Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

bolivar · September 2004

So, by golly, don't name names, let people learn the hard way, one at a time.

When the sleazy dealership has ripped-off everyone in the area, then they will be in trouble.

Right?

Sylvia · September 2004

I think you can clearly see that isn't what we are saying.

Now - if you want to talk policy and management - go to the Ask the Hosts discussion. Otherwise, we're talking Dealer's Tricks in here.

mikefm58 · September 2004

< they say it's better to have your maintenance at the dealership where you bought your car. or we again mistaken and misled??? >

You can have your maintenance done anywhere. Any competent shop should be able to do it. Make sure you go to someone you trust as there are many unscrupulous shops (IMHO).

You had a bad experience buying the car, I'd never give them my business again. Shop around. If you don't know anyone who can make a recommendation, find a shop that is convenient to you in the yellow pages then check them out with your local better Business Buruea, start at www.bbb.org

Good luck.....

guccigirl04 · September 2004

thanks for the suggestion.

mikefm58 · September 2004

One more note, always follow the recommended service as detailed in your owner's manual and don't let a service mgr. try to sell you more. Some places are in the business to "sell repairs & maint." as opposed to "repairing and maintaining cars".

guitarzan · October 2004

Testing Edmund's delete function. Testing...testing...

Seriously, and I don't know if this violates the rules of the site, but I found it cool that I can relate advice I learned on Edmund's to real life! Regarding negotiating techniques--I just realized a prominent politician in the news now has perfected a technique commonly known to quell objections. I think Burke Leon detailed this one in his advice on car negotiating: The "yes, but" technique. Keep an eye out for it on your TV's, you will see it. It occurs when one first agrees with their opponent ( or the car buyer), inserts a "but" or "however", then carries on with their own argument. Of course, if over-used, it can be spotted, and consequently can be rendered less effective.

bowke28 · October 2004

i think this technique has been used in tendem with the use of casual open-toed footwear...

;-)

KCRam · October 2004

Like you don't know what the rules are, Guit LOL

We all negotiate on a regular basis, we just don't always realize it.

But back to things with tires

kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and Wagons Message Boards

isellhondas · October 2004

Guitarzan, is it really you???

asafonov · October 2004

I was in San Diego last month and picked up a local paper. In the car section, there were large, color full-page ads from a multi-brand dealership (don't remember the name.) A particular ad, for a Chevy Tracker, caught my eye. It said something to the effect of, MSRP 19,995, dealership discount 2,000, rebate 4,500, GMAC bonus cash 1,500 - only 11,995! And then the ad said preowned, 2 available at that price. Now isn't the discount off MSRP only applicable (and makes sense) for new cars, not preowned? Same for manufacturer rebate and financing cash?

bowke28 · October 2004

thats not a trick...just imaginative advertising. budget car sales have advertised "over 1/2 off MSRP" for cars like 1-year-old tauruses and town cars for years.

Kirstie_H · October 2004

How does a USED vehicle qualify for a manufacturer's rebate, though? If it's not a manufacturer's rebate, and instead just a discount off the new price because it's USED, that seems a bit tricky to call it a "rebate."

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

KCRam · October 2004

I'm with you, Kirstie. Unless it's a demo, a used car can't qualify for manufacturer incentives. Lots of dealers say what Bowke mentioned regarding "half off MSRP" for used cars, but not with specified incentives that can't be applied.

kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and Wagons Message Boards

mikefm58 · October 2004

If the wording in his post matches EXACTLY to the ad, it doesn't say manuf. rebate, just rebate 4,500. It could be a rebate only for any senior citizen who can run the 100 yd. dash in less than 9 secs. You have to watch the wording in the ad. I bet the GMAC bonus cash includes financing with GMAC at a zillion percent interest.

In my view, it's a typical dealer crap ad.

asafonov · October 2004

I still have the SD newspaper at home, will look it up and post the exact wording. My problem with that particular ad was that it implied that the car was new - all other advertised cars on that page were.

Another interesting one (I have seen it a few times in a local Minneapolis paper). New Chrysler T&C, price not specified, $149 per month only, not a lease! Small print: payment for first year only, it will go up for subsequent years?

I wonder what kind of lending institution would underwrite a loan where there seems to be so much negative amortization in a car loan...

bowke28 · October 2004

"...it implied that the car was new - all other advertised cars on that page were."

so now they are supposed to buy a whole other page just for used cars? you cant advertise new and used on the same page?

kyfdx · October 2004

Any ad that starts with MSRP, then has a rebate, dealer discount and GMAC cash.. then states in small print at the bottom that the car is used?

