Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe they've got their eyes on a global market for this car. Foreign buyers have no real point of reference regarding the history of the name.

robr2

Mr_Shiftright said:

Maybe they've got their eyes on a global market for this car. Foreign buyers have no real point of reference regarding the history of the name.

China is a key target market for the Continental and for Lincoln as a brand.

andys120

Count me as one who is happy to see a Lincoln that, whatever other faults it might have, has a real name, not a hodge-podge of initials. As for the concept car it looks promising, with a Bentley-esque flair to the styling but we'll have to wait and see if the actual car looks good (toning down those silly wheels would be a good start).

I doubt a $75K price point would work; that's too high by 1/3.

Mr_Shiftright

Well they could do like they did with the first Lexus--undercut the competition at first by $10K-$15K and then gradually increase it if the model is popular.

markcincinnati

Someone somewhere once said, "Life is full of disappointments, get used to it."

My wife took her 2014 SQ5 to the dealer service dept for the 35K service interval. This dealer typically aligns the car they offer the customer as their loaner car with the customer's actual car. Well, of course they don't have loaner SQ5's (didn't even think they would); so they offer her an S4. She said, "Since my husband has an S4, could you put me in something that I don't normally have access to?" Service adviser -- who knows us well -- says, "Sure, what would you like?" My wife says, "How about an A7 or S7." "Well the last A7 just left, but we have a 2015 3.0T A6 with sport package that you might find interesting . . . "

Longer story short: She takes the sported-up A6 and drives it to work, the grocery store and home. Next morning (Saturday) she asks me to return the A6 and pick up the SQ5.

The A6 is, hmm, sublime, it is so smooooth and powerful and almost eerily quiet. The thing accelerates with a great deal of urgency but somehow behind the wheel there is virtually no drama. There's a certain tightness to the suspension (better be, it had the sport suspension and upsized wheels and tires) -- I got the sense this (relatively) large car was proving itself to be damn near nimble.

And, at $59K, it is about the same MSRP as my S4. I could see myself driving this thing -- it has more comfort, but it appears to give up but little in responsiveness to the wheel and whip.

Then I get into a stretch that I know from many years of experience is full of twisties and off-camber turns and those kind of "liquid potholes" -- undulations in the pavement that have yet to break through to the substrate. Kind of upside down speed bumps.

In any case, I am seriously looking forward to the ride.

That is, until I take my first corner at speed -- about triple what the posted "curve ahead" yellow sign with the big black arrow "suggests." The car has NO issue taking the turn, It seems unflapped by my request for it to turn in sharply -- it does not understeer (that I could tell, anyway) and the tires didn't howl.

Damn, damn, damn -- the leather covered driver's seat is a flat as a board and about as slick as a kid's slide. The car takes the turn with great aplomb -- too bad it all but threw me overboard (thankfully I was wearing my lap/shoulder belt and was holding on to the steering wheel with both hands.)

Somewhere I heard, or thought I heard, "WHOA NELLIE!"

My 2009 A4 Prestige with sport package and my 2005 A6 -- BOTH of THEM -- had sport seats (optional, yes). I returned the car to the dealer and at that exact moment in time, the sales team was sans customers, so I asked (thankful my opinion pertaining to the horrible "bucket" seats would not be overheard by any other customers), "Can I order sport seats on a new A6 with the sport package?" And, "Can I order sport seats through the Audi Exclusive channel?"

The S6 (which is another $20,000) can have sport seats, the A6, no matter how optioned cannot.

What a world, what a world. I'm melting, melting.

tlong

I recently visited an Audi dealer after many years away and took a look at the cars. I noticed thath the "standard" seat was very flat and uninspiring. The "sport" seats were highly bolstered and adjustable.

Back in time, my '98 A4 had its standard seats that were somewhere in between these two current extremes. It's unfortunate that the standard seats in current models look like couch seats and that there is no in-between level of bolstering similar to what you might find in a Honda or Mazda today. I thought the standard seats were pretty ugly.

roadburner

The base seats in the newer BMWs are just mediocre, at best. The seats in my wife's E90 are not anywhere near as comfortable as the seats in my MS3- never mind the sport seats in my Club Sport or the E21 Recaros in my '02. My dealer has a CPO 135i stick with every option but the Sport or M Sport package. I'd be sorely tempted were it not for that omission.

markcincinnati

I am so spoiled, and until Saturday I didn't even know it. The S4's seats (and I have the optional red leather upgraded ones) are both comfortable and grippy. For years the sport seat option was a stand alone upgrade and, as I recall, was priced at $550. Even adjusted for inflation and twice the cost, I'd go ahead and pay $1,000-ish for the upgrade -- seems like about $650 would be "appropriate" though.

