who, historically, are the oil company claiming the highest MPG increases.
In my testing, I always recorded a 2--3% increase but given my testing methods, using an odometer and a gas station pump meter, I could never say that this was accurate.
There was no tune up, definitely daily climate change, tires checked on both cars once per month, every drive had/has different traffic conditions. So what you are saying is under the conventional oil I happened to line the variables up perfectly, so I got less mpg? Or vice versa? Thanks, but I am NOT that good!!
The truth is it did not occur to me to confirm or deny the %. But 2/3% on the epa 29/38 of the Civic is 28.13-29.87 to 38.76-39.14. The Honda post will detail the variances
Indeed if cost were not the issue, how many folks would go 20,000 miles on the Honda Civic with conventional oil? I think you already know the answer. Some folks would go no more than 3k/5k, let alone 10k. So truly what would that be to? I certainly would not unless I doubled the sump capacity. But we are talking same same.
To add, would this change what I would get under the "TEST" circumstances? Probably not.
I'm running a Passat 1.8T - I'd be a fool to run any oil in that engine to 12,500 miles, let alone 25,000, given the engine's propensity to sludge.
The stuff may be the best thing out of a petrochemical plant. Doesn't matter...doesn't hit the specs I need...promised long OCI would blow my manufacturer warranty. No thanks...doesn't work for me.
http://www.totaldenmark.dk/lub/content/NT000B81F6.pdf
Above is the ELF web site, for it is a bit complicated to detail in real english.
Now some diesel oils CAN be used in gassers but except in some cases it does NOT work the other way. One gasser oil that can be used for diesel and indeed some would say that it really was made for diesel but meet gasser' specifications, ie Mobil One 0w40.
Again it really gets back to the specific specifications in owners manuals shop manuals and or web sites.
The only spec Subaru has for oil is 5W30. They even discourage synthetics. I saw a letter supposedly sent by SOA that claimed that engines get accustomed to synthetic and cannot be switched between dino and synt.
I do not think they know what they are talking about. GT takes 5qt of oil and I am using Mobil 1 5W30 and 7500 miles OCI, which is SOA normal duty interval. Dealer duty interval is 3750 aka heavy duty.
I am thinking about using the same oils for both Passat and Legacy but 5W30 is cheaper at Walmart in 5qt jugs than 0W40 available only in 1qt bottles.
Krzys
European Car Formula
Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL)
AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil is specially formulated for the lubrication needs of modern European gasoline and diesel cars and light trucks. Formulated with advanced AMSOIL synthetic base stocks, premium additives and a 5W-40 viscosity rating, AMSOIL AFL is the preferred oil for virtually all European automobiles, especially turbo charged models. It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes-Benz and the latest North American API specifications.
Larry
AMSOIL INC. of Superior, Wisconsin hereby warrants that its lubricants are fit for use according to the written recommendations of AMSOIL INC. and in applications specifying one or more of the standards set forth in the product data bulletins and product labels. AMSOIL INC. further warrants its products to be free of defective materials, design, and workmanship.
THIS WARRANTY IS SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING LIMITATIONS:
1. This warranty only applies to AMSOIL lubricants for which a separate, specific warranty is not written.
2. The warranty herein applies only to AMSOIL lubricants, which are packaged by AMSOIL INC. and sold by AMSOIL INC. or an authorized distributor.
3. The liability of AMSOIL INC. shall be limited to:
a. Replacement of the defective lubricant.
b. The cost, including labor and materials, to repair damaged equipment, or at the option of AMSOIL INC., the cost to replace damaged equipment, resulting directly from the use of AMSOIL INC. lubricants when used in the proper applications.
4. AMSOIL INC. shall not be liable for special, incidental, or consequential damages including, but not limited to, damage or loss of other property or equipment, loss of profits or revenue, cost of capital, business interruption, lodging, towing, or cost of replacement equipment. The liability of AMSOIL INC. arising out of the manufacture, sale, delivery, installation, technical directions or recommendation of any lubricant- whether in contract, tort, warranty or otherwise - shall not exceed the value of the equipment in which the product(s) were used. The remedies to the purchaser herein are exclusive.
