What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

No, but your comments demonstrate your anti diesel bias. Zoom zoom is just using "CODE code" to bow out out .

The article is another data point, that while the Japanese DO build world wide PVF diesels, for any number of reasons, many do not want to do what it takes to bring PVF diesels here.

14 ALTIMA (FUELLY.COM) gets 28 MPG (100,000) for 3,571 gals @ current LA LA land RUG price of $2.99= $10,677 . (since you don't post your 4/6 cylinder mpg results)

My 09 Jetta TDI posts 41 mpg for 2,439 gals @ $3.09. @ current LA LA land ULSD price =$7,537. So yes, I got you are ok paying more and using more fuel. and it's with me.

avalon02wh

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a big price spread between fuels around the country. The list below shows the prices posted on fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/todays-gas-prices/ I added the difference and the cost for the fuel to drive 100,000 miles. The number after the name of the vehicle is the combined mpg from Consumer Reports. The numbers are a snapshot and will likely change quickly.
State Regular Diesel Difference Jetta TDI, 34 Jetta 1.8L, 30 Prius iV, 44 Altima 2.5, 31
California $2.94 $3.22 $0.29 $9,479 $9,793 $6,677 $9,477
Nevada $2.53 $2.89 $0.36 $8,503 $8,443 $5,757 $8,171
Oregon $2.45 $2.86 $0.41 $8,412 $8,180 $5,577 $7,916
Oklahoma $2.14 $2.56 $0.42 $7,535 $7,143 $4,870 $6,913
Missouri $2.15 $2.59 $0.45 $7,624 $7,153 $4,877 $6,923
Nebraska $2.27 $2.74 $0.47 $8,056 $7,557 $5,152 $7,313
Alaska $2.62 $3.09 $0.48 $9,088 $8,717 $5,943 $8,435
Iowa $2.21 $2.70 $0.48 $7,929 $7,373 $5,027 $7,135
Arizona $2.24 $2.74 $0.49 $8,050 $7,480 $5,100 $7,239
Illinois $2.38 $2.88 $0.51 $8,476 $7,920 $5,400 $7,665
Washington $2.43 $2.94 $0.51 $8,647 $8,110 $5,530 $7,848
South Dakota $2.18 $2.70 $0.52 $7,938 $7,280 $4,964 $7,045
Kansas $2.19 $2.71 $0.52 $7,968 $7,293 $4,973 $7,058
Wisconsin $2.28 $2.80 $0.52 $8,247 $7,600 $5,182 $7,355
Arkansas $2.14 $2.68 $0.53 $7,868 $7,147 $4,873 $6,916
Mississippi $2.13 $2.68 $0.55 $7,871 $7,097 $4,839 $6,868
Delaware $2.30 $2.85 $0.55 $8,379 $7,660 $5,223 $7,413
Louisiana $2.13 $2.69 $0.56 $7,900 $7,093 $4,836 $6,865
North Carolina $2.23 $2.79 $0.56 $8,200 $7,423 $5,061 $7,184
Maryland $2.32 $2.89 $0.57 $8,494 $7,733 $5,273 $7,484
Michigan $2.31 $2.88 $0.57 $8,462 $7,693 $5,245 $7,445
Florida $2.33 $2.91 $0.58 $8,568 $7,770 $5,298 $7,519
Minnesota $2.24 $2.83 $0.58 $8,309 $7,470 $5,093 $7,229
Indiana $2.28 $2.87 $0.59 $8,429 $7,583 $5,170 $7,339
Kentucky $2.27 $2.86 $0.59 $8,403 $7,553 $5,150 $7,310
District of Columbia $2.46 $3.05 $0.59 $8,979 $8,200 $5,591 $7,935
Colorado $2.16 $2.75 $0.60 $8,094 $7,190 $4,902 $6,958
Georgia $2.23 $2.83 $0.60 $8,335 $7,443 $5,075 $7,203
New Mexico $2.15 $2.75 $0.60 $8,100 $7,177 $4,893 $6,945
Texas $2.12 $2.72 $0.61 $8,012 $7,063 $4,816 $6,835
North Dakota $2.24 $2.85 $0.61 $8,371 $7,453 $5,082 $7,213
New Jersey $2.12 $2.74 $0.62 $8,047 $7,070 $4,820 $6,842
Ohio $2.28 $2.90 $0.62 $8,526 $7,613 $5,191 $7,368
Virginia $2.17 $2.79 $0.62 $8,215 $7,243 $4,939 $7,010
Montana $2.02 $2.64 $0.62 $7,762 $6,720 $4,582 $6,503
Tennessee $2.12 $2.77 $0.64 $8,132 $7,073 $4,823 $6,845
South Carolina $2.06 $2.72 $0.66 $7,985 $6,863 $4,680 $6,642
Rhode Island $2.31 $2.97 $0.66 $8,744 $7,707 $5,255 $7,458
Massachusetts $2.28 $3.00 $0.72 $8,815 $7,597 $5,180 $7,352
Alabama $2.10 $2.82 $0.73 $8,300 $6,983 $4,761 $6,758
New Hampshire $2.24 $2.98 $0.74 $8,776 $7,470 $5,093 $7,229
West Virginia $2.31 $3.08 $0.77 $9,068 $7,710 $5,257 $7,461
New York $2.49 $3.27 $0.79 $9,624 $8,283 $5,648 $8,016
Pennsylvania $2.44 $3.24 $0.80 $9,524 $8,133 $5,545 $7,871
Wyoming $2.03 $2.83 $0.80 $8,321 $6,750 $4,602 $6,532
Vermont $2.37 $3.18 $0.81 $9,353 $7,903 $5,389 $7,648
Idaho $1.96 $2.77 $0.81 $8,132 $6,517 $4,443 $6,306
Utah $1.95 $2.76 $0.81 $8,115 $6,493 $4,427 $6,284
Maine $2.33 $3.17 $0.84 $9,309 $7,750 $5,284 $7,500
Connecticut $2.38 $3.25 $0.86 $9,544 $7,943 $5,416 $7,687
Hawaii $3.04 $4.49 $1.45 $13,209 $10,123 $6,902 $9,797