The same is true, apparently, across the line -- the only way to get the really good chairs is to opt for the "S" or "RS" versions. Now, I am a fan, but I loved my 2.0T A4 with sport package when I picked it up in 2008. And, my '05 A6 also had the bolsters on it (a $1,000 option in "dark burnt orange").

Nothing gold can stay.

circlew

Why would anyone buy a BMW without sport seats? Only those who haven't indulged!

graphicguy

Mark...I echo your sentiments about the A6 with the 3.0T and sport set up. I felt that would be my next purchase if things had turned out better with my S4. Not so, though. I also agree about the seats....nowhere near what I want. But, everything is a compromise. The A6 with the S4 motor is screaming cruiser.

My favorite seats were the sport seats in my Acura TL SH AWD. Comfortable with perfect bolstering.../not too much....not too little....just right. Decent padding, too (which I could not say with the S4 seats which were particularly unyielding) 2nd is in the CTS. Thigh extensions, really nice leather. Could use a bit more bolstering. But for overall use and comfort, they acquit themselves quite well.

roadburner

circlew said:

Why would anyone buy a BMW without sport seats? Only those who haven't indulged!

The base seats in my wife's E36, E39, and E83 were fine for all but "brisk" driving; the E90 base seats are more like park benches. In Europe the sport seats are a standalone option, but in the US you have to get the Sport/M Sport package. Fine for me, but my wife doesn't want/need the staggered summer rubber or the M Sport suspension(which admittedly feels a bit brittle with RFTs).

dino001

roadburner said:

The base seats in the newer BMWs are just mediocre, at best. The seats in my wife's E90 are not anywhere near as comfortable as the seats in my MS3- never mind the sport seats in my Club Sport or the E21 Recaros in my '02. My dealer has a CPO 135i stick with every option but the Sport or M Sport package. I'd be sorely tempted were it not for that omission.

I'd go further - the base seats are proof that majority of 3-series and 4-series buyers are there for the badge. I said repeatedly to salesmen that those seats are deal breakers to me. many of them totally agree that those standard seats are true disgrace. I'll admit that F3x standard seats are improved over E9x standard seats, but still way in a different neighborhood of off what a "sports sedan" should have as standard. I simply can't believe they have been selling this crap for this long with no signs of change. What's worse - you can't even get their sports seats on "Luxury" line, even as a stand-alone option. That is truly pathetic. Now I hear Audi has gone same way? The world is ending, no doubt.

dino001

I always made fun at American manufacturers that they had no clue how to make a decent car seat. It was a clear cultural thing - for too long the mainstream here believed that a car seat should look like a couch: flat, unbolstered bench with supersoft, but short cushions and non-adjustable low head restraints (aka neck breakers) was the "good seat". Just a look at an old Chevy, Buick, or Ford (GM was the worst though, hands down) made my back and neck hurt. Seems American public learned since then and so did the manufacturers.

However, Germans have always known how to make good car seats. They just don't care enough to give us one in their base price, which is inexcusable, IMHO.

As I keep owning my BMW and really like it, I became quite disgruntled with the way they market and price their product. Not so much about the pricing level (because in comparison to Europe and other markets we have it really good here), but the sneaky way they put the content together and sometimes truly embarrassing configurations. Besides the front seats, my other "favorite" is fold-down seats, which used to be $500 option on previous generations and still remains one on 320 line (now standard on 328/335). What was worse, majority of dealers appear to be oblivious to that and ordered cars without them, so I am absolutely positive there were plenty of people shocked to learn their "luxury" car lacked a feature standard on the cheapest vehicle sold in the country.

dino001

roadburner said:

circlew said:

Why would anyone buy a BMW without sport seats? Only those who haven't indulged!

The base seats in my wife's E36, E39, and E83 were fine for all but "brisk" driving; the E90 base seats are more like park benches. In Europe the sport seats are a standalone option, but in the US you have to get the Sport/M Sport package. Fine for me, but my wife doesn't want/need the staggered summer rubber or the M Sport suspension(which admittedly feels a bit brittle with RFTs).

I believe there is an option for all-season non-staggered tires with Sport/M-Sport package. I don't know if dealers order them, but it is possible to order. You can also get a "normal" suspension with those, just get x-drive (in this case, Sport/M Sport turns into pure aesthetic package plus seats). To get sport suspension with x-drive, you need to pony up another $1000 for their adaptive M-sport stuff. So there is a way to get good seats without firm suspension.

laurasdada

The standard seats in the XF are pretty good. While not "Sport" seats, I feel they lean in that direction with decent bolstering on the sides and the seat itself. The "Bonded" leather can be a bit slippery, but I stay pretty much in place when the road curves. I really wish the seat bottom had thigh support/adjustments though. I find the cushion just a hair short and I'd prefer more support/adjustment. The XK had the multiple adjustable seats, everything was adjustable. Fabulous. I would have had to have sprung for the $4k Portfolio pkg. in the XF to get those seats, the only option my XF does not have.

