Midsize Sedans 2.0

pensfan83 · July 2017

The dealer where I test drove the Fusion has one in stock, MSRP is $36,995 though the site has that crossed out so it's anyone's guess what the ADM might be.

http://www.kennyrossfordsouth.com/new/Ford/2017-Ford-Focus-e3e420110a0e0a17597ca3b634bc08b4.htm

pensfan83 · July 2017

This dealer has two of them, both listed below MSRP on their website.

MSRP $42,765, Listed Price $39,381
http://www.jimshorkeyford.com/new/Ford/2017-Ford-Focus+RS-97c56fc30a0e0a1709e1ddd3894f16b2.htm?searchDepth=1:2

sda · July 2017

roadburner said:

akirby said:

sda said:

I am in the process of teaching my daughter how to drive. Knowing your expertise about driving I would be very appreciative if you describe how to properly adjust mirrors.
You can google the exact instructions but basically you lean your head to the left so that it's next to the window and adjust the left side mirror until you can barely see the side of the car. Lean to the right the same distance and adjust the right mirror the same way.

It points the mirrors out more so you can see more traffic to the side.

The end result is that as a car leaves your center rear view mirror it appears in your side mirror and when it leaves your side mirror it enters your peripheral vision.
Exactly.

Thanks guys, just as I was taught.

roadburner · July 2017

My nearest Ford dealer has five RS in stock; all advertised at MSRP- from $37,890 to $47,450. Initially they weren't accepting A Plan or X Plan, but that may have changed. I did a bit of research and as much as I like the car I'd be hesitant- teething issues, voided warranties for track use, and the fact that my local dealer won't hire techs with opposable thumbs all combine to keep me on the sidelines.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2017

Thanks for the research on Ford Focus RS prices, roadburner. The range is too high for my liking from top to bottom.

andres3 · July 2017

roadburner said:
My nearest Ford dealer has five RS in stock; all advertised at MSRP- from $37,890 to $47,450. Initially they weren't accepting A Plan or X Plan, but that may have changed. I did a bit of research and as much as I like the car I'd be hesitant- teething issues, voided warranties for track use, and the fact that my local dealer won't hire techs with opposable thumbs all combine to keep me on the sidelines.

Of all those things the most hideous and absurd is voided warranties for track use. If they are going to void warranties, why offer them at all? Also, why sell anything over 150 HP? I have a feeling it isn't "track" use per say, but just an excuse they have used among other things to avoid paying for warranty claims. Then again, maybe it is right in the fine print!

I do know my Audi dealer started just recnetly a new policy on loaner vehicles that included pages of fine print, one of which is "no driver training use" (HPDE = Driver Training use). Geico used to say no high speed racing or high speed driving on a track. (Always thought HPDE's weren't really all that high speed; very subjective). Now they say no driving on a track primarily designed for high performance driving. That his certainly more bulletproof of an exclusion.

akirby · July 2017

It's not a scheme to avoid warranty repairs. It's a safeguard against folks who thrash and abuse their vehicle on the track way beyond the design limits and then want Ford to fix it under warranty.

Almost every mfr has this type of disclaimer.

"However, a Ford representative sent us this clarification: "Ford vehicles such as Mustang, GT350, Focus RS, Focus & Fiesta ST and Raptor are designed for spirited driving and will be covered by warranty if the vehicle is operated within the limits and guidelines outlined in the vehicle's owner's guide and warranty manual, including when the vehicle is driven in 'track mode,' a feature that is contained on some vehicles, if it is driven on a track in a manner that is consistent with the guidelines. Ford does not recommend racing these vehicles in timed competitions or sanctioned race events, as they are designed and built to be driven as delivered from the factory, and the vehicle warranty does not cover mechanical failure or damage caused when a vehicle is used for racing."

andres3 · July 2017

akirby said:
It's not a scheme to avoid warranty repairs. It's a safeguard against folks who thrash and abuse their vehicle on the track way beyond the design limits and then want Ford to fix it under warranty.

Almost every mfr has this type of disclaimer.

"However, a Ford representative sent us this clarification: "Ford vehicles such as Mustang, GT350, Focus RS, Focus & Fiesta ST and Raptor are designed for spirited driving and will be covered by warranty if the vehicle is operated within the limits and guidelines outlined in the vehicle's owner's guide and warranty manual, including when the vehicle is driven in 'track mode,' a feature that is contained on some vehicles, if it is driven on a track in a manner that is consistent with the guidelines. Ford does not recommend racing these vehicles in timed competitions or sanctioned race events, as they are designed and built to be driven as delivered from the factory, and the vehicle warranty does not cover mechanical failure or damage caused when a vehicle is used for racing."