I'd say that fits the definition of "dealer tricks".

bowke28 · October 2004

that it is the definition of "advertising cost savings"

do you have any idea how much it costs for an extra 1/2 page ad in a daily paper????

kyfdx · October 2004

I didn't say they should use a separate page for it.. Just the way that is worded is wrong. Everything about it suggests that it is a new car.... except for the fine print..

Stuff like that is why car dealer's get bad reputations...

toyotadom · October 2004

that the car is a demo....only idea I have. If it has rebates from manu. and has GMAC cash but is used...it must be a un-registered demo....

...funny, if they didn't put that it's a used car and you called and found out it was a demo/used vehicle, you would be moaning that they DIDN'T put it was used....

isellhondas · October 2004

A lot of dealers use deceptive ads because they WORK! They attract bargain hunters who are so concerned over the price alone that they don't bother reading the fine print!

If people wouldn't patronize the dealers who use these deceptive, screamer ads they would stop!

asafonov · October 2004

Well, I do not have access to a scanner at the moment, but the way the page was set up: 3 or 4 columns of car pictures, 1 column per brand: Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc. 4 or 5 color pictures in each column, of apparently new cars, mentioning MSRP, discount off it, rebates etc. Below each column a text listing of pre-owned cars.

boomer1b · October 2004

They blow your mind with small type, fine print, hidden BS etc..........

Ask Drift he lives there and knows what I mean !

mikefm58 · October 2004

They put some guy like crazy Eddy promising $7000 trade in regardless of it's condition. I have no idea why the state doesn't shut them down. They truly are deceptive lies. There are some good advertised deals that are legit though. But, you have to read ALL the fine print.

The general rule applies here, If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

driftracer · October 2004

you $7,000 (or $8k in the case of Cherry Hill Imports) if you don't mind paying $14,995 for a 1999 Hyundai with 80,000 miles. They charge $15k for a $3k car, and give you $8k for your $500 beater.

It's legal because it CAN be done, and they're still in business because idiots who actually believe all this junk flock to them in droves.

mikefm58 · October 2004

I don't remember all the exact words in the ads, but they were for a new car and also quoted the price of the new car, which wasn't too unreasonable. Something like 10% off MSRP plus minimum $7k for your trade.

driftracer · October 2004

a $7k rebate, like on several Lincoln products, that can roll into trade overallowance, it's easy to advertise.

The firm I consult for has looked at these people several times, and I've had many contacts with dealership personnel and potential and past customers.....they're sneaky enough to not get busted, but strong enough to keep these lemmings cruising through the doors looking for 48k for their trade, complete payoff, the first 2-3 payments free, and or no credit check, at all...

asafonov · October 2004

That SD ad again...

The $12k Chevy Tracker ad I wrote about looked like this:
- 19,995 selling price
- 4,500 factory rebate
- 1,500 GM finance allowance
- 500 SD county residents
- 1,500 value certificate
---------------------------
- 11,995 net cost

1 available: #XYZ (previously owned).

So no mention of MSRP, my bad, but factory rebate and GMAC cash is there. Nothing about sprinting seniors

There was another picture ad for a non-new car in that section and it said "dealer demo."

Bowke, I hear your argument about saving advertising dollars and I have to completely disagree (keeping in mind that you are in the business and I am not.) If that were the motivation, I believe the ad would have ended up with other "pre-owned" ads that don't have pictures, take up less space on the page and presumably cost less. Anybody know about state laws that determine what must be disclosed in an ad like this? I assume, perhaps mistakenly, that without some statute, the words like "pre-owned" or "dealer demo" would not have been in this ad.

BTW, when I asked whether people on this board thought an ad like this was a trick, I was seriously interested. I think this is in a gray area. And if people are not attentive enough to read all the not-so-small print on a deal that looks too good to be true, it is really their problem.

Personally, though I think what the dealer is doing is completely legal (obviously) and possibly ethical, I would avoid a dealer that puts out ads like this. If people think they can get the best price at a place like this (and the price is not everything), more power to them.

Long post...

mikefm58 · October 2004

I get the impression dealers that have these crazy ads are in the same boat as the businesses that offer pay-day loans or the ones that advertise get out of debt free. They simply prey on people that are very foolish their money.

driftracer · October 2004

bobst · October 2004

As I have gotten older, I have become more tolerant of people's behavior and more compassionate of people who are different from me. Yeah, I can even have a decent conversation with a Democrat!