It is interesting to note that my Altima is going to cost $7,213 to fuel up over 100,000 miles while a Jetta TDI would cost over $1,100 more given the above conditions. And a person in Hawaii should really consider a Prius...

gagrice

avalon02wh said:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096944_mazda-diesel-still-on-tap-but-performance-must-be-suitable-exec-says This sort of proves the point that diesels have no zoom-zoom! The Mazda 6 is a quick mid-sized car. They don't want a poky diesel messing with their imagine. Diesel does appear to be best suited for trains, farm tractors, buses and the odd Russian submarine.

avalon02wh said:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096944_mazda-diesel-still-on-tap-but-performance-must-be-suitable-exec-says This sort of proves the point that diesels have no zoom-zoom! The Mazda 6 is a quick mid-sized car. They don't want a poky diesel messing with their imagine. Diesel does appear to be best suited for trains, farm tractors, buses and the odd Russian submarine.

I think the real problem is the Japanese just don't know how to build a diesel engine that is clean enough to meet US standards. Honda came close and failed, Subaru can't build an auto transmission to handle the superior torque of their diesel engine. And Mazda can't cut it either. Check out the Mazda 6 sold in the UK. Has two diesel and their gas engine. The Diesel is 2 seconds faster 0-62 MPH than the gasser. With more HP and twice the torque. Mazda like Honda before them, had to build diesels to sell any cars in Europe. They just do not have the engineering ability to build clean diesels. If the 175 HP with 309 ft lbs of torque is not enough for the Mazda6, it must be a bloated pig of a sedan.

2014 Mazda 6 i Touring Compare Car 0-60 mph 7.5 | Quarter mile 15.5
2014 Mazda 6 2.2L Turbo Diesel Compare Car 0-60 mph 7.8 | Quarter mile 16.1

http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/mazda-0-60-mph-times/

ruking1

The 14 gasser engine Mazda6 is 2.5L and puts out 180 # ft torque. It would be interesting to see what torque figures a 2.5 L TDI would post.

I say this in light of MB GLK 250 BT's 2.1L posting 369 # ft ! (189 # ft more) or 105 % more !! ?? A 2.5L TDI could surely put out BETTER than 369 # ft ! ?

gagrice

ruking1 said:

The 14 gasser engine Mazda6 is 2.5L and puts out 180 # ft torque. It would be interesting to see what torque figures a 2.5 L TDI would post.

I say this in light of MB GLK 250 BT's 2.1L posting 369 # ft ! (189 # ft more) or 105 % more !! ?? A 2.5L TDI could surely put out BETTER than 369 # ft ! ?

The Mazda 2.2L diesel sold in Europe with 309 ft lbs is pretty darn good. They have a 1.6L diesel with 115 HP and 199 ft lbs in the Mazda5. They also offer the 2.2L diesel with 150 HP and 280 ft lbs of torque in the Mazda 6. Which proves to me they are not worried their cars will not keep up on the Autobohn. Even the lower powered diesel Mazda 6 is faster than the only gas version they sell in the UK. Mazda knows they can get away with selling off their gas versions here. Cheaper to make and the American buyer does not care that much about mileage.

ruking1

It really does !! I think also they would have to make costly upgrades to the diesels, that they just as well are ok NOT making.

Slow news diesel night.

Refueled in Claremont, CA @ 2.99 ULSD (34 mpg). I think I could get used to this city.

RUG $3.35 !!!!!!

ruking1

ruking1 said:

It really does !! I think also they would have to make costly upgrades to the diesels, that they just as well are ok NOT making.

Slow news diesel night.

Refueled in Claremont, CA @ 2.99 ULSD (34 mpg). I think I could get used to this city.

