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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • "I have an '01 BMW 330i that I bought in June of that year - more than 9 years ago - & I've had exactly zero electrical problems to date. "
    Consider yourself lucky.
    My co-worker has the 330XI and that car literally calls the dealer its second home.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,288
    edited October 2010
    can beat up your dad. Great to be back in middle school, or 4th grade, or whatever. . .

    Didn't realize that the TSX I4 that I drive is only one step away from a threshing machine.

    Live and learn.

    I've only driven 1.3 million miles.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,673
    Didn't realize that the TSX I4 that I drive is only one step away from a threshing machine.

    Look on the bright side; it seems I've been driving taxis at HPDEs since 1988... :P

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Perhaps if you cleaned your glasses...
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    I'd say that your co-worker is unlucky, which can happen with any make.

    The E46 3-series cars have been quite reliable overall. Several of my friends & co-workers own them & have had good experiences with them.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "I've been driving taxis at HPDEs since 1988"

    What's the fare? I think I'd like a ride in your cab...
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 187
    edited October 2010
    ""I just see all those black and red dots." I don't think its a coloring book. If you actually scrutinize all those round red and black dot thingies - which sounds like it may be a bit too much trouble for you - you will find that the 328 and 528 have better than average ratings. As people have pointed out, even the more troublesome 335/535s have few well below average marks besides the stereo and heater or something.

    "Just can't justify it over a Acura or Lexus in terms of reliability, value, resale and similar quality." Who in the world would want to? Sports sedans are to go fast around corners in. Why would you buy them for "value?" You want value, get a Honda. Oh, wait. You did.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 187
    edited October 2010
    "There is no need to provide links and stats for my statement about prestige being a factor in BMW and MB purchases." Right, that is my point. You keep raging on about something but aren't willing to research or can't prove it but just keep repeating it anyway.

    "Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get. But, there are a lot of people not choosing the Japanese vehicle and opting for the more expensive, more depreciating, higher chance possibility of problem littered German vehicle. Some people making that decision HAVE to be doing based on the prestige/ reputation factor that MB and BMW have." "Have to be?" What are you Captain Jean Luc Picard? Just because you say so, does not make it so. You still provide no data to support your conclusion that people buy BMWs for prestige. I am glad you mention some factors that you use for your conclusion but your conclusion is, unfortunately, baseless b/c you are comparing apples to oranges in preferences. As Fedlawman points out, BMW buyers buy BMWs for their inline 6s, handling, and transmissions. You and other TL owners buy a sports luxury car for "value" and "resale."

    "why don't you provide a link about manufacturer discrepancies in mpg; I think its a bunch of bull b/c if anything, in the last 10 years, the epa and manufacturer mpg estimates have gotten pretty accurate a cross the board," Okay - here are the links. Not so hard, eh? But first, your attn span is really limited. I mentioned manufacturer discrepancies for space figures not mpg. No one takes manufacturers space numbers seriously. Regarding EPA mpg numbers, it is pretty unanimous among testers and the EPA itself that the EPA dynometer testing is inaccurate.

    From CR - "While the new overall mileage ratings are closer to the results of our real-world testing, there are still discrepancies between the EPA’s lab-generated results and the mileage we got from driving the cars on roads." http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/resource-center/fuel-economy/ep- - a-mileage-figures/overview/0709_mpg_ov.htm

    From Edmunds: The EPA acknowledges that test results might differ from real-world fuel economy ratings. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/105503/article.html


    "I've said before, (No kidding!) .... prestige is a factor. Maybe its not called prestige, maybe its called something else, you can make up your own word, I don't care, just get over it. Well, actuallly, since it is all baseless anyway, there isn't much to get over. But I know how you can get over German car envy. Sell the nose heavy TL and buy a Bimmer. There see, I can be helpful.
  • bimmer4mebimmer4me Posts: 266
    my 2008 328i, warts and all. :P
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,673
    I would agree that people buy just for the prestige.

    A vehicle or manufacturer with prestige would be:
    "standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion"

    So, for the most part a vehicle/manufacturer has to EARN that prestige...when we go test drive we determine if they live up to it.

    So, some people are lazy...they look at a vehicle's reputation (prestige)...and buy.

    One vehicle may have a reputation for being sporty...another for reliability.

    Buying a vehicle because it has a reputation for reliability is no more noble than buying a vehicle because it is sporty or luxurious. I know our CEO and CIO both purchased their Lexus LS's because it is "supposed" to be reliable...they didn't do exhaustive test drives or pour over long term reliability reports.

    I currently own a Lexus. I didn't buy it because of it's prestige...I actually prefer many VW's models over Lexus.

    Way back, I drove a late 90's (maybe 2000) 3 series...think 323 and was disappointed. I thought "I was expecting more...". I drove an ES300...and thought a VW Jetta was far superior.

    Difficult thing about a reputation is it's hard to change quickly. People still flock to Toyota (If I hear bullet proof in reference to Toyota reliability again I'll put a bullet in my head...well maybe not...but I'll be really annoyed).

    Audi has a bad reputation for reliability; the ones I've owned were less trouble than the Lexus or Honda's I've owned...although non of them were "bad".