Ahhh, OK, so racing would not include HPDE weekend events. Those are driver training; not racing. So it isn't track use per say that is banned. Seems like a fair policy. Racing would be more like "commercial use." Of course, I've known companies that ignore their own written rules and have imbeciles misinterpret the companies own rules. Happened to me with American Airlines on checked baggage weight and size limits and fees.

roadburner · July 2017

Except that a lot of dealers haven't got the memo; I know when I was(stupidly) considering a Fiesta ST the word on the forums was to never let a dealer even suspect that you took the car to an HPDE- because every warranty claim thereafter would be denied due to "abuse." And as mentioned previously, the Blue Oval dealers in my neck of the woods are beyond incompetent...

andres3 · July 2017

Those dealers should stick to selling Buick's and Ford Five Hundreds.

imidazol97 · July 2017

andres3 said:
Those dealers should stick to selling Buick's and Ford Five Hundreds.

I've heard a lot of folks downgrading Buicks, often those who really didn't drive one before it had been ragged out and poorly maintained. But equating them with Ford Five Hundred's is too much. LOL

andres3 · July 2017

imidazol97 said:

andres3 said:
Those dealers should stick to selling Buick's and Ford Five Hundreds.
I've heard a lot of folks downgrading Buicks, often those who really didn't drive one before it had been ragged out and poorly maintained. But equating them with Ford Five Hundred's is too much. LOL

Admittedly the only Buick I drove was a Rental Le Sabre old man car. I think I got my first grey hair popped out while driving it.

That was enough for me to equate Buick with "old, soft, living room couch, floaty, and big." The Ford Five Hundred was big too!

suydam · July 2017

Wow. I think you're a bit behind the times. Buick has changed a lot since the LeSabre days. I think they stopped making them more than 10 years ago.

andres3 · July 2017

suydam said:
Wow. I think you're a bit behind the times. Buick has changed a lot since the LeSabre days. I think they stopped making them more than 10 years ago.

Yes, I've seen the commercials that pretty much are the same as the old theme; "This isn't your Father's Buick Anymore!"

Didn't they just rename the LeSabre the Lacrosse

Cavalier = Cobalt = Cruze

GM has a thing for sticking with the same first letter I think.

At least Chrysler is more creative:

Neon = Caliber = Dart

suydam · July 2017

If you saw my itty bitty Encore, or the technology in the Volt, you'd realize GM is actually out in front of the others. The Encore was actually one of the very first subcompact CUVs.

akirby · July 2017

Volt technology? You mean the technology invented for locomotives in the 1950s - internal combustion engine turns a generator which charges batteries which power electric motors?

A regular plug-in hybrid with a bigger battery pack is more efficient. But not enough people want or need (or are willing to pay for) a 40+ mile range on a PHEV which is why Volt sales have never been great even though it has almost no direct competition.

Just sayin........

imidazol97 · July 2017

benjaminh · August 2017

Top vehicles sales for July

Rav4 41,803 +31%

Civic 36,683 +11%

Camry 33,827 -1%

Rogue 32,425 -2%

CR-V 31,761 -12%

Accord 30,903 -3%

Escape 27,716 +5%

Corolla 26,600 -16%

Equinox 23,534 +7%

Altima 22,314 -11%

Explorer 21,529 +12%

benjaminh · August 2017

midsize sales for July from tsx at vtec.net

Camry 33,827 +3.1%

Accord 30,903 +.6%

Altima 22,314 -10.6%

Fusion 13,886 -42.2%

Sonata 10,648

Malibu 10,549 -10.8%

Optima 7,933

Passat 5,143 -21.5%

Legacy 3,785 -27.4%

Mazda6 3,482 -19.8%

Fusion is dropping like a rock.

benjaminh · August 2017

For the first 7 months of 2017, Civic is selling more than Camry. Will it become the new bestselling car in America?

Civic YTD: 212,446

Camry YTD: 210,724

benjaminh · August 2017

compact/midsize sales in July from tsx at vtec

Civic 36,683 +15.8%

Corolla 28,333 -11.6%

Sentra 18,724 +1%

Focus 16,505 +18.1%

Elantra 13,287

Cruze 12,278 -10.5%

Forte 12,022

Jetta 11,054 -3.5%

Impreza 7,777 +49.6%

Mazda3 7,407 -8.6%

andres3 · August 2017

Surprising to me that Nissan does so well in both categories, or is it 75% fleet sales?

Focus had a good month!