Looking forward to the coming years when y'all are writing about how great your new XEs and XFs are!

andres3

sweendogy said:

Back to renta car talk above....I think I would of went with the Buick - imagine being the guy with the Buick.....helmet in hand ..Sirius 50's station blasting

Buick's reputation for being more reliable than other GM cars may have been severely tarnished by someone actually letting the RPM gauge go past 3K or pushing the throttle past 33%.

I'd of been worried about needing a Hertz tow truck. Of course, I've talked about a previous Camaro requiring a new transmission before the weekend was out. They conveniently towed his car off the track and put it next to the adjacent public highway before the "Hertz" tow truck got there; to avoid any possible confrontations about why the car broke down. I read all the fine print in Hertz's contract, and it doesn't specifically exclude HPDE's.

andres3

dino001 said:

andres3 said:

, insurance companies don't believe you should be given a "like" vehicle unless "like" just means in size. Either that, or they don't believe premium sports cars are ever involved in accidents

It's not as simple. Generally, "like" vehicle does exactly mean size and arguably some comfort feature content, one could also argue for safety, but that's about it. The other party liability should do reasonable effort to allow you maintaining your lifestyle without much disruption, so if your lifestyle includes some leisure activities requiring driving, then they should in theory compensate for that, but I doubt any jury or court would be too sympathetic for weekend going 100+ mph somewhere. Moreover, are you really insured for going on track in your own contract? I'd check that, if I were you - if you hit something or somebody during such an event, you may be unpleasantly surprised by exclusion on your own insurance contract. So, if you are not even insured for that under your own contract, I can see the liable party easily weasel out of their obligation, at least their insurance. Perhaps you could sue the actual party, but good luck with that, too. It would surely do for an interesting legal precedent.

I'd for certain argue about safety, as if I'm killed in a Kia Rio rental I'd of likely survived in an Audi S4.
I'd leave instructions for my heirs to sue for everything Hertz and the at-fault party were worth (driver and insurance that directly caused the rental in the first place). I'm certainly honestly concerned about safety, as I hope the **** never hits the fan, but you never know.

You could argue you take trips to the mountains, maybe go on dirt or snowy roads, so you have to have AWD. You could argue you need the creature comforts of a premium car, the nice sound system, and other features you enjoy. There's a reason someone buys a luxury sport vehicle, and you can't just replace it with an old Chevy Impala rental because it's as big or bigger and has 4-doors.

As to being insured for HPDE events, as of about a year ago, Geico specifically has made an effort to exclude it in the policy. However, you wouldn't be suing for insurance coverage while your at the track, you'd be suing for "loss of use," as very few cars are track-suitable, or as fun to drive as an S4. I think it's two entirely different concepts. It's equivalent to if your house burns down and you have (loss of use housing coverage) putting you in a 4,000 SF mansion in El Centro, CA, instead of La Jolla, CA. Equivalent to insurance companies, but not anyone else that lives in the real world.

andres3

roadburner said:

billyperks4 said:

"I'd take a Charger R/T with the Road and Track package over an F10 every time. "

HA HA HAAAAAA- you are a funny guy.

Take them both to an HPDE and see who ends up laughing.

assuming the Dodge doesn't break down before the weekend's out......

roadburner

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

Michaell

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

...by putting him into a Hellcat or an SRT 392 for the weekend.

Heck, RB, if you can make the switch from BMW to Chrysler, I think everyone could!

nyccarguy

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

Every single manufacturer has gone through significant changes (for better or worse) since the mid-90's when you owned your Neon. In fact, if things hadn't changed I'd be right there with you. My first car was a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT (bought brand new) which had a myriad of problems that concluded with the loeb of the camshaft (2nd from the top) completely wearing down at 61K miles. For years I swore off GM and Domestics in general. I'm sure I even vowed at one point (most likely on these boards) to never set foot in a D3 dealership again. Durability and reliability have increased tremendously across the board. Horsepower numbers are up (and so is weight). Significant weight loss seems to be the next trend. Each manufacturer does make a performance oriented car that given proper modifications will perform very well at the track. There are very few cars out there that are "no compromise."

robr2

nyccarguy said:

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

Every single manufacturer has gone through significant changes (for better or worse) since the mid-90's when you owned your Neon. In fact, if things hadn't changed I'd be right there with you. My first car was a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT (bought brand new) which had a myriad of problems that concluded with the loeb of the camshaft (2nd from the top) completely wearing down at 61K miles. For years I swore off GM and Domestics in general. I'm sure I even vowed at one point (most likely on these boards) to never set foot in a D3 dealership again. Durability and reliability have increased tremendously across the board. Horsepower numbers are up (and so is weight). Significant weight loss seems to be the next trend. Each manufacturer does make a performance oriented car that given proper modifications will perform very well at the track. There are very few cars out there that are "no compromise."