    It's all good :)
  • GBrianKGBrianK Posts: 211
    If you'd like to be more "unique", may I recommend a SAAB. There not "everywhere" nor "mass produced". Now whether or not the company is solvent, that remains to be seen. Unique, yes. Reliable, probably not.
  • GBrianKGBrianK Posts: 211
    How long have you owned these vehicles? (Audi, Lexus, etc....just curious)
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2010
    "You keep raging on about something but aren't willing to research or can't prove it but just keep repeating it anyway"

    You just don't get it, I did provide the three factors making up the prestige decision in some of BMW and MB purchases so you of course missed that as usual. ALG residual value awards, CR LONG TERM reliability chart data (I'm talking for the previous model years, not the average or above avg ratings that they have given just TWO of BMW models for the last 2 years. There are much more black dots on BMW, Audi, and MB then there is for Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti, I'm talking 4 or 5+ years here, not when the cars are still new and under warranty. And the cost factor of similarly equipped vehicles built on each manufacturer's website.

    So there is the lack of proof your complaining about. I've told you the sites, where to look and what to do, not my fault your sitting there with your hands over your eyes acting ignorant.

    "Okay - here are the links. Not so hard, eh? But first, your attn span is really limited. I mentioned manufacturer discrepancies for space figures not mpg. No one takes manufacturers space numbers seriously. Regarding EPA mpg numbers, it is pretty unanimous among testers and the EPA itself that the EPA dynometer testing is inaccurate."

    Wow talk about limited attention spans, you actually were talking about EPA mpg discrepancies/inaccuracies now your complaining about space figures. Give me a break, your so full of it you'll say and do anything to prove your 3 year old 3-Series is Gods gift to man. It does not have the best highway mpg nor the most room of the entry-level lux sedans in its class. Get over it. Great, EPA figures are completely inaccurate and most people can get even better than that if they want to so if others vehicles can get better than their EPA then that means they still can get better mpg then the 3-Series since they are rated higher to begin with. Just because you and few dozen or few hundred sample size of the 3-Series have gotten great mpg doesn't mean all the hundreds of thousands of 3-Series owners are and thus proves nothing.

    You make yourself look ridiculous that when I post actual stats to disprove your grandiose claims you spend all your time squirming around it by "oh this is inaccurate, that is inaccurate, oh you can't go by this, me and a bunch of other people got this, etc. Excuse, excuse, excuse! Now we can't go by manufacturer space figures, c-mon :sick:

    " But I know how you can get over German car envy. Sell the nose heavy TL and buy a Bimmer. There see, I can be helpful"

    Why would I need to do that since I don't even have the new nose heavy TL nor do I like that car to begin with :confuse: I guess I'll never get over my German car envy since I guess the MB in my driveway isn't considered a German car :surprise:
  • 604doc604doc Posts: 182
    Has this discussion turned into cheese yet? You guys have been milking it long enough... :P
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,174
    long time has passed since my last post.. good to see some life back in this blog...smartylongposts and edwards and ivan in a battle of prestige vs ALG value and facts.. (smarty did provide some which is refreshing) .. some new cats talking about weight and power in the entry lev lux group which i found enjoyable, and how it relates to the old bmw vs newer ones (this is a huge topic among bmw loyalists)... hosts getting involved with TAxi and "free speech" (kristie is right -you will be censored, trust me).. and ofcourse billy still trying to convince us that the TL is handsome, i'm starting to wonder if he is employed by honda..

    keep up the good work..
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2010
    Here are the facts in the great Japanese vs German luxury debate!

    1) Japanese vehicles have higher residual values then German vehicles still
    2) The CHANCE of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still higher than a Japanese one and a higher CHANCE of having more expensive/numerous long-term reliability issues
    3) when similarly built up with the same size engine, features, content, navigation, etc the German vehicles cost a few thousand more than their Japanese counterparts

    These are all facts supported by various websites, CR, ALG, manufacturer's own websites, among others.

    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with these facts. There are many reasons to getting German over Japanese, mechanical and performance characteristics being just one, but if someone knows those 3 facts mentioned above and still chooses the German luxury vehicle over the Japanese luxury vehicle then some are making the decision based on some factor other than financial reasons or just sport performance, luxury features, etc. Its because of the name and brand definition of BMW and MB. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. That was part of the reason I got my MB those years ago You can give a name to what ever that factor/reason is, I call it prestige. Call it what you want.

    I just can't for the life of me believe there are people on here who do not believe brand recognition/prestige is not a buying factor for many people when getting a BMW or MB. :confuse:
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    Let's not forget:

    - Most European vehicles handle better than their Japanese competition
    - Most European luxury makes have nicer interiors than their Japanese competition

    Just to stay balanced. ;)
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Residual values really only matter if you're a short-termer: you lease or you buy & trade frequently. For those of us who keep our cars for a while - I've had my BMW for over 9 years & will keep it for at least another year - residuals play little or no role in the buying decision.

    As far as reliability/repair frequency is concerned, the Asian vehicles have the edge but the Germans - particularly BMW - are closing the gap.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,673
    edited October 2010
    As far as reliability/repair frequency is concerned, the Asian vehicles have the edge but the Germans - particularly BMW - are closing the gap.
    So there!