Is Mazda worried "sky active" isn't getting it done! Time for more zoom zoom.

akirby · August 2017

Nissan has dramatically increased its rental fleet sales the last couple of years.

berri · August 2017

They must be incentivizing the heck out of the RAV-4. I think that car really needs an updating and I believe that happens in a year or so. Some awful good deals on Camry to make room for the all new 17's. The Civic has grown, so it is close to some of the next size vehicles. Maybe the full size market buyers either move up to a crossover or save a few bucks buying a Civic.

stickguy · August 2017

Good point about the midsize models. Get squeezed from below, and people who need big are bailing for wagons

ab348 · August 2017

According to TTAC, Toyota sold almost 2600 new 2018 Camrys in July, all of them sourced from Japan. I have yet to see my first.

explorerx4 · August 2017

69K F series and 46k Silverado sales don't count as vehicles?

benjaminh · August 2017

explorerx4 said:
69K F series and 46k Silverado sales don't count as vehicles?

Trucks are maybe a different category, but they count!

Ford F - Series PU 69,467 + 5.8
Chevrolet Silverado PU 45,966 -15.1
Toyota RAV4 41,804 31.1
Dodge Ram PU 39,708 -0.3
Honda Civic 36,683 11.3
Toyota Camry 33,827 -0.9

explorerx4 · August 2017

Toyota may have had their best month ever. #1 with 222K, GM 2nd with 202k, Ford 3rd 200k.

stickguy · August 2017

on the to do list for tomorrow is wandering up to the Toyota dealer to scope out a Camry in the flesh. If I find one, will report in on it

[Deleted User] · August 2017

benjaminh said:
Right now I think most reviewers say that for the entry-level models of midsize sedans that the Mazda6 probably has the best handling, and the Accord is maybe 2nd place. Camry is about dead-last. But in about a week or so when the 2018 Camry hits the dealer lots it's about to go from last to maybe tied for first with the Mazda6—or at least equal to the Accord.

It (2018 Camry) LOOKS fantastic. Can it handle? Or will it retain rental lot dynamics under a gorgeous body like mine was in 2012. I think these cars have heavy-duty bushings and bearings to retain what Toyota and Kia owners care about most--and what I CARED ABOUT MOST -durability. Durability A+ Carving a mountain corner? D+......and only because the engine OCCASIONALLY reminds me where the wheels are. Sucks to have power and not be able to have fun with it. Yes my car has some power...just not down low. And not too much for a car that can't tell me where all the wheels are. Ever.

[Deleted User] · August 2017

benjaminh said:
By my count the top-levels of the Accord have gone from having a c. 4 level dash for instruments and controls in the center, to having a c. 2 level dash. Overall, it seems like a big improvement. And after being criticized for taking out the volume knob entirely in 2016, Honda has now almost gone "knob-crazy" with 5 knobs. It's almost like in Disney's 101 Dalmatians, when Jasper says, "I've got the right knob for this job!"

Ben, looking at it objectively, I think the new Accord dash has exactly the right amount of knobs. 2 for the radio, and 3 for the A/C or climate controls if you prefer. I think the 6th knob should sprout from the transmission tunnel. My sport shift is the ONLY fun part of my car. From 50 to 90 she is fun...in a straight line. Oh, the 2018 Accord dash looks curiously like the Mazda6 and most 3 series BMW's. I have not seen a lot of "driver first" oriented dash set-ups. I do like and continue to enjoy that setup in my car 5 years later. If anything can be said about me is that: good-or-bad; I have be as honest about my car as possible for 5 years straight (as or December 23rd).

benjaminh · August 2017

cski: How many miles now on your Optima? Have you replaces the tires, or not yet? What did you originally pay for it, and what was the msrp?

stickguy · August 2017

so, checked out some 2018s today. First stopped at Hyundai, and sat in a new Sonata (limited Ultra, so comparable to my current car). Was nice enough, but the changes (particularly inside) were not significant enough to make it feel like a new car. A bit nicer than mine probably, but really very similar. One oddity (maybe because of the issues they had with some blowing off!) was replacing the Pano roof with a normal moonroof. Not really a big deal, but still felt like a takeaway. Did not drive, but I imagine it is pretty much the same.

if I was to get a replacement, it would have to be the 2.0T turbo model. But pretty sure I will be going a different direction. Not a bad car, but I want a change.

Next, stopped and scoped out a new Camry. They had an XLE and a couple of SEs. I sat in the 4 cyl XLE. Included some options (including a pano roof), MSRP was ~$31K (comparable to the Sonata). Seemed nice. Definitely a fully new design in and out. Interior is much different. Not sure I liked the heavy dash on the passenger side (it really is "cockpitty" and intrudes) or the overall dash styling, but it was comfortable and well equipped. side and rear styling is sharp. Front end, well, something to be desired, and probably looks better in a darker color. I will take the wife back at some point to look at it, and probably take one for a drive, but I doubt I end up with one. Daughter might not mind one next year if they are going cheap!

