Midsize Sedans 2.0

nyccarguy · July 2020

I saw a few White Acura ILX A-Specs on the road today. Very sharp.

benjaminh · July 2020

Yeah, the ILX is nice looking, and it's certainly a good deal. The base model is $26k, which is less than some economy cars. A fully loaded ILX A-spec ILX has an msrp of about $31k. The ILX is sort of like a luxury Civic Si with an 8-speed DCT. Still, even with all of its updates it's been around a long time, and so next year's all-new ILX, or whatever it's going to be called, can't come too soon.

andres3 · July 2020

benjaminh said:
Here's a photo of the wheel and tire on the Accord Touring 2.0.

Huge wheel, tiny rotors.

stickguy · July 2020

Needs more sidewall. One reason to get the EXL with 17’s

backy · December 2020

Wow, I see I'm not the only person who hasn't been on Edmunds lately!

It's been a year since I leased my 2020 Forte LXS. (Yeah, technically not a mid-sized car but I think the EPA considers it mid-sized.) Taking it in for an oil change tomorrow even thought it has only 5000 miles on it--not a bad idea to change the oil at least every 6 months, plus I got a coupon from a Kia dealer for oil/filter/tire rotation/inspections/wash for $40, and I can check out the new Seltos as a possible replacement for my wife's CX-7 in a year or two.

There's a voluntary recall on the "IVT" (CVT) for a software update and potentially replacement of the transmission, but I think I'm going to pass on it. There's no hint of trouble from the transmission, the car drives great, and it consistently gets around 50 mpg on highway trips (took 3 short trips this summer & fall) and around 40 in suburban driving, which isn't too shabby considering the EPA overall mpg is 33 and highway is 40. That's based on the gas tank; the trip computer reads a little higher than those numbers. As they say, if it ain't broke...

I learned a trick during my first long trip (~300 miles total) this summer. When I activated the cruise control, the RPMs would jump up 400-500, so instead of cruising at 1800-2000 RPMs it was well over that. But just for grins I decided to use the manumatic shift option, and I saw that the default is "6" when cruising at 65-70 on the highway. But I found out I can upshift two clicks beyond that, so the readout shows "8" (highest it goes). And the RPMs dropped down around 1800! And that gives me the ~50 mpg on the highway even with cruise on. I have to downshift going up hills, but it's kinda fun shifting for myself again.

I'm pretty sure I'll keep this car when the 2-year lease is up next December. The way that used car prices are soaring, my buyout is a great deal, about $11,500 + tax, which is a LOT lower than the price of a barely-used Forte on the lots, even a 2019 model. Until then I'm enjoying my $99 payments.

Sandman6472 · December 2020

Great write-up about your Forte. $99/month is a killer deal and the buyout is really a no-brainer to keep it. I've maybe gone 4K this past year, probably closer to 3500 instead of the 13K I used to drive. Had to fix a hard to find oil leak and then an axle boot but all seems quiet now so with just under 66K on the clock, the Golf will stay in our fleet until something major goes wrong and I just say enough. Part of me wants to go back to "cheap to keep" which means either Japanese or Korean so we'll just have to see where thins end up.
The Forte was supposed to be in our garage right now as the wife had finally decided to buy one back at the end of 2014 until I said to go check out the new Audi A3 at the Audi store right next door to our development. And the rest is history...she ought the A3 and until now, been a great flawless vehicle. Now, the dreaded oil leak on the garage floor that keeps coming back. So, January 11th, it's going to our new mechanic to be diagnosed/fixed. First issue in over 60K miles except needed to add some oil twice. Not bad I'd say!

tjc78 · December 2020

What was the amount due at signing on the $99 Forte?

backy · January 2021

tjc78 said:
What was the amount due at signing on the $99 Forte?