So if a dealer has a very deceptive advertisement, it doesn't bother me at all. I would be happy to buy a car there.

On the other hand, I definitely have compassion for people who don't know much about car-buying and don't understand how to manage their money. I don't think it is nice to prey on those people.

So I am not sure how I feel about this whole discussion. Maybe I should stroll across the Mall and ask W what his opinion is.

driftracer · October 2004

mentality...

If you buy a car like Bobst, he's educated on the vehicle, pricing, and other fees, and he makes an offer, and buys the car, and that's great.

So many people don't or won't take the time to do one minute's worth of research, then they jump into a dealership with only a payment figure in their head, not understanding what it takes to get there - all they seem to know is that the dealer hits their "magic number" (or a little higher), they'll pull the trigger.

Personally, I did this when I was younger. Now, I see people following this trend like lemmings, then whining and crying that they got ripped off.

I figured out this process without the internet when I was 22-23 years old. With all the available resources, you can't help but fall into invoice pricing on a vehicle - it takes 5 minutes.

I have absolutely NO sympathy for these self-appointed "victims" and wish at times that I was fell-strong back in the car business and could do my weekly allocation of head-ripping deals as a closer/F&I guy...

mikefm58 · October 2004

Same here bobst. My wife works in retail and had a couple co-workers who needed help buying a car. Keep in mind retail doesn't pay much so these people weren't very well off. They couldn't believe how easy it was, with some research, to come away with a decent deal. I got great joy working with one particular salesman who thought he was gonna make a killing before I stepped in.

bobst · October 2004

Bowke, you can't recall me whining very often, can you?

stickguy · October 2004

Bobst is Mr. free market economy (at least when it comes to car shopping).

bowke28 · October 2004

now that you mention it, you dont flip-flop either...lol.

im starting to like bobst more and more every day!

;-)

bobst · October 2004

Bowke, you must have sold 6 cars today so everything in the world looks wonderful to you.

Back to the topic, I don't see anything wrong with the screamer ads that try to draw people into the dealers. There are no more misleading than the commercials we see on TV.

However, it is sad how our society encourages people to live beyand their means. Some of us can resist the temptation to spend much more than we can easily afford, but others can't, and it ends up putting them under financial pressure and makes them unhappy.

Of course, this problem has been around for a long time. Didn't even Jesus criticize money lenders who charged too much interest?

jasmith52 · October 2004

In reference to the previous post:

What would Jesus Test-Drive and how would his dealership experience be ??

Jesus would not only criticize the dealership for not getting him the "best" interest rate but also criticize them for not giving him top dollar on his trade. The dealership would then counter his criticism by throwing in some free Cocoa mats and a free oil change to close the deal.

But what type vehicle would Jesus be interested in ?

We all know that Jesus wouldn't buy an expensive SUV because it pollutes and is a menace to other cars. I suspect that Jesus would choose instead to negotiate hard on a late model used domestic and drive it until the wheels fell off. By buying a late model domestic used car he therefore would be living well within his means and wouldn't have to stress too hard about making those payments. Jesus isn't into the impress people you hardly know or the keep-up-with-the-Abrahams. So he doesn't require the latest ride for image or status.

bowke28 · October 2004

im not touching that one.

hawndah · October 2004

Actually, I have it on good authority that Jesus and the Father did in fact drive Hondas. He was quoted in John as saying "for I speak not of my own accord, but of my Father's" (this may not be the exact quote but it's close).

Sorry, I apologize in advance but when I saw this post I couldn't resist.....;)

bowke28 · October 2004

i just got up off the floor from laughing so hard...lol.

Kirstie_H · October 2004

... and the crowd went wild. Hawndah, please keep us updated on where you're next appearing.

Let's move back on to tricks 'n traps.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

davidkeith37 · October 2004

He would test drive a "Pope" or a "Santa Fe" but only at the Promised Land Dealership.I had a half page ad for a Hyundai Santa Fe from the dealer in Tucson in hand when I went into the lot. Salesman acted like he had never seen the ad, pointed out that I did not qualify for any of the discounts or rebates and after checking the stock no on the ad informed me that that one and only vehicle on sale was somewhere else on a storage lot. However did have on hand right there many to choose from, none of which were the white base model with no accessories that I was looking for. So I used an internet offer, it originated from an Edmunds page, and went to Scottsdale and got a good deal essentially without having to deal with any salesmanship.