I really want to see the new Accord. They need to hurry up and get those on the ground.

berri · August 2017

I don't think the '18 Accord is going to be out for a few months unfortunately.

stickguy · August 2017

I am hoping September, but could easily be October. Good thing is, I am not in a hurry. Though if I found a deal too good to pass up now (probably should have talked numbers about the 2017 TLX before they were all gone) I would consider trading in the Sonata to make it go away a few months early.

benjaminh · August 2017

A bit ot, I know, but the compact to midsize luxury market was tough for most in July....Lexus ES is now the bestselling midsize luxury car by far. BMW 3 series off 40%, ATS down 63% (is that model being cut?).

ES 6,641 +25.6%

CClass 4,899 -22.3%

3series 4,084 -39.9%

A4 2,652 +1.5%

Q50 2,596 -7.5%

TLX 2,495 -16.9%

IS 2,443 -26.6%

MKZ 2,399 -19.2%

LaCrosse 1,028 -56.4%

S60 904 -51.5%

ATS 777 -63.3%

stickguy · August 2017

I bet the comparable CUV model in each lineup did a lit better

benjaminh · August 2017

stickguy said:
I am hoping September, but could easily be October. Good thing is, I am not in a hurry. Though if I found a deal too good to pass up now (probably should have talked numbers about the 2017 TLX before they were all gone) I would consider trading in the Sonata to make it go away a few months early.

Even though it would have been a good deal on a good car, my guess is that you were wise to pass up the 2017 TLX. For one, the older TLXs didn't have AndroidAuto/AppleCarPlay. As I've mentioned several times here, I think this is a very useful feature, and should be considered for every new car buyer. Just as a refresher, previously in my cars programming the navi when you were going someplace new was somewhat annoying and even time-consuming. With Android Auto you press the mic icon, say, "Petsmart" or whatever, and it comes right up. I think your daughter might want to consider this for her car as well. Many cars do have it now, but I don't think VWs do.

On Honda's website it says vaguely that the new Accord will arrive in "Fall." My guess is that it'll be October. If it was next month, I think we'd already have details on trim levels, msrps, etc.

Given that I felt that my 2016 Accord was fairly state-of-the-art for midsize cars when I got it a little more than a year ago, I'm impressed with how many changes there are going to be with the 2018 Accord. Most of these changes are for the better, but a few are not imho.

I like the new styling of the 2018 Accord, and have warmed up to the "blunt front" and "coupe-like" back. But it still seems like rear visibility behind the driver has been compromised for this. I would like to sit in one to see for myself. Blind spot monitoring will be important imho.

So, that's one possible big minus for me for the 2018 Accord, while two other small minuses are that they are eliminating at least two things: no CD player for the 2018 Accord, as far as I can see, and no side view camera "LaneWatch." But, it's true that I rarely use my CD player on my 2016 Accord now, preferring XM, FM, or audio books through AndroidAuto.

Other changes for the 2018 Accord compared to my 2016 Accord all seem positive. Overall, the new dash design seems more elegant and more ergonomically efficient. I like the return of the knobs. Also, although I didn't have a problem with Honda's controversial two-screen set up, probably one screen will end up being better (and more cost efficient for Honda. My 2016 Accord seems plenty fast, and is significantly more powerful and faster than my 2008 Accord, but the 2018 Accords with standard turbo power should be faster even with the 1.5. I'm also guessing we'll have a 10% improvement in mpg over the current Accord, to 33 mpg combined. This will mean that a 2018 Accord is going to get 2 more mpg than a 2012 Civic, which is a nice improvement.

benjaminh · August 2017

My guess is a full-loaded 2018 Accord is going to compare pretty well to a 2018 Audi A6—for about half the cost with the same options.

But, because of the rear visibility issue, when it comes time to replace my wife's 2013 Accord, we will probably test drive a Camry. But right now it seems like her Accord has plenty of life in it. In fact, we're covered by the extended HondaCare warranty we got till Feb. of 2021. Maybe we'll just keep it till then. We finish paying it off Feb. of 2018. We had a big downpayment, and so the monthly on it was only $290, but still it'll be nice to be free of that. Given that our daughter just adopted a stray kitten she found, we'll need to put some of that toward cat food, litter, and vet bills.

benjaminh · August 2017

Another big change with the 2018 Accord compared to my 2016 is the standard next generation HondaSensing. I feel very mixed about that, since feel like in almost all situations I want to drive and brake myself. But perhaps it's useful. Maybe I need to try it. And the smart cruise control that comes with it sounds very nice.

stickguy · August 2017

I suspect the visibility will be fine, certainly comparable to other midsize cars. I sat in a Camry yesterday, and it had the same design limitations. Agreed that BLIS is a must have. I never liked lanewatch anyway. And never use CDs. So won't miss that. From the pictures, pretty sure I will like the accord interior a lot more than the Camry.