About $1,800, including first payment, tax (in MN you have to pay sales tax on the lease payments up front), title, license, acquisition fee, and what I'd call a buy-down on the residual, but they didn't call it that (see below). Factoring in a drop in my auto insurance rate (funny that a 2020 Forte would be less than a 2011, maybe for the better safety) and gas savings, it was a deal I couldn't resist. And no more worries about my old Forte breaking.

Funny story on the lease... when I was sitting at the salesman's desk a year ago, he was gone for awhile so I ran the numbers on the deal on my phone calculator--and they didn't add up to what they said they should be. The tax seemed WAY too high. So I checked the state tax web site and confirmed my number, and when the salesman returned I asked him if he could walk through the numbers for me. He seemed pissed that I asked for that, so I said no problem, I'll ask the finance manager when I talk with him. So I did. He initially said that their calculations were correct, they always did them that way etc., but I persisted that the tax seemed out of whack so he went into his online deal calculator and, sure enough, my figure for tax was correct. He then said that there's an additional "fee" in there that's not tax, but it was not negotiable. I thought it was a still good deal so I went ahead, but I suggested that in the future they might want to break that fee out instead of calling it "tax".

Oh and on that recall on the IVT/CVT... the dealership really pushed it and said they'd check for error codes and if there were none all they'd do is a software update. They didn't find any error codes.

benjaminh · April 2021

Here's a great deal on a midsize Sonata at my local Hyundai dealer: down to $19,999 from an msrp of 28k.

https://www.oxmoorhyundai.com/inventory/new-2020-hyundai-sonata-sel-fwd-4d-sedan-5npef4ja7lh026900/

stickguy · April 2021

Pretty well equipped. Just needs a moonroof!

ab348 · April 2021

$28K USD for the Sonata is interesting. Yesterday I was attempting to ID the only Malibu I saw on my closed dealerships tour on Sunday, which happened to be an RS. It looked good outside, but I discovered from the website that they only come with a black cloth interior, which on the Malibu is really dismal. So I decided to build a LT model the way I wanted, adding tan leather inside and a bunch of other goodies including a sunroof. With current GM incentives here, it came in at $27K Cdn and change. I thought that was a screaming deal and it looks like I was right. The only downside for me would be some uncertainty about the drivetrain, which is a 1.5L Turbo 4 and a CVT.

benjaminh · April 2021

The list price of 28k is pretty good for the Sonata, but the dealer price of 19,999 seems like quite a discount. That's probably less than the price of the least expensive new Civic.

Your ATS seems like a great car. Are you thinking about making a change?

27k Cdn for a Malibu does seem like a good price.

roadburner · April 2021

I seriously considered going low and slow with a Veloster N, but the M style seats can't overcome the remaining bargain basement interior trim.

jipster · May 2021

@benjaminh said:
Here's a great deal on a midsize Sonata at my local Hyundai dealer: down to $19,999 from an msrp of 28k.

https://www.oxmoorhyundai.com/inventory/new-2020-hyundai-sonata-sel-fwd-4d-sedan-5npef4ja7lh026900/

What a difference a year makes. When I test drove the Sonata last year, the discount was minimal. Maybe a grand and a half. Didn't care for the grill, rims, or interior...but that was on the next lower model. SE maybe. $19,999 would be hard to pass up.

benjaminh · May 2021

Since I posted that that Sonata has been sold, and so apparently it was too good of a deal for someone to pass up. How are you liking your Accord so far?

jipster · May 2021

@benjaminh said:
Since I posted that that Sonata has been sold, and so apparently it was too good of a deal for someone to pass up. How are you liking your Accord so far?

Great. 2020 Accord EX-L. Have about 16,000 miles on it now.
Sits lower to the ground, so have to be a bit careful with standing water. Handles great. 35.6 mpg. Smooth. All the safety features, stereo , infotainment screen are really cool. Coming from a bare bones Mercury Mariner, its quite the upgrade. Wife may be in the market in another year or two. Probably be looking at a compact suv, Mazda CX-5 or Hyundai Tucson type of vehicle. She likes the higher seat position in suvs.

benjaminh · May 2021

@jipster said:

@benjaminh said:
Since I posted that that Sonata has been sold, and so apparently it was too good of a deal for someone to pass up. How are you liking your Accord so far?