RUG $3.35 !!!!!!

We were able to wrap up late morning (BEFORE the dreaded LA RUSH hour) and was able to flow with LIGHT traffic out of town.The wife drove the first 1/3 leg and kept it pretty much @ 75-80 mph for app 39 mpg (38.5 actual). We switched off and I kept it pretty much between 82 to 88 (to see if it presented an advantage) and the over all trip posting was 34.5 mpg. So really not much advantage in not doing higher speeds and higher mph bursts. The return trip was VERY uneventful. I saw one CHP coming up the six in the #1 lane, "HOT" and I slowed to 81 mph and he just shot past the pack I was approaching.

stever

I liked a house here while we were shopping but my wife vetoed it because of potential pump noise - we don't mind ag but this place backed up to a canal (we have chickens, goats, horses nearby and the backyard neighbor is getting a "dwarf" milk cow soon).

But you have to watch the irrigation systems around here. The branch lines to the fields from the canals are often filled with pumped water and diesel generators usually run the pumps. There was a pump just on the other side of the back yard.

That could go away, although I don't know if the replacements are going to be any quieter. There are plenty of electric pumps around too, when there's power handy. Switching over the next decase hould free up a bit of fuel though.

Diesel Braces For An Avalanche Of Solar Water Pumps (cleantechnica.com)

Slow news day for sure, but it's fun reading about "disruptive" tech.

gagrice

Several unanswered questions. First I think the Solar pump and tank arrangement is a great idea. My question with the advent of cheaper means of pumping ground water will these countries do what we are doing, draining the aquifers. Also when they replace diesel electricity with solar, do they still have to run and maintain diesel generators at night and when the sun don't shine? Third does SunEdison's solar end up costing the villagers more than they were paying before? I recall Enron going into Bolivia and screwing the population on utilities, making the USA persona non grata. Will we do the same with solar as other gifts? Go in with a lot of fanfare and install these high tech solutions and then say see ya bye? Nothing is maintenance free.

stever

lol, unintended consequences?

It does beg the question of why you don't see more "holding" tanks here for the irrigation districts. But the water flows and they really don't store it, just have some diversion dams. Probably not permitted by the water rights agreements - use it on your designated day or lose it.

And I think this deal wasn't aimed at electricity replacement. I can just see some village using their diesel pump generator to run the VCR for the nightly movie though. Lots of the island tourist "camps" in Thailand still do that - crank up a generator at dark and turn up the movie to drown out the generator noise.

ruking1

Talk about a (once) "good" idea gone disrupted and on 20/20 hindsight a TREMENDOUS waste of time, resources and taxes !!!

On the way down Interstate Highway 5, I saw a "vendor" servicing one of those break down CALL stations. My sense is a lot of them get vandalized ??? !!! Talk about insult to injury.

Another Highway 5 story. Interestingly enough, the "politicians" are trying to "DUST BOWL" significant segments of CA farming !! ?? Hard to pump water, solar or diesel when they choke off the water due to DRY water policies for FARMING.

Be that as it may, there seemed to be HUGE acres of nut or fruit tree PLANTING (easily no yields for 5 to 10 years) Another seems to be grape plantings. Both plantings are figuratively and LITERALLY as far as the eyes can see. The interesting "multi tasking" that struck my eyes were oil and/or gas or both pumping in fields of grape vines !!!!!! (the oil pumper in back of a McDonalds parking lot still takes the cake)

stever

lol, even I have a cell now. I'm waiting for autonomous trucks to take over the "third" lane - no more LLCs - the cars will be passing them on the right except for the odd truck taking an exit. Then they'll finally get their own separate lanes.

And then someone will have the brilliant idea of putting them all on rails.

Panasonic is pushing their batteries. Another diesel app replacement being touted. (virtualpressoffice.com)

gagrice

Panasonic will be building the batteries for Tesla if not already. I think Musk has set a pretty high bar for sales. There will not be any tax incentive left by 2020. Don't see that big of a market. Then who knows?

http://www.businessinsider.com/panasonic-ceo-tesla-will-be-making-500000-cars-a-year-by-2010-2015-1

ruking1

gagrice said:

Panasonic will be building the batteries for Tesla if not already. I think Musk has set a pretty high bar for sales. There will not be any tax incentive left by 2020. Don't see that big of a market. Then who knows?

http://www.businessinsider.com/panasonic-ceo-tesla-will-be-making-500000-cars-a-year-by-2010-2015-1

As computer "techie" as they would like batteries to appear, there is no battery "Moore's law." All one has to do is look at the lithium ion batteries (catching fire) put on latest generation AIRLINERS !!! Why does that (increasing the chances of on board fires and catastrophic loss of battery power) make any sense? It is not like an airliner can pull into the emergency lane on an interstate and use the vandalized call phone.

I would absolutely agree !!! Where would the demand come from? The burgeoning American middle class?