CarMan@Edmunds · October 2004

Hi everyone. Some of you who visit this discussion may find the following new article that is available here at Edmunds.com interesting: Identities for Sale - What You Need To Know About Identity Theft. Enjoy and feel free to discuss the piece in this area.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shopper Message Board

rroyce10 · October 2004

**While the car dealership isn't the only place a consumer can fall victim to identity thieves, they are among the most common sites where the crimes occur. In fact, from the gas pump to the parking lot, the car can be a focal point for identity theft if you're not prepared**

       =================

             There's no doubt about it, Identity theft is a HUGE and "exploding" business and EVERYONE needs to become aware of it and take some serious steps to avert it ... but I think the author needs to spend a little time on the streets and find out whats really going on before printing: "dealers are among the most common sites" because thats not true .. perhaps this guy should talk with some investigators, or folks that actually spend time like the FBI agents that are running some of these investigations, because I have ...

           As you have probably read in the last 2/3 weeks there is a major identity scam with "online" banking, National City Bank, Charter and a few others up north have had "replicators" send email to 400,000/500,000 some customers "asking" for them to re-up their customer base information .. the pages look *identical* to their companies web pages, they ask for the S/S numbers, addresses, phone numbers, acct numbers, business #'s, etc, etc.com .. the bad part is, they are catching 3 out of 10 of the folks that have been getting the email.

               One of the worst sources of identity theft is one simple entity: Kids - yep, the 10 year old that lives two streets over, or the 12 year old that plays soccer with your son or it's just maybe the 17 year old that just dropped your Sunday paper off .. right now these scammers are paying "kids" in the neiborhood to ramble through that little thing in your backyard called a "garbage can" - and they have been downright succesfull at it.

             They can get 10/20 bundles a day and after they pick out the "real deal" info like credit card, property tax info, "payroll stubs", the insurance renewal from 2 days ago, the hospital bill you just paid and lets not forget that new registration from the vehicle you just bought, they can find a lot in a short time - thats why God made paper shredders - invest in one, the credit you save could be your own ... and yes, you can find a dishonest employee at a car dealership, Hewlett-Packard, the Burdines that you just bought that new Polo shirt from, or the Applebee's down the street from you ..

                I think Tara Baukus Mello needs to spend a little more time doing some real research and then he will be helping more people than just giving a Teresa Heinz Kerry summary of what he thinks.!



                 I hope you don't pay this guy for this stuff.

                               Terry.

driftracer · October 2004

I've NEVER seen an "identity theft" case stem from a car dealership.

I have seen one used car dealer (here locally) run like heck with money from loan payoffs...

The son ruined his dad's 45 year outstanding reputation in business with a week's worth of time. Now, dad is bankrupt, and the son's in prison.

Nobody can mess you over like family can mess you over.

I think the author of that book just used the old 6:00 news rating system, saying something shocking to add attraction to the story.

Truthfuly, I'm upset with what Edmunds seeming endorsement of this person's story says about their bunches of loyal car biz folks who post here.

guss · October 2004

If it is the dealer that begins with an "M", then he ruined more than 200 individuals credit. Not a small number.

I agree that these scammers come at you from all directions . Anywhere that you give out credit information , and a car dealership is certainly one. Dealerships are not the biggest sourse of the problem but certainly one.

danf1 · October 2004

It is bad enough that we are still trying to live down a poor reputation that was earned for the business by people who, chances are, are no longer in the business. These forums and this site in general do a good job of disproving some of the myths but this is a new one for us. Not only are we viewed as dishonest thieves, but now we are selling your identity. I would like to know where the author of this article got his information. I know as an F&I guy, the precautions I am required to take to protect everybody's information that comes into my store, and apparently, this is required by law.
There are dishonest people in this world and some may even work at a car dealership, but saying the dealership is one of the most common places that this occurs is unfounded. I just want to thank the editors for giving me something else that I have to explain to my customers who are already thinking that we are stealing, lying, and cheating. I guess I'll need to come up with a new story to overcome this one.

driftracer · October 2004

Sylvia · October 2004

If you want to respond directly to the author of the the article - click on the Help link in the upper right of the page and send a message to Editorial or Letters to the Editor. That way - they will get your message and respond.

And of course you can keep discussing the article here as well.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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Dealer's Tricks - bait &amp; switch, etc.

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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.