5. In the event of a claim against AMSOIL INC., the procedure below must be completely followed.
a. Where the original warranty from the equipment manufacturer is still in effect, the customer shall file a warranty claim with the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in accordance with the OEM warranty procedure.
b. Customer shall retain failed parts for inspection by AMSOIL INC. unless given to the OEM.
c. Customer shall also, within 30 days of failure, notify AMSOIL INC. and provide the following:
(a.) An eight (8) ounce representative oil sample taken from the failed equipment and put into a clean container.
(b.) Documentation including make, model, and year of equipment, total accumulated miles and/or hours, and duty cycle or service environment.
(c.) Equipment or vehicle maintenance history documentation including miles or hours at the time of AMSOIL lubricant installation, general equipment repairs, and oil analysis results if available.
(d.) Proof of purchase for AMSOIL lubricant.
(e.) Batch number from oil container or Certificate of Analysis.
d. Mail the above sample and information to:
AMSOIL INC., Attn: Technical Services
AMSOIL Bldg.
Superior, WI 54880
e. In cases where the OEM warranty is still in effect and that warranty coverage is denied based on the use of an AMSOIL lubricant, the customer shall immediately notify AMSOIL INC. and provide a written copy of the OEM warranty denial.
f. AMSOIL INC. may, at its option, notify its insurance carrier of the claim.
g. AMSOIL INC. or its insurance carrier may conduct an investigation that includes, but is not limited to, an inspection of the failed parts, a review of the operating conditions, and a thorough review of the information requested above. The customer agrees to cooperate with such investigation.
h. If AMSOIL INC. or its insurance carrier pays a claim, an attempt may be made to recover amounts paid from the OEM. If this occurs, the customer may be asked to provide further information pertaining to the failure and to cooperate with AMSOIL INC. or its insurer in the recovery process.
THE WARRANTY MAY NOT BE EXTENDED TO COVER:
1. AMSOIL lubricants used in mechanically deficient equipment as a result of abnormal operation; negligence; abuse; damage from casualty, shipment or accident; or equipment modification done without written authorization from the OEM.
2. AMSOIL lubricants that have been used for the purposes of racing or in applications where the OEM required lubricant standards do not match those stated by AMSOIL INC. without the written approval from AMSOIL INC.
3. AMSOIL lubricants that have been contaminated after leaving the AMSOIL INC. premises due to improper handling, storage or through equipment deficiencies in which an AMSOIL lubricant has been installed.
4. AMSOIL lubricants which have been packaged, regardless of container, by anyone other than AMSOIL INC. or an AMSOIL authorized packager.
5. Any allegedly defective AMSOIL lubricant for which a reasonable sample has not been preserved.
6. Failure of equipment when AMSOIL lubricants are not used in strict accordance with either the written recommendations of AMSOIL INC. or the OEM for warranty coverage.
7. AMSOIL lubricants that have been used in conjunction with any other product or additive that has not been authorized for use by AMSOIL INC.
8. Failure of equipment due to a pre-existing condition that is unrelated to the use of AMSOIL.
9. Repair or replacement of equipment because of normal wear.
AMSOIL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REJECT A WARRANTY CLAIM FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:
1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance, and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.
2. AMSOIL INC. was not notified within 30 days from the date of failure.
3. Claim information is insufficient.
4. Parts inspected do not substantiate a claim or indicate failure.
5. Parts requested were not sent or are unavailable for inspection.
6. Oil sample was not provided.
7. Failure of the customer to follow the written procedure herein.
8. Customer refused to cooperate with the investigation.
9. Failure was the result of an OEM defect.
This warranty shall be governed, interpreted and construed by, and in accordance with, the laws of the State of Wisconsin.
AMSOIL INC. IS THE SOLE AUTHOR OF THIS POLICY AND MAKES NO OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED UNLESS A SEPARATE, SPECIFIC WARRANTY HAS BEEN WRITTEN.
SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS OR EXCLUSIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS, WHICH VARY FROM STATE TO STATE.
Contacts:
AMSOIL INC.
AMSOIL Bldg.
Superior, WI 54880
715-392-7101, Fax 715-392-3097
Revised April 8th, 2003
Supercedes all previous versions
Download the AMSOIL Warra
"5. Given my anecdotal results, the fuel savings makes me using the WAY cheaper upfront conventional oil; CHEAPER than the clearly WAY more expensive upfront synthetic oil"
change to:
5. Given my anecdotal results, the fuel savings makes me using the WAY cheaper upfront conventional oil; MORE expensive than the clearly WAY more expensive upfront synthetic oil.