If we look at the (decades long approaching a biblical generation) growth of vilified diesels, hyped gasser hybrids, natural gas industrial fleets, EV, etc., ALL SLEEPERS @ best !! 95%+ PVF STILL use RUG/PUG !!!!!

How many folks would use ethanol, if it was a stand alone fuel (100%) ? ZERO %?

Does one think the (NO) progress in BIODIESEL a fluke? (ALMOST) ZERO %

US is the figurative and literal KING KONG of natural gas. I guess we are happy with its current fuel % mix in relationship to RUG/PUG ? (95% +, aka status QUO, vilify the competitors, like ...DIESEL)

Diesels are the "heavy weight" @ less than 5 % ??

Mr_Shiftright

I've heard from entertainer friends that "workin' for the mouse" is no piece of cake.

gagrice said:

cdnpinhead said:

Regarding Disneyland/world, PT Barnum was most certainly correct.

Ain't that the truth? I wonder if the employees are paid accordingly? I got burnt out on theme parks at least 30 years ago. We do keep up our Diamond membership at the San Diego Zoo and Wild Animal park. Both are nice places to just stroll around on the non school days.

ruking1

Resale Prices Tumble on Electric Cars
Tax credits on new models, worries about battery life undercut efforts to peddle used Nissan Leaf

By CHRISTINA ROGERS
Feb. 26, 2015 2:02 p.m. ET

http://www.wsj.com/articles/resale-prices-tumble-on-electric-cars-1424977378?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

So is this a positive or a negative for EV's? Or a negative POSITIVE? Do they hit the bone yard faster, aka FAR LESS environmentally friendly?

It brings up the issues of used cars in the 1 to 5 year old segment.

While it is good that 2014 MY sales hit what, 16.5 M units AND 2015 promises to top 17 M, I was blown away to hear the statistic (talking head Financial TV station) that USED car sales were 40 M per year.

stever

In the do as I say file:

Islington Council accused of hypocrisy as nearly 9 in 10 vehicles in fleet run on diesel (islingtongazette.co.uk)

Thought this was going to be a good one, but it's a police report with a bunch of crime blurbs.

40 Gallons of Diesel Fuel Stolen, Panhandler Arrested (patch.com)

This one was real:

Kirkby man steals diesel on his bicycle (chad.co.uk)

Black gold, Texas T.....

ruking1

Some of the European anti diesel venom should be posted in the European equivalents of the National Enquirer, right next to the: I see us using ALIEN fuel sources, sections.

Hard to say in "proper" English, but the REAL truth is probably more like: we NEED more revenue and want an "oppressable" group to pay MORE AND use more. The other side of this is gassers consume more ANYWAY and we will ratchet up the taxation for them to pay more a bit later.

fintail

I think "do as I say" applies to most of the shrill sensitive eco weenie politico group in every country. Everyone else can live in a cave and bike it, but don't take their ill gotten large houses and vehicles. Who's pocket are they in? Idiot Eurocrats can't keep up their guilted save the world ideal without lots of revenue.

fintail

I saw Chevron RUG for 2.83 this afternoon. Diesel was 2.99. No brainer time for a diesel premium car already.

Funny to see cheap prices come and go on a whim, no matter the price or supply of oil.

gagrice

Our Costco is up to $3.06 today. Last week it was at $2.67. Diesel is up to $2.95 from $2.85 last week. Diesel has been less than RUG for a month now.

stever

I don't think diesel has moved much here, highest is around $2.89. RUG jumped a dime at the closest station, but I haven't make it down to the cheap gas area lately. It's up to $2.29.

Looked at a house today for grins in Mesilla; not quite as nice as the place we landed in but in a more walkable area. We pull up and go "what's that noise - Interstate? Highway 28?" But it was too consistent. Go inside and to the upstairs deck overlooking the fields out back and yep - they were flooding one of the canal branches with a big honking (and loud) diesel generator. Cruised back through 90 minutes later after a nice lunch in the historic downtown area and it was still banging away. Scratch that.

gagrice

You like quiet and convenient, check out Green Valley, AZ. My friend's MIL has a place they spend time at there. Sent us pics of the Javelina wandering around the house. Not sure about the diesel pumps. Looks more like a retirement community 30 miles south of Tucson.

stever

Oh we're liking Las Cruces a lot. Met an "art" welder last night who's going to look at that old production loom that was gifted to me so maybe he'll be able to get it running. Keep running into all kinds of friendly people like that. I would just rather be able to bike over to their house and watch them play with their plasma torches instead of having to drive there.

Besides, I don't want to live around a bunch of retirees, even if they are running around in their clean electric golf cars instead of Cummins pickups, LOL.

Always liked Tucson though; going over in a few weeks for quick visit with old neighbors from AK.

ruking1

..."Besides, I don't want to live around a bunch of retirees, "...

Too funny! God willing, sooner or later you resemble that remark !