The part that bugs me the most is that it wasn't even his car. It was his parents'. I figure his grandkids will be the ones to give up the grudge.

tlong

dino001 said:

I always made fun at American manufacturers that they had no clue how to make a decent car seat. It was a clear cultural thing - for too long the mainstream here believed that a car seat should look like a couch: flat, unbolstered bench with supersoft, but short cushions and non-adjustable low head restraints (aka neck breakers) was the "good seat". Just a look at an old Chevy, Buick, or Ford (GM was the worst though, hands down) made my back and neck hurt. Seems American public learned since then and so did the manufacturers.

However, Germans have always known how to make good car seats. They just don't care enough to give us one in their base price, which is inexcusable, IMHO.

As I keep owning my BMW and really like it, I became quite disgruntled with the way they market and price their product. Not so much about the pricing level (because in comparison to Europe and other markets we have it really good here), but the sneaky way they put the content together and sometimes truly embarrassing configurations. Besides the front seats, my other "favorite" is fold-down seats, which used to be $500 option on previous generations and still remains one on 320 line (now standard on 328/335). What was worse, majority of dealers appear to be oblivious to that and ordered cars without them, so I am absolutely positive there were plenty of people shocked to learn their "luxury" car lacked a feature standard on the cheapest vehicle sold in the country.

I would rather buy a Mazda 3, fully loaded, for under $30K and have better reliability and a good seat at a reasonable price.

I used to have exactly the same impressions of American vs. German car seats. It looks like the Germans are pandering to the mainstream US tastes and then getting a good seat is another way to nickel and dime those already high prices into higher prices. VW tried to pander to the US tastes with their blandmobiles like the current Jetta and the bloated Passat - and they have fully lost my interest on any of their models.

roadburner

I'll just pour more fuel on the fire; my wife liked the seats in the Fiat 500 Pop we rented better than the E90's seats. Ditto for the chairs in my 1999 Wrangler Sahara.

graphicguy

Heck...if I can get over my Cadillac aversion, anyone can get over whatever prejudice with any car model/company.

markcincinnati

Seat update: there is an Audi A6 (not S6, A6) seat option that does, mostly, mitigate my complaints about the flat, slick bucket seats that are standard equipment.

The option is called Individual Contour Seating Package. Please sit down.

It is $3,450.00.

Shut the front door.

Now, the seating package includes magic finger massage and full gender specif catheterization so you never have stop for those pesky bathroom breaks on those long 400 mile stints where there are no bathrooms.

The seats ARE very very nice -- I was hoping for something in the $1,000 range tho . . .

Of course there's always the $20,000 S6 upgrade which comes with the good seats, standard.

Decisions, decisions.

Oh yea, it also comes with stints. Whatever that means.

cdnpinhead

markcincinnati said:

The option is called Individual Contour Seating Package. Please sit down.

It is $3,450.00.

Shut the front door.

Now that is nicely put.

As I drive my lowly pre-beak TSX, it's interesting to hear my betters discuss this sort of stuff.

Some do it better than others.

cdnpinhead

tlong

cdnpinhead said:

markcincinnati said:

The option is called Individual Contour Seating Package. Please sit down.

It is $3,450.00.

Shut the front door.

Now that is nicely put.

As I drive my lowly pre-beak TSX, it's interesting to hear my betters discuss this sort of stuff.

Some do it better than others.

I really like that edition of the TSX - in many ways better than my same vintage TL.

andres3

Case in point, again: The loaner Audi S4 (@$52,200) I have today doesn't have a backup camera, park assist or bluetooth iphone audio integration-- who, in the wide, wide world of sports would spend (or expect to spend) that kind of cheese and not get a backup camera, etc? If my maximum spending ability prevented me from having these "essentials," I assure you I would not look at a German, I'd go Asian or American and probably not be looking at the ELLPS class. Hyundai Genesis anyone?

Since when did "backup camera's" become essential equipment? I would say just 5 years ago they were still rarely seen. What the heck is park assist? I can park my own car. People did just fine without back up cameras for decades upon decades; it is far from essential. I got a red S4 without the back up cam and overpriced MMI/navigation, but I do have IPhone Bluetooth integration; perhaps the setup is different without MMI and you didn't know?