Great. 2020 Accord EX-L. Have about 16,000 miles on it now.
Sits lower to the ground, so have to be a bit careful with standing water. Handles great. 35.6 mpg. Smooth. All the safety features, stereo , infotainment screen are really cool. Coming from a bare bones Mercury Mariner, its quite the upgrade. Wife may be in the market in another year or two. Probably be looking at a compact suv, Mazda CX-5 or Hyundai Tucson type of vehicle. She likes the higher seat position in suvs.

So you're getting an average of 35 mpg average for city and on the highway combined? Wow, that's great.

Have you tried out your AndroidAuto or Apple CarPlay? If find that's great for navigation on trips.

My wife also likes the higher seating position of an SUV. You might also try her on the Honda CR-V, which I think costs about the same as the Hyundai and Mazda. But the CX-5 and Tuscon are also good choices.

stickguy · May 2021

My wife won’t go back to a sedan ride height. She is way too used to sitting higher, and appreciates the ease of getting in and out.

kyfdx · May 2021

@stickguy said:
My wife won’t go back to a sedan ride height. She is way too used to sitting higher, and appreciates the ease of getting in and out.

Same for my wife.

Michaell · May 2021

@kyfdx said:

@stickguy said:
My wife won’t go back to a sedan ride height. She is way too used to sitting higher, and appreciates the ease of getting in and out.

Same for my wife.

I suspect the same is true for my 5’2” spouse, thought we did move from a traditional SUV to a “wagon” (Outback)

stickguy · May 2021

An outback was fine from a height and ingress standpoint. She just didn’t want another “station wagon”

Michaell · May 2021

@stickguy said:
An outback was fine from a height and ingress standpoint. She just didn’t want another “station wagon”

When we test drove the Outback, we were both expecting the height to be lower than it actually was. Didn’t seem like much difference to the CX-7 we were currently driving at the time.

jipster · May 2021

@benjaminh said:

@jipster said:

@benjaminh said:
Since I posted that that Sonata has been sold, and so apparently it was too good of a deal for someone to pass up. How are you liking your Accord so far?

Great. 2020 Accord EX-L. Have about 16,000 miles on it now.
Sits lower to the ground, so have to be a bit careful with standing water. Handles great. 35.6 mpg. Smooth. All the safety features, stereo , infotainment screen are really cool. Coming from a bare bones Mercury Mariner, its quite the upgrade. Wife may be in the market in another year or two. Probably be looking at a compact suv, Mazda CX-5 or Hyundai Tucson type of vehicle. She likes the higher seat position in suvs.

So you're getting an average of 35 mpg average for city and on the highway combined? Wow, that's great.

Have you tried out your AndroidAuto or Apple CarPlay? If find that's great for navigation on trips.

My wife also likes the higher seating position of an SUV. You might also try her on the Honda CR-V, which I think costs about the same as the Hyundai and Mazda. But the CX-5 and Tuscon are also good choices.

Yes, combined. Probably around 80% highway. Pretty good for a midsize (almost full) sedan with good power.

Have used the android auto 4 or 5 times on shorter trips. Taking our first longer trip to Florida in June.

I do miss the higher seat position of my suv a bit, but the Accord has excellent maneuverability and handling to avoid accidents. Was able to dodge a almost whole piece of retread tire from semi-truck on interstate. Zip Zip. No problem.

benjaminh · May 2021

Yeah, this generation of Accord really does have room inside that's almost the same as a full-sized car from long ago. The back seat of the Accord is significantly roomier than my TLX. Great that you're getting such good mpg.