Nothing to do with diesel ! Got to love GLOBAL WARMING !!

https://gma.yahoo.com/antarctica-penguin-post-office-job-attracts-record-number-194402318--abc-news-travel.html

Closer to home and SLOW news diesel day

$3.13 ULSD

RUG $2.97

MG $ 3.07

PUG $ 3.17

The SO CA place (Claremont) I bought ULSD for the return trip is @ $2.99

PUG $3.93

MG $3.83

RUG $3.73

So the return trip (14 MB 250 BT) @ 34.5 mpg was $.0867 cents PMDF.

PUG for 14 MB GLK 350 @ 23.5 mpg (fuelly.com) would HAVE been $.159 cents PMDF, or 83.1 % more.

(I am doubtful we would have posted 23.5 mpg @ the paces chosen for the diesel. On the other hand, if the paces were chosen to maximize mpg for the gasser PUG, 350, fuel mileage would have been even HIGHER in the DIESEL)

Further TMI might be: making fully loaded tractor trailers to HEAVIER pieces pass you on the left (with me) @ 70 mph has the effect of slowing down the whole interstate in that direction.This is not to mention bunching is totally Unsafe which SAFETY is probably THE higher to highest priority.

stever

Shoot, I'm married to one right now.

gagrice

PUG for 14 MB 350 @ 23.5 mpg (fuelly.com) would be $.159 cents PMDF, or 83.1 % more.
(I am doubtful we would get 23.5 mpg @ the paces chosen for the diesel.


Odds are you would get 20 MPG. My wife's nephew is on his second GLK350 lease. He gets 20 MPG and still loves them. I asked if he had tried the GLK250 BT. His comment was the lease is much higher on the diesel My dealings with both VW and MB, they are not hot on selling diesels, at least not until you tell them that is all you are interested in buying.

nyccarguy

@gagrice‌

That might not always be the case. Leasing in complex. The car manufacturers (leasing companies) make it that way. If they are not producing that many diesels to begin with, then they really don't need to put an incentive on the diesel models to lease. The diesel GLK might have a higher money factor (interest rate) than the gasser GLKs. The gasser GLKs might have an artificially inflated higher residual than the diesel GLKs. I'm sure one of our hosts could confirm the actual numbers, but you could be talking about a difference of $40 - $50 per month which over the term of a 24 or 36 month lease adds up to a lot of money.

Look at @fintail. He GUSHED over his E350 Bluetec. His lease was up. He went to get a new one and the Gasser E350 was so much cheaper to lease per month.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

@gagrice‌

That might not always be the case. Leasing in complex. The car manufacturers (leasing companies) make it that way. If they are not producing that many diesels to begin with, then they really don't need to put an incentive on the diesel models to lease. The diesel GLK might have a higher money factor (interest rate) than the gasser GLKs. The gasser GLKs might have an artificially inflated higher residual than the diesel GLKs. I'm sure one of our hosts could confirm the actual numbers, but you could be talking about a difference of $40 - $50 per month which over the term of a 24 or 36 month lease adds up to a lot of money.

Look at @fintail. He GUSHED over his E350 Bluetec. His lease was up. He went to get a new one and the Gasser E350 was so much cheaper to lease per month.

GLK BT uses the standard MB MF of around .00200; the gassers have a MF of .00139 (RWD) or .00143 (4Matic). However, the BT has a residual either 2% or 3% better than the gas models.

ruking1

Indeed the rules govern the choices. So for example, 1000 miles per month is probably the average or 12,000 miles per year. Mileage over that is probably penalized.

Under those parameters, taking a 800 (of a monthly 1,000) miles round business trip does not make much sense.

For us, (if we had payments) the trip ( 2015 business rate .575 cents) would pay most of the (projected) monthly (ownership) payment. The additional benefit is the company saves money on one (and two actually) airline tickets and/or local transportation fees.

The TMI and GOOFY part of it is we arrived (hotel) @ similar times with people leaving two close International Airports (point A, eachs' homes to point B, hotel). We also were able to do 3 hours of meetings while enroute and about 2.5 hours upon the return leg.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Indeed the rules govern the choices. So for example, 1000 miles per month is probably the average or 12,000 miles per year. Mileage over that is probably penalized.

Under those parameters, taking a 800 of a monthly 1,000) mile round business trip does not make much sense.

For us, (if we had payments) the trip ( 2015 business rate .575 cents) would pay most of the (projected) monthly (ownership) payment. The additional benefit is the company saves money on one (and two actually) airline tickets and/or local transportation fees.

The TMI and GOOFY part of it is we arrived (hotel) @ similar times with people leaving two close International Airports (point A, eachs' homes to point B, hotel).

Actually, the residuals are based off of 15,000 miles per year .. residual goes up if you want fewer miles. And, you can pre-purchase extra miles up front it you want.

fintail

When it came time to re-up, it was more than $100/month difference for cars with identical MSRP. Worse mf, and there was much less room for negotiation, too. That article competing an E250 with a Prius apparently helped sales, and they had no backlog, unlike when I got the first car. They were more than willing to give away the gasser, where it was hard to even find a bluetec with the options I wanted, and none were even in thsi state.