Cars are getting more and more expensive, and I believe it is because of all the non-essential "so-called essentials." The essentials are getting from A to B reliably. Being a ELPS category means that the L and P are important. My taste prefers my money go more towards P.

andres3

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

It's not just the Neon that was a bad model, take a look at Calibers, PT Cruisers, Darts (problems in Edmunds' own long term tester) Stratus', Cirrus', Pacifica's, and more.

Hence Chrysler still lives in the basement of CR's reliability rankings (including more recent models/renamed old models); the more you think things have changed, the more they really remain the same.

andres3

robr2 said:

nyccarguy said:

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

Every single manufacturer has gone through significant changes (for better or worse) since the mid-90's when you owned your Neon. In fact, if things hadn't changed I'd be right there with you. My first car was a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT (bought brand new) which had a myriad of problems that concluded with the loeb of the camshaft (2nd from the top) completely wearing down at 61K miles. For years I swore off GM and Domestics in general. I'm sure I even vowed at one point (most likely on these boards) to never set foot in a D3 dealership again. Durability and reliability have increased tremendously across the board. Horsepower numbers are up (and so is weight). Significant weight loss seems to be the next trend. Each manufacturer does make a performance oriented car that given proper modifications will perform very well at the track. There are very few cars out there that are "no compromise."

The part that bugs me the most is that it wasn't even his car. It was his parents'. I figure his grandkids will be the ones to give up the grudge.

First of all, it was a shared car; meaning it wasn't just my Parents'. It was shared ownership. Second of all, have things more than name changes really changed? Neon = PT Cruiser = Caliber = Dart. Yes, lots of name changes, but have the head gaskets and AC compressors improved? Yes, they have more than 3 automatic gears now, but has reliability increased? They still sit at the bottom of any credible source on reliability.

andres3

graphicguy said:

Heck...if I can get over my Cadillac aversion, anyone can get over whatever prejudice with any car model/company.

The jury is still out with your Cadillac though. Let's see if your aversion returns by the time you get to say.... 65,000 miles. Again, Edmunds' long term testers just a few years ago from Cadillac had parts flying/falling off, rattling, coming apart, and generally unacceptable problems.

andres3

I think the Neon experience was so bad that I have no patience left in this lifetime for an unreliable car. Another unreliable car would quickly vanish from my possession. I am risk averse to unreliable possibilities.

Honda and Audi were not perfect experiences for me, but the fact they stood behind their product and either paid for repairs or reimbursed me for repairs (even if technically after warranty period) went a long way towards gaining my trust.

andres3

m6user said:

Nicer interior, better warranty, dealer experience and luxury brand. For a young guy, pulling up to pick up your date in an Audi versus a Vdub could be a game changer. LOL.

I would add more refined sport suspension, possibly better summer tires (not sure on that one; check to see if they are the same size tire too), more quality control which leads to far better reliability, durability, less warranty hassles, far improved interior, improved materials AND fit & finish/build quality, longer warranty? free loaners if you need a warranty trip, more std. equipment (?), better seats, improved looks (subjective), more color selection, more option choices, and different trim level configurations whereas the GLI is pretty much you get what you get.

A lot of my knowledge on this is from comparing the vast and varied superiorities of the '06 A3 to the same year GTI. Also back then you got free maintenance for 50K miles. I would say the '15 GTI has caught up to my old A3 in most ways.

I'm a classic example of purchasing an entry level luxury car, having a great experience, and moving from $30K for the A3 to nearly $55K (out the door) for the '14 S4. If I was an entry level buyer today, I'm not sure the current A3 would do it for me. I feel the '06 A3 was a better value and car for the time. Essentially, it has been 9 years and the entry level A3 is inferior to my '06 A3 in a lot of ways, plus costing more. The 2.0T A3 Quattro is the right "entry" level car, but still, I prefer the '06 interior.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

To each his own I guess is the final say. I had the opportunity to drive a RWD vs AWD Porsche back to back and I thought the AWD car pushed a lot in the turns. It's more work. For driving pleasure I would have chosen the RWD. Snow is not an issue where I live, so it's hard to justify the weight and expense of AWD in this zip code. The reason I bought a used 4WD truck was for flooding conditions--i.e., the ground clearance. I guess some AWD like Subaru do lift the car, which is nice--but my friend's Mercedes AWD doesn't seem to have any more ground clearance than normal. He doesn't seem to care or notice the AWD--it just came that way.

I notice the benefits of AWD every time I stomp on it from a traffic light, or stomp on it making a 90 degree turn from a stop which would cause over steer in RWD and excessive wheel spin in FWD. I especially notice the same things when it's raining or the pavement is wet.