October certainly seems logical. Clear out some 17s. The Toyota salesman said they have at least 100 2017 Camry left. Must be deals to be had there.

One flaw with CarPlay (we have iPhones). Stuck with apple maps, instead of google maps. My daughter has a pathological hate of apple maps, saying it has constantly done weird things and gotten people lost. But better than nothing.

benjaminh · August 2017

Yeah, Google maps are state of the art as far as I can tell. That company has literally thrown billions of dollars into making its maps and navi good. But, as you say, Apple maps are better than nothing. We have apple computers for home and work, but google phones with project fi. My son the computer programmer convinced us that these phones are in some ways better than iphones, and at about half the cost. But I think most people who have iphones just can't switch.

Michaell · August 2017

@benjaminh - the 2016 Jetta SE I leased a year ago is equipped with CarPlay.

benjaminh · August 2017

Michaell said:
@benjaminh - the 2016 Jetta SE I leased a year ago is equipped with CarPlay.

Nice. I didn't know VW was doing its cars with that now, or I'd forgotten. Thanks. Jetta then is probably about the least expensive car available with that feature.

Michaell · August 2017

benjaminh said:

Michaell said:
@benjaminh - the 2016 Jetta SE I leased a year ago is equipped with CarPlay.
Nice. I didn't know VW was doing its cars with that now, or I'd forgotten. Thanks. Jetta then is probably about the least expensive car available with that feature.

Was certainly one of the reasons why I chose it. Nice functionality, even if I have to settle for Apple Maps.

benjaminh · August 2017

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

Michaell said:
@benjaminh - the 2016 Jetta SE I leased a year ago is equipped with CarPlay.
Nice. I didn't know VW was doing its cars with that now, or I'd forgotten. Thanks. Jetta then is probably about the least expensive car available with that feature.
Was certainly one of the reasons why I chose it. Nice functionality, even if I have to settle for Apple Maps.

Are apple maps really that bad?? Doesn't seem possible. They must be almost as good as google's, right?

benjaminh · August 2017

Well, this may be a silly comparison, but I think the 2018 Accord with the new 2.0 turbo will probably be faster than an Audi A6 2.0 turbo. Why? The A6 FWD weighs about 3900 pounds, while a full loaded 2018 Accord Touring will probably weigh about 3400 pounds. That 500 pound difference, given that the engines in both make about 250 hp and very similar amounts of torque, should mean that the Accord is faster. We'll see. The new Accord 2.0 will also have a 10-speed transmission, while the Audi has an 8-speed. Don't know if that will make a difference, but maybe a little in acceleration. But it should make a difference in mpg, along with that already mentioned difference in weight.

stickguy · August 2017

Accord might be even lighter. My guess though is Audi understates HP, and Quattro helps get off the line. But should certainly be a quick car (the accord). Can't wait to try one.

benjaminh · August 2017

Continuing on with my out-of-class comparison with the A6

Audi A6 length 194.2 inches, width 73.8, height 57.8, base curb weight FWD 3803, interior volume 97.2 cubic feet, 14.1 trunk, 19.8 gallon gas tank, 28 mpg combined, msrp with a few options. c. $56,000 (this is the A6 with the lowest msrp in my area).

2018 Accord Touring 192.1, 73.2, 57.1, curb weight for the Touring 2.0 c. 3450? 102.7 cu foot interior, 16.7, trunk, 14.8 gas tank, c. 29 mpg combined, msrp c. $36,000.

Yeah, they are different classes of car. I know. But close in some areas. I'm sure the Audi is nicer in a few areas, but not 20k nicer. And I think the Accord is likely to be more reliable out of warranty. Still, far short of the double that I was first guessing. And the weight difference isn't quite as big as I was guessing. It's closer to 350 pounds rather than 500. The 2018 Accord is going to have c. 40.4" rear leg room, compared to 37.4 for the A6. That's a significant difference for those rear seat people. The A6 will certainly be comfortable, but if the numbers are to be believed the new Accord is going to seem almost like a Lincoln Continental in the back seat.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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