That E had the most easygoing engine, and with the 4cyl being barely down on power yet up a notch in efficiency, it has to be good too. I'd go back to diesel in a heartbeat, if everything else is equal.

nyccarguy said:

Look at @fintail. He GUSHED over his E350 Bluetec. His lease was up. He went to get a new one and the Gasser E350 was so much cheaper to lease per month.

avalon02wh

"I think the real problem is the Japanese just don't know how to build a diesel engine that is clean enough to meet US standards. Honda came close and failed, Subaru can't build an auto transmission to handle the superior torque of their diesel engine. And Mazda can't cut it either. Check out the Mazda 6 sold in the UK. Has two diesel and their gas engine. The Diesel is 2 seconds faster 0-62 MPH than the gasser. With more HP and twice the torque. Mazda like Honda before them, had to build diesels to sell any cars in Europe. They just do not have the engineering ability to build clean diesels. If the 175 HP with 309 ft lbs of torque is not enough for the Mazda6, it must be a bloated pig of a sedan.

2014 Mazda 6 i Touring Compare Car 0-60 mph 7.5 | Quarter mile 15.5
2014 Mazda 6 2.2L Turbo Diesel Compare Car 0-60 mph 7.8 | Quarter mile 16.1

http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/mazda-0-60-mph-times/"

Edit: the above was from garice, the reference got stripped out, my bad...

Went to the Mazda site and did a comparison. The Mazda 6 SE with gasoline engine did 0-62 mph in 9.5 seconds and cost 19,795 pounds. The diesel version did 0-62 mph in 9.1 and cost 22,295 pounds. The Sport Nav version of each went 0-62 mph in 9.1 seconds. The gasoline version was 1,800 pounds cheaper. The more powerful diesel engine is 400 pounds more than the 150ps version.

I don't think the diesel version is a “bloated pig of a sedan” as you said. It illustrates the fact that diesel engines are better suited for pulling tree stumps out of the ground or towing. A person in the UK wanting to tow a caravan should obviously go with the diesel. If I was regularly commuting with 3 other people in my car I would lean toward the diesel Passat over the RUG engine because the diesel would be better suited to carrying the extra weight. If the area had a far amount of hills or mountains the diesel would be my first choice. Since I live in a state that is flatter than a billiard ball RUG engines work just fine. I am not going to spend an extra 4k for a diesel Passat over the 23k I spent for the Altima just because...

I would agree with your comments about the Japanese ability to build a transmission to handle the extra torque. That ability will come at a cost, however. VW & Mercedes I would suspect have the experience to deal with that. It also reminds me of the issue VW has with its auto trans for the Passat 1.8L. From what I can gather it can only handle 184 pounds of torque. The VW Golf has 200 pounds of torque and a different transmission or variation of. Of course VW has a big typo in their 15 Passat brochure. On the page showing the 3 engines they list 177 lbs/ft for the 1.8L (old engine number). Later on the spec page has the correct 184 lbs/ft. (fine print!) Maybe if they would spend a little less time on the pictures and more on the facts...

gagrice

A couple points on the Mazda6 sold in the UK. The base diesel gets combined 72.4 MPG the base gas model gets 51.4 MPG both Imperial gallons. That is significant in Europe where many places sell diesel (ULSD) below petrol (RUG).

I am not interested in towing, though the Touareg is tow rated at 7700 lbs. I am interested in smooth highway driving in the 70-80 MPH range. I like the fact that the Touareg TDI has enough torque that it rarely needs to shift even into 7th gear on the longest uphill grades out on our Western Interstate highways. I always compare it to the Sequoia with gas V8 and 5 speed transmission. Even slightest uphill grades were too much to maintain 75 MPH, the average speed on Interstate 8, 10, 15, 20 etc. With cruise control on it would drop to 65 MPH than drop into 4th gear and the engine would scream getting it back to 75 MPH. I got to where I just did not use CC. With the Touraeg, just set CC on the speed you want and it does not vary 2 MPH up or down hill. Just a superior vehicle in so many ways. And the Sequoia was not cheap when we bought it in 2007. We got $10k off of MSRP and it was still $57k cash out the door. Probably my last Japanese vehicle. Best highway mileage with the Sequoia cruising at a sleepy 65 MPH was 17 MPG. If I keep the Touareg in the 70-75 MPH range it gives me an easy 30 MPG and as much as 32 MPG. 21k miles average 26.6 MPG at 14.1 cents per mile. Sequoia had 36k when we sold it and average cost per mile was 21.7 cents. I am tickled with 35% lower fuel cost. And my wife's grand daughter is tickled with the Sequoia she got way below wholesale book with warranty still on it.

avalon02wh

ruking1 said:

No, but your comments demonstrate your anti diesel bias. Zoom zoom is just using "CODE code" to bow out out .