At the track I noticed I had developed some bad habits though, as it's possible to under steer and push the S4 around a turn, and still be able to rotate the car with the rear diff at the same time. Essentially you are forcing the car around the turn and pushing the front tires where you want to go even though they are not helping you accelerate. Not the fastest way to drive, and hard on the front tires. You can get away with it though, as the car is very forgiving to a heavy right foot.

graphicguy

andres3 said:

I think the Neon experience was so bad that I have no patience left in this lifetime for an unreliable car. Another unreliable car would quickly vanish from my possession. I am risk averse to unreliable possibilities.

Honda and Audi were not perfect experiences for me, but the fact they stood behind their product and either paid for repairs or reimbursed me for repairs (even if technically after warranty period) went a long way towards gaining my trust.

I think that's why I'm anti-Audi right now. If they wouldn't have acted like posteriors, stepped up and taken care of the problems that they admitted to having, instead of jerking me around, they'd be on my shopping list.

So far, Cadillac has treated me as well/better as any other brand I've ever owned, that includes BMW, Audi, and Acura.

The CTS feels so solid, I can't quite see any parts flying off.

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

My 2009 A4 Prestige with sport package and my 2005 A6 -- BOTH of THEM -- had sport seats (optional, yes). I returned the car to the dealer and at that exact moment in time, the sales team was sans customers, so I asked (thankful my opinion pertaining to the horrible "bucket" seats would not be overheard by any other customers), "Can I order sport seats on a new A6 with the sport package?" And, "Can I order sport seats through the Audi Exclusive channel?"

The S6 (which is another $20,000) can have sport seats, the A6, no matter how optioned cannot.

What a world, what a world. I'm melting, melting.

Mark, BMW allows people to add options that are not normally available on US cars, but this has to get the blessing of BMWNA, example, if you order a 328i Luxury Line, you can get the sport seats for $500. Infact many CA are not aware of this, I just found out that Tanszanite Blue Metallic ( an M car color) can be had on any BMW, for $1950, Rick and I both really like the color, I would assume if we got that color on the 328i GT it would be the only one in the US. What I was getting at, was, contact Audi NA and see if getting sport seats are allowed and if Audi will give you the blessing on this option. Doesn't hurt to ask.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

I'd go further - the base seats are proof that majority of 3-series and 4-series buyers are there for the badge. I said repeatedly to salesmen that those seats are deal breakers to me. many of them totally agree that those standard seats are true disgrace. I'll admit that F3x standard seats are improved over E9x standard seats, but still way in a different neighborhood of off what a "sports sedan" should have as standard. I simply can't believe they have been selling this crap for this long with no signs of change. What's worse - you can't even get their sports seats on "Luxury" line, even as a stand-alone option. That is truly pathetic. Now I hear Audi has gone same way? The world is ending, no doubt.

I'll take it even further, the Sport seats on the F30 cars are wider and the bolsters aren't as big as on the E90 cars or E46 cars. I think people need to remember is, not everybody tracks their cars, so sport seats aren't needed. Dino, how many times as your wagon seen the track or driven to the point in which those Sport Seats where really needed?

dino001

You obviously never sat in them. Track has nothing to do with it. Good bolstering and correct profile are useful everywhere. I'm not talking about some supersporty Recaros - just decent bottom cushion with extended thigh support (which is probably my most favorite thing about this particular seat) and well-profiled back cushions keeping you in place as you turn the car on signals at any speeds with the back profile having adjustable lumbar support that doesn't kill your back after 200 miles.

I have had cars with great seat profiles for over 10 years no - 2003 WRX, 2008 STI and 2012 328 with Sport Package. Bad seat profile is a deal breaker for me, period.

BTW - I'm quite heavy, so my bottom and back "fill" those seats perfectly. It means I'm just perfect size to take full advantage of the bolstering . Perhaps that's the reason I like them so much.

andres3

graphicguy said:

andres3 said:

I think the Neon experience was so bad that I have no patience left in this lifetime for an unreliable car. Another unreliable car would quickly vanish from my possession. I am risk averse to unreliable possibilities.

Honda and Audi were not perfect experiences for me, but the fact they stood behind their product and either paid for repairs or reimbursed me for repairs (even if technically after warranty period) went a long way towards gaining my trust.

I think that's why I'm anti-Audi right now. If they wouldn't have acted like posteriors, stepped up and taken care of the problems that they admitted to having, instead of jerking me around, they'd be on my shopping list.

So far, Cadillac has treated me as well/better as any other brand I've ever owned, that includes BMW, Audi, and Acura.

The CTS feels so solid, I can't quite see any parts flying off.