My 1988 Oldsmobile 98 was a state-of-the-art full size car for the year it was made, but even with the V-6 I think 0-60 was at about 9 seconds, compared to about 7.5 for the Accord with the 1.5T. And my 98 was downsized to get better mpg, but still I think the most I got even on the highway was about 25. That was really good compared to an earlier generation of full-size, like a 1984 Crown Victoria. Even though it was ten years old when we got it, the 4-speed automatic on that Olds seemed advanced, but today I've got 8-speeds—and you've got an almost infinitely variable CVT.

explorerx4 · May 2021

@benjaminh,
Your LTD had a 5.8?

benjaminh · May 2021

I was just giving that as an example for comparison of a full-sized car of an earlier generation with similar acceleration. My mother-in-law owned a Mercury Marquis, but I think it had the 5.0. I once had a 1978 Chevy Caprice Classic, but I don't remember the size of engine of the V-8. My 1969 Pontiac Catalina Safari Wagon had a 400 cubic inch V-8, and I think that one got about 12 mpg.

explorerx4 · May 2021

None of those cars are mid size.

sda · May 2021

12 mpg from the Pontiac was exceptional,lol.

Sandman6472 · May 2021

I do miss the higher ride height of my 2014 Tucson, the egress/ingress was excellent for someone with spinal issues like myself. Managing with my Golf as I sit on a special cushion which is raised a bit and super soft to sit on. At work now, I've been driving the Chrysler minivan all day so not much in/out anymore and the others are very happy I do this chore. We average about 350 miles/day lately around the tri-county area. As of Saturday, start my shuttle gig 2 afternoons a week at the local Toyota store. We'll have to see how it goes as they keep asking me for more hours/days. I'll be driving their fleet of Rav4's, Camry's & Sienna's it seems. Have always wanted to do this and an opportunity finally came my way.

benjaminh · July 2021

Now that the Civic and Corolla are about the size of an Accord and Camry from 30 years ago....

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-honda-civic-sedan-vs-2021-toyota-corolla-comparison-test-review/

"2022 Honda Civic Sedan vs. 2021 Toyota Corolla Comparison Test: Not Even Close
Together, they dominate the compact-car market, but one of these small sedans dominates the other.

....The most obvious differentiator is in how things feel and the impression they give. The Corolla's exterior door handles feel flimsy, and the door sounds hollow when you close it. The turn signal stalk feels and sounds like it's going to snap off in your hand when you use it. The materials are fine for a car at this price point, but Honda didn't settle for fine. Everything you touch, pull, push, or twist in the Civic feels like it was borrowed from a more expensive car.

Then there's the space. The Corolla is cozy at best. The front passenger's inboard knee is always resting against the center console, which is narrower than the Civic's but somehow still in the way. The rear seats of the two cars have roughly the same amount of space according to the tape measure, but the Corolla feels tighter, as you sit so high it feels like you have to duck to look out the side windows like you would on a plane. The Civic feels spacious and airy, with excellent sight lines and plenty of room to spread out, no matter which seat you occupy, despite being within an inch or two of the Corolla in every dimension inside and out.

...the lighter and more powerful Honda is unsurprisingly quicker to 60 mph and through the quarter mile by a decent margin. It holds the road better in our skidpad and figure-eight tests, as well, pulling higher average lateral g's on the former and posting a significantly quicker lap at a higher average g on the latter. The Corolla did win in one category, though: braking. Slamming on the brakes at 60 mph, the Toyota stopped 3 feet shorter.....

Of the cars in this particular test, the Civic's sticker was $210 more than the Corolla's. If it were $2,100 more, it would still be worth choosing the Honda."

stickguy · July 2021

ouch

roadburner · July 2021

Both are bigger than my 2er and not appreciably quicker than my Club Sport. I'd wait for the Type R- or Si at a minimum.

benjaminh · July 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5a8Fk436ZI

roadburner · July 2021

benjaminh said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5a8Fk436ZI

I'll pass on both, thanks.

benjaminh · July 2021

VW's Passat is in its final months....