The article is another data point, that while the Japanese DO build world wide PVF diesels, for any number of reasons, many do not want to do what it takes to bring PVF diesels here.

14 ALTIMA (FUELLY.COM) gets 28 MPG (100,000) for 3,571 gals @ current LA LA land RUG price of $2.99= $10,677 . (since you don't post your 4/6 cylinder mpg results)

My 09 Jetta TDI posts 41 mpg for 2,439 gals @ $3.09. @ current LA LA land ULSD price =$7,537. So yes, I got you are ok paying more and using more fuel. and it's with me.

I am not anti-diesel. I just do not share your enthusiasm. Diesel is, after all, just a fuel.

I am not paying more for fuel. Your prices are different. I paid $2.20 for RUG in February not $2.99. Not sure why you do not understand that. If I lived where you do I would recalculate using the same prices and make a decision based on those numbers.

Another thing to consider is that I drive the Altima about 6,000 miles a year. It works out to be 80% city and 20% interstate. My total fuel costs for the year are under $500 at current prices. That works out to about $40 a month. So even if I bought a vehicle that had 25% better mpg I would save whopping a $10 a month. Enough to buy a burger, fries and a drink....

A third point is that I do not care for the Jetta. I like my Altima better. Turns out the cheapest Jetta TDI at my local dealer is

MSRP:$26,315
You Save:$1,940
Best Price:$24,375

The cheapest Altima SV is

MSRP:$25,945
You Save:$4,635
Best Price:$21,310

So why spend an extra $3,000 for a car I don't want that would end up costing me about the same to fuel (using my local prices)?

My fourth point is that fuelly.com is OK to get a general idea of mpg, but I would be cautious about the numbers they post. The people that post there tend to be fuel economy “nuts”. And I mean that in the nicest way. Top 10 Cars

Volkswagen Jetta (8,177)
Honda Civic (5,378)
Toyota Tacoma (4,132)
Volkswagen Golf (3,996)
Toyota Prius (3,695)
Honda Accord (3,274)
Mazda 3 (3,258)
Ford Focus (2,757)
Volkswagen Passat (2,380)
Toyota Corolla (2,226)

Only 113 Ford F150 owners posted mpg numbers while 226 - Prius owners posted (2014). Just a bit of a bias.

ruking1

72.4/51.4 imp gal converts to 60.3/42.8 mpg US (128 oz gal) The obvious question/s goes begging.

Indeed, my TLC (6 cylinder) experiences mimics yours, only SLOWER AND @ higher RPM and probably @ much lower mpg (14-16 mpg). @ 75 mpg, the vehicle becomes a tad harder to control and mpg drops more to 14 mpg. So @ current prices RUG $3.65/14 mpg= $.26 cents pmdf. It makes sense to keep them due to LOW yearly mileage. Again these vehicles are just fine.. even approaching 22/20 years old.

So to do 32/39 mpg on 2 DIESEL CUV's @ speeds mentioned in prior posts, on Highway 5 ( almost as flat and level as a billiard table) CLEARLY shows diesels to be @ DISTINCT advantage.

So @ 34.5 mpg/$2.99= $.087 cents pmdf, or 146 % more.

So again, which is better, even as some would want to trivialize stark advantages? For those not liking Jetta's, DON"T buy em !! Those nickels ARE surely ones to do with as one will.

The Touareg's transmission is capable to 627# ft of torque, for a 406 # ft of torque diesel engine.

gagrice

A third point is that I do not care for the Jetta. I like my Altima better. Turns out the cheapest Jetta TDI at my local dealer is

If you do not like the Jetta, it would be silly to buy one even if it was a LOT cheaper. You live where they choose to gouge diesel users. In CA they gouge everyone equally. In San Diego diesel and RUG are priced very closely. Today average price for RUG is $3.39 average price for ULSD is S3.29. My go to Costco is $2.95 for diesel and $3.13 for RUG up 46 cents in less than 2 weeks.

By the way if I owned a gas guzzling F150 I would not brag about it either. 113 owners reporting on the 2014 with an average of 15.6 MPG. The Domestic PU trucks are not much better on mileage today than they were 25 years ago. I don't buy the BS on the EPA website at all. My Ranger V6 was a gutless gas guzzling PIG. My Nissan Frontier V6 has good power but still a gas hog. In my opinion it is part of the government plan. Block FE diesel midsized PU trucks as long as possible. We are the only country in the WORLD still wasting gas in small PU trucks.

http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Costco_Gas_Stations/Chula_Vista/75686/index.aspx

ruking1

"I paid $2.20 for RUG in February not $2.99. Not sure why you do not understand that. "

Absolute no brainer from the start ! You actually agree with me !! Hard part was getting you to post data.

With only 6k miles per year, keeping a car falls more alone the lines of premium for convenience.