There is no excuse for what Audi has apparently done to you, you should name names to Audi of America's customer service dept. and recommend pink slips for those people.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

You obviously never sat in them. Track has nothing to do with it. Good bolstering and correct profile are useful everywhere. I'm not talking about some supersporty Recaros - just decent bottom cushion with extended thigh support (which is probably my most favorite thing about this particular seat) and well-profiled back cushions keeping you in place as you turn the car on signals at any speeds with the back profile having adjustable lumbar support that doesn't kill your back after 200 miles.

I have had cars with great seat profiles for over 10 years no - 2003 WRX, 2008 STI and 2012 328 with Sport Package. Bad seat profile is a deal breaker for me, period.

BTW - I'm quite heavy, so my bottom and back "fill" those seats perfectly. It means I'm just perfect size to take full advantage of the bolstering . Perhaps that's the reason I like them so much.

Having spent some time in the sport seats of a E90 car, I liked my M Sport Seats in my 330 (E46) better, I wish BMW would allow the M car seats to be an option, those are true sport seats.

graphicguy

andres3 said:

graphicguy said:

andres3 said:

I think the Neon experience was so bad that I have no patience left in this lifetime for an unreliable car. Another unreliable car would quickly vanish from my possession. I am risk averse to unreliable possibilities.

Honda and Audi were not perfect experiences for me, but the fact they stood behind their product and either paid for repairs or reimbursed me for repairs (even if technically after warranty period) went a long way towards gaining my trust.

I think that's why I'm anti-Audi right now. If they wouldn't have acted like posteriors, stepped up and taken care of the problems that they admitted to having, instead of jerking me around, they'd be on my shopping list.

So far, Cadillac has treated me as well/better as any other brand I've ever owned, that includes BMW, Audi, and Acura.

The CTS feels so solid, I can't quite see any parts flying off.

There is no excuse for what Audi has apparently done to you, you should name names to Audi of America's customer service dept. and recommend pink slips for those people.

Not worth my time, nor my effort. Irony of ironies, the guy who was running Audi at the time I was having all the problems with the S4, is now the head honcho at Cadillac.

tlong

dino001 said:

You obviously never sat in them. Track has nothing to do with it. Good bolstering and correct profile are useful everywhere. I'm not talking about some supersporty Recaros - just decent bottom cushion with extended thigh support (which is probably my most favorite thing about this particular seat) and well-profiled back cushions keeping you in place as you turn the car on signals at any speeds with the back profile having adjustable lumbar support that doesn't kill your back after 200 miles.

I have had cars with great seat profiles for over 10 years no - 2003 WRX, 2008 STI and 2012 328 with Sport Package. Bad seat profile is a deal breaker for me, period.

BTW - I'm quite heavy, so my bottom and back "fill" those seats perfectly. It means I'm just perfect size to take full advantage of the bolstering . Perhaps that's the reason I like them so much.

This. I don't really want highly bolstered fully adjustable sport seats -- but I also don't want couch seats in my car. Audi is certainly failing here and it sounds like BMW is as well. Funny how years ago it was the high end cars with the good seats and the plebian cars with the flat seats. Seems like it has reversed.

dino001

Those 3-series sports seats are not highly bolstered. They ain't Recaros, if you know what I mean, nothing crazy. They are just well-bolstered, as opposed flat ones in the standard version. To me they should be standard, especially in a model that sells itself as "Ultimate Driving Machine".

robr2

andres3 said:

robr2 said:

nyccarguy said:

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

Every single manufacturer has gone through significant changes (for better or worse) since the mid-90's when you owned your Neon. In fact, if things hadn't changed I'd be right there with you. My first car was a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT (bought brand new) which had a myriad of problems that concluded with the loeb of the camshaft (2nd from the top) completely wearing down at 61K miles. For years I swore off GM and Domestics in general. I'm sure I even vowed at one point (most likely on these boards) to never set foot in a D3 dealership again. Durability and reliability have increased tremendously across the board. Horsepower numbers are up (and so is weight). Significant weight loss seems to be the next trend. Each manufacturer does make a performance oriented car that given proper modifications will perform very well at the track. There are very few cars out there that are "no compromise."

The part that bugs me the most is that it wasn't even his car. It was his parents'. I figure his grandkids will be the ones to give up the grudge.

First of all, it was a shared car; meaning it wasn't just my Parents'. It was shared ownership. Second of all, have things more than name changes really changed? Neon = PT Cruiser = Caliber = Dart. Yes, lots of name changes, but have the head gaskets and AC compressors improved? Yes, they have more than 3 automatic gears now, but has reliability increased? They still sit at the bottom of any credible source on reliability.