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37069886/vw-passat-dead-2022-final-edition/

Nitro77 · August 2021

Scape, you can't even go by the newspaper ads, most of them have enough small print to fill a phone book. They're designed to attract attention and maybe catch unsavy buyers.

benjaminh · September 2021

The base Subaru Legacy has an msrp of just $22,995 + destination, which compares to $24,970 for the Accord LX. So the AWD Legacy costs 2k less than the base FWD Accord.

But Motor Trend says....

"In terms of acceleration, the Legacy achieved a 0-to-60-mph time of 8.3 seconds, which trails most competitors. A 2.5-liter Camry can hit the same mark in 7.5 seconds, whereas a 1.5T Accord is capable of a 7.2-second run."

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-subaru-legacy-first-test-review/

A second slower 0-60 is significant when you are merging onto a freeway.

But the base Legacy includes XM radio, illuminated vanity mirrors, led headlights that turn as you steer, as well as some other nice features. The Legacy seems like a great option for those on a budget.

The top models of the Legacy have a powerful turbo engine, but still aren't quite as fast as an Accord 2.0T.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a29380144/2020-subaru-legacy-vs-2019-honda-accord/

"Despite the Subaru’s all-wheel-drive traction off the line, as well as greater horsepower and torque outputs, the Accord 2.0T outruns the Legacy XT on the road. At the test track the Honda sprinted to 60 mph in an impressive 5.5 seconds and through the quarter mile in 14.1-seconds at 102 mph, leaving the Subaru more than a half-second behind. By 100 mph, the acceleration gap stretches to more than two seconds. The Subaru isn’t slow; the Accord is just a rocket of a family car. Adding to the Honda's athletic chops are its solid 0.88 g of grip on the skidpad versus the Subaru's lowly 0.80 g. The Accord also stops from 70 mph in 170 feet, six feet shorter than the Legacy."

Still, the loaded Legacy seems like a good option too if your budget is around 37k or so for a midsize car.

Michaell · September 2021

Folks who are shopping Subarus aren't necessarily looking for the best acceleration.

And, honestly, most shoppers wouldn't notice the 1 second difference in the 0-60 time.

Though, my wife has repeatedly found the 2.5i to be too slow for her liking - which is why our Outback has the 3.6 H6 engine.

stickguy · September 2021

If you can’t merge with a car than can do an 8 sec 0-60, stay off the highway!

Also, pet peeve, but 0-60 really has nothing to do with merging. Not often (outside of a few Westchester NY parkway Ramps!) you start from a dead stop on a ramp. Look at mid range acceleration. 30-70 maybe. Or 40-60 Coming up a ramp, just about any car has plenty of power to be up to merging speed.

Though it does seem like there is a continued decrease in driving skills, including understanding how to merge!

benjaminh · September 2021

I'm almost daily going 0-60 from a dead stop at my freeway onramps. There are sometimes stoplights right before the onramps. And one of my onramps has a substantial uphill on top of that. Added power is appreciated, although 8.3 seconds is adequate.

kyfdx · September 2021

benjaminh said:
I'm almost daily going 0-60 from a dead stop at my freeway onramps. There are sometimes stoplights right before the onramps. And one of my onramps has a substantial uphill on top of that. Added power is appreciated, although 8.3 seconds is adequate.

The Waterson always had some interesting exit and on-ramps.

ab348 · September 2021

A totally meaningless anecdotal note: an acquaintance of mine most recently bought a Subaru (an Outback IIRC) new now that he has a young child to haul around. He recently said that in 15 years of buying new cars, it is by far the worst in terms of things going wrong that required trips back to the dealer. He previously had an Audi, a Grand Cherokee, a Focus ST and a VW among others. It could be the dealer's fault, I dunno.

roadburner · September 2021

stickguy said:
If you can’t merge with a car than can do an 8 sec 0-60, stay off the highway!