Cheaper to use synthetic on fuel savings of avg of 2 mpg and cost/effort of more frequent oil changes.
Compliance with the terms of the AMSOIL warranty would cost more than the oil analysis and replacement oils. Let's see, after I pass it through legal counsel, I would be spending literally thousands to warranty less than $50. WOW. I am not sure how most folks see it but it appears to be a win/lose situation. If I go to my Mobil One retailer and said I was unhappy, they'd asked for the receipt, point me to the Mobil One rack and say have at the numba ya bought. Not too much compliance and legalese here. Not bad for NOT having a warranty? Thanks for the posting. It did fully answer the question/s.
The liability of AMSOIL INC. shall be limited to:
a. Replacement of the defective lubricant.
b. The cost, including labor and materials, to repair damaged equipment, or at the option of AMSOIL INC., the cost to replace damaged equipment, resulting directly from the use of AMSOIL INC. lubricants when used in the proper applications.
Because if you are.... that is NOT what you cited is saying!!?? (Not to complicate further, a complex boiler plate)
But to get to the specific, if I went to 25,000 miles (as per warranty and the TBN and or other oil analysis indicators were exhausted you could skip the compliance procedure and get reimbursement for oil analysis, product replacement and shipping? My take is NO.
So if I wanted to continued to USE Amsoil and wanted to avoid the oil depletion and took an oil analysis at 12500 and it went beyond half of the 12 TBN (6 or above consumed) Amsoil would pay for oil analysis and product replacement for the next 12500 miles?Again my take is NO.
If Wally world is Walmart then you need to visit one and check Mobil 1 0W40. There should be some available.
The worst case scenario is that the only sign left is price label where bottles are supposed to be but they will be back.
If your claims about Euro spec oil availability are similar to your AMSOIL claims...
"It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers"
Krzys
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, my part of the picking was mainly due to the silly way in which the product is sold. That and the posting of annoying long-winded sales pitches. How much profit do the amsoil guys make on each quart of that stuff, anyway? Must be a lot given the religious fervor with which it is promoted.
If I have a car under manufacturer's warranty, I'd rather just have the dealer do the oil changes and avoid getting into a three way legal battle, should there be any supposedly oil related problems with the car.
If the car is not under warranty, it is a pretty remote possibility that anyone would get any benefit from that warranty. I would imagine circumstances where an engine is damaged due to the properties of any oil used are extremely rare (nonexistent?), assuming the oil meets the vehicle manufacurer's specs and is changed at appropriate intervals.
..."I would imagine circumstances where an engine is damaged due to the properties of any oil used are extremely rare (nonexistent?), "...
The part that is NOT remote is parenthetically NOT guaranteed, (ie TBN of 12 with an oil analysis of over 6 at 12,500 miles) The cost of compliance to Amsoil warranty FAR exceeds the cost of the oil analysis and product replacement and shipping, if indeed it is EVER adjudicated in favor of the one asking for fulfillment. (aka plaintiff)
I think I'll start selling AMSAIR...with a guarantee to pay for any damage cause to your tires or vehicle by the use of AMSAIR.
True, and like many other manufacturers, Amsoil doesn't even have a single oil that is certified to meet the various European specifications, not one.
"...and certainly none on the shelf at Wally World."
Bzzzt! I'm sorry, that is incorrect. I've bought Mobil 1 0W-40 at Walmart several times and know for a fact that it is currently stocked at all of my local Walmarts. FWIW, I am more inclined to shop at AutoZone, and not only do they carry Mobil 1 0W-40, they stock German made Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (which is certified to meet virtually all European oil specifications) too.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Geez, you burn more bandwidth and say less than almost anybody else here. If you have something intelligent and thoughtful to say, please say it, don't continue posting the annoying Amsoil marketing bilge ad-nauseum. :P
At this point it seems that you have no actual interest in learning the real facts Amsoil and their top competitors, which is a shame. To me at least, your refusal to do a little studying means that your beliefs are more religious than they are factually and scientifically based. I for one have very little tolerance for zealots and will continue to take shots at the stuff you post UNTIL you do a little research of your own and say something original. Then and only then will an intelligent dialog be possible.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Was that you who stated that you are not picking on the AMSOIL guy personally? Hum....