I have to ask - was it also shared expenses?

roadburner

dino001 said:

Those 3-series sports seats are not highly bolstered. They ain't Recaros, if you know what I mean, nothing crazy. They are just well-bolstered, as opposed flat ones in the standard version. To me they should be standard, especially in a model that sells itself as "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Exactly!

tlong

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

Those 3-series sports seats are not highly bolstered. They ain't Recaros, if you know what I mean, nothing crazy. They are just well-bolstered, as opposed flat ones in the standard version. To me they should be standard, especially in a model that sells itself as "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Exactly!

Agreed!

markcincinnati

The best seats I have ever had are in my current 2014 Audi S4; my wife's SQ5 seats are about 99% as good as my S4's, too -- before that, I enjoyed excellent seats in:

2009 A4 2.0T w/sport package
2005 A6 with optional sport seats
2005 X3 with optional sports seats
2001 A6 4.2 with optional sport seats
2000 A6 4.2 with optional sport seats
1997 A8 with sport seats and about a million adjustments
1996 S6 with the standard leather sport seats of the day
1986 5000S quattro with the optional sport seats (in wool)

We also had a 1988 325ix BMW with the optional sport package, which, oddly, did not include sport suspension, but everything else was sported up, including the front chairs (which were great) and the super nice steering wheel -- which could not be heated when you got the sport package?!?

Currently, an A6 can be sort of had with sport seats, but, as I noted previously they are called Individual Contour Seats -- they seem to be a cross between the standard A6 seats and my S4 seats, plus massage and ventilation -- but the bolsters are not quite as prominent as in the S4.

I'm with those of you who consider the seats a deal breaker if they aren't what I want.

Most of the above cars that had sport seats that were optional came with a maximum price of $1,000 and a normal price of $500 -- even adjusted for inflation, I can't figure out why not offer the options that people want -- IF YOU ALREADY market them in other geographies.

I wondered for years what the big deal was about NOT offering heated REAR seats -- the cost of the seat warmers is probably quite low and a $250 - $500 up charge seems like a no-brainer. Finally, with respect to Audi at least, heated rear seats are at least offered for an extra charge.

I signed onto the Audi Exclusive web page, and there are many optional choices for interior treatments that can be had -- yet, it is clear it is very difficult to order sportier seats via that exclusive program if they are not normally offered in your market. The Audi Exclusive program seems more like a decorating option than a functional one -- not that that is a bad thing.

While I am ranting, I really don't get why so many things are bundled together into one mid-four-figure "package" -- if all I want is a top-view camera, it appears I have to take automatic cruise control, w/stop and start, lane keeping assistance and pre-sense plus. Now, I'd gladly buy top view and pre-sense plus, but paying for lane assist and cruise control with full-stop, start capabilities does not, today at least, interest me.

My belief is that folks do things based on what is marketed to them within certain cost parms.

I am not keen on paying for a seat massage function, when all I am after is bolstered chairs in the first place, so, I am likely to pass on the expensive option, and, without that option, I am likely to pass on the car and HOPE that the next gen A4 line will amp up both the L and the P.

I hope and pray that the explanation for all this bundling isn't to reduce the cost of certifying the cars for sale in the US -- stranger things, I imagine, though.

andres3

robr2 said:

andres3 said:

robr2 said:

nyccarguy said:

roadburner said:

You need to get over your "I got screwed by a Neon" complex...

Every single manufacturer has gone through significant changes (for better or worse) since the mid-90's when you owned your Neon. In fact, if things hadn't changed I'd be right there with you. My first car was a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT (bought brand new) which had a myriad of problems that concluded with the loeb of the camshaft (2nd from the top) completely wearing down at 61K miles. For years I swore off GM and Domestics in general. I'm sure I even vowed at one point (most likely on these boards) to never set foot in a D3 dealership again. Durability and reliability have increased tremendously across the board. Horsepower numbers are up (and so is weight). Significant weight loss seems to be the next trend. Each manufacturer does make a performance oriented car that given proper modifications will perform very well at the track. There are very few cars out there that are "no compromise."

The part that bugs me the most is that it wasn't even his car. It was his parents'. I figure his grandkids will be the ones to give up the grudge.

First of all, it was a shared car; meaning it wasn't just my Parents'. It was shared ownership. Second of all, have things more than name changes really changed? Neon = PT Cruiser = Caliber = Dart. Yes, lots of name changes, but have the head gaskets and AC compressors improved? Yes, they have more than 3 automatic gears now, but has reliability increased? They still sit at the bottom of any credible source on reliability.

I have to ask - was it also shared expenses?

Yes, shared expenses. However, I drove it the most, and had my time wasted with 3 of the 4 tow truck trips it required in 65,000 miles. Time is money.

I also had to live with the exponentially increasing rattles after 36,000 miles, so by the time 60K miles hit, there were more rattles than a modern day super computer could count up to.