Also, pet peeve, but 0-60 really has nothing to do with merging. Not often (outside of a few Westchester NY parkway Ramps!) you start from a dead stop on a ramp. Look at mid range acceleration. 30-70 maybe. Or 40-60 Coming up a ramp, just about any car has plenty of power to be up to merging speed.

Though it does seem like there is a continued decrease in driving skills, including understanding how to merge!

I agree; I never have a problem merging, even in the relatively slow Clubman. Needing a lot of horsepower to merge is like needing AWD to drive in the rain- it all comes down to a lack of driving skill.

benjaminh · September 2021

The 2022 Civic is almost exactly the same size as a 1994 Accord.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a37418355/2022-honda-civic-vs-2021-hyundai-elantra-mazda-3-nissan-sentra-toyota-corolla-volkswagen-jetta-compared/

"It's telling that on the first morning of our group drive, we kept mistakenly calling the Civic an Accord. That's not just because it now looks like an Accord, this new generation having ditched the preceding model's overwrought styling. It's more because the Civic now enjoys the poise of its beloved sibling. Although the interior is thoroughly modern-looking, the spacious cabin's ergonomic logic and quality execution took us back to Hondas of the past. A low cowl and narrow A-pillars give an expansive view out that the others can't match....

As with its larger sibling, the Civic delivers a master class in chassis tuning. "Stiff, stable, and refined," Hoffman said. Over one particularly bombed-out section of freeway, the Civic's tires and suspension thwacked loudly over potholes, but the cabin was largely undisturbed. Out on the handling loop, the Honda really established its dominance, its sharp reflexes and expertly damped suspension edging out the also-good Mazda. The steering marries ideal effort levels with a strong sense of straight ahead, and the brake modulation came in for praise as well. "What a fantastically easy car to hustle," said Irwin. It turns out we weren't too far off when we likened this car to an Accord. The Civic is the Accord of the compact-sedan class."

stickguy · September 2021

It is pretty big at this point. Same as the Jetta in recent generations.

andres3 · October 2021

roadburner said:

stickguy said:
If you can’t merge with a car than can do an 8 sec 0-60, stay off the highway!

Also, pet peeve, but 0-60 really has nothing to do with merging. Not often (outside of a few Westchester NY parkway Ramps!) you start from a dead stop on a ramp. Look at mid range acceleration. 30-70 maybe. Or 40-60 Coming up a ramp, just about any car has plenty of power to be up to merging speed.

Though it does seem like there is a continued decrease in driving skills, including understanding how to merge!
I agree; I never have a problem merging, even in the relatively slow Clubman. Needing a lot of horsepower to merge is like needing AWD to drive in the rain- it all comes down to a lack of driving skill.

Some people think that their car will break if they go past 50% throttle, and for some clunkers, they might be right.

explorerx4 · October 2021

Having grown up with RWD, I never have felt completely comfortable with FWD.
AWD has a more neutral feel.

rickdon · October 2021

AWD is superior though has a higher maintenance cost.

benjaminh · December 2022

This thread has been dead because midsize cars are now getting close to being dead.

But anyway, Honda has a new Accord for 2023, and I have to say I don't like the styling of it that much. It's okay, but seems on the bland side. At 196" long it's also the size a Toyota Avalon used to be, which seems maybe a bit large

I imagine the next all-new Accord, which might arrive around 2028 or so, will be an EV. I assume efficiency will mean they will bring it down in terms of size.

For the 2023 Accord the 2.0 turbo has been eliminated, and now the top line Touring Accord is a hybrid.

https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-907c81858bdfe231c1cc3d0f7004768a-sleek-powerful-and-electrified-all-new-2023-honda-accord-set-to-re-energize-the-midsize-sedan-segment

stickguy · December 2022

That’s full sized territory to me. I consider the current civic to be mid sized, like the Jetta.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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