I'll post as a zealot and what you desire has no effect on me.
I believe in AMSOIL and am passionate about it. You should be passionate about something besides picking on me.
Customer experience and ASTM testing data trumps your kindergarden wishy washy posts anytime. But you are entertaining.
What part of "AMSOIL warrants it's oil for 25,000 miles or one year in normal service and will replace the oil and repair the engine" do you not understand?
Yes I do.
AMSOIL is sold in some stores, but not at big box stores. You can find it at independent auto parts, hardware, repair shops and independent gas stations. But it is mostly through independent dealers and you can order it online, the reason is when Mr. Amatuzio started with independent dealers/distributors and he promised them that he would always protect them and not sell them out and he has been a man of his word since 1972.
I'm not asking about recommendations - I'm asking for certifications.
Does AMSoil have API certification?
Does it have ACEA certification?
Does it have any VW specification certs?
Also I asked the question directly in past posts. A yes, no and/or the details would be good. You posted the warranty a tractor trailer rig could literally drive through?
True, and like many other manufacturers, Amsoil doesn't even have a single oil that is certified to meet the various European specifications, not one.
"...and certainly none on the shelf at Wally World."
Bzzzt! I'm sorry, that is incorrect. I've bought Mobil 1 0W-40 at Walmart several times and know for a fact that it is currently stocked at all of my local Walmarts. FWIW, I am more inclined to shop at AutoZone, and not only do they carry Mobil 1 0W-40, they stock German made Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (which is certified to meet virtually all European oil specifications) too.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Sorry Shipo,
The 0w-40 Mobil 1 does not meet the the latest VW spec, 505.01.
Sorry Again Here is AMSOILs' Qualifications:
API SM/CF
ACEA C3-04
ACEA A3/B3-04
ACEA A3/B4-04
BMW LL-04
Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51
Porsche
Saab
Volvo
Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01
DaimlerChrysler MS-10725
Another one bites the dust???
Plus the following:
API SM/CF
ACEA C3-04
ACEA A3/B3-04
ACEA A3/B4-04
BMW LL-04
Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51
Porsche
Saab
Volvo
Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01
DaimlerChrysler MS-10725
On the subject of API Certification:
All AMSOIL street car and truck oil is API certified.
Because if you are.... that is NOT what you cited is saying!!?? (Not to complicate further, a complex boiler plate)
But to get to the specific, if I went to 25,000 miles (as per warranty and the TBN and or other oil analysis indicators were exhausted you could skip the compliance procedure and get reimbursement for oil analysis, product replacement and shipping? My take is NO.
So if I wanted to continued to USE Amsoil and wanted to avoid the oil depletion and took an oil analysis at 12500 and it went beyond half of the 12 TBN (6 or above consumed) Amsoil would pay for oil analysis and product replacement for the next 12500 miles?Again my take is NO.
Your Take???????
I thought that maybe I had posted the Japanese version of the warranty, but no I checked and it's in English.
Perhaps some of it didn't make it on the paste, maybe you are having computer problems, it's extremely easy to understand even for a low IQ guy like me.
Here is the full and total limited warranty at
http://www.25000mileoil.com/page6.html
AMSOIL bends over backwards to keep their customers happy, their major customer source is from customers giving referrals, does this not make logic or are you just consumed with winning an argument?
Yes, my UNDERSTANDING after reading the Amsoil warranty.
Japanese english etc. , I am sure language does not grant any special dispensation.
So being as how I asked very simple straight up questions, with no direct answers, and what I do get is another warranty site, this time with probably even more boiler plate, site allows no click navigation, click on any topic and all it does is refresh or put you back to the same starting point. All this is WAY too much warning for my consumer dollars. They are all NEW reasons NOT to buy. Thanks for the real world of Corp Amsoil. Indeed it was a surprise enlightenment. This doesn't change my own impressions that Amsoil does make quality products, however.
So if I went to my independent parts house/ dealer and asked the same questions and THEY stood behind Amsoil products that would remove those reasons.