If I did only 6,000 miles per year the 03 Jetta TDI @ 50 mpg would use only 120 gals or 10 gal per mo. Even with $1.00 drop in prices that is $10. saved per month.

gagrice

What I find real Crazy is the 2015 F150 V6 3.5L is rated 18/25 with 20 MPG combined. Yet those willing to share on Fuelly are getting from 13.9 to 16.6 MPG. A far cry from 18-25 MPG. Ford does something to get past the EPA with that kind of BS estimates. For comparison, my Nissan Frontier gets spot on the EPA estimate of 15/20 MPG. I get 15-16 all around town driving. Guess you have to pay off the right people at the EPA.

ruking1

For sure, what has NOT changed relative to diesel are both the 33% +of diesel mpg advantage AND the need for the "egg" between the right foot and throttle for the gasser, gasser hybrid.

Ford did the 700# weight loss, but if the same thing were done on a diesel, the effects would be similar. There are HUGE costs (to FORD) AND UNCHARGES (to customers) due to the shift to aluminum.

I think also A/T transmissions with 7 to 10 speeds (8 speeds being the new STANDARD) will be the new frontier. Manual transmissions ( most situations normally have a better range) are in the minority and holding in the PVF @ 20% from what I can glean.

jpp75

fintail said:

When it came time to re-up, it was more than $100/month difference for cars with identical MSRP. Worse mf, and there was much less room for negotiation, too. That article competing an E250 with a Prius apparently helped sales, and they had no backlog, unlike when I got the first car. They were more than willing to give away the gasser, where it was hard to even find a bluetec with the options I wanted, and none were even in thsi state.

That E had the most easygoing engine, and with the 4cyl being barely down on power yet up a notch in efficiency, it has to be good too. I'd go back to diesel in a heartbeat, if everything else is equal.

nyccarguy said:

Look at @fintail. He GUSHED over his E350 Bluetec. His lease was up. He went to get a new one and the Gasser E350 was so much cheaper to lease per month.

I'd go to a diesel in a heartbeat too if everything else is equal, but sadly it's not.

fintail

I mean everything else purchase price-wise, of course. I don't care as much about fuel cost, when the gasser needs PUG anyway. Those are the vehicles for which diesel makes sense.

jpp5862 said:

I'd go to a diesel in a heartbeat too if everything else is equal, but sadly it's not.

ruking1

Really that is why I list my assumptions and numbers which can easily be gleaned and more importantly CHECKED to fit ones case, realities, etc. It is easy to see when Avalon02wh finally posted data, that @ 6,000 miles per year, it will take him close to 17 years (16.67) to post 100,000 miles. It is a no brainer to say his cheapest option would be to keep his GASSER Altima (@ current yearly mileage consumption) for a minimum of 17 years. @ that time/mileage he MIGHT need a major tune. At that time/mileage, do the major tune and onward and upward to the second 17 year//100,000 miles cycle !

The 09 Jetta TDI will need a major tune @ 120,000 miles. (TB/WP change, oil and filter change, DSG oil and filter change. air/cabin and fuel filters) Hopefully the 2nd set of tires will be good to go to 189,000 miles.

stever

And if he wrecked the Altima, what would be the best replacement?

gagrice

Another thing to consider is that I drive the Altima about 6,000 miles a year. It works out to be 80% city and 20% interstate. My total fuel costs for the year are under $500 at current prices. That works out to about $40 a month. So even if I bought a vehicle that had 25% better mpg I would save whopping a $10 a month. Enough to buy a burger, fries and a drink....

With your taste running toward the most bang for your buck, I would buy the Sonata long before I would consider the Altima. You get a much better warranty for starters. More interior room and a real automatic transmission and not a cheap rubber band drive system. And across the board about $1000 less for the Hyundai.

stever

Yeah, but "to do it right (in the U.S.) and hold margin on the car, you’re looking at a $5,000 to 6,000 premium.” (Wards)

henryn

That article is from Nov 11, 2008, in case you didn’t notice. Yes, it sounds really nice, 2.2L, 200 hp, 321 lb.-ft of torque.

But it is definitely NOT coming to the USA.

stever

henryn said:

That article is from Nov 11, 2008, in case you didn’t notice.

I did notice.

Part of the point is that it's still a no-brainer for @avalon02wh‌ to keep driving a gasser, as @gagrice‌ suggested. The payback would be too long even if they brought the Sonata diesel over.

ruking1

Looking @ 17 years from now, what will be 'GOOD," might be a rather muddied crystal ball. @ that time the 1 to 5 year old USED cars may STILL make all the sense in the world. I have just read that Honda gassers took a pretty good hit on the customer satisfaction index.

So right now, it is just short of amazing how the South Korean oems have improved their offerings. I think the Germans will continue to make incremental improvements, trying to advance their brands.

stever

Honda recently fired their CEO over quality issues, and not all were related to the Takata air bag mess.

Back to that Sonata, the other question is how much more, if any, would it cost over the gasser today if they had brought it over in '08. It it was a success here, the economies of scale could lower the price, unless they wanted to gouge people.