    Oh yeah? Well I have a friend who has a third cousin who knows a guy who told him that a guy he works has a wife that knows a receptionist who works for a dentist who had a BMW, and that car cost $5000 a month to keep running. Now he has a Lexus that has gone 400,000 miles and he's never even changed the oil in it.
    So there!

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    400,000 miles?!?!

    I'm selling my M3 and buying a Lexus!
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I'm thinking the only engine ever made that might go 400,000 miles with no oil changes is the old Chrysler 225 Slant-Six. Oh! And the Lexus engine of course. :P

    Then again, once the sparkplug tube seals and that looong valve cover gasket dried out and cracked, the 225 would need a quart of oil every several hundred miles just to replace what got through the seals. ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Well, technically, that's just adding oil, not changing it...
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Maybe it should be called a "Rolling Oil Change". :P
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,174
    by my count 2011 is a year that brings nothing really new.. the new S60 "naughty volvo" kind of cool i guess but its not going to win in performance. Lexus IS has new commercials that talk about its new performance package but its the same car... The G changed the front end a bit for 2010, but nothing has really changed-- i guess the new performance line is kind of cool but the sedan is not part of it... The Caddy has no changes planed, Acura TL will have to wait until 2012 for the nose job but nothing in the blood work..Audi looks like they dropped the v6 option for the A4. BMW has new "s" models but again the sedan not involved in the changes.. any thoughts??
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    edited October 2010
    Here are the facts in the great Japanese vs German luxury debate!

    1) Japanese vehicles have higher residual values then German vehicles still
    2) The CHANCE of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still higher than a Japanese one and a higher CHANCE of having more expensive/numerous long-term reliability issues
    3) when similarly built up with the same size engine, features, content, navigation, etc the German vehicles cost a few thousand more than their Japanese counterparts


    All these fit the descriptions of any appliance....

    Here are some facts about German cars;
    1) They handle better; the car is part of the driver; it goes where the driver wants to go; the driver feels what car is doing.
    2) They give passion to the drivers. I only see my wife smiling while driving a BMW, any BMW, in all the test drive events.
    3) They look better from outside; tight body, short overhang, creative curves.
    4) They look better from inside; tasteful usage of wood, metal, color and texture.
    5) They have higher prestige.

    In short, the Japanese cars are for people who just want a tool from point A to point B. German cars are for people who love to drive to any points in style.
  • GBrianKGBrianK Posts: 211
    1) I'd have to agree. BMW has the best handling car out there (better than an Acura...and I've owned two...TL and RL).
    2) Not sure about passion, but definitely allows the driver to push the limits while driving with confidence
    3) Designs are more evolutionary than revolutionary, but that's not a bad thing.
    4) In my opinion, BMW interiors are very sedate and understated. My only gripe is the radio system. Without having read the manual, I challenge anyone new to BMW to figure out how to change the radio station.
    5) Living in Dallas, BMWs are everywhere! Prestige factor is lower here.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,673
    I'm on the Lexus now (1.5 years)...I usually don't keep them long. I have the intention to...but then something comes up where I decide a change is needed. The Audi (A6) duration was 2.5years or so; an A4 was in there as well...was only 1.5 years duration.

    Although I do have a mini-van since 2005...probably will keep it for another 5 years...
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Can't argue with any of that! :)
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I would agree with you on points 1 and 2 for the most part but not on 3, 4, and 5. There are Japanese offerings from at least 1 of the 3 companies that can match the Germans in points 3, 4, and 5.

    Lexus definitely has the prestige factor or so many people would not flock to them month after month for most of their products have such souless driving. I feel the same way about MB but they do a little bit better job of not making the drive as boring as Lexus does but do not come close to Audi, Infiniti, or BMW when it comes to driving dynamics and sport performance.

    Infiniti gives passion for the driver, but if you have never had one you would not know that. I've raced many BMW's in my time with my Infiniti and have beaten many of them. Its a really fun to drive and I smile a lot when in it so there are Japanese vehicles that offer that passion and fun factor for the driver.

    In regards to point 3, Infiniti has really nice looking vehicles, tight bodies, and many sporty curves to them. BMW used to really lack in this area until the new 3 and 5 series which finally have some nice curves in their body styles and I quite like the looks of both of them now on the outside. Audi's body styles are really nice as well.

    In regards to point 4, the only German make who has a gorgeous interior is Audi. BMW is still on the plain side with little textures, color in their interiors and just are functional. Luckily they use high quality materials and little plastic which helps the blahness and makes the interior's livable and presentable. MB is using too much plastic like Acura does now on the interiors which is disappointing and a turn off for me. The new M from Infiniti has a really nice textured/high quality interior which competes finally on par with the Germans. Lexus has nice/high quality interiors as well depending on the model you get.

    There are plenty of Japanese vehicles that are for people who love to drive to any points in style, you just don't care to look for them. Talk about a rash generalization.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    In regards to point 4, the only German make who has a gorgeous interior is Audi.

    IMHO MB interiors are much nicer than Lexus. They also smell much richer, something about differences in